6G Celicas Forums

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

11 Pages V  « < 6 7 8 9 10 > »   
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> I am just going to run low boost. . . yea right!, A warning for anyone who wants to boost a 5sfe
post May 14, 2017 - 2:26 PM
+Quote Post
HardHead93

Enthusiast
**
Joined Apr 7, '15
From New Mexico
Currently Offline

Reputation: 0 (0%)




QUOTE (Bitter @ May 14, 2017 - 12:35 PM) *
Oh for ****s sake that sucks.


Why you no port and polish while waiting? laugh.gif


It is too late for that I just put the head back onto the block this morning. ARP head studs are a pain in the butt! I had to get a special deep socket 12mm, 12 point because it is so tight where the head studs are.


Good news is I ordered some 3rd gen 3sgte BC 264/264 stage 2 camshafts that I am getting modified to hold the cam sensor tooth. I am combo'ing that with adjustable cam gears. That will definitely help with turbo spool and they work with the stock ECU. I have heard people adding 30-40 hp to a 3sgte without the need for turning up the boost. That will be great since I have piss water 91 octane for fuel where I live.

This post has been edited by HardHead93: May 14, 2017 - 3:23 PM
post May 14, 2017 - 4:02 PM
+Quote Post
Box



Enthusiast
*****
Joined Feb 23, '12
From Warrior, AL
Currently Offline

Reputation: 0 (0%)




It's always something, hopefully between fixing the exhaust leak and everything else will have more stable operating temperatures.


--------------------
2001 Miata LS 5-speed
post May 15, 2017 - 7:54 PM
+Quote Post
HardHead93

Enthusiast
**
Joined Apr 7, '15
From New Mexico
Currently Offline

Reputation: 0 (0%)




My Brian Crower camshafts just came in today. I plan to drop them off at the machine shop tomorrow. I need the camshaft sensor tooth moved from the stock intake cam to the BC aftermarket one. These cams definitely have a little more lift and duration, I can tell by just comparing the lobes. Here are some pics of the stock intake cam next to the aftermarket one.


post May 17, 2017 - 12:49 PM
+Quote Post
slavie

Enthusiast
**
Joined May 2, '15
From NY
Currently Offline

Reputation: 3 (100%)




Any time I have to deal with any exhaust bolts, I dread the job long before it begins and spray everything with penetrating fluid for a few days before removal, use impact tools, go slowly. The only way I've tried where no bolts suffered. Go at them dry, or with hand tools, and there's about 20% chance of broken bolts.

I haven't had much luck with removing broken bolts from cast aluminum housings (head, transmission). Seems like once those steel bolts dig into aluminum, they aren't coming out - drill 'em out and put thread insets in. My collection of thread insert sets has grown over the years...
post May 18, 2017 - 5:32 AM
+Quote Post
HardHead93

Enthusiast
**
Joined Apr 7, '15
From New Mexico
Currently Offline

Reputation: 0 (0%)




QUOTE (slavie @ May 17, 2017 - 1:49 PM) *
Any time I have to deal with any exhaust bolts, I dread the job long before it begins and spray everything with penetrating fluid for a few days before removal, use impact tools, go slowly. The only way I've tried where no bolts suffered. Go at them dry, or with hand tools, and there's about 20% chance of broken bolts.

I haven't had much luck with removing broken bolts from cast aluminum housings (head, transmission). Seems like once those steel bolts dig into aluminum, they aren't coming out - drill 'em out and put thread insets in. My collection of thread insert sets has grown over the years...


Good to know if it ever happens again. I replaced all the exhaust studs and besides the one that snapped off they all came out without any penetrating oil. I think the one that snapped off was already broken before I took it off because it required very little force for it to snap off. I will use some kind of penetrating oil from now on.
post May 22, 2017 - 5:34 PM
+Quote Post
HardHead93

Enthusiast
**
Joined Apr 7, '15
From New Mexico
Currently Offline

Reputation: 0 (0%)




I finished getting my car back together and on the road. I spent Saturday night breaking in the new BC camshafts. I started the car and rev'ed it to 2K rpm then moved it up and down between 2 and 3K rpm for 25 minutes. Then Sunday morning I did the exact same thing with the break-in again just to be safe. After that I changed the oil filter and put the rest of the car back together. Then Monday morning I did the break-in stuff one more time before taking it out for a drive.

