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6G Celicas Forums _ Engine/Transmission/Maintenance _ 3S-GE ACIS/Beams discussion

Posted by: delusionz Sep 13, 2008 - 11:05 PM

QUOTE (Rusty @ Aug 8, 2008 - 3:30 PM) *
thats alright

QUOTE
how would i go about modding my ACIS?

rather than tell you how to mod it heres a way how not to mod it smile.gif
http://toymods.net/forums/showthread.php?t=17827&page=2&highlight=ACIS

(also I recommend a new thread for 3SGE ACIS/Beams discussion)



I've been playing around with ACIS recently and I've discovered a few things about it,

The basics ... when the vacuum diaphragm pulls the throttles, the larger diameter in the corner of the inlet pipes open up (under the lid) for high rpm and when there is no vacuum to pull the throttles are free to return to the constricted low rpm position.

A few problems noted with ACIS:

1. When switching between high and low rpm modes, the vacuum diaphragm sometimes get stuck in the high rpm mode
2. The engage point is too late

First experiment was to see how the car behaved with the throttle pull lever tied up with cable ties as to lock the throttles in the high rpm position,

What I observed with the butt dyno was that under full throttle the rpm range where the car would "suddenly get up and go" was lower down, noticed in terms of road speed 65kph before, 55kph after (2nd gear) so in other words 5000-7000 was the get up and go range, without ACIS constriction in the intake the get up and go range was observed from 4000 to 7000.

No loss in acceleration was noticed from idle to 3000 under part throttle, but loss was noticed under full throttle, between 3000 and 4000 I couldn't tell either way in neither part throttle nor full throttle whether ACIS was better in low rpm or high rpm mode....

This suggests to me that 4000 is a better changeover point than 4800 for performance. 4800 is an rpm not reached by normal driving due to speed limits & gear selection thus ACIS seems to exist for the purpose of keeping intake noise down at legal road speeds rather than for improving low rpm torque as midrange torque takes a hit with this setup.

My proposed solution on how TO mod the ACIS, is to gutt the vacuum actuator system and replace it with a motorised cable pulling actuator triggered by a frequency switch relay at 4000 rpm the signal could be obtained by the ignitor right behind there.

Posted by: Rusty Sep 14, 2008 - 12:57 AM

ha sweet finally started a thread, I'd thought I'd start with some Infomation, yes I know there from wikipedia, but still gives a good explaination.

QUOTE (Wikipedia)
Acoustic Control Induction System, or ACIS, is an implementation of a Variable Length Intake Manifold system designed by Toyota.

Simply put, the ACIS system uses a single intake air control valve located in the intake to vary the length of the intake tract in order to optimize power and torque, as well as provide better fuel efficiency and reduce intake "roar".[1].

The ECU controls the position of the intake air control valve based on input signals from throttle angle and engine RPM. The vacuum switching valve (VSV) which controls the vacuum supply to the actuator is normally closed and passes vacuum to the actuator when it is energized by the ECU. By energizing the VSV vacuum is passed to the actuator, closing the air control valve. This effectively lengthens the intake manifold run. By de-energizing the VSV, vacuum to the actuator is blocked and trapped vacuum is bled off of the actuator diaphragm. Without vacuum, the air control valve opens, effectively shortening intake runner length[1]. This logic is the same as that used on the T-VIS system, the primary difference being that T-VIS actuates at a set RPM value whereas ACIS attempts to maintain a constant powerband by opening progressively.




Anyone who says that ACIS uses compression is WRONG or says it has a form of VVT is WRONG

QUOTE
Toyota Variable Induction System, or T-VIS, is a variable intake system designed by Toyota.

It improves the low-end torque of high-performance, small displacement four-stroke engines by changing the geometry of the intake manifold according to the engine rotation speed. The system uses two separate intake runners per cylinder, one being equipped with a butterfly valve that can either open or close the runner. All valves are attached to a common shaft which is rotated by a vacuum actuator outside the manifold.

The engine control unit allows vacuum into the actuator by powering a solenoid valve when the engine rotation speed is below 4200 rpm.Above this engine speed vacuum is cut off and a spring inside the actuator causes the butterfly valve to fully open. The theory behind the system is that in the lower speed band the velocity of the intake air can be improved because the intake runner cross section per cylinder is smaller. However, when the engine gains speed, the required air flow volume is more significant so the second runner is opened to improve the flow. With upgraded engines (more flow) you may want to have your T-VIS open earlier than stock because it begins to choke the airflow at a lower RPM, since the airflow per RPM is greater with upgraded turbos, intakes, and exhaust. There is now a T-VIS controller on the marketT-VIS controller.


QUOTE
VVT-i, or Variable Valve Timing with intelligence, is an automobile variable valve timing technology developed by Toyota, similar to the i-VTEC technology by Honda. The Toyota VVT-i system replaces the Toyota VVT offered starting in 1991 on the 4A-GE 20-Valve engine. The VVT system is a 2-stage hydraulically controlled cam phasing system.

VVT-i, introduced in 1996, varies the timing of the intake valves by adjusting the relationship between the camshaft drive (belt, scissor-gear or chain) and intake camshaft. Engine oil pressure is applied to an actuator to adjust the camshaft position. In 1998, "Dual" VVT-i (adjusts both intake and exhaust camshafts) was first introduced in the RS200 Altezza's 3S-GE engine. Dual VVT-i is also found in Toyota's new generation V6 engine, the 3.5L 2GR-FE V6. This engine can be found in the Avalon, RAV4, and Camry in the US, the Aurion in Australia, and various models in Japan, including the Celica. Dual VVT-i is also used in the Toyota Corolla (1.6 dual VVT-i 124bhp). Other Dual VVT-i engines include the 1.8L 2ZR-FE I4, used in Toyota's next generation of compact vehicles such as the Scion XD. It is also used in the 2JZ-GE and 2JZ-GTE engines used in the Lexus IS300 and in the Toyota Supra. By adjusting the valve timing engine start and stop occurs virtually unnoticeably at minimum compression. In addition fast heating of the catalytic converter to its light-off temperature is possible thereby reducing hydrocarbon emissions considerably. http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=MR63IrKHv7E&NR=1



QUOTE
In 1998, Toyota started offering a new technology, VVTL-i, which can alter valve lift (and duration) as well as valve timing. In the case of the 16 valve 2ZZ-GE, the engine has 2 camshafts, one operating intake valves and one operating exhaust valves. Each camshaft has two lobes per cylinder, one low rpm lobe and one high rpm, high lift, long duration lobe. Each cylinder has two intake valves and two exhaust valves. Each set of two valves are controlled by one rocker arm, which is operated by the camshaft. Each rocker arm has a slipper follower mounted to the rocker arm with a spring, allowing the slipper follower to move up and down with the high lobe without affecting the rocker arm. When the engine is operating below 6000 rpm, the low lobe is operating the rocker arm and thus the valves. When the engine is operating above 6000 rpm, the ECU activates an oil pressure switch which pushes a sliding pin under the slipper follower on each rocker arm. This in effect, switches to the high lobe causing high lift and longer duration.


Toyota has now ceased production of its VVTL-i engines for most markets, because the engine does not meet Euro IV specifications for emissions. As a result, some Toyota models have been discontinued... Celica

Posted by: delusionz Sep 14, 2008 - 6:38 AM

that is good information and makes things alot simpler to mod the ACIS, so instead of mechanically operating the ACIS throttles, I need to locate the vacuum solenoid valve and send my own power signals to it.

as for the claim that it attempts to maintain a constant power band, this is all fine and dandy if it were true, as noticed it gets stuck in the high rpm position alot even when coming to a complete stop and then starting again, flooring the pedal from a low speed in 2nd gear and listening to the full rpm range. Sometimes the vacuum will be pulling the acis throttles when the motor starts, looking in the engine bay, turn off the motor and turn it on again and it will be back in the low rpm position... these characteristics are surely not as intended, possibly due to having a different air filter setup, either way I'd say 4000 makes a better point to engage the short path.

the 2nd big power surge is still equally noticed as before at around 80kph in 2nd gear whether the short path is forced or not.

Posted by: presure2 Sep 14, 2008 - 9:08 AM

IMO the best way to find the "switching" point would be much like the 3sgte guys do the tvis opening thing.

back to back dyno runs, one with it open, one with it closed.
the point where the 2 runs overlap is the ideal switching point.

thread moved.

Posted by: Rusty Sep 19, 2008 - 1:28 AM

ah here's the information I was thinking of previously: http://www.turbomr2.com/MR2/Reference/TVIS/TVIS.htm


191.23 Nm / 4800 rpm (almost 100Nm a litre) & the switch over is 5100rpm or 5200rpm, also I'm not 100% sure about this but during the switch over it advances timing, by a ECM (electric control module) or ECU?, I like your idea about taking 2 dyno runs (open and closed)

and finally (thanks to the guys from CelicaTech) http://www.celicatech.com/koreanjoey/Modifying%2520the%25203SG%2520non-turbo%2520engine.pdf biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

Posted by: delusionz Sep 29, 2008 - 6:39 AM

ACIS Modification project
-------------------------------

Parts required:

A spare vacuum solenoid valve, some length of automotive wire, and this Jaycar kit (Frequency Relay Switch) ---

http://www.jaycar.co.nz/productView.asp?ID=KC5378&CATID=&keywords=frequency+switch&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&priceMin=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=

Soooooo.... The standard engage point for ACIS is roughly 4800 RPM, the point where it goes niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiBWARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR, in 2nd gear and the tachometer lunges past the 5k mark (65kph) and the car gains speed as though the pedal wasnt floored before but now it is....

