Hey ya'all!
A series of questionable decisions have led me to getting accepted to my first LeMons race coming up at Thompson, CT in August. Not much time left, lots to do.
If anybody is seriously interested, I'm still looking for the 4th driver. Hit me up.
The car came from 6gc community - I picked up Rymaster's 96 GT (http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=97064&hl=)
Car has an issue with the gearbox - makes really funny noises. I suspect something off with the diff. Drivetrain is already out of the car, gearbox separated, waiting for me to get wrenching on.
Cage installation is lined up for a week from now.
Need to completely redo the brakes - rebuild rears, replace fronts with dual-piston calipers, new rotors and pads.
Replace wheel bearings as a precaution.
Figure out what tires I'll use.
Finally, all the safety bs - kill switch is a must, and I'd like to plumb fire extinguisher and cool suit in if funds and time allows. If not, hand held extinguisher and sweaty balls will have to do.
Tons more crap I'm sure will come up.
Interior is getting completely gutted, so feel free to inquire if you need parts (I'll be posting a FS thread, will put the link in here). Any money I make back on selling parts I can use towards "performance mods", and I'm looking to get some decent lowering springs (no thanks to noname crap). If you have a set of such springs collecting dust - talk to me.
If you've done LeMons before and have suggestions, fire away.
I've always wanted to try it, but it's pretty pricey just to get on the track.
Entry: $600 per car, $175 per driver, $75 for non-driving crew members. (Each team must have 4-6 drivers.) This fee covers registration, track time, paddock pass, track insurance, on-site ambulance crew, commemorative crap, and anything else we come up with by then. Non-driving crew members get all the same bennies except track time.
Each driver must also have a valid Lemons Competition Membership, which is $60.
Not driving or wrenching for a team? General-access paddock passes are always available at the gate–they’re $30 and good all weekend. Kids under 16 are free.
Oh, there's nothing cheap about racing on a race track - but this is really, really cheap in comparison to just about anything else considering the amount of track time you get. (aside from other crapcan events)
The entry fee is only the beginning. You have to factor in actual race expenses:
Tires: at least one set, preferably two per event - $300-1000
Brakes: pads and rotors - $200-500
Gas: 6-8 gal per hour * 14 hours = $250-300, plus another $100 on towing your junk to and from track
Food and lodging: depending on your taste, on-track camping at $50 + beer & burgers, or hotels and actual meals
Incidentals: pray for none
We're talking another $1000-$2000 (to be split among drivers) per event.
If you're starting out and don't have SFI race suit and helmet, add $500-800, cool suit shirt is $150-250, SFI or FIA rated neck restraint if you don't have it. $300-600 + helmet attachment at $50-100 each.
Cost to build car?
$500 for car
$2000 for roll cage
$500-1000 for fire extinguisher and radio communication,
$300 for cool suit (or homebrew)
$600 and up for racing seat + harness
Few hundred to change all fluids, wheel bearings, other maintenance items
So yea, $3-4k (split among 4-6 drivers) per weekend and $5k to build a car (for the owner with cash burning a hole in the pocket, I guess), and another grand for decent/comfortable personal safety equipment if you're just starting out. If the car survives, the costs go down for subsequent events, hopefully.
But, compare that to a SpecWhatever car: $8-15k to build a car, $800+ per event in fees and expendables (use more expensive tires/pads/etc) to run 2 or 3 20-40 minute races, vs Lemons where you get 3+ hours per driver. Not to mention, you are required to have a race license, which can easily cost a few grand to procure (no license needed for LeMons).
http://mazdaracers.com/topic/4771-estimated-costs-to-break-into-sm/
And any pro-am race series? If you have to ask, you can't afford it. (Hint: $40-60k per car, $5-10k weekends at the very bare minimum)
Oh trust me, I grew up around motorsports... My dad had the IRS at his door because his priorities were his dirt late model.
Well, she's ready for that roll cage. All interior, sun roof, dash w/ dash wiring out. (ignore driver's door - the whole door is getting replaced) Picking 'er up this weekend.