The car drives awesome! I really notice the difference with these new camshafts. First, I ran it on stock spring pressure (7 - 8 psi) for a little bit and it felt more like 10 psi on stock cams. When I finally turned the boost back up to 13 psi, OH MY GOD! The engine pulled really hard on boost. My butt dyno went through the roof on that pull. I need to get this car to a tuner so I can get some actual dyno numbers. I did notice the car is a little bit louder with the new cams, I am guessing it is because of the extra lift and duration.

Also, no more exhaust ticking and the heat issues have gone away so far. This came together just in time for the next local track day this Sunday. It will be a good time!
post May 22, 2017 - 6:26 PM
+Quote Post
Box



Enthusiast
*****
Joined Feb 23, '12
From Warrior, AL
Currently Offline

Reputation: 0 (0%)




It's normal for a "bigger" cam to be louder with nothing else being changed. Good example being your domestic V8s where just a cam swap makes a huge difference in the exhaust tone and volume.

Look forward to the dyno numbers.


--------------------
2001 Miata LS 5-speed
post May 23, 2017 - 8:25 AM
+Quote Post
HardHead93

Enthusiast
**
Joined Apr 7, '15
From New Mexico
Currently Offline

Reputation: 0 (0%)




I retarded the exhaust cam by 3 degrees. I read on the MR2 forums that, that will add some more hp on the 3rd and 4th gen 3sgte's.
post May 30, 2017 - 7:12 PM
+Quote Post
HardHead93

Enthusiast
**
Joined Apr 7, '15
From New Mexico
Currently Offline

Reputation: 0 (0%)




So I had a little bit of a scare today. I have set up a dyno session for my Celica a week from this Friday and I want to make sure everything is good for it since I will be busy until then. I also really beat on the car hard on the track day and I want to make sure everything is still in working order. During the track day over the weekend my car started to develop a lumpy idle. It must have come from me retarding the exhaust on my aftermarket camshafts.

First, rented a compression tester from AutoZone and did a test. The results were 85 to 90 psi across all cylinders. AHH CRAP! mad.gif I started to do some research and found that aftermarket camshafts with more duration can cause low compression but not like I was seeing. Next, I decided to adjust the exhaust camshaft back to zero and take it out for a drive. It drove like a dream, no misfires or issues. I decided to do another compression test and the same result 85 to 90 psi across all cylinders. At this point I knew it was not the car but the compression tester because by advancing the timing back to zero I should have seen compression go up. Finally, I took the compression tester back to AutoZone and bought a brand new one (I needed one anyways). I ran the compression test again and 150 psi on all cylinders, now that is better!

When I got the engine a few months back I did a compression test to verify the engine was good even though the seller sent me a video compression testing the engine. It came in at 170 psi per cylinder, that got me wondering, why the drop in compression? The answer is the BC camshafts I just installed. This little scare got me reading more into camshafts and I found that the more the exhaust and intake camshafts overlap the lower the dynamic compression which leads to a lower compression test. This is because the combustion chamber is completely sealed for a shorter period of time. I decided too compare the specs of the stock cams vs the aftermarket ones.

The stock 3sgte camshafts have the following specs:
Adv Duration: 256/256 degrees
Duration @ .050": 204/204 degrees
Lift: 0.335"/.0335"

The Brian Crower stage 2 camshafts have the following specs:
Adv Duration: 264/264 degrees
Duration @ .050": 216/216 degrees
Lift: 0.344"/0.344"

I ran the calculations on the stock camshafts and there is almost no overlap in the .050" range if the cams are set to zero. Based on the camshaft card that comes with the BC cams there is 12 degrees of overlap in the .050" range if the cams are set to zero. This means that both the intake and exhaust cams are open at the same time for a lot longer. I also read that overlap in camshaft timing leads to more high RPM power in boosted engines so by me running the exhaust camshafts retarded by 3 degrees I was adding more overlap which was shifting my power curve more to the right. I definitely could feel it on the track, once I hit 5000+ rpm, the car got this crazy surge of power that really surprised me. I was kind of awesome when that happened and all those little Miatas that thought they could pass me, could not keep up with me in the straightaways.

The problem with high rpm power is that it is fun on the track but not for daily driving. Also, on boosted engines there comes a point where overlap is bad because there is no free flowing exhaust like a NA motor. Since the track days only occur every 2 months, I decided to advance my exhaust timing by 1-2 degrees to start with and see how that will affect my drivability. It will shrink the overlap and create more low end power for the street, plus get rid of my lumpy idle.