Now that my custom ACIS RPM-adjustable controller project is complete, I set out to test it out at a tiny bit over 4k... And the results are amazing.... the same speed jump at the 5k mark is observed at the 4k mark (52kph)..........

I've recorded a video which I think demonstrates this (not dyno proof, but judge for yourself)...

Sorry about the first 30 seconds of engine braking, the rest of it is a motorway run testing out the 4k engage point with 2nd and 4th gears.... 2nd gear 4k is 55kph, 4th gear 4k is 110kph

http://s358.photobucket.com/albums/oo23/nzcelica/SS-III/Tech/?action=view&current=Video007.flv

notice the speed jumps at .... (with the video timer counting down) -00:45s. -00:27s, -00:17s

Posted by: Cuts_the_Pilot Sep 29, 2008 - 8:25 PM

i say try another vid but go in a straight line, the 45 sec one you can hear a change but not see it because the camera is looking at the fuel guage.

and start from say 3 grand in 3rd, then let it rev right out to 6 grand or so, so we get a good idea how fast the needle was moving before acis (just kicked in yo tongue.gif) and after it was open.


edit: did see the speed jump, but i say go again, and in straight line.

Posted by: Rusty Sep 29, 2008 - 11:00 PM

QUOTE
i say try another vid but go in a straight line, the 45 sec one you can hear a change but not see it because the camera is looking at the fuel guage.
...lol not being mean or anything, but that sound quite funny.



looks really impressive and sounds even better, but your not using foot-tech aswell are you?

and I say go for a dyno for asap, because I'd expect to see a big gain where i see a dip in the power curve (which I thing is about 5,000rpm anyway)

Posted by: delusionz Sep 30, 2008 - 2:41 AM

yeah, i had the pedal pressed as hard as i could around the changeover, I tried again with 3800 RPM engage point and between 4k and 4.5k it became slow and sounded ****... sounded like low rpm flooring, I managed to fine tune it today (stupid tiny potentiometers) to 4300 RPM and its even better, also changed that hideous light bulb for a discreet blue led, it might become permanent actually...

I'm pretty keen for a before and after dyno, how much did yours cost rusty?

Posted by: parriehunter Sep 30, 2008 - 2:51 AM

I am real interested in seeing two dyno runs with your set up.

If it works you should post up your full set up so people like me can copy smile.gif.

Posted by: Rusty Oct 1, 2008 - 12:28 AM

well I got mine done at lodge auto for $60 but we entered as a group and got a slight discount

Posted by: delusionz Oct 1, 2008 - 5:14 AM

Hmmm 4300 is very smooth to changeover, no jump in speed, I got it right on the 4000 mark now and it kicks in yo tongue.gif

This project still needs some more work though, especially with the vacuum routing, The throttles are flicking open and then closed and then is subject to the factory VSV's opening and closing as I've simply spliced into the standard setup (the main reason for doing so was to force the throttles closed at low rpm as they seemed happy to stay open from idle giving me occasional sluggish low rpm acceleration), Perhaps unplugging from the standard VSV and rejoining with a hose coupling would smooth out the irateness of my ECU without it erroring.

I also need to splice onto a permanent RPM signal place, I'm just plugged into the diagnostic box at the moment, I'm sure the dyno guys will want to use the diagnostic plug...

Posted by: Rusty Jun 8, 2009 - 3:41 AM

Right there has been some recent discussion lately about the 3S-GE so I thought I'd do my bit and best inform people with what information I know.

I've already stated this in another topic but I'll add it here now anyway

QUOTE
Camshaft Sizes
2. Gen 3S-GE
In: 244deg, 8.5mm lift (timing 7/57) Valve diameter: 33.5mm
Ex: 244deg, 8.5mm lift (timing 57/7) Valve diameter: 29.0mm

2. Gen 3S-GTE
In: 236deg, 8.2mm lift (timing 8/ ) Valve diameter: 33.5mm
Ex: 236deg, 8.2mm lift (timing 56/0) Valve diameter 29.0mm


3. Gen 3S-GE A/T
In: 240deg, 8.7mm lift (timing 7/53) Valve diameter: 33.5mm
Ex: 240deg, 8.2mm lift (timing 53/7) Valve diameter: 29.0mm

3. Gen 3S-GE M/T
In: 252deg, 9.8mm lift (timing 7/65) Valve diameter: 33.5mm
Ex: 240deg, 8.2mm lift (timing 53/7) Valve diameter: 29.0mm


3 Gen 3S-GTE
In: 240deg, 8.7mm lift (timing 7/53) Valve diameter: 33.5mm
Ex: 236deg, 8.2mm lift (timing 50/6) Valve diameter: 29.0mm


4 Gen BEAMS Redtop 3S-GE
IN: 256deg, 10.5mm lift (timing /) Valve diameter: 34.5mm
EX: 244deg, 9.2mm lift (timing /) Valve diameter: 29.5mm

4 Gen 3S-GTE
IN: deg, .mm lift (timing /) Valve diameter: .mm
EX: deg, .mm lift (timing /) Valve diameter: .mm

**please note no newer gen camshaft are interchangeable with gen 1 3S engines (ie gen1 with gen3 cams = no. however gen1 3sgte with gen1 3sge = yes)


QUOTE
Compression
2 Gen 3SGTE
8.8:1

3 Gen 3SGE A/T
10.3:1

3 Gen 3SGE M/T
10.3:1

3 Gen 3SGTE M/T
8.5:1

4 Gen (RED BEAMS) 3SGE A/T
11:1

4 Gen (RED BEAMS) 3SGE M/T
11:1



now 3.gen 3sge uses MAP while the 4.genR 3SGE uses MAF this http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=67607 has some good info relating to that.

that'll do for now more tomorrow

**please note all figures above are based on Japanese celica models**

here's something to think over, which piston is which gen 3S-GE?

Posted by: 3WayStunna Jun 8, 2009 - 10:06 AM

I love games!! I take it the clean piston is from a 3rd gen. Dirty one is from the 4th gen...

Posted by: DEATH Jun 8, 2009 - 10:27 AM

My guess is the dometop ones on the left are BEAMs pistons due to the increased compression

Posted by: Rusty Jun 8, 2009 - 12:27 PM

tongue.gif the dirty one is the gen 3, the clean one is a BEAMS piston


Posted by: DEATH Jun 8, 2009 - 1:27 PM

LOL - If you call THOSE dirty pistons you should see the ones I pulled from my '93 3S-GTE tongue.gif

Posted by: Rusty Jun 9, 2009 - 2:01 AM

something form wiki

QUOTE
These are common to all 3S-G engines.
Capacity 1,998 cc (121.93 cu in)
Bore x Stroke 86 mm (3.39 in) x 86 mm (3.39 in)
Intake Valve Diameter 33.5 mm (1.32 in)
Exhaust Valve Diameter 29.0 mm (1.14 in)
Included Valve Angle 44.5 °



right onto the info for 3gen and 4gen 3S-GE engines

The Sump
QUOTE
Gen3
The sump is 2 pieces, with a large alloy part bolted to the block & a very small pressed steel piece below it.
Gen4
Same as Gen 3.


Oil Filter Location
QUOTE
Gen3
The oil filter is down on the alloy intermediate sump.
Gen4
Same as Gen 3.


Cyclinder Head
QUOTE
Gen3
The cylinder head has the valve clearance shims under the bucket.
Gen4
The cylinder head is Gen 3 type but has variable cam timing on the inlet only. The cam cover is red & has the word “beams” in silver script.






Posted by: BonzaiCelica Jun 9, 2009 - 11:59 AM

so it sounds as if most of internals from 3rd and 4th gen 3sge are the same. Is the vvti what adds ahd 20 hp difference between the motors???

