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6G Celicas Forums _ Engine/Transmission/Maintenance _ redtop 3sge woe's

Posted by: rdyzz Sep 24, 2013 - 10:24 PM

the long

so my engine has been running like its on two maps or somthing. it started doing this after the last track event in july, i've been trying different things on it since then. its a redtop 3sge im wondering if anyone has ever had an engine of theirs do this. i feel like im chasing a ghost since every time i think i make break through it seems to come back. first diagnosis was on a dyno, testing for air fuel ratio, in 4th gear at wot around 2,000-4,000rpm the air fuel was in the 17's and then got to about 11.9 at redline. lowering the spark plug gap to 1.0mm seemed to have made a difference there. i then installed a fuel pump after and it seemed to drive well for the most part, i then replaced the fuel filter a week after the new walbro 190 pump. did an on car injector clean with an on car cleaner kit. the car still occasionally hesitates in 2nd gear or 3rd gear at 1/4 throttle if i was to give it quicker throttle inputs. at the moment i got more parts comming, COPS and a new vvti cam pulley. i just dont understand why an engine would do this, you can feel the difference in throttle response.

the short

symptoms. intermittent hesitation 1/4 throttle, or quick throttle inputs. drives like it has power, then drives like it lacks engine torque at times. certain times WOT in 1st from a roll will be super powerful you have to hold onto the steering wheel to keep car straight, other times same 1st gear roll will feel less powerful by quite a bit.

what i have done.
- fuel pump, walbro 190
- new fuel filter
- adjustable fuel pressure regulator set at 43psi
- new tps sensor
- tested with new water temp sensor
- tested 1mzfe maf, swapped maf, 1mzfe car still ran fine
- checked most connectors and repaired any cracks in insulation
- new 2 ga ground cable
- cleaned fuel injector with on car injector cleaning kit
- seafoam oil, ran in fuel tank also
- o2 sensor is 1 year old
- new spark plugs
- inspected vvti solenoid, its clean and functions
- checked for vacuum leaks

what i have not tried yet.
- new COP
- new vvti pulley
- knock sensor
- new ecu

i dont know if the cam angle or crank angle sensor has anything to do with this. it doesnt have any symptoms related to these two.

thanks for any insight.

Posted by: Batman722 Sep 24, 2013 - 10:36 PM

- fuel pump, walbro 190
- adjustable fuel pressure regulator set at 43psi
- new tps sensor

First, why did you do these things ^^ ?

Next, do you have the stock air box ?
What do you have for an exhaust ?
Any CEL ?
Have you done a compression test ?

Posted by: njccmd2002 Sep 24, 2013 - 11:17 PM

^^^ listen...... listen

Posted by: perkyshadow Sep 24, 2013 - 11:33 PM

When the BEAMS first went it, it has some crazy hesitation at times. The issue was a slightly frayed O2 sensor wire. Last month, it was idling high, and didn't act quite right. It was a stuck Idle Air Control Valve. I had several guys suggest the IACV, and they noted that it can cause several different issues!

Posted by: rdyzz Sep 25, 2013 - 7:53 AM

compression tested 180, 175, 175, 170. it was just me cranking on my odyssey 680 and no one to look at the gauge.

the fuel stuff was changed in due to the dyno tuner being a friend and ase certified tech suggesting the old 220,000 mile original fuel pump did not have the initial burst of pressure and thus cuausing the lean initial throttle. the car was like this after a track day, 5 20min heats.

so i chased the fuel system more since at first the walbro did improve the initial throttle response and torque, however somtimes when it ran strong with partial throttle the transition to full throttle almost seemed it leaned the car out or over flooded the car. and other times when its less responsive the transition to wot will accelerate like crazy.

when it drives strong it drives like it should making you feel "this is how it should be", but when its bad you can tell.

also yes i know my iac is acting up, i can hear it sounding like a drill when you barely touch the trigger. just didint think it had this much affect on the car since it just bypass air for idle. all the master techs at the toyota i work at say the IAC has nothing to do with response or power thats why i never bothered to look here. somtimes engine idles at 500rpm.

exhaust is 2 1/4 with an mangnaflow muffler.

intake is factory maf section cut for a cone filter, i've ran the sard and 1mzfe before this with no difference. i also have no cel.