I did not expect this post to be so long but I just started typing and here we are. Please chime in with any thoughts or let me know if I am completely off track.
post May 30, 2017 - 8:05 PM
+Quote Post
Box



Enthusiast
*****
Joined Feb 23, '12
From Warrior, AL
Currently Offline

Reputation: 0 (0%)




On naturally aspirated V8's it's common to go really high on the static compression 12:1+ and then bleed it off with a large cam so the dynamic compression is somewhere in the 10:1 range. Boost also increases your dynamic compression but you knew that. Also yes in general the more advance the more low end focus and vice versa. There are some nice calculators out there online that take in all the factors like cam specs, boost, static compression, etc... and can tell you your dynamic compression.


--------------------
2001 Miata LS 5-speed
post May 30, 2017 - 9:04 PM
+Quote Post
HardHead93

Enthusiast
**
Joined Apr 7, '15
From New Mexico
Currently Offline

Reputation: 0 (0%)




QUOTE (Box @ May 30, 2017 - 9:05 PM) *
On naturally aspirated V8's it's common to go really high on the static compression 12:1+ and then bleed it off with a large cam so the dynamic compression is somewhere in the 10:1 range. Boost also increases your dynamic compression but you knew that. Also yes in general the more advance the more low end focus and vice versa. There are some nice calculators out there online that take in all the factors like cam specs, boost, static compression, etc... and can tell you your dynamic compression.


I just ran my engine specs through a calculator and it say my dynamic pressure should be at 150.06 psi. AWESOME! I have a healthy engine that is in spec. biggrin.gif
post May 31, 2017 - 11:02 AM
+Quote Post
HardHead93

Enthusiast
**
Joined Apr 7, '15
From New Mexico
Currently Offline

Reputation: 0 (0%)




I think I may be getting a little confused. I read the following:

Generally, advancing a cam gear opens a valve sooner, and closes it sooner... retarding the cam gear, opens the valve later, and closes it later... since all you've done is "move" the fixed event.

Advancing Intake and Exhaust : This will provide the car with more bottom end power, and will decrease top end. Advancing both cam gears will move overlap earlier but will not increase it.

Retarding Intake and Exhaust : This will increase the cars top end, but will decrease low end. Retarding both cam gears will move the overlap later and but will not change the amount of overlap.

Advance Exhaust Only : This will help the cars top end, and it reduces overlap.

Retard Exhaust only : This will help the cars mid range power, very useful for cars with big turbos / big cams. By increasing overlap, It decreases lag significantly. Doing this will bring the boost on all at once. Very common DSM modification.

Advance Intake only : This will increase overlap and helps the cars bottom end and mid range power. This mod will bring the turbo on all at once, although isnt a very common mod for DSMS.


This tends to line up with what I am reading on most MR2 forums about the 3sgte and BC camshafts. The BC camshaft card recommends installing both cams at zero and tuning from there. After some tuning most of the MR2 guys say that advancing the intake 2 degrees and retarding the exhaust by 6 degrees is the best place to start. They also go on to state that no aftermarket cam has ever done well in the zero position in a 3sgte. I am learning a lot about this and it is some pretty cool stuff. Comments???
post May 31, 2017 - 1:17 PM
+Quote Post
Box



Enthusiast
*****
Joined Feb 23, '12
From Warrior, AL
Currently Offline

Reputation: 0 (0%)




Seems like advancing intake and retarding exhaust like they mentioned would be worth trying. Of course the thing to do would be to do a few dyno runs at different timing settings to see what works the best for your particular setup.


--------------------
2001 Miata LS 5-speed
post Jun 1, 2017 - 1:46 PM
+Quote Post
HardHead93

Enthusiast
**
Joined Apr 7, '15
From New Mexico
Currently Offline

Reputation: 0 (0%)




QUOTE (Box @ May 31, 2017 - 1:17 PM) *
Seems like advancing intake and retarding exhaust like they mentioned would be worth trying. Of course the thing to do would be to do a few dyno runs at different timing settings to see what works the best for your particular setup.


That is the plan. I have advanced the intake camshaft timing by 1 degree (2 on the crank) and retarded 3 degrees on the exhaust camshaft (6 on the crank). My butt dyno was going crazy, I love it! Let's see what the real dyno shows me next week. I am excited!