Posted by: Rusty Jun 9, 2009 - 12:45 PM

its also the increase in compression (from 10.3 to 11) and the ECU, I would think

Posted by: Rusty Jun 10, 2009 - 3:01 AM

QUOTE
Redtop Specifications

VVT-I = Variable Valve Timing - Intelligent

Intake cam is VVT-I enabled

Aerodynamic volume displacement (cc) = 1998

Piston bore vs stroke (mm×mm) = 86.0×86.0

Compression ratio = 11:1

Rod pin diameter = 22mm

Rod big end bore = 51mm

Rod big end width = 21mm

Rod lendth to center = 138mm

The highest output (ps/rpm) = 200/7,000

Largest torque (kg-m/rpm) = 21.0/6,000

Injector size = 315cc

Cylinder head chamber compression = 33-34cc

Buckets/lifters = 31mm

Intake Valve Diameter: 34.5mm

Exhaust Valve Diameter: 29.5mm





(inside the intake manifold past the TB)




someone has made 240whp (but thats with a blacktop, not a redtop)

thats almost as far as I get with the BEAMS 3S-GE info (there is a repair manual floating around but costs $100, and since I dont have that engine I dont really need it) onto the 3gen, though some info still applies

Posted by: Rusty Jun 13, 2009 - 2:01 AM

this from Toyota: The 3rd Generation 3S-GE:

QUOTE
The 3S-GE is an in-line 4 cylinder engine with the cylinders numbered 1-2-3-4 from the front. The cranshaft is supported by 5 bearings inside the crankcase. These bearings are made out of alumium alloy.
The crankcase is integrated with 8 weights for balance. Oil holes are placed inthe centre of the crankshaft to supply oil to the connecting rods, pistons and other components.
The ignition order is 1-3-4-2. The cylinder head is made of of [haha they made a typo] an aluminum alloy, with a cross flow type intake and exhaust layout with a pent roof type combustion chambers. The spark plugs are located in the centre of the combustion chamber.
The intake manifold has 4 independent long ports and utilises the intertial supercharging effect to improve engine tourque at low and mudium speeds.
Both the intake and the exhaust camshafts are driven by a single timing belt. The cam journal is supported at 5 places between the valve lifters of each cylinder and on the front end of the cylinder head. Lubrication of the cam journal and cams is accomplished by oil being supplied through the oil port in the centre of the camshaft.
Adjusting of the valve clearance is done by means of an inner shim type system, in which valves adjusting shims are located below the valve lifters. To replace the shims, the camshafts must be be removed.
Pistons are made of high temperature - resistant aluminum alloy, and a depression is built into the piston head to prevent interface with the valves.
Piston pins are the full-floating type, with the pins fastened to neither the piston boss nor the connecting rod. Instead, snap rings are fitted on both end of the pins, preventing the pins from falling out.
The No.1 compression ring is made of stainless steel and the No.2 compression ring is made of cast iron. The oil ring is made out of stainless steel. The outer diameter of each piston ring is slightly larger than the diameter of the piston and the flexibility of the rings allow the to hug the cylinder walls when they are mounted to the piston. Compression rings No.1 and No.2 work to prevent gas leakage from the cylinder and the oil ring works to scrape oil off the cylinder walls to prevent it from entering the combustion chambers.
The cast iron cylinder block has 4 cylinders which are approximattly twice the length of the piston stroke. The top of each cylinder is closed off by the cylinder head and the lower end of the cylinders become the crankcase, in which the cranksaft is installed. In addition, the cylinder contains a wet jacket, through which coolant is pumped to cool the cylinders.
The No.1 and No.2 oil pans are bolted onto the bottom of the cylinder block. The No.1 oil pan is made of alumimum alloy. The No.2 is an oil reservoir made of pressed steel. The dividing plate also prevents the oil from shifting away from the oil pump suction pipe when the vehicle is stopped suddenly.



Maintance
Oil change: takes 4.5L W/ oil filter change or 5.2L from Dry fill

Compression 1,324 KPA (192psi +) Minimum 1,079KPA (156psi)


more later

Posted by: BonzaiCelica Jul 22, 2009 - 4:37 PM

hey Rusty, you said that the 3rd gen 3sge has more tuning capabilities than the 4th gen.

about the cams. i was looking at the 294 cam grind that presure2 did to his 5sfe. What upgradable cams are their for the 4th gen 3sge beams?

Posted by: azian_advanced Jul 22, 2009 - 11:51 PM

not sure if there are any upgradeable camshafts for the beams 3sge but you can always have them sent out for a weld & regrind if you're out of options.

Posted by: Rusty Jul 23, 2009 - 1:49 AM

what you not happy with the BEAMS power?biggrin.gif:D
there are a few, depends if you want the vvti operative or not?

the 294 cams your talking about...

QUOTE (Celicatech)
The 294 grind by webcams is just a reference number they use, not the actual duration. The actual duration at 0.050" is 218 degrees, so they are a really mild cam.


I dont know about regrinds due to the vvti system, but something you can look into.

anyway if you do go inoperative vvti, you might want to look at your head, the blacktop BEAMS has VVT-i oil control hole, in the head for the vvti, I'm not sure if the redtop has it or not, but apperenlty you have to bung it up.
from the TRD website http://www.trdparts.jp/english/parts_engine-3s-ge.html

Posted by: BonzaiCelica Jul 23, 2009 - 2:03 AM

Umm the vvt-i only applies to the intake manifold on the 3sge beams redtop. if you change cams on the altezza's 3sge beams engine. that will affect the vvti becuase blacktop beams has vvt-i on intake and exhaust cams.

but since there is not much mods for the redtop beams, grinding cams or getting performance ones is something i was thinking about.

Posted by: Rusty Jul 23, 2009 - 6:40 PM

QUOTE
Umm the vvt-i only applies to the intake manifold on the 3sge beams redtop. if you change cams on the altezza's 3sge beams engine. that will affect the vvti becuase blacktop beams has vvt-i on intake and exhaust cams.

what are you on about?

yea those where the cams I was on about, but I cant find a website for them.

Posted by: BonzaiCelica Jul 24, 2009 - 1:21 AM

that the cams do not effect the vvt-i on the beams redtop becuase the vvt-i is on the intake manifold.

those are customs parts i tried searching gbooth on bigpond.net.au but i couldnt find him. Ill just post something on the website to see if i can get some prices and hp/ torque numbers with those mods that are listed on that page.

QUOTE (Rusty @ Jul 23, 2009 - 1:49 AM) *
what you not happy with the BEAMS power?biggrin.gif:D


No im happy with the power of the beams, especially considering that im coming from a slow 7afe engine, so it will be a nice upgrade . I just want the most power out i can get out of the engine! And if all works out with me finding a engine clip in 2 years from now, i really want to race an integra type-r on the track and quarter mile biggrin.gif

im looking for about 80 whp gain with beams swap....

Posted by: delusionz Aug 13, 2009 - 2:37 PM

QUOTE
3.gen 3SGE M/T
In: 252deg, 9.8mm lift (timing 7/65)
Ex: 240deg, 8.2mm lift (timing 53/7)

3.gen 3SGTE
In: 240deg, 8.7mm lift (timing 7/53)
Ex: 236deg, 8.2mm lift (timing 50/6)


Why?


QUOTE
Compression
2. gen 3SGTE
8.8:1

3.gen 3SGTE M/T
8.5:1


Why?

Posted by: Edophus Aug 13, 2009 - 2:49 PM

QUOTE (Rusty @ Jun 9, 2009 - 3:01 AM) *
Cyclinder Head
QUOTE
Gen3
The cylinder head has the valve clearance shims under the bucket.
Gen4
The cylinder head is Gen 3 type but has variable cam timing on the inlet only. The cam cover is red & has the word “beams” in silver script.



thats not true, the gen 4 is not a gen4 type with variable cam timing, its a completely different head, nothing between them is compatible, the cam angle is different, the conbustion chamber is completely different , the valves in the beams are bigger as are the buckets. I have one sitting here in bits if an illustration is needed.

There are tuning options for the redtop, i see the name gbooth mentioned, he is the guy to talk to, you can get hold of him through the beams redtop forum and he will supply you with anything you need to tune a redtop or blacktop beams. Cams are not compatible between the red and blacktop though. Its well worth retaining the vvti when tuning it aswell. Theres a 240whp redtop in a gen 5 celica that mr booth built, peak power is at 8600rpm biggrin.gif . Theres a lot to be gained from just an aftermarket ecu aswell, my freinds mr2 is putting out 183bhp@7000rpm at the wheels with just intake + decat and ecu.

Posted by: 2bcelica Aug 15, 2009 - 8:18 AM

Found this - not sure if its already been found - but just thought I'd share.

Not sure how much different in extra HP if any from the OEM - but it looks nic. Price is expensive too.

Aftermarket Header

http://www.rhdjapan.com/jdm-low/Fujitsubo-Super-EX-Header-Exhaust-Manifold-ST202-Celica-60509#

Posted by: Edophus Aug 15, 2009 - 8:33 AM

QUOTE (2bcelica @ Aug 15, 2009 - 9:18 AM) *
Found this - not sure if its already been found - but just thought I'd share.

Not sure how much different in extra HP if any from the OEM - but it looks nic. Price is expensive too.

Aftermarket Header

http://www.rhdjapan.com/jdm-low/Fujitsubo-Super-EX-Header-Exhaust-Manifold-ST202-Celica-60509#



sorry 2bcelica but thats for the pre beams ss3, you can tell because the flange where it meets the head is very different, as the port spacing and shape is tottally different, as is the bolt pattern, its a real pita to find a manifold for the beams, i think the only one is the phoenix power unless you go custom. That fujitsubo manifold i think would fit any gen 3 3s-ge smile.gif

Posted by: 2bcelica Aug 15, 2009 - 8:38 AM

QUOTE (Edophus @ Aug 15, 2009 - 2:33 PM) *
QUOTE (2bcelica @ Aug 15, 2009 - 9:18 AM) *
Found this - not sure if its already been found - but just thought I'd share.

Not sure how much different in extra HP if any from the OEM - but it looks nic. Price is expensive too.