Posted by: BonzaiCelica Sep 25, 2013 - 3:59 PM

dude all N/A 6gc have same fuel pump! i learned the hard way don't worry.

aahh fail i thought we were talking about 6gc

Posted by: richee3 Sep 25, 2013 - 5:41 PM

He has a Corolla. It was necessary to replace the fuel pump.

Posted by: rdyzz Sep 25, 2013 - 5:51 PM

so i sprayed some carb cleaner into the iac port and it seemed to have made a difference. without the air filter and the tb exposed i can clearly hear the drill like noise.
i took it off to clean it further. it seems like the motor might of been from a different car since whoever had this engine before me did this. the motor seemed to have been modified to fit.

Posted by: richee3 Sep 25, 2013 - 6:54 PM

You can use an ISCV from a 2000-05 Toyota Echo. They can be picked up from Rock Auto for like $150 or from Toyota for like $250.

Posted by: rdyzz Sep 25, 2013 - 8:53 PM

thanks richee3, well see if this does anything. i took off the iac and cleaned it pretty well. the pn on the motor is 22270-7437 and the last number is shaved, the beams ends with a 0. looks like whoever owned it before me did somthing to this motor. the area the screws goes on has been cut, so they can turn the motor more counter clockwise, if that makes any sense. the screws are holding it by washers instead now. when i took the thing apart the gasket seemed longer than normal, i had to run to the other side of town to another toyota dealership to get new gaskets.

since the cleaning it doesnt seem to make the drill like sqeak anymore. hopefully this does it.

btw richee do you just use the motor off the echo? i notice the 1zzfe ones look really similar, except it has 2 coolant hose and maybe the screw placement might be different.

Posted by: richee3 Sep 25, 2013 - 9:19 PM

I haven't had a chance (translated: funds) to replace mine yet. I know the stock ISCV can be turned and adjusted like most TPS's. My ISCV is just about done for. My idle isn't far off but isn't great right now. Cleaning it helped slightly but it's beyond cleaning this time.

Has the BEAMS Owners Group been down for you too? I usually check it every morning but haven't been able to pull it up lately. I've just given up the last few days.

Posted by: rdyzz Sep 25, 2013 - 9:46 PM

beams owners sites been down for me as well, the car drove well for two days and sunday it started acting up again. shifting gear at times cause a stumble when i add throttle. this is very annoying i was gonna buy a spare motor cause i thought this engine was dying, but when it drives right its so enjoyable and it convinces me to keep trying to figure out whats wrong with it. spending money on the afpr stuff and cops and vvti pulley has all added up close to what a spare would cost lol.

theres a track event next week i wanted to drive in, thats why i was pushing so hard to fix this, but now it looks like i may have to wait for the winter to pass and fix this during then if its not the idle control.

Posted by: Outsider Sep 25, 2013 - 11:41 PM

This link still works for me

Posted by: aspen Sep 26, 2013 - 9:18 AM

The BEAMS Owners Group URL Changed. The Google indexes haven't caught up yet.
If you start from, you can get there.

Posted by: richee3 Sep 26, 2013 - 9:57 AM

Nice, that explains it. I keep a tab open in my phone for 6gc, my350z, and the BEAMS Owners Group. Never really bother to navigate the rest of

Posted by: rdyzz Sep 26, 2013 - 6:02 PM

thanks guys for adding the link i thought the site was down.

so after cleaning it yesterday, the morning seemed like it drove strong. then at lunch time i went for a drive and it did the same thing again. so after work i went and got some new fuel return line and reinstalled the oem fpr, since the aeromotive one had 6 AN fittings and some earls 90 degree swivel fittings to adapt to it, but was leaking no matter how i clean the mating surface or tighten it up. actually i had it snug and had the car idling and i would tighten little by little to see if there was less leaking, but it got to the point i thought the fittings were going to strip and it was still seeping fuel. so i decided to reinstall the oem fpr since it wasnt broken in the 1st place.

i also got new bolts to go into the iac motor, it used some 5 point torx or something like that. i took it out and examined it, spun it and it made sense why i was getting a drill like sound. it was catching a little on the inside, the bearing also did not feel smooth. installed a new o ring, greased it up some and reclocked the position of the iac, since there was a v cut in the ears of the bolt holes, whoever had it before wanted a lower idle? i started the car and warmed the car up idle is now at 850-900 warm. as im typing this im waiting for the ecu to reset, we'll see how this goes. either way just examining it has led me to believe it definitely needs to be replaced. if it doesnt work i believe the electric motor has failed and is not able to adjust the magnet to move the door open/close anymore.

