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> MS3PRO EVO on 4th Gen 3sgte
post Dec 11, 2017 - 10:19 AM
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HardHead93

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QUOTE (lagos @ Dec 10, 2017 - 10:46 AM) *
Can you post up a before and after of the ignition timing map?
Any reason why you had it tuned on a dyno jet versus something like a mustang?


Lagos I will do even more than that. I was planning to do a comparison of different 3sgte tunes and hopefully spark a discussion. As to why I went with Dyno Jet, that is what the tuners are using around here. Both of the dyno numbers I posted are from 2 different dynos but both of them are Dyno Jets. I think one of the shops in El Paso, TX is switching to a different dyno so I may look into what they have once the install is done.

Through the course of my standalone ECU 5sfte and 3sgte adventures I have been lucky enough to get a hold of multiple tuning files for the 3sgte. After getting my Gen 4 3sgte tuned and seeing that the power numbers were different from another person's tuned Gen 4 3sgte, I wanted to know what was different. I will be comparing Ignition Timing tables and target AFRs. I will not be comparing fueling tables because depending on injectors and TunerStudio settings those tables can look vastly different. Let's take a look.

Here is the base tables that TunerStudio and the Megasquirt Ignition table generated for me:
Then Ignition Timing
Then AFR

Here is the final tables that my tuner built. This tune produced 252 hp and 251 lb-ft torque:
Now Ignition Timing
Now AFR

Now let's compare it to 2 other tune files. Here is one of the exact same engine but from a different tuner. This tune produced 290 hp and 274 lb-ft of torque.
pitcelica Ignition TIming
pitcelica AFR

What is different between these tunes? The base tune generated has the richest AFRs in boost (over 100 kPa). The timing is very conservative under 3000 rpms then it looks like the tool generates a very basic timing map above that. My final tune is a little bit more lean with AFRs and the timing is mapped out for how my motor performed on the dyno and on the street. Now comparing my final tune to the higher horsepower tune you see that his tuner went even leaner with AFRs and even more aggressive with the timing. While I am running 11.4 degrees at max boost, the other engine is running 13-16 degrees at max boost. Since he is running more timing than me his car will have more power when boosting when compared to mine. Also the higher horsepower 3sgte is using table switching to have a higher resolution timing table. Does the higher resolution make a difference? Not sure that depends on who you talk to.

You are probably seeing this and wondering, why did my tuner play it so save? I stayed and watched the tuner work the whole time during the tuning process and he was having problems with knock at peak boost so he had to add more fuel and take out timing to fix it. I think part of the problem was the software was reading different AFRs than actuals. I have since corrected that problem with a custom inc file. I bet if I get with the tuner again he may be able to put some timing back in and I might pick up some horsepower. The good thing about this situation is I know as of right now my tune is not on the edge of safe and a blown motor.

To continue this discussion, lets look at a tune for a Gen 2 3sgte.
Lagos Ignition Timing
Lagos AFR

Now the Gen 2 has a 8.5:1 compression compared to the Gen 4's 9.0:1. This means that the Gen 2 can run more timing on boost without seeing knock. The bad news is that the car will feel more sluggish out of boost. You can also see that based on the AFR table the Gen 2 has to run richer and has the riches AFR out of all the tunes. How does that compare to the baseman provided by DIYAUTOTUNE?
3sgte Basemap Ignition Timing
3sgte Basemap AFR

It looks like whoever tuned the Gen 2 3sgte took some safety precautions but also got a little aggressive in other areas. The timing was backed off a little bit down low but advanced more as boost comes on. It looks like the AFRs are richer than the basemap to compensate for that added timing. So again, it all depends on how the motor and the ECU were set up and performing during the tuning session.

What do I think? First of all, I am not a tuner or a professional engine builder but I do have an engineering background. I believe all these tune files each have their purpose and this further reinforces the need for getting your car professionally tuned. As you can see, 2 similar motors have 2 very different timing and fuel tables. What do you guys think?

This post has been edited by HardHead93: Dec 12, 2017 - 1:06 AM
post Dec 13, 2017 - 9:38 PM
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HardHead93

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I wasn't happy with how the Innovate SCG-1 Boost Controller was handling boost. It made the turbo feel extra laggy because it would run off of wastegate spring for a while before it would open up the solenoid. Plus boost would fall off really bad up top even with me adding to the gain setting. What I did like was the ability to change the boost right from the gauge on the pillar but their are other devices that will let me do that. Here is the picture of the boost controller gauge.
RW SCG-1

I decided to switch to letting the ECU handle boost control. First I tried using the Innovative solenoid but it made this loud clicking noise unless it was fully open or fully closed. I switched over to the solenoid that I bough from DIYAUTOTUNE a while back. Here they are side by side.
Boost Controller Comparison

I played around with the settings in TunerStudio a little bit and got the car to hold 13-14 psi all the way to 6500 rpm in 3rd and in 4th gear. Here are the settings I used.
Boost Control Settings 1
Boost Duty 1

I will try this out for a few weeks and see how it goes. If I am not happy with it I will switch to boost by gear since I have the vehicle speed sensor wired into the ECU. How that works is that the ECU take the gear ratios that you enter for you transmission and is able to figure out what gear you are in based off of RPM and speed. Then based on what you set up as your target boost level for that gear it will shoot for that. I think a lot of people use that setting if they are getting wheel spin in 1st and 2nd gear.