Aftermarket Header

http://www.rhdjapan.com/jdm-low/Fujitsubo-Super-EX-Header-Exhaust-Manifold-ST202-Celica-60509#



sorry 2bcelica but thats for the pre beams ss3, you can tell because the flange where it meets the head is very different, as the port spacing and shape is tottally different, as is the bolt pattern, its a real pita to find a manifold for the beams, i think the only one is the phoenix power unless you go custom. That fujitsubo manifold i think would fit any gen 3 3s-ge smile.gif



darn it -

Posted by: Rusty Aug 16, 2009 - 2:39 AM

QUOTE
thats not true, the gen 4 is not a gen4 type with variable cam timing, its a completely different head, nothing between them is compatible, the cam angle is different, the conbustion chamber is completely different , the valves in the beams are bigger as are the buckets. I have one sitting here in bits if an illustration is needed.

There are tuning options for the redtop, i see the name gbooth mentioned, he is the guy to talk to, you can get hold of him through the beams redtop forum and he will supply you with anything you need to tune a redtop or blacktop beams. Cams are not compatible between the red and blacktop though. Its well worth retaining the vvti when tuning it aswell. Theres a 240whp redtop in a gen 5 celica that mr booth built, peak power is at 8600rpm biggrin.gif . Theres a lot to be gained from just an aftermarket ecu aswell, my freinds mr2 is putting out 183bhp@7000rpm at the wheels with just intake + decat and ecu.


just wondering if you ment "thats not true, the gen 4 is not a gen3 type with variable cam timing"
I know what your saying, (its just not a gen 3 head painted red) yes it is differnet, but I think what they were simply trying to say was its similar to the 3gen but close up there are quite a few difference as you point out.

by all means post up pics really need more info on here, as there isn't too much floating around, (I can hopfully find the 3gen sizes etc to compare) one thing I really would like to know are the camshaft sizes (duration and lift)
and if you have any more info on the redtop beams ive missed please post it up smile.gif


delusionz im not to sure, NA require it as this is how they make their power (which is why a 3gen can run up to +300deg cams)

Posted by: delusionz Aug 16, 2009 - 3:50 AM

Wonder if the GE would make a better head to swap to the GTE engine... and also give some low end torque back to the GE engine?

Or maybe just the intake camshafts?

Posted by: Cuts_the_Pilot Aug 16, 2009 - 4:38 AM

QUOTE (delusionz @ Aug 16, 2009 - 2:50 AM) *
Wonder if the GE would make a better head to swap to the GTE engine... and also give some low end torque back to the GE engine?

Or maybe just the intake camshafts?



better off spending your money on your head, cams bigger valves etc.

Posted by: Edophus Aug 16, 2009 - 6:13 AM

QUOTE (Rusty @ Aug 16, 2009 - 3:39 AM) *
just wondering if you ment "thats not true, the gen 4 is not a gen3 type with variable cam timing"
I know what your saying, (its just not a gen 3 head painted red) yes it is differnet, but I think what they were simply trying to say was its similar to the 3gen but close up there are quite a few difference as you point out.

by all means post up pics really need more info on here, as there isn't too much floating around, (I can hopfully find the 3gen sizes etc to compare) one thing I really would like to know are the camshaft sizes (duration and lift)
and if you have any more info on the redtop beams ive missed please post it up smile.gif


delusionz im not to sure, NA require it as this is how they make their power (which is why a 3gen can run up to +300deg cams)


yeah sorry i wasnt having a go at anyone, i'm really not like that its hard sometimes to not sound like that on a forum, i spend a lot of time correcting information about the beams laugh.gif There is of course many similarities between the gen3/4 as in the bucket setup etc

The head i have here is actually from a blacktop beams, but they are the same casting, the only difference being the blacktop has some extra machining done in a couple of spots one of which is the exhaust side vvti solenoid, and the other difference is the machining on the last cam journal on the intake side, both of which is just left undrilled on the redtop, maybe if someone has a gen 3 head we can compare the differences. The only other head i have here is a gen 2 3s-gte which maybe someone is interested in comparing, if so let me know.

Here is a link to some of the tuning parts available, those are the best cams you can get for the redtop, throw out any idea's of using cams similar to those used in the gen3 or other 3s engines as the vvti makes for a very different animal, and you cant use blacktop cams.
http://www.beams-redtop.com/redmods.htm

Gen 4 3S-GE (Redtop) :
Power - 200ps (197bhp) @ 7000rpm
Torque - 21kg-m (152ft.lb) @ 6000rpm
compression ratio - 11:1
Cam duration (IN/EX) - 256°/244° ( timing is -2~43/78~33 thats the vvti range)
Cam lift (IN/EX) - 10.5mm/9.2mm (53/11)
Valve diameter (IN/EX) - 34.5mm/29.5mm
Throttle body diameter - 65mm
Injector size - 340cc (going by the book, flow testing puts them at 315cc)
Notes - VVTI

top of the head - i think overall it is a lot narrower because of the valve angle.


Intake side.


Exhaust side.


Underside.


another shot of the underside, the combustion chambers are about 20cc smaller than those of the previous gens


if you want more pics let me know, the rest of the head is sitting in a box.

Posted by: Rusty Aug 16, 2009 - 7:06 PM

QUOTE
yeah sorry i wasnt having a go at anyone, i'm really not like that its hard sometimes to not sound like that on a forum, i spend a lot of time correcting information about the beams laugh.gif There is of course many similarities between the gen3/4 as in the bucket setup etc

nah your alright, I know what you mean when you say stuff, the way people interpret what peple say can be different on a forum.

QUOTE
Gen 4 3S-GE (Redtop) :
Power - 200ps (197bhp) @ 7000rpm
Torque - 21kg-m (152ft.lb) @ 6000rpm
compression ratio - 11:1
Cam duration (IN/EX) - 256°/244°
Cam lift (IN/EX) - 10.5mm/9.2mm
Valve diameter (IN/EX) - 34.5mm/29.5mm
Throttle body diameter - 65mm
Injector size - 340cc (going by the book, flow testing puts them at 315cc)
Notes - VVTI

awesome thanks for the specs I was missing, I'll add those to previous info so we dont confuse anyone.

QUOTE
3.gen 3SGE M/T
In: 252deg, 9.8mm lift (timing 7/65)
Ex: 240deg, 8.2mm lift (timing 53/7)
compression 10.3:1
4.gen 3SGE M/T
In: 256deg, 10.5mm lift
Ex: 244deg, 9.2mm lift
compression 11:1

only a slight increase between them, but that would explain the 19BHP difference



http://www.trdparts.jp/english/parts_engine-3s-ge.html
that one off hole (oil hole) inbetween cylinder 1 & 2 is for controling vvti right on the blacktop? same on the redtop or is it that extra machinering your talking about?


Posted by: Edophus Aug 17, 2009 - 5:18 AM

QUOTE (Rusty @ Aug 16, 2009 - 8:06 PM) *
that one off hole (oil hole) inbetween cylinder 1 & 2 is for controling vvti right on the blacktop? same on the redtop or is it that extra machinering your talking about?


thats there on both, i assume on the blacktop it just feeds both solenoids, whilst on the redtop just feeds the one. The extra machining i'll highlight on those pics at some point but busy at work right now!

Posted by: Rusty Aug 18, 2009 - 2:14 AM

yea i thought it'll be the same. right onto the tuff question how many degrees does it advance & retard(on blacktop)?

Posted by: BonzaiCelica Aug 19, 2009 - 11:50 PM

QUOTE (Rusty @ Jun 8, 2009 - 12:27 PM) *
tongue.gif the dirty one is the gen 3, the clean one is a BEAMS piston



BTW this is a blacktop beams engine from the Altezza

Posted by: BonzaiCelica Aug 20, 2009 - 12:13 AM

ok so i gathered some info from the beams redtop forums. all prices are American Dollars.

Total for Individual Throttle Bodies $2,226.42 (this includes center pull linkage, tps, gasket, bolts etc.)