This post has been edited by HardHead93: Jun 1, 2017 - 1:47 PM
post Jun 1, 2017 - 6:27 PM
+Quote Post
JohnnyGat0519

Enthusiast
*
Joined Jul 12, '15
From Iowa
Currently Offline

Reputation: 1 (100%)




So this thread is making a little service, as i am in the process of doing a 5sfte on my vert. Ubhabe read many success stories for these as well. Is it really that bad of an idea, or can it be done safety? Seems to be many that habe done it successfully
post Jun 3, 2017 - 9:29 PM
+Quote Post
HardHead93

Enthusiast
**
Joined Apr 7, '15
From New Mexico
Currently Offline

Reputation: 0 (0%)




QUOTE (JohnnyGat0519 @ Jun 1, 2017 - 6:27 PM) *
So this thread is making a little service, as i am in the process of doing a 5sfte on my vert. Ubhabe read many success stories for these as well. Is it really that bad of an idea, or can it be done safety? Seems to be many that habe done it successfully


It can be done successfully but as far as time and money let me break it down:

Basics for 3sgte Swap
Engine: $1100
Wiring (done by WireGap): $500
Clutch: $350
Throwout Bearing: $50
Misc Seals and timing belt: $400
Basic exhaust work (mate with stock downpipe): $150
Aftermarket Intake: $200
Intercooler and piping: $200
Blow off valve: $150
Walbro Fuel Pump: $100
Koyo 2-Row Radiator: $350
Basic Manual Boost Controller: $50
Boost Gauge: $60
Total: $3660 + OEM reliability

5sfte (cutting no corners or you will be sorry, speaking from experience)
Used CT26 Turbo: $175
Rebuild of CT26: $500
Low Compression Forged Rods/Pistons (either 8.5:1 or 9:1): $900
3sgte Manifold: $150 (if you can find one)
Quality 3sgte Downpipe: $250
Basic Exhaust Work (Mate with downpipe): $150
Standalone ECU (Megasquirt): $500
AFR Gauge: $175
Oil Pressure Gauge: $60
Water Temp Gauge: $60
Boost Gauge: $60
Full 5sfe OEM Gasket Kit: $400
Oil Filter Relocation: $100
Timing Belt and Water Pump Kit: $100
Dyno Tune: $600
Bearings: $100
Block Machined and Tanked: $150
Cylinder Head resurfaced: $45
RX7 Injectors: $150
Clutch: $350
Throwout Bearing: $50
Aftermarket Intake: $200
Intercooler and piping: $200
Blow off Valve: $150
Walbro Fuel Pump: $100
Koyo 2-Row Radiator: $350
Basic Manual Boost Controller: $50
Total: $6075 + check list engine + extra time rebuilding

The numbers don't lie. I am speaking from personal experience. I spent almost 2 months working on the 5s motor to get it ready for the turbo between measuring everything and waiting for parts to get rebuilt or come back from the machine shop. Then you have to worry about break in time and getting it a tune. Oh and by the way I could not find a base map for this build for the ECU so you are doing trial and error to set up a basic ECU map on a fresh motor just to get it to start. All of this is assuming you do not have a California emission motor, if you do, you will need a federal emissions cylinder head which could cost an extra $250-300 rebuilt. Unless you want to chance a fuel leak (and fire), you need a federal cylinder head so the injectors seat properly.

As for the 3sgte, once I got the wiring harness back which took about 3 weeks, I had the motor in and running (OEM ECU, no tuning required) in a weekend plus I was able to part out the 5s parts I did not need for some additional cash back. Then if you want to spend more money on the 3sgte there is a better aftermarket for it out there.

But comparing power Output let's take a look:
Stock 4th Gen 3sgte (13 psi, 91 Octane Fuel): 260 hp (stock numbers)
Cut no corners 5sfte (13 psi, 91 Octane Fuel): 229 hp (estimated from previous people's builds)

So you may argue, the 260 hp is at the crank not at the wheels so let's say there is the standard 15% drive loss to the 3s, that still is 221 hp. So you have paid almost $3K more for 8 more horsepower and way less reliability or aftermarket support.

But lets say you want more horsepower, both motors are running turbos that can be upgraded with billet wheels for more power or switched over to a T3/4 turbo. The catch is that if you want to upgrade the camshafts for a better torque curve the 5s has to get the existing cams reground which cost $800-900. I put BC cams in my motor for $560 plus $45 to have them machined for a cam sensor tooth.

The take away from my story is not to do a 5sfte but just beware and be prepared for challenges and extra cost. The only down side to a 3s swap is making sure you have a healthy used motor (again speaking from experience). If I had the knowledge I have now back then, I would have went 3sgte from the start. Plus, this was just not me with these problems, I have a friend who was doing a 5sfte build (forged rods and pistons) on a 5th gen Celica the same time I was and he ran into a lot of the same problems and now he has put a 2nd gen 3sgte in his car.