Got my race suit in the mail the other day. Radios ordered. Still need to decide on and order the seats. And, deciding on my head and neck restraint SRH Flex, NecksGen Rev, or the good old HANS Sport? Any suggestions from experienced racers out there? SRH Flex looks best to me, but some folks have complained that it's uncomfortable to some due to lack of padding. NecksGen has expensive mounting hardware (I need to buy multiple pieces to accommodate multiple drivers) and some argue that it's not "as safe". Good ol' HANS Sport is pretty cheap these days, but does it stand up well to the new generation of competitors?
You may want to get in tough with Mike (qatar11.) He's the only other 6gc LeMons car I know of.
http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=90882&hl=
http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=76261&hl=
http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=69883&hl=
He's got a few other LeMons posts but those are the ones that catch my attention.
...And the cage is in!
Had Chris Howard up in MA do it. I'm very pleased with the results, would have no issue recommending him to anyone. Easy to work with, quick turnaround, doesn't nickel and dime you over every inch of tubing like some shops I called around.
Transmission torn apart. Didn't find anything obviously wrong with it. Diff backlash is out of spec, about 20 thou vs 6-12 the book calls for. Had a known good spare (from my Camry LSD install), threw it in along with that diff's bearings. Put it all back together already - should fix it.
Time to refresh the engine a bit and stuff it all back in the car this weekend. Wish me luck!
This is awesome! Been debating on doing this when it comes to Michigan or ohio next year hopefully. Buying little by little helps out alot.
Building a race car in a little over a month is a ridiculous undertaking. Makes me appreciate all the other folks doing big project that much more.
Ordered a ton of crap, a lot of which I put in hours of research into. The seat was a big issue (and still is) - turns out, the seat one picks if far from guaranteed to be in stock. Had my mind set on a specific FIA tagged fiberglass seat - nowhere to be found once time came to ordering. Here's a partial list of crap for the car:
Maintenance: WP and TB kit, all seals, radiator hoses, Accessory belt w/o AC, 170F thermostat, rad cap, camber bolts, brake rebuild kits, Tein springs, air filter, EBC Yellow brake pads.
Yet to order/decide: new rotors, wheel bearings, ball joints, struts
Safety items: roll cage padding (SFI cert for around helmet, reg high density for other areas), fire extinguisher with bracket, seat (ended up going with Aluminum Ultra Racing one), seat sliders, adjustable seat back brace, steering wheel (MOMO, already had NRG quick disconnect)
Radio communications: decided to build my own kit, had to order radio, external antenna & battery delete kit for car, larger antenna and headset for spotter, in-car harness with PTT, driver helmet kits (going with NASCAR style over IMSA).
Cool suit stuff: had my DW make me a shirt, but making my own cooler, so had to decide on and get all the parts for how I wanted to plumb it. Fittings, pump, quick disconnects.
Personal safety: Frontal head restraint, helmet anchors for it for all team members (will share one FHR). Had to get/make sure everyone had valid suits, valid SA helmets, gloves, shoes, SFI socks.
Got some work done on the car, too! Finished the AC delete, patched up the holes from removing evaporator core from inside (keeping rest of HVAC for now to defog windshield if necessary). Welded up the hole in the firewall (all holes must be closed). Bolted in the fire extinguisher. Replaced the dash harness and windshield vent (they're both bolted to the dash, which is not going back in). Cut off random dash brackets. Fixed hood latch (was stuck). Cutout the OEM seat brackets, and banged up the floor pan to move the seat towards the center as much as possible (helmet clearance to roll cage must be 2+ inches). Fabbed up a square tube square which will locate the seat to the floor.
Did TB and WP on the engine, along with all the seals (rear main, front crank, cam, oil pump, oil pump o-ring, VC, spark plug tube seals). All valve clearances are within spec - thank goodness. BUT, and there's always a BUTT, found metal shavings in the oil pan as I was about to stick that on and call engine done. This prompted further investigation. Took off rod caps - sure enough, hardly any bearing left, with the rest corresponding to the shavings in the pan. Took main caps off, a little better but still beyond serviceable.
Placed overnight order for rod and main bearings. RA f-ed it up - shipped day later. Then FedEx f-ed it up. Overnight order that was placed Monday morning is still not here on Wednesday night. F me.