Cast Throttle Bodies

Sizes offered in 45, 48, and 50mm


Custom Independent Throttle Body Adapter
Offered in 45mm, 48mm, and 50mm
Made by TRD



Pistons, Size = 86mm, 86.5mm, and 87mm


Compression Ratio = 12.8:1 can be ran best with 98 RON = 93 Octane Fuel or 13.8:1 can be ran best at 100 RON = 94 octane Fuel
Rings Included
Wrist Pins Included


Rod and Rod Bolts $1236.90
8mm longer than Standard Rods
Rod Ratio = 1.7
ARP Rod Bolts included


Set of 4 Inlet Billet Cam $1030.75, Cams $412.30
Lift = 13mm
Duration - 257
Intake Cam is VVT-I enabled


Valve Springs $618.45


Posted by: Rusty Aug 20, 2009 - 2:38 AM

awesome, we have some good info coming in. I hope this becomes a good database of info for people

Posted by: BonzaiCelica Aug 21, 2009 - 1:08 AM

Compression Test proof from JDM Online, Seems to be pretty good, 2nd cylinder was up at 200psi. other wise all others were at 195

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JDM-Toyota-Celica-MR2-3SGE-VVT-i-Beams-Engine_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem4cea91511fQQitemZ330352906527QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

Posted by: BonzaiCelica Sep 16, 2009 - 2:28 PM

Gear Ratios for JDM S54:

3.285 * 4.176 = 2027.5 - 37 mph
1.960 * 4.176 = 1209.7 - 62 mph
1.322 * 4.176 = 815.9 - 91 mph
1.028 * 4.176 = 634.5 - 118 mph
0.820 * 4.176 = 506.1 - 147 mph
Final Drive = 4.176

Compression pressure for 3sge Beams Redtop:

Reference level 1.37Mpa converted to psi is 198.7 max across all 4 cylinder for compression test
Limit 1.08Mpa converted to psi is 146.4

Posted by: BonzaiCelica Sep 25, 2010 - 5:51 PM

pointless post mods please delete if possible

Posted by: Tony-B Sep 25, 2010 - 6:54 PM

It says

Compatibility Info
Toyota Celica ST202 (10/93-09/99) Eng: 3S-GE

AND

The Fujitsubo Super EX Header is compatible with the following vehicles, please confirm before purchasing:

-ST202 Celica SS-II (5/93 ~ 6/96)

-ST202 Celica SS-III (5/93 ~ 6/96)

I wonder would RHD be able to confirm?

Posted by: BonzaiCelica Sep 25, 2010 - 8:48 PM

pointless post

Posted by: njccmd2002 Sep 25, 2010 - 10:11 PM

they dont, i have seen a thread in MR2 that compares a beams bolt pattern with the 3rd gen 3sge and they mismatch...

Posted by: Rusty Sep 26, 2010 - 1:01 AM

Nope they dont.


QUOTE ("BonzaiCelica")
From what I've been reading up on the 3S-GE as listed in this thread, all 3S-GE blocks share the same height. this includes 3rd gen, 4th gen and 5th gen right!??

The same height? Thats not what you look at, if your looking at buying some extractors. its the bolt pattern/spacing of the exhaust ports which is the most important part, as njccmd2002 pointed out. As you would remember the 4th Gen 3S-GE BEAMS engines (redtop, blacktop) are a completely different cast to that of the 3rd Gen 3S-GE.

QUOTE
also I have another source to back this up. http://www.6gc.net/parts/382

sorry, but the info is not correct, it may have been added 10 years ago. also note: No one who owns this part has contributed their thoughts regarding this part yet.

just thought I'd add their website in here, for further info.
http://www.fujitsubo.co.jp/prods/detail/000000000000001296/00000000000000002843/00000254

-ST202 Celica SS-II (5/93 ~ 6/96)

-ST202 Celica SS-III (5/93 ~ 6/96)


Those details that RHDJapan and Tony-B added speak for themselves. Does not fit the redtop.



can I ask what is wrong with the Factory extractors? Because your wanting to spend about US$850 for 1.1KW? The factory extractor type manifolds fitted the 3S-GE and BEAMS 3S-GE are very good. Toyota put some effort into the design and flow of these.

I think your better off putting your money towards your BEAMS engine.

Posted by: BonzaiCelica Sep 26, 2010 - 2:30 PM

yes you make a good point Rusty and I know you are right. Well I want an all stainless steel exhaust system. A custom made stainless steel header will make it sounds nicer, perform a little better, and it looks much nicer in the engine bay. those are the 3 reasons why I want to make one.

Posted by: njccmd2002 Sep 26, 2010 - 6:14 PM

go custom.... build one from scratch..

go custom.... build one from scratch..

Posted by: Tony-B Sep 27, 2010 - 4:15 PM

I think Rusty has a point, maybe more gains to be had by free-ing up further down the exhaust system. I think i remember Edophus saying before about tidying up little burrs in the entrance to his manny, so maybe a little polishing?

I haven't been under my car in a bit but i think i remember a box after the cat.

Maybe minus those two could make a difference?

I wish i had a quality ECU tho.

T

Posted by: Edophus Sep 27, 2010 - 6:02 PM

QUOTE (Rusty @ Sep 26, 2010 - 7:01 AM) *
can I ask what is wrong with the Factory extractors? Because your wanting to spend about US$850 for 1.1KW? The factory extractor type manifolds fitted the 3S-GE and BEAMS 3S-GE are very good. Toyota put some effort into the design and flow of these.

I think your better off putting your money towards your BEAMS engine.


rusty is right, there isnt a lot wrong with the stock extractors, the dimensions may be quite tight but they are fine for a near stock cam, the problem is and this is typical toyota the ingredients are right, the execution not so, the welds tend to be tack welds on the outside and welded on the inside, if you reweld the manifold so the welds are on the outside of the pipe, take a dremel and grind out the garbage on the inside of the pipe, so far i've found the manifolds to be really sloppy here, the design is fundementally fine, but the execution is poor. This isnt a power adder as such but will free up the engine at high revs, we found this on the beams and its also true of the newer 2zz engines where usually a ported stock manifold is better than the aftermarket ones.

To make it complicated biggrin.gif It is worth leaving a step though at the bottom of the manifold floor where the manifold meets the head, you dont want it exact you want the pipe to be slightly bigger at the floor so there is a step down leaving the head, this helps to break up reversion pulses and does no harm to the exhaust flow.

Posted by: BonzaiCelica Sep 27, 2010 - 10:42 PM

OK I'll take all these facts and suggestions into consideration, it'll just come down to money in the end if I'm saving as much money as possible on the swap. Also on another note would you guys powder coat the header or leave it to dissipate heat into the engine bay on its on. from previous experience of not heat wrapping my ebay header the temp gauge meter runs at half way point when you let the car idle and once the fans turns on the needle drops back down to a little under the halfway point.

Posted by: Rusty Oct 7, 2010 - 7:16 PM

I seriously doubt powder coating is able to withstand the heat from the extractors bonzai.

I'd suggest spraying them with vht(very high temperature) exhaust/header spray and then you can add some exhaust wrap (white or black) would look tidy, and should not fade etc. Should work quite well, in keeping the the engine bay temperatures down, and increase exhuast flow.

Posted by: TRDGT4 Oct 7, 2010 - 9:29 PM

or get them coated http://www.hpcoatings.co.nz/

Posted by: njccmd2002 Oct 9, 2010 - 2:54 PM

vht high temp paint dont work. it flaked on mine. that exhaust is hawt...

Posted by: Rusty Dec 3, 2010 - 6:41 PM

Over the past couple of months I have been searching for more information about the 3S-GE motors. I've found some info regarding the powerdeck spacer and making a custom intake manifold, ACIS plus turbo which I'm going to add later.

I came across on Celica-Club UK, a dyno graph which show the results 'before and after' of the powerdeck spacer, and has also come back into discussion over there recently, so I thought I might aswell post it up here swell.

"there was 5 months between dyno's

before
180 bhp @ 7300
135.7 lbft @ 4988
after
181.9 bhp @ 7139
135.8 lbft @ 4733"



Posted by: BonzaiCelica Dec 4, 2010 - 5:50 PM

hmm wow 2 hp. that's like a air intake. So a total of 4 hp with a combined short ram intake.

Posted by: eazy2001x Dec 10, 2010 - 1:08 PM

For those of you who are running ACIS you may want to try a change over from 5200 to 4800, i lowered my 1/4 mile times by doing so in a MR2. I was running a turbo transmission so the engine performed different from you S54 guys but it deff made a difference. My best times at 3000 lbs was a 14.53 logged in my MR2. you also may want to try connecting a VAFC to the ACIS system to control it. It makes things fun. you can leave the ACIS in open for a window of time rather than just open and close you can really customize it. example. if you use a 4800 switch over point and you are on the track. you switch from 2nd to 3rd and drop to 4600 and have to wait a second for it to open at 4800 you lose time. with the VAFC you leave open for a little bit so that you dont have to wait for it to pop open and take advantage of the higher RPMS. also if you notice.. the stock ECU is tuned for a change over point of 5200 so even though you set to anything besides that. at 5200 the ecu will make adjustments to fuel and timing based on its switch over point of 5200. I also have a VAFC jumper harness for sale if anyone wants to play around.

one of my old threads.. enjoy..

Project 5S-GE V-AFC Fun today (Feels Good!)
http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=200927

Posted by: BonzaiCelica Jan 18, 2011 - 11:07 PM

QUOTE (Edophus @ Sep 27, 2010 - 7:02 PM) *
QUOTE (Rusty @ Sep 26, 2010 - 7:01 AM) *
can I ask what is wrong with the Factory extractors? Because your wanting to spend about US$850 for 1.1KW? The factory extractor type manifolds fitted the 3S-GE and BEAMS 3S-GE are very good. Toyota put some effort into the design and flow of these.

I think your better off putting your money towards your BEAMS engine.


rusty is right, there isnt a lot wrong with the stock extractors, the dimensions may be quite tight but they are fine for a near stock cam, the problem is and this is typical toyota the ingredients are right, the execution not so, the welds tend to be tack welds on the outside and welded on the inside, if you reweld the manifold so the welds are on the outside of the pipe, take a dremel and grind out the garbage on the inside of the pipe, so far i've found the manifolds to be really sloppy here, the design is fundementally fine, but the execution is poor. This isnt a power adder as such but will free up the engine at high revs, we found this on the beams and its also true of the newer 2zz engines where usually a ported stock manifold is better than the aftermarket ones.