This post has been edited by HardHead93: Jun 3, 2017 - 9:33 PM
post Jun 3, 2017 - 10:34 PM
+Quote Post
Box



Enthusiast
*****
Joined Feb 23, '12
From Warrior, AL
Currently Offline

Reputation: 0 (0%)




Moral of the story, stop while you're ahead and go to a 3S-GTE. At least that's my take away from it.


--------------------
2001 Miata LS 5-speed
post Jun 4, 2017 - 10:26 AM
+Quote Post
HardHead93

Enthusiast
**
Joined Apr 7, '15
From New Mexico
Currently Offline

Reputation: 0 (0%)




QUOTE (Box @ Jun 3, 2017 - 11:34 PM) *
Moral of the story, stop while you're ahead and go to a 3S-GTE. At least that's my take away from it.


I think when most people think of doing a turbo on a 5sfe it is easy. I will just slap a turbo on and keep the boost low. It is not that easy. The 5sfe is and economy motor that was not meant to be turbo'ed in stock form. Don't get me wrong, it can be done but for all the money a person will spend doing that, you could spend that amount on a 3sgte and have a 500 hp motor if you wanted. I went into building a 5sfte with the wrong mentality. I thought I could build it cheap and it would take less time and be less complicated. That was not the case. Yes, there are success stories of the 5sfte but most of them I know of they got at most 1 and half to 2 years out of the motor before they had problems. Now most of those people are swapped to either 3SGTE's, 1MZFE's, or 2GRFE's for the OEM reliability and extra power. There is one plus to doing a 5sfte, you will get really good at pulling the motor our of the car because stuff is going to break. When I first started my 5sfte build it took me 2 days to get the motor out of the car. By the 5th time (in 2 years) of me pulling the motor, I was able to have it out in 3 hours (not sure that is a plus). laugh.gif

This post has been edited by HardHead93: Jun 4, 2017 - 10:32 AM
post Jun 6, 2017 - 2:04 PM
+Quote Post
DST94

Enthusiast
**
Joined May 11, '09
From California
Currently Offline

Reputation: 4 (100%)




QUOTE (HardHead93 @ Jun 4, 2017 - 8:26 AM) *
QUOTE (Box @ Jun 3, 2017 - 11:34 PM) *
Moral of the story, stop while you're ahead and go to a 3S-GTE. At least that's my take away from it.


I think when most people think of doing a turbo on a 5sfe it is easy. I will just slap a turbo on and keep the boost low. It is not that easy. The 5sfe is and economy motor that was not meant to be turbo'ed in stock form. Don't get me wrong, it can be done but for all the money a person will spend doing that, you could spend that amount on a 3sgte and have a 500 hp motor if you wanted. I went into building a 5sfte with the wrong mentality. I thought I could build it cheap and it would take less time and be less complicated. That was not the case. Yes, there are success stories of the 5sfte but most of them I know of they got at most 1 and half to 2 years out of the motor before they had problems. Now most of those people are swapped to either 3SGTE's, 1MZFE's, or 2GRFE's for the OEM reliability and extra power. There is one plus to doing a 5sfte, you will get really good at pulling the motor our of the car because stuff is going to break. When I first started my 5sfte build it took me 2 days to get the motor out of the car. By the 5th time (in 2 years) of me pulling the motor, I was able to have it out in 3 hours (not sure that is a plus). laugh.gif


When I do my AWD Conversion I'm going to create 2 milspec connections so that you can disconnect the engine super easy. I've also considered cutting the main frame up front and creating a bolt in section so that I can remove the entire front of the vehicle and only disconnect the harness and hoses.


--------------------
post Jun 7, 2017 - 9:41 PM
+Quote Post
HardHead93

Enthusiast
**
Joined Apr 7, '15
From New Mexico
Currently Offline

Reputation: 0 (0%)




QUOTE (DST94 @ Jun 6, 2017 - 2:04 PM) *
When I do my AWD Conversion I'm going to create 2 milspec connections so that you can disconnect the engine super easy. I've also considered cutting the main frame up front and creating a bolt in section so that I can remove the entire front of the vehicle and only disconnect the harness and hoses.


I love what Tweek'd Performance is doing with their engine harnesses for the 2jzgte swaps (not on our cars). They have it on a single plug that mounts to the firewall so you don't have to fish the wires in and out of the engine bay every time you need to remove the engine. I wish disconnecting the wiring could be that simple.

11 Pages V  « < 6 7 8 9 10 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Lo-Fi Version Time is now: March 28th, 2024 - 7:35 AM