Posted by: rdyzz Sep 26, 2013 - 8:21 PM

so with the ecu reset, the car started out with a 3k rpm idle then went to 2k and stayed there for 10min. i drove it and it dropped down to 1,500 rpms but was surging when i would stop for the stop lights on 2 instances. after 20min it idles now at 1000 rpms. gonna have to order a new one now. this ones gone im sure of it.

Posted by: rdyzz Oct 3, 2013 - 3:32 PM

found out the 2001 honda civic 1.7L iac is basically identical to the beams redtop. so i purchased one and am using it with excellent results.

Posted by: Smaay Oct 3, 2013 - 3:49 PM

wow thats an awesome find!

Posted by: richee3 Oct 3, 2013 - 4:02 PM

That's some seriously cool stuff. thumbsup.gif If you don't mind me asking, how much did it cost? I still need to replace mine.

Posted by: rdyzz Oct 3, 2013 - 4:16 PM

it was $156 at the local oreilys, but since its for a civic its probably readily available cheaper through other sources.

Posted by: richee3 Oct 4, 2013 - 3:48 AM

Nice, I think the Echo ISCV I was looking at was around $160 from Rock Auto. I'll do some shopping around for a Civic ISCV.

Posted by: njccmd2002 Oct 4, 2013 - 7:24 AM

I'm assuming the civic has 2 nipples did u just plug one

Posted by: Smaay Oct 4, 2013 - 6:51 PM

thats wierd there is only one. water needs to flow through the IAC.

Posted by: rdyzz Oct 4, 2013 - 8:57 PM

the one with the two port is the civic one, the one with the single port is the 3sge's. it only has one port cause it has a thermostatic water inlet for the other one. also the only reason there is for coolant to flow in the iac is to keep it and the throttle body from freezing in the winter. if you don't drive your car in the winter or live in a cold state it wouldn't be a big deal to have those not hooked up.

Posted by: Smaay Oct 4, 2013 - 9:27 PM

QUOTE (rdyzz @ Oct 4, 2013 - 6:57 PM) *
the one with the two port is the civic one, the one with the single port is the 3sge's. it only has one port cause it has a thermostatic water inlet for the other one. also the only reason there is for coolant to flow in the iac is to keep it and the throttle body from freezing in the winter. if you don't drive your car in the winter or live in a cold state it wouldn't be a big deal to have those not hooked up.

im well aware of what the water flow in the IAC is for, but perhaps you can enlighten me about the thermostatic water inlet?

Posted by: rdyzz Oct 4, 2013 - 10:07 PM

the coolant passage must be rerouted in the throttle body. i have not done much analyzing of it since i installed the iac with the throttle body on the car. here's a picture of what it looks like in the link. i would imagine that it just opens up when the coolant gets hot enough like all thermostat related items. why toyota did this i dont really know. the line that goes to it is from the oil cooler coolant hose, so i'm guess it's hot and once it gets hot enough it flows to the cool iac side which is on the same elbow as the water temp sensor.

Posted by: richee3 Dec 31, 2013 - 6:19 PM

I replaced my ISCV today with the Honda Civic ISCV. Sure enough, it's virtually identical and works perfectly.

Comparing it to the BEAMS ISCV, the only difference is the coolant ports. On the BEAMS, the coolant goes in through the throttle body, circulates around, and exits through the ISCV. However, on the Civic the coolant enters and exits through the ISCV. This is a VERY easy fix- simply cap off one of the coolant ports on the Civic ISCV.

Civic on the left, BEAMS on the right.

New ISCV installed and photographic proof that it plugs right in.

I reset the ECU while I installed the new ISCV, then started the car up and let it idle and warm up. Everything runs much smoother now, no more occasional pulse on startup, and I should hopefully see an improvement in MPG as well since my mileage has been going down while the ISCV got worse and worse.

Posted by: enderswift Dec 31, 2013 - 6:54 PM

I wish Honda and Toyota did this more often!

Posted by: BonzaiCelica Sep 9, 2023 - 2:43 AM

replaced this with an Honda AC delco brand. It caused a idle surging condition and oil control valve code. I do not advise to replace it with anything but OEM unit.

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