To make it complicated biggrin.gif It is worth leaving a step though at the bottom of the manifold floor where the manifold meets the head, you dont want it exact you want the pipe to be slightly bigger at the floor so there is a step down leaving the head, this helps to break up reversion pulses and does no harm to the exhaust flow.


what do you mean by the stuff I highlighted in Red. Also what type of synthetic oil does the 3S-GE Beams Redtop use??? I just read that the 1zz-fe which has dual vvt-i uses 5W-30 and synthetic oil changes should be done every 6,000 miles??

Posted by: Rusty Jan 19, 2011 - 12:59 AM

QUOTE (BonzaiCelica @ Jan 19, 2011 - 5:07 PM) *
I just read that the 1zz-fe which has dual vvt-i uses 5W-30 and synthetic oil changes should be done every 6,000 miles??

where did you read that? because they only have VVT-i on the inlet cam. Yup thats pretty normal on the oil change

Posted by: BonzaiCelica Jan 19, 2011 - 1:18 AM

QUOTE (Rusty @ Jan 19, 2011 - 12:59 AM) *
QUOTE (BonzaiCelica @ Jan 19, 2011 - 5:07 PM) *
I just read that the 1zz-fe which has dual vvt-i uses 5W-30 and synthetic oil changes should be done every 6,000 miles??

where did you read that? because they only have VVT-i on the inlet cam. Yup thats pretty normal on the oil change


oh I just thought it had dual vvt-i like the blacktop 3S-GE from the altezza nvm I didnt read it I assumed it. So the 1zz-fe technology is the same as the Redtop Beams right.

Posted by: Rusty Feb 3, 2011 - 2:18 AM

I read this awhile ago, but cant remember where I found it, thought I should add it anyway...


QUOTE
In reality, Toyota didn't delete the TVIS system for the 3rd Generation 3SGE. They rather changed the way it works so that it removes the restriction that the TVIS butterflies had by being at the entry point of the intake ports (they were restrictive even when fully opened).
For the 3rd generation, they used variable plenum volume. In other words, they created a secondary set of runners connected to a secondary plenum, which allowed for more air volume at lower RPM. At 5250, the valves close (much in the same way they opened with TVIS) and the air only travels through the primary plenum and runners, thus increasing air speed and creating more power. There are some pictures out there about how the system works. For what is worth, I think that both systems are just as effective for what they were created. The change in sound and pull from the 3rd Gen system is very noticeable (almost like an S2000).


Opps forgot to add my info on custom 3sge manifold and ACIS plus turbo, will try add that this weekend.

Posted by: BonzaiCelica Jun 5, 2011 - 10:57 PM

I'm having a hard time believing delusionz. To my understanding, the 4th gen 3SGE specs are as follows

Horsepower: 197hp @ 7000rpm
Torque: 152 lb-ft @ 6000rpm
Redline: 7250rpm
Rev Limiter : 7450rpm


now what I'm really after is the redline and the rev limiter. Are those numbers correct?

Here is prove no, look at what doggy said. I know he knows for a fact since he's owned both a 3rd gen and 4th gen 3SGE http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=44781&hl=3sge

Posted by: Rusty Jun 6, 2011 - 1:42 AM

from what I read from that
3 gen 3S-GE - limiter 7500rpm
Beams 3S-GE - limiter is 7450rpm
and redline starts at 7,000rpm, and max advised rpm is 7,200rpm for both of these 3S-GE's


and also pointing out thats 197bhp not whp or flywheel hp

Posted by: BonzaiCelica Jun 6, 2011 - 1:57 AM

QUOTE (Rusty @ Jun 6, 2011 - 1:42 AM) *
from what I read from that
3 gen 3S-GE - limiter 7500rpm
Beams 3S-GE - limiter is 7450rpm
and redline starts at 7,000rpm, and max advised rpm is 7,200rpm for both of these 3S-GE's


and also pointing out thats 197bhp not whp or flywheel hp


haha yes rusty I already understand how car company's state the hp, you don't have to keep on reminding me.

see I knew I was right.

Posted by: Rusty Jul 2, 2011 - 3:20 AM

After my brother getting a 2ZZ-GE powered corolla thingy, and seeing the results on some forums. made me re think about porting our manifolds


here is a 2zz exhaust manifold. This result was 3kw atw gain on a standard exhaust (same dyno, same day)
after --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- before




Seen below is a stock redtop 3sge exhaust manifold. Cant find any pictures of a 3rd gen 3sge, but I'd assume would be the same.




So I'm on the hunt for some extractors so I can have a play smile.gif

Posted by: delusionz Jul 2, 2011 - 4:09 AM

QUOTE (Rusty @ Jun 6, 2011 - 6:42 PM) *
from what I read from that
3 gen 3S-GE - limiter 7500rpm
Beams 3S-GE - limiter is 7450rpm
and redline starts at 7,000rpm, and max advised rpm is 7,200rpm for both of these 3S-GE's


and also pointing out thats 197bhp not whp or flywheel hp


Try bouncing off the limiter then, any gear just foot flat to the floor nananananananana and tell me u make it to 7500.... No 3rd or 4th gen 3S-G* I've ever driven has revved that high, they all cut out at 7200 which is the end of the small red line and the start of the big red line on the tachometer.

Posted by: delusionz Jul 2, 2011 - 4:16 AM

Btw good idea on the port work, however

smooth isnt best, rough is best. like the dimples on a golf ball, it carries further with dimples. this is wat im told anyways

match up the head to the gasket and the gasket to the headers, then rough it up after

also, #1 exhaust port is wider than the rest, its to compensate for the sharp exit angle as its hidden behind the alternator.. this is the case on 3sgte anyways

Posted by: BonzaiCelica Jul 2, 2011 - 4:46 AM

on the 2zzge was the stock exhaust manifold and downpipe ported. I only have stock exhaust manifold and shop made downpipe. Yes its said to be that the beams 4th gen 3sge exhaust header is superb in its flow characteristics and design. My guess would be grabbing a dremel tool and porting that by hand what else?? hmm would it be worth doing without a before dyno and after dyno. Ugh taking out the alternator and slim radiator fan just to remove the header what a pain....

But if stock exhaust is welded on inside of manifold then we can't port it by hand with a dremel tool right??? you said 3kw at the wheels, hmm then that $850 spend on stainless steel exhaust header and downpipe wouldn't only gain 1.1kw like you said before Rusty.

still don't believe 4th gen can rev that high huh delusionz? don't worry I'll post a video up soon in my thread. I won't make it too 7,500 rpm I'll make it to 7,450 rpm biggrin.gif which is the limiter/fuel cut....

Posted by: BonzaiCelica Jul 2, 2011 - 4:49 AM

QUOTE (Edophus @ Sep 27, 2010 - 7:02 PM) *
QUOTE (Rusty @ Sep 26, 2010 - 7:01 AM) *
can I ask what is wrong with the Factory extractors? Because your wanting to spend about US$850 for 1.1KW? The factory extractor type manifolds fitted the 3S-GE and BEAMS 3S-GE are very good. Toyota put some effort into the design and flow of these.

I think your better off putting your money towards your BEAMS engine.


rusty is right, there isnt a lot wrong with the stock extractors, the dimensions may be quite tight but they are fine for a near stock cam, the problem is and this is typical toyota the ingredients are right, the execution not so, the welds tend to be tack welds on the outside and welded on the inside, if you reweld the manifold so the welds are on the outside of the pipe, take a dremel and grind out the garbage on the inside of the pipe, so far i've found the manifolds to be really sloppy here, the design is fundementally fine, but the execution is poor. This isnt a power adder as such but will free up the engine at high revs, we found this on the beams and its also true of the newer 2zz engines where usually a ported stock manifold is better than the aftermarket ones.

To make it complicated biggrin.gif It is worth leaving a step though at the bottom of the manifold floor where the manifold meets the head, you dont want it exact you want the pipe to be slightly bigger at the floor so there is a step down leaving the head, this helps to break up reversion pulses and does no harm to the exhaust flow.


as said by edophus. What does he mean in his last paragraph???

Posted by: delusionz Jul 2, 2011 - 5:29 AM

step down, means the pipe is bigger than the port on the flange, makes sense, most custom manifolds are done this way by just welding the pipe over the top, mine was even done with flare pieces right on the flange and tapper down to the ID of the normal steampipe pieces

Posted by: Rusty Jul 3, 2011 - 2:30 AM

QUOTE
smooth isnt best, rough is best. like the dimples on a golf ball, it carries further with dimples. this is wat im told anyways


I think that's just on the intake side, the exhaust side would just run smooth from the carbon.


QUOTE
But if stock exhaust is welded on inside of manifold then we can't port it by hand with a dremel tool right??? you said 3kw at the wheels, hmm then that $850 spend on stainless steel exhaust header and downpipe wouldn't only gain 1.1kw like you said before Rusty.