This post has been edited by HardHead93: Dec 13, 2017 - 9:40 PM
post Dec 28, 2017 - 5:02 PM
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I started playing with the flex fuel settings in TunerStudio following some guidelines I read on various forums. The software has the ability to do flex fuel in one of 2 ways.
1. It can use the flex fuel sensor to add a set amount of timing and fuel based on ethanol percentage.
2. It can blend tables between a regular fuel/ignition/boost table and a e85 table based on ethanol percentage.

I chose the second because it gives more flexibility to make changes in parts of the table where AFR is too rich or too lean. Right now I am getting all the settings set up so that my next tuning session will not take that long. Here are the setting used for table blending.
Flex Settings

You have to be very careful when selecting these settings. Make sure if you plan to do table blending that the "Fuel Multiplier" is set to 100 on both low and high. Also the Timing addition needs to be set to 0 in both fields. You only used those values if you plan to do the option 1 of flex fuel tuning I talked about above. Changing those values will add fuel and timing on top of your table blending which could cause some problems (engine knock or flooded motor). Next is the table blending curve:
Flex Blending Curve

This tell the ECU how to blend your 2 curves. Most regular fuel has some level of ethanol in it. Whatever that is in your area (your flex fuel sensor will tell you), that is what you put as your first data point. For me we area at about 12% in our 91 octane fuel. The top of the curve will be 85% ethanol which is for a full tank of e85. The Blend % tells the ECU how much of the normal fuel and e85 fuel tables to use (0% is all regular fuel, 100% is full e85). I will warn you most pumps do not carry full e85. In my area it is more like e65, but you want your ECU to be ready if you do luck out on true e85. Next are my tables:
Flex Fuel Table 1
Flex Ignition Table 1
Flex Boost 1

On the left is the normal fuel table and the right is the e85. For my fuel table I added 46% across the whole board and let EGO control adjust from there (again I am just dialing in basic settings the tuner will sort out the rest). For timing I added 5 degrees across the board except in the idle areas of the map. For the boost it was a little more tricky. First I dialed in the boost settings for 14-15 psi on 91 octane. Then I ran the tank dry and filled it up with e85. I dialed in the boost settings at 16-17 psi for e85. I did this because you can run more boost and timing with e85 and you definitely feel it on the road. Now that I have some basic drivable settings with a well tuned 91 octane map, I will take it back to the tuner to get is really dialed in.
post Mar 20, 2018 - 5:29 PM
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NgoFcukinWay



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Are you looking to run E85 on this one?


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-Alex {](O_o)[}

1993.5 Toyota Supra ....with stuff.... ....sorta broken....
1998 Toyota Celica ....this one, too, has stuff.... ....broken....
post Mar 23, 2018 - 8:18 AM
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QUOTE (NgoFcukinWay @ Mar 20, 2018 - 5:29 PM) *
Are you looking to run E85 on this one?


I already am and it has been great!
post Mar 28, 2018 - 4:27 PM
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Oh sweet! How's your fuel tank holding up? I was informed that E85 eats away at the metal over time, so the inside of the tank would need to be coated. Buddy of mine did it with his MK3 Supra.


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-Alex {](O_o)[}

1993.5 Toyota Supra ....with stuff.... ....sorta broken....
1998 Toyota Celica ....this one, too, has stuff.... ....broken....
post Mar 31, 2018 - 8:15 AM
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QUOTE (NgoFcukinWay @ Mar 28, 2018 - 4:27 PM) *
Oh sweet! How's your fuel tank holding up? I was informed that E85 eats away at the metal over time, so the inside of the tank would need to be coated. Buddy of mine did it with his MK3 Supra.


The tank is holding up fine. Our e85 is really only up to 65% ethanol so it is not as corrosive. Plus our regular 91 octane has 12% ethanol in it already. Also, I really only run e85 on the days I track my car. The power is amazing, I am running 2 more psi of boost and 5 more degrees of timing up top when using e85. Since I have a flex fuel tune I can switch back and forth as needed.
post Mar 31, 2018 - 8:40 AM
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presure2



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lots of cool stuff here man! boost by gear can be a godsend in our fwd setups, especially as you ramp up the power.
a shame the board isnt as active with all the facebook stuff...guys could actually learn some stuff in this thread!!