To make matters worse, UPS f-ed up my order for seat sliders - it went from IL to MO, OK, TX, then back to PA and NY. Ok, fine, I said. Get the box - giant hole in the side of it, nothing but packing material in the box. Called the vendor (Pyrotect), and while those guys are nice, they certainly don't understand the concept or "hurry" and "urgency" - After being informed of the issue Monday, I still have not received a tracking number for replacement.
Saferacer.com also messed up my order, but at least they managed to get it straight on time.
So, I have no engine to go in the car, and no way to mount the race seat. 8 days to race. Moral of the story - 1 month for a racecar build is re-DICK-ulous as you run a good chance of getting screwed over by the vendors. Engine still on engine stand. At least the transmission is back together, and, I'm hoping here, fixed.
LeMons requires OE hood in their rules. Crap. E-mailed them about by ultra laggera VIS racing carbon fiber hood, and fortunately they showed mercy on my poor soul and said "whatever".
Other weird LeMons rules?
- Can't have any coolant, water only. Coolant is slippery when spilled on asphalt. Also, must have a drip pan when fueling. Like, wtf? Cool suit cooler must be secured with TWO ratcheting straps.
Planning to get the brakes serviced tonight, let's see how that goes.
Still need:
Well, engine bearings replaced, engine and all related drivetrain components back in the car
Replace exhaust b-pipe (flex pipe section fell off somewhere on I-95 while towing the shell home from roll cage install)
Wire in electrical cut off (must kill bat and alt) Found a build thread on SC300 where the guy wired the alt into kill switch from the fuse box rather than running wires to alt itself. Genius idea.
Disable steering lock (required)
Add tow hooks
Install springs (if I ever get to it)
Install new wheel bearings (if have time)
Hood pins for CF hood
Wiring for radio (probably going to install regular 12v socket)
Wiring for cool suit - need to have switch so that driver can turn it off
Oil pressure gauge (would be very nice to have)
Front end bolted back together (fenders, bumper, etc)
Camber bolts installed, alignment
All suspension and brake components re-torqued to spec
Did I mention 8 days left?
Very productive day: installed rod bearings and caps (mains were installed last night), buttoned up the bottom of the engine (oil pickup, pump, oil pan), reinstalled TB, set timing, buttoned up TB cover and related, rear main retainer, installed new spark plugs, low temp (170F) thermostat.
Primed the oil pump by spinning it with a drill before installing the TB - it worked! Had to spin it pretty fast for it to suck the vacuum and start pumping oil. Then watched the oil start coming out back - forgot that the flywheel bolts seal the rear holes on the engine. Oops. Other than that, worked great.
Engine off the engine stand. Flywheel and clutch back on, transmission mated to the engine and bolted together.
Fell short of the goal of putting the engine back in the car today. Bummer. I'm exhausted though, so that will have to happen tomorrow morning. Then reconnect all the plumbing and start the engine, find out whether the transaxle is fixed. Have to install the seat tomorrow (finally have the sliders), and tend to the brakes. If I can make it all happen, will go to track on Monday for car shakedown.
Just put a snowmobile power train in it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wS8W8b9_7A
Good Luck with it all! I hope to hear more from this thread as I am auto crossing for the first time in my celi in a week as well. Completely different scale but just as excited.
awesome!!! let us know all the weird rules they have
Alright, got back home last night. The build ran into a ton of problems, but I'm very proud to say that we did get the car on the track, albeit for only few hours.
Got to the track late Friday night, got up early with a short list of things to finish. But, failed tech - roll cage spreader plates did not meet the spec, as their rules require 24 sq. in. plates (this is necessary when mounting to sheet metal to spread the force). I had the cage professionally built and the builder mounted a smaller spreader plate to the frame rail (much stronger than sheet metal), but LeMons did not want to take that into consideration. This required welding, and took us a few hours to sort.
After that, went to put in rear EBC Yellow pads, could not retract the piston into caliper for the new pads, had to take the calipers apart and hone the bore, clean up the piston. Fortunately I had brought my case of "SSTs" and had the hone and some sand paper scraps.