It's welded inside and out, plus our cars have a brace to the block so less chance of cracking. Yeah just use a die grinder or something.
The 3kw atw gain was from the 2zz. The Fujitsubo 3S-GE extrators stated a power figure of 135kw and stated factory is 133.39kw. Cant remember how I got the 1.1kw, I may have used my dyno figures, not sure sorry.
Now in todays exchange rate it sells for $1,273.51 USD, now compare that to $20 USD for a new exhaust gasket and porting the manifold yourself for the same power.

Posted by: KAOS Oct 31, 2011 - 3:09 PM

Yay - glad I found this thread! W00t!

Tons of information. Thanks guys!

Posted by: richee3 Dec 14, 2011 - 11:08 AM

Here are three articles concerning VVT-i- how it works, the different components, diagnosing issues, etc. Very useful information in these articles for anyone with VVT-i.

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0BwFhCeAkWBe2OGFjNWU2MTYtNzUwYS00YWJmLTk0OTAtMzhlZmJlMGU4Mjhk
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0BwFhCeAkWBe2NDM1YzE4YjMtODc5NC00N2I1LTkwMTgtNGI3ZThkNDZhZmIw
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0BwFhCeAkWBe2NGE4ZjMyNjQtYWY0Ni00NzdkLTkyYzItNzU2NmIwYzZjYzQy

Posted by: richee3 Jan 24, 2012 - 5:47 PM

I just learned a bit of information on the BEAMS. I sold my spare Redtop injectors to puretone a few weeks back for a project he's got going. He had them tested and here are the results.

QUOTE
Just got a quartet of injectors cleaned & spec'd. I got these off of Richee3, I'll need him to chime in on age/miles of these injectors.

After cleaning & testing they flowed 399.9cc's (400cc for all intents & purposes) and were all within less than 1% of each other.
This was done on an Aussie ASNU test bench at 3 bar pressure.

Anyone wanna chime in on wtf is going on here?


We previously thought the Redtop injectors were 340 cc. That's a pretty big difference.

Posted by: ricochet1490 Jan 24, 2012 - 6:32 PM

QUOTE (richee3 @ Jan 24, 2012 - 6:47 PM) *
I just learned a bit of information on the BEAMS. I sold my spare Redtop injectors to puretone a few weeks back for a project he's got going. He had them tested and here are the results.

QUOTE
Just got a quartet of injectors cleaned & spec'd. I got these off of Richee3, I'll need him to chime in on age/miles of these injectors.

After cleaning & testing they flowed 399.9cc's (400cc for all intents & purposes) and were all within less than 1% of each other.
This was done on an Aussie ASNU test bench at 3 bar pressure.

Anyone wanna chime in on wtf is going on here?


We previously thought the Redtop injectors were 340 cc. That's a pretty big difference.


Dan, did you send him the Redtop injectors? or the greytop injectors?
My thought is that you know the previous owner of your second redtop was into modding the car...... maybe that was one of the upgrades?? Maybe those aren't STOCK injectors..... just a thought. greytop injectors I wouldn't have questioned, but the second redtop is suspect....

Posted by: richee3 Jan 24, 2012 - 6:53 PM

I did consider that. Greytop injectors should be 315 cc, Redtop injectors should be 340. I'm talking to him to find out if he thinks they've ever had any work. They didn't look to me like they've ever been taken off of the Redtop but you never know.

Posted by: richee3 Feb 9, 2012 - 6:50 AM

Per Puretone, via mr2.co when I asked if the injectors had been touched:

QUOTE
Hey Dan,

From what I can tell & the performance shop can tell, these injectors are untouched. The only thing that could have been done to them to increase cc's is somebody screwing around with the nozzles.... which did not happen.
We are mystified what's causing the jump in flow. They were surprisingly clean too. The tech-geek doing the injectors was surprised to see such little wear & crud on/in them.
Weird weird weird....I'll be doing more with them soon enough. Gotta find some spare time.

Posted by: ricochet1490 Apr 25, 2012 - 11:15 PM

Dan, check back with him. They are so new, maybe the guy who owned that modified motor but different injectors in? I.E. - Blacktop Beams injectors? Do we have flowrate numbers for the blacktop injectors?

Posted by: BonzaiCelica May 9, 2012 - 10:59 PM



this pictures is originally 3507 x 2480 but when I upload ti photo bucket it downsizes it to 1024 x 860??

how do i get it to upload to the full image size

Posted by: njccmd2002 May 10, 2012 - 1:40 AM

^^^ pay for a pro account.... lol

Posted by: BonzaiCelica May 24, 2012 - 12:34 AM

parts cross referenced for members in Europe and US


-MAF Sensor (22204-20010) for Camry Engines 1MZFE 3.0L V6 and 2002 (2AZFE 2.4L) 4 cylinder
-Timing Belt (13568-80015) same for Altezza RS200 (3sge beams with dual VVT-I)
-Two Ring Gaskets for Exhaust B-pipe to Header Manifold (90917-06075) same as 2001-2003 Highlander 1MZ-FE
-Engine Gasket Kit (04111-74710)
-Head Gasket (11115-88560)
-Head Studs (90910-02094) same as 95 MR2 Turbo
-Valve Cover Gasket (11213-88560)
-Inner Valve Cover Gasket (11214-88560) these are for the spark plugs
-Water Pump (16100-79225) This is the same as USA 1995 Toyota MR2 Turbo
-Thermostat (90916-03100) for 2007 Sequoia, Land Cruiser and Sequoia 4.0L V6 and 4.8L V8 Engines
-Thermostat Housing (16321-88460)
-Clutch Disc (31250-20331) 1999 ST204 5SFE
-Clutch Cover/Pressure Plate (31210-44010) I'd get a stage 2, 5sfe aftermarket pressure plate if I were you !!
-Oxygen Sensor (89465-20620) Japan Only
-3rd and 4th Gen 3SGE B-pipe is identical, but location for oxygen sensor is different


3rd Gen 3sge b-pipe


4th Gen 3sge beams b-pipe

Posted by: Rusty May 24, 2012 - 4:17 AM

QUOTE (Rusty)
Seen below is a stock redtop 3sge exhaust manifold. Cant find any pictures of a 3rd gen 3sge, but I'd assume would be the same.





So I've recently found for sale here in NZ, Gen 3 3S-GE extractors. They do look a lot tidier/smoother inside compared to the above BEAMS ones, but they have been painted/coated in something, so i'm not sure if its been ported or not at the same time.




Posted by: KAOS May 24, 2012 - 9:45 AM

This thread is a goldmine. thumbsup.gif Great work, all!

Posted by: KAOS May 24, 2012 - 9:57 AM

QUOTE (BonzaiCelica @ May 23, 2012 - 11:34 PM) *
parts cross referenced for members in Europe and US


• MAF Sensor (22204-20010) for Camry Engines 1MZFE 3.0L V6 and 2002 (2AZFE 2.4L) 4 cylinder
• Timing Belt (13568-80015) same for Altezza
• Two Ring Gaskets for Exhaust B-pipe to Header Manifold (90917-06075) same as 2001-2003 Highlander 1MZ-FE
• Engine Gasket Kit (04111-74710)
• Water Pump (16100-79226)
• Thermostat (90916-03100) for 2007 Sequoia, Land Cruiser and Sequoia 4.0L V6 and 4.8L V8 Engines
• Thermostat Housing (16321-88460)
• Clutch Disc (31250-20331) 1999 ST204 5SFE
• Clutch Cover/Pressure Plate (31210-44010) or 2nd Gen. 3sgte USDM (31210-20321)
• Oxygen Sensor (89465-20620) Japan Only
• 3rd and 4th Gen 3SGE B-pipe is identical, but location for oxygen sensor is different


3rd Gen 3sge b-pipe


4th Gen 3sge beams b-pipe



Do you happen to know the parts number for the "Ignition Coil Assembly"?

Posted by: BonzaiCelica Jun 26, 2012 - 2:32 PM

speaking of porting and smoothing out the header, I tried it on one and it took me atleast 30 min to smooth some of it down with a small dremel tool. The material is real thick. It would take me somewhere around 3 hours to do all four.

sorry man ^^ I don't know.

Posted by: 3WayStunna Jun 26, 2012 - 3:28 PM

QUOTE (KAOS @ May 24, 2012 - 9:57 AM) *
QUOTE (BonzaiCelica @ May 23, 2012 - 11:34 PM) *
parts cross referenced for members in Europe and US


• MAF Sensor (22204-20010) for Camry Engines 1MZFE 3.0L V6 and 2002 (2AZFE 2.4L) 4 cylinder
• Timing Belt (13568-80015) same for Altezza
• Two Ring Gaskets for Exhaust B-pipe to Header Manifold (90917-06075) same as 2001-2003 Highlander 1MZ-FE
• Engine Gasket Kit (04111-74710)
• Water Pump (16100-79226)
• Thermostat (90916-03100) for 2007 Sequoia, Land Cruiser and Sequoia 4.0L V6 and 4.8L V8 Engines
• Thermostat Housing (16321-88460)
• Clutch Disc (31250-20331) 1999 ST204 5SFE
• Clutch Cover/Pressure Plate (31210-44010) or 2nd Gen. 3sgte USDM (31210-20321)
• Oxygen Sensor (89465-20620) Japan Only
• 3rd and 4th Gen 3SGE B-pipe is identical, but location for oxygen sensor is different


3rd Gen 3sge b-pipe


4th Gen 3sge beams b-pipe



Do you happen to know the parts number for the "Ignition Coil Assembly"?