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post Mar 31, 2018 - 7:31 PM
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njccmd2002



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lol, facebook guys actually putting a lot of misinformation, Its like an episode of punkd, or something. But i agree, all this info is great.


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A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within.


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post Mar 31, 2018 - 10:43 PM
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NgoFcukinWay



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Sweet! Good to hear! I can't wait to go E85 on both cars. Down here, we get pretty lucky with our E85 content and most good stations will have about an average of E80 at their pumps.


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-Alex {](O_o)[}

1993.5 Toyota Supra ....with stuff.... ....sorta broken....
1998 Toyota Celica ....this one, too, has stuff.... ....broken....
post Apr 1, 2018 - 11:18 PM
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QUOTE (presure2 @ Mar 31, 2018 - 9:40 AM) *
lots of cool stuff here man! boost by gear can be a godsend in our fwd setups, especially as you ramp up the power.
a shame the board isnt as active with all the facebook stuff...guys could actually learn some stuff in this thread!!


Photobucket didn't help with the crap they pulled. They killed a lot of car forums all over the internet. I am subscribed to Megasquirt and Celica groups on Facebook. When people have questions I will point them to 6gc.net.
post Apr 3, 2018 - 10:43 PM
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NgoFcukinWay



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I forgot to ask: What injectors/rail are you running? Anything E85 friendly that will drop into the stock fuel rail?


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-Alex {](O_o)[}

1993.5 Toyota Supra ....with stuff.... ....sorta broken....
1998 Toyota Celica ....this one, too, has stuff.... ....broken....
post Apr 4, 2018 - 11:33 AM
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HardHead93

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QUOTE (NgoFcukinWay @ Apr 3, 2018 - 10:43 PM) *
I forgot to ask: What injectors/rail are you running? Anything E85 friendly that will drop into the stock fuel rail?


I am using the stock rail. Look back on page 2 of this thread and I talk about the injectors. I had to use a conversion harness to make it plug n play. I like these injectors so much I am using the on my SC300 too.
post Apr 5, 2018 - 10:08 PM
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NgoFcukinWay



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QUOTE (HardHead93 @ Apr 4, 2018 - 11:33 AM) *
QUOTE (NgoFcukinWay @ Apr 3, 2018 - 10:43 PM) *
I forgot to ask: What injectors/rail are you running? Anything E85 friendly that will drop into the stock fuel rail?


I am using the stock rail. Look back on page 2 of this thread and I talk about the injectors. I had to use a conversion harness to make it plug n play. I like these injectors so much I am using the on my SC300 too.


Oh duuuhhh...Stupid me. I was wondering why I had that on my eBay watch list. lol


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-Alex {](O_o)[}

1993.5 Toyota Supra ....with stuff.... ....sorta broken....
1998 Toyota Celica ....this one, too, has stuff.... ....broken....
post Apr 6, 2018 - 7:50 PM
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HardHead93

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I am currently running my Walbro255 fuel pump with my flex fuel set up. It is working well but I heard too much ethanol can destroy these pumps over time. Some people have lucked out and ran these for years but I am not a gambling man. What is a good e85 compatible high flow pump that is compatible with our cars? I am hoping to find something as easy to drop in as the Walbro255.
post Apr 7, 2018 - 6:24 AM
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presure2



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pretty sure walbro makes a e85 compatible replacement now, check out what all the mr2 guys are using. im sure aaron @ ats, eric @ hux racing or one of those guys will have a solid solution.


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post Apr 7, 2018 - 11:12 PM
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NgoFcukinWay



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I have a Walbro 450 in the Supra. It's an E85-friendly pump. Will be dropping one in the Celica later as well.


--------------------
-Alex {](O_o)[}

1993.5 Toyota Supra ....with stuff.... ....sorta broken....
1998 Toyota Celica ....this one, too, has stuff.... ....broken....
post Apr 8, 2018 - 9:16 AM
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HardHead93

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QUOTE (NgoFcukinWay @ Apr 7, 2018 - 11:12 PM) *
I have a Walbro 450 in the Supra. It's an E85-friendly pump. Will be dropping one in the Celica later as well.


Will I need an aftermarket fuel pressure regulator? I don't think so but I just want to be sure.
post Apr 12, 2018 - 10:02 PM
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NgoFcukinWay



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Wouldn't hurt to have one that way you can run a fuel pressure sensor to the ECU so you can monitor that as well.


--------------------
-Alex {](O_o)[}

1993.5 Toyota Supra ....with stuff.... ....sorta broken....
1998 Toyota Celica ....this one, too, has stuff.... ....broken....
post Apr 20, 2018 - 8:11 PM
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HardHead93

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QUOTE (NgoFcukinWay @ Apr 12, 2018 - 11:02 PM) *
Wouldn't hurt to have one that way you can run a fuel pressure sensor to the ECU so you can monitor that as well.


I am not sure where it is pulling the data from but the ECU already measures fuel pressure and displays it on a gauge in the software.

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