Got the car on track shortly after 1pm. Our second driver almost immediately got black flagged for going off track. This would not be a big deal if he actually noticed the black flag rather than continuing blowing by repeated black flags for 20min, and additionally spinning the car in that time. The spotter (me at that time) also failed to notice the flag as the black flags are only shown at two of the flag stations, which we didn't know. By the time he pitted, LeMons officials had some pent up anger to unleash upon us and grilled us for about half an hour. Even though a first black flag is usually not a problem at LeMons, blowing said flag for extended period of time is high up on the list of worst offenses, right behind speeding past corner workers and causing a massive wreck. Not attending the Friday rookie meeting because we arrived at 11:30pm did not help our cause.
We lost time at every pit stop/driver change as small things kept creeping up - belts needed to be adjusted for our skinniest driver, we did not have fuel ready and had to wait at the pump, more belt adjustments, fluid top-offs. In the end, all 4 drivers got at least 30 min of track time before the engine blew the head gasket and stalled/seized literally 100 yards after the checkered flag on day 1. Everybody was exhausted from the endless sprint to get the car ready for the track, and there was no energy left to tear into the motor Saturday night. It cooled off and started later in the night, ran with no problems, so we hoped for the best. Of course, the next day on track the car started overheating and lost all coolant within few minutes. We topped it off a few times to get another 10 laps out of it, but by this point it overheated so severely that the spark plug wires melted to the plugs and the distributor cap started melting away from the cylinder head, and we called it in. With about 4 hours to go in the race, we made an attempt to tear the thing apart and throw a new HG on it, but about 2 hr into it, and seeing how much overheating went on, we realized we were not making it back on track that day and threw in the towel.
The main goal of this whole endeavor was to get as much seat time as possible. We walked away with a massive amount of racing experience instead.
The car ran like a champ. Brakes were fantastic, car held a line in the corner despite the blown shocks and all-season tires. Gearbox worked great, and everyone was impressed with the build. Everybody went home unharmed, wiser, and holding memories they'll never forget of their first real race. The car is not wrecked or damaged, and will be back on track in a month or two once I address the engine situation.
Thank you all for tagging along! More to come.
Sounds like you guys had an awesome time! It sucks that you ran into a few problems but it sounds like the car held up very well considering the abuse of being on a track. And now you know what to expect and how to prepare for the next one!
Lot of work, commitment, follow-through. Good stuff.
Hello from Australia!
Me and a group of mates also have a 6gc and are in the process of getting it ready for lemons in April 2018!
Any tips and tricks would be awesome. At this stage we are doing
Double thick radiator
Oil cooler
Timing belt, water pump cam seals oil pump seal and crankshaft seals
Fuel filter, oil filter air filter, gearbox oil, diff oil and engine (usual stuff)
Rotors and pads
If money allows we will do springs and shocks
Let me know what issues you guys have so we can try and avoid them
Cheers Slavie!
Yer defo not doing nay engine mods, was tossing up the head gasket, but will do it now, we have the time to get it done and we do have a very high mileage engine.
Brakes we are looking at a few options but going down the race pad route for sure, not worth skimping on these.
Were looking at some coilovers for the suspension, but unsure if we will bother with bushings or swaybars.
A few of the drivers in the team, including myself, do a lot track days, but adjusting for endurance driving is going to be the challenge!
will also look into doing the bottom end bearings too
No problem.
Another thing that I did not do that is a must: MIRRORS. For next race, I'm going with a convex center mirror (seems like people recommend that over "wink" mirrors), convex side mirror mounted inside the cabin (if you get side swiped and your outside mirrors are gone, you're screwed without these).
I'm also planning to take off the rear hatch completely (during race, bolt it back for transport) to improve rearward visibility, as the cage tubing does get in the way enough for you to wish for more visibility.
Seat was also a pain in the rear, so make sure to get that project going sooner than later. 6gc's are small cars, and you have to fit a driver with a helmet on his head (+2" easily), and have enough clearance around the cage that is covered in impact absorbent material (at least 1" thick per regs). I had to bang the transmission tunnel quite a bit, but there is a stupid strong support beam going under the seat area so I was not able to make as much room there as I would have liked. We did pass tech, but our tallest driver still had issues where he was not able to turn his head to the left without hitting the cage padding.