Blaktop Ignition Coil Assy - (COIL ASSY, IGNITION = 90919‑02236)

Posted by: DimaGT4 Jun 30, 2012 - 4:19 AM

QUOTE (BonzaiCelica @ Aug 20, 2009 - 12:13 AM) *
ok so i gathered some info from the beams redtop forums. all prices are American Dollars.

Total for Individual Throttle Bodies $2,226.42 (this includes center pull linkage, tps, gasket, bolts etc.)





engine block can be bored to 86.45 mm and compression will be at 12.5:1 with 98 RON Fuel. or you can run up to 13.5:1 compression on 100 RON Fuel.


Rod and Rod Bolts $1236.90


Set of 4 Inlet Cam $1030.75, Cams $412.30


Valve Springs $618.45




Hello!

Where to buy the piston connecting rods and camshafts.
The compression piston 13. Camshafts duration-257 lift-13 Intake Cam is VVT-I enabled. Forged Rods 8mm longer than Standard Rods Rod Ratio - 1.7.

Posted by: delusionz Jun 30, 2012 - 4:55 PM

QUOTE (Rusty @ May 24, 2012 - 9:17 PM) *
Seen below is a stock redtop 3sge exhaust manifold. Cant find any pictures of a 3rd gen 3sge, but I'd assume would be the same.
So I've recently found for sale here in NZ, Gen 3 3S-GE extractors. They do look a lot tidier/smoother inside compared to the above BEAMS ones, but they have been painted/coated in something, so i'm not sure if its been ported or not at the same time.


notice #1 port is slightly wider than the rest to accomodate for the sharp angle at which it comes out of the head and starts heading diagonally towards the alternator before making a sharp exit outwards. this "design flaw" is common to the gen3 3sgte aswell, which other motors are like this too???

Posted by: BonzaiCelica Oct 18, 2012 - 6:11 PM

how the helk would you port down the inside of the exhaust header. I tried doing it with a small handheld dremmel tool and one took exhaust port(whatever you call it) took about 30 min to grind down 2mm all around.

Posted by: BonzaiCelica Mar 29, 2014 - 12:25 PM

QUOTE (Rusty @ Dec 3, 2010 - 7:41 PM) *
Over the past couple of months I have been searching for more information about the 3S-GE motors. I've found some info regarding the powerdeck spacer and making a custom intake manifold, ACIS plus turbo which I'm going to add later.

I came across on Celica-Club UK, a dyno graph which show the results 'before and after' of the powerdeck spacer, and has also come back into discussion over there recently, so I thought I might aswell post it up here swell.

"there was 5 months between dyno's

before
180 bhp @ 7300
135.7 lbft @ 4988
after
181.9 bhp @ 7139
135.8 lbft @ 4733"


http://s483.photobucket.com/user/BonzaiCelica/media/1999%20Celica%20GT/deckspacer_zpsrjh2espx.jpg.html



Posted by: mi645 Mar 29, 2014 - 2:17 PM

Someone needs to provide you with AIR TOOLS.

Posted by: Rusty Mar 29, 2014 - 5:29 PM

QUOTE (BonzaiCelica @ Oct 19, 2012 - 12:11 PM) *
how the helk would you port down the inside of the exhaust header. I tried doing it with a small handheld dremmel tool and one took exhaust port(whatever you call it) took about 30 min to grind down 2mm all around.

Did you mark out the ports or just grind 2mm all the way around? Did you do a slight step down on the bottom as mentioned previously in this thread?
also +1 on good tools, makes it so much easier.

Where on the web did you find that article also? As it would be interesting to see others findings. Just as long as its not the weird Europe way of dyno figures

I still think that's a bit of a gimmick item. As the intake runners are longer in low rpm's (open) & short in high rpm's (closed)

Posted by: BonzaiCelica Mar 30, 2014 - 2:08 AM

http://s483.photobucket.com/user/BonzaiCelica/media/3S-GE%20Beams/Exhaust%20Set-up/portedbeamsheader_zpsb430881a.jpg.html

this is pic above is one member from beams forum. he said 8bhp which i believe is bolognee but he said he modified the b-pipe section and had an air intake. we all know air intakes are a no no with beams motor that is unless its bigger than 72mm inner diameter? hmm i want to see if it works better with larger air intake piping...

anyway that article is from vincent doggy's thread. i google searched the intake and got nothing.

a local member mi645 has one on his swap perhaps he can do a before and after dyno with and without it on.

Port matching explained... :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DHxpBxP3CY

Posted by: mi645 Mar 30, 2014 - 3:07 AM

deck spacer? and i have the imec ecu i was gonna try to tune it but i couldnt get the software

Posted by: BonzaiCelica Feb 7, 2016 - 5:04 AM

i was taking a look on Fujitsubo japan website for the Header power gains for the Celica/MR2 3rd gen 3sge and it was a 5.1ps increase while the Integra Type R DC2 was a 5.9ps increase. So with a 3sge Beams Redtop you can anywhere in that range. Fujitsubo LEGALIS R MAKES 3.9PS as a bolt on system after catalytic converter for the 3rd gen 3sge. Could be a bit more for the 4th gen 3sge I'm sure.

Also the stainless header will increase exhaust noise by 4db and lists that the Super Ex Fujitsubo Header and Bpipe weighs 9.1kg = 20 lbs. I wonder what the stock header and bpipe weighs??

Stock Header and Bpipe on SW20 = 15kg, Fujitsubo Header and Bpipe on SW20 = 11kg(they include a bolt on heat shield for SW20). So a 8.82 pound weight loss.


So a Fujitsubo Legalis R header, de-cat pipe and Fujitsubo legalis R exhaust. you can see a 11-13ps (depending on 3rd or 4th generation 3sge) increase. not bad. A straight through muffler like HKS or Kakimoto might be a bit more but not much.

Posted by: Smaay Feb 7, 2016 - 1:53 PM

head design, valve size, engine design. just cause a header is built similarly, dont mean it will perform the same on different platforms

Posted by: Rusty Feb 10, 2016 - 3:04 AM

Sounds like you're splitting hairs 0.8PS (Pferdestärke) is 0.8HP or 0.588kw. Also 15-11=8.82 just stick to 1 form of measurement


Did you ever get your Celica dyno'd Bonzai to see what your base power is and go from there? So you know roughly what your gains are when you do buy & install some parts for your beams.

When I installed the Tom's ecu I got a print out of the O2 readings from the exhaust. No since we have never had some sort of smog checking, I can't really compare my results to others locally. Would be interesting to compare - if it is comparable, to people in the States

Posted by: BonzaiCelica Feb 10, 2016 - 2:21 PM

Nope. I don't plan to do any dyno unless it's real cheap. And adding other engine parts isn't realistic. Got other plans. I was just putting the info so people know what to expect. With a full system.

Oh yea sorry. I just fixed that post ��

Posted by: BonzaiCelica Jun 16, 2016 - 3:24 AM

Not a new product or anything. But companies like technotoytuning and battle garage offer individual throttle body set up for beams motors that's actually compatible with 4age blacktop. Im just not sure if a whole kit is bolt on per say.

Posted by: BonzaiCelica Mar 24, 2017 - 2:30 PM

Camshafts for 3SGE ACIS and Beams Redtop. someone from south africa told me it was $1200 + shipping, but came with springs and retainers.

http://www.catcams.com/engines/engine-selection.aspx?SelectedManufacturer=26

Dry Sump Oil Pan for 5sfe and 3sge = $600
http://www.mr2.com/forums/threads/94399-dry-sump-pans-for-any-gen-3sge-or-5sfe-3sgte-as-well

Wossner High Compression Pistons 12:4.1 = $1200.

they have a branch here in Southern California....

https://www.ebay.com/itm/WOSSNER-FORGED-PISTONS-AND-RODS-FOR-TOYOTA-3SGE-2-0-16v-/140508110953

3SGE Beams ITB adapter plate $285, the problem is that i dont think straight trumpets will work. i think they have to be slightly angled @ 60 degrees to clear firewall.....

https://xcessivemanufacturing.com/toyota/by-engine/3sge-gte/toyota-t-3sge-itba-s1.html

Posted by: BonzaiCelica Jul 15, 2017 - 12:23 AM

updates on performance parts for 3SGE

Posted by: BonzaiCelica Nov 25, 2017 - 7:11 PM

bump. for tuning parts....

Posted by: BonzaiCelica Dec 13, 2017 - 5:05 AM

The camshafts that can be used while still retaining VVT-i are these.....

http://www.catcams.com/products/camshafts/datasheet.aspx?ENGINE_id=208&CAMSETUP_id=2410

Please note that you have to check the lower valve seat if the lift is
more then 11.2 mm
Also check the clearance between the valve seal and the retainer like
mentioned on the data sheet.

You also have to change the springs and retainers to use this cams.

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