If you guys have some track day experience, your biggest obstacle will be learning the art of "traffic management". LeMons events, at least in my area, always sell out and the field is packed tight. I mean, imagine 100+ race cars on a 2 mile course, all with various performance levels. Cars stacked 3 deep going into the corner, constant passing everywhere. This being endurance racing, fastest lap is irrelevant; how many laps you clock at the end of the day is what it's all about.
The level of competition is higher than you might imagine, both on track (though you do see plenty of slow rookies) and in terms of car preparation. Sure, everybody talks about the idiots that blew their engine and did a heroic swap on track with a junkyard motor. Yes, that does happen, but only to a handful of teams here and there. Most of the field come prepared and run start to finish. The $500 car idea is total bs that is impossible to adhere to. The organizers know that, which is why you have the bs inspection, but the idea is an irresistible marketing draw. The reality is closer to the ChumpCar rules, where any OEM part replacement modifications are allowed, and only the performance modifications count against you. Such as, head gasket and engine bearings don't count (and nobody asks anyway, as good portion of the field runs with rebuilt motors), but coilovers, non-original turbochargers and/or souped up motors sure do.
Endurance racing is a truly humbling experience where you get out what you put in, and your effort and skill bears a number that is your finishing position. There's no such thing as getting lucky.
Quick question, what oil are you going to run race day?
Also what odd you running? Struggling to find any for the st204
I ran stock 10W-30. Once I install the oil temp/pressure gauge I might change that based on what I'm getting, but stock oil for now.
LeMons Celica lives on!
Dusted her off a bit and went to a NASA HPDE at Summit Point raceway. Did great all weekend, all temps in check, handling much improved.
And by dusted her off I mean:
- "New" 136k mile engine from a junkyard
- New KYB shocks all around (inserts in front)
- Suspension Techniques springs to replace the Tein Springs (STs are stiffer)
- Suspension Techniques front + rear anti-sway bars
- New Halo seat
- Welded up the cage some more (to comply with some dumb rules)
- New CV output shaft seal
- New radiator drain cock o-ring
- Engine oil pan re-sealed
- A bunch of wiring fixes
- Replaced alternator (died, perhaps when the old engine overheated severely) and alternator connector (plastic disintegrated)
For anyone who's deleted the AC, keep in mind that you need to short the AC pressure switch or your fans will be running on max at all times with key on.
Looks like some fun.
thats my neck of the woods! If you go out next time lmk! I was prepping my car for the season that weekend but had a few friends running that event
Threw a video of one lap up on YouTube. Not the fastest of my laps, but I'm ok with the time given that this was a fairly new build and I haven't been on track in almost 2 years. 300 threadwear cheap-ish summer tires (Riken).
https://youtu.be/jDqfFiiywKU
That's a really cool video man, what software/hardware are you using?
UPDATE!
The Celica has endured through it's second LeMons race back in August, again at Thompson, CT event.
The morning of race day, the speedometer stopped working. Who cares, tach and temp gauge is all you really need in a race car. Start the race.
2hr in after the first refueling (engine required to be shut off for refueling), the car would not start. Jumped it, it died 100yd later. Battery is dead, no juice from alternator. Given that the last race we had killed an alternator (I properly tested that fact at home and replaced the alternator with another one I had in the pile), we immediately assumed the alt had quit again, though we did not have the time to properly test it. Boy was I pissed when a new, $240 alternator from local AZ did not charge either. FML. Threw in a new battery and sent it back out to finish the day. We decided to charge batteries from the tow rig and swap them every few hours.
How did the "new" motor do? Predictably, it blew the head gasket. But see, as a sign of growing strength in our relationship, I brought with me a Graphite gasket and a new set of head bolts this time, along with all the toolage required to perform the surgery. Even though we had 4 souls (though in sum only about 2-1/4 worth of competent mechanic), the HG took us about 8 hours to do.
Fired right up. On the second try, that is, after we realized the engine harness wanted to be re-connected to the ECU.
Next day, new HG is in and we're feeling good. Battery fully charged, start the race. The whole gauge cluster is dead this time - no tach, no temp gauge, nothing. I did 3 laps just to test the motor, but with new HG and no temp gauge I did not want to run the car. Commence electrical troubleshooting. Turns out, the exciter wire for the alt is powered off the same IGN-ON circuit as the speedo, and that circuit is not getting power. F that - hard wired constant 12v into the circuit and sent it back out on the track to finish the last 4 hours trouble free.
Here's a novel idea: a bunch of geniuses replacing the head gasket at the race track padlock instead of racing:
Through the power of miracle alone, back on track Sunday. Yes, that is an E28 about to blow by us as if we were dragging a boat anchor (a recurring theme for us with the genuinely bone stock 5S-FE in my car):
Welp, who wants an update? Celica is ready for action again.
First outing after the extended Red Flag event proudly brought to you by COVID-19. LeMons Celica did not disappoint - chewed the wheel bearing right out. But hey, nothing a trip to Harbor Freight for some front wheel drive bearing kit, snap ring pliers, and the ****tiest wheel bearing known to mankind from national auto parts chain can't fix.
Also, some recent pics of the car. Was trying to get classic car insurance on this turd, but Hargerty turned me down - too many colors on the outside they said.
You're probably better off for it too... Doesn't Hagerty have milage limits?
IIRC, they tried telling me that driving the 205 to work ONCE a week was excessive for a classic car.
I told them to pound sand.
The LeMons Celica finished a LeMons race!!! Like, without blowing the engine or loosing any other bits. The worst problem we had was we ran out of brake pad - used up 1.5 sets of EBC Yellows in the back, and about a set in the front. I did not have any more spare rears, so we had to baby it the last few hours with the brake pad squealers fully engaged.
Finished 33/79 overall, 16/46 in our class B. 419 laps x 1.7mi.
Tires got chewed up pretty good, though looks like they'll last another race. 300TW Summer Tire. Thing is, even with this tires we could not get the brake pads to stay cool enough (the increased pad wear was due to pads overheating), so 200tw tires are out of question until I can sort out the brakes. Will try brake cooling ducts first, see how much it helps.
So what was the secret to finishing the race without overheating? Pressure tested the cooling system with air, found that the radiator was leaking where the steel auto trans cooler hookup ports go into the plastic rad cover, and heater hoses (engine to firewall) were both seeping. All 3 replaced, system holds pressure.
Now onto the radiator cap. The stock cap is rated for 0.9 bar, or about 13psi, which is in theory good for water boiling temp of 245F. In reality, the cap lets loose a little earlier than that, esp if it's older. In my testing with radiator cap tester, the cap could only be relied on to hold about 9psi, so 235F boiling temp. Short on time, I got the cap from a MkIV Supra, which is same as Celica but stock holds 1.1bar pressure, or 16psi. That one in my testing held about 13psi steady. There are aftermarket "performance" 1.3bar caps our there, but I didn't have time to order one for the race. 1.1bar Supra cap served me well.
For the overheating rear brakes you might need to either soften the front suspension to allow more brake dive or get an adjustable proportioning valve. Solid disks just don't shed heat well enough, a hotter pad or a pad with less friction might also help but options are limited.
Can you not install a single channel prop valve on each rear line? I mean...right?
Brake cooling ducts may help but solid discs just have a hard time shedding heat. Cross drilled rotors could help maybe. I didn't mean softer like softer I meant softer like lower friction pads, the less friction the less heat let the fronts do more of the work. Yellows are fairly aggressive pads, more aggressive than is really needed out back.
But back to the mighty ducts, I'm not sure where you'd be able to pull air from for cooling. I suppose you could hack some ducts onto the sides of the car and just run tubes through the floor pan but I doubt that's what you want to do. I suppose possibly building some scoops under the car may work, maybe some NACA style ducts to pull air to the brakes could be a thing, I'm just not sure for rear.
for the rear I would just take some aluminum sheet and form some sort of scoop to direct some under body air to the rotor/caliper. Or just use a 2ft section of ducting hose and tie it to the control arm and direct it towards the nose. Thats a quicker fix
I had pretty much forgotten about this car but it popped into my head the other day so I figured I’d poke around on here to see what became of it and man, Slavie does not disappoint! This thread is awesome!
I’m glad you’re putting the car to good use Slavie! Much better than any other life it would’ve of had. That little Celica was always fun to bang gears in, even if it wasn’t the fastest car, it was just so enjoyable to drive.
Keep it up! And thank you for posting the vids too!
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