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6G Celicas Forums _ Engine/Transmission/Maintenance _ Engine Heat with AC On

Posted by: HardHead93 Mar 17, 2017 - 7:31 PM

It got a little warm today in southern New Mexico so today was the first day I drove the 3sgte swapped Celica in stop and go traffic with the AC on. Normally without the AC on, the engine temps bounce between 189 and 199 degrees F. When I turned the AC on it climbed to 209 degrees in the course of 5 minutes before I turned the AC off. Once I turned the AC off the temp quickly dropped back into the normal range in about another 2-3 minutes. I am reading the temps off an aftermarket water temp gauge with the sensor on the upper radiator hose. Below is a picture of the type of gauge I am using. It is a Glowshift MaxTow water temp gauge.
http://s300.photobucket.com/user/Rashaad_Andre_Williams/media/IMG_4640_zpszsmp8auk.jpg.html

When that gauge reads 215 degrees the stock dummy temp gauge in the car starts moving towards the H. I am running an Ebay 2-row radiator with aftermarket fans and I have a FMIC. Should I keep the aftermarket fans or go back to a stock radiator with stock fans? Also, the Ebay radiator is pretty dirty from constantly taking it in and out of the car during the build process, could that be the culprit? Is there something else I should check on that may be causing the engine temps to climb with he AC on? Below is a picture of the 2 different radiators.
http://s300.photobucket.com/user/Rashaad_Andre_Williams/media/IMG_4527_zpsy6vkv9ht.jpg.html

Is there really an advantage to running a 2 row radiator with a 3sgte?

Posted by: Bitter Mar 17, 2017 - 8:49 PM

The stock fans will move WAY more air. The AC adds a fairly large heat load IN FRONT of the radiator meaning it's getting pre-heated air through it, that's why having high airflow is so critical when running the AC system AND trying to keep the car cool. I think swapping to stock fans will probably take care of the issue, but it would also be a good idea to clean the AC condenser and radiator with some AC coil cleaner per bottle directions.

Some cars have pusher fans on the AC, you could piggy back a single slim fan to the stock fans via a relay and mount it up front to blow inward (between the IC and condenser , there could be some airflow drop through the thicker radiator core, but that's a lot of added electrical load for possibly no gains in cooling.

Posted by: HardHead93 Mar 17, 2017 - 9:15 PM

QUOTE (Bitter @ Mar 17, 2017 - 8:49 PM) *
The stock fans will move WAY more air. The AC adds a fairly large heat load IN FRONT of the radiator meaning it's getting pre-heated air through it, that's why having high airflow is so critical when running the AC system AND trying to keep the car cool. I think swapping to stock fans will probably take care of the issue, but it would also be a good idea to clean the AC condenser and radiator with some AC coil cleaner per bottle directions.


So stock fans with the stock radiator? I tried to put the stock fans on the 2 row radiator and they do not fit.

Posted by: Bitter Mar 17, 2017 - 9:35 PM

Cause the rad is too thick or the mounting studs don't line up?

Posted by: HardHead93 Mar 18, 2017 - 1:15 AM

QUOTE (Bitter @ Mar 17, 2017 - 10:35 PM) *
Cause the rad is too thick or the mounting studs don't line up?


The mounting studs do not line up. I broke one factory fan and had to go get a second one from the junk yard. I just put the factory radiator back in with the factory fans and it seems to be cooling really well.

Posted by: Bitter Mar 18, 2017 - 2:33 AM

It shouldn't be hard to use some aluminum bar stock to make a bracket to bolt to the studs and then bolt the fans to the bar stock, should you later desire the bigger radiator.

Posted by: HardHead93 Mar 19, 2017 - 11:09 AM

So I ran the stock radiator with the stock fans yesterday and the heat issue during stop and go driving with the AC on got better but then I started having worse heat issues with sustained driving on the freeway. My water temps were climbing to 213-215 degrees F when before the highest they would go with freeway driving was 204. I think this is pointing to an air flow issue. If I don't figure out how to get more air to the radiator it doesn't matter what fans or radiator I am using. After doing some research and talking to a couple of people I know with turbo cars (they drive Honda Civics but I will forgive them tongue.gif ), it looks like the front mount intercooler is blocking air flow to the radiator.
http://s300.photobucket.com/user/Rashaad_Andre_Williams/media/IMG_4736_zpsc59vzou6.jpg.html

http://s300.photobucket.com/user/Rashaad_Andre_Williams/media/IMG_3118_2_zpsugilfpfq.jpg.html

When I installed the intercooler I kept the crash bar in place because the fog lights attach to it. A lot of FMIC installs on our cars have removed that bar. I can see that being a culprit for blocking air flow. Is that true? If I remove the crash bar, is there a way to mount the fog light brackets so I can keep them? The whole point of my turbo build was to have a more powerful engine but not at the cost of losing functionality (fog lights, cruise control, AC, etc.). As you can see from the first picture I also installed an additional bumper duct to help with cooling but it is not enough. I have switched back to the 2-row radiator because it seems to cool the best for the majority of the type of driving I do. Any ideas for fixing this problem would be greatly appreciated.

Posted by: Bitter Mar 19, 2017 - 12:54 PM

I think you need to keep the crash bar, it's super important should there be an impact.

I would ditch the fog lights and move the oil cooler to one side in the fog light opening, should get enough airflow and small fan on a thermostatic switch could be attached if needed.
Then the next step would be to get the stock fans mounted to the 2 core radiator and open the area above the crash bar in the bumper so airflow can bypass the FMIC to the radiator.




You could also look into water spray systems to mist water through the FMIC or onto the radiator to add cooling on a demand basis, like maybe trigger it off the radiator fans so when they turn on you get a mist of water sprayed over the radiator for additional cooling. Evaporating water off the IC and radiator can dump a bunch of extra heat, but it would need to be a pulsed spray, like 1 second on, several seconds off. They make systems for that, but it's been years since I read about them.

Posted by: HardHead93 Mar 19, 2017 - 2:34 PM

QUOTE (Bitter @ Mar 19, 2017 - 12:54 PM) *
I think you need to keep the crash bar, it's super important should there be an impact.

I would ditch the fog lights and move the oil cooler to one side in the fog light opening, should get enough airflow and small fan on a thermostatic switch could be attached if needed.


Sorry, the picture with the bumper off is old. The oil cooler was removed when I went from a 5sfte to a 3sgte. I will look to widen that vent I cut in the bumper and potentially install another. I agree, the crash bar is very important, I will keep it. Ideally I would like to get this bumper.
http://s300.photobucket.com/user/Rashaad_Andre_Williams/media/94_celicac5front_zpssr4bgher.jpg.html

It has extra vents in it and would solve my air flow issues. The problem is I am not too sure about the Duraflex brand's quality and I hear a lot of those bumpers tend to crack really easy.

Posted by: Bitter Mar 19, 2017 - 3:15 PM

Ever seen a GT4 front bumper?
http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=63523
Look at how much more open space there is and that big extra opening up top, you need something like that.

Posted by: Box Mar 19, 2017 - 8:47 PM

Anything under 240 is within operating spec on most any modern engine, so if it only gets up to 215 you're over worrying. Ideally you're in the 185-210 range on most engines. Thing is though the best place to read water temperature is in the head since it's most accurate, so odds are you're higher than what you're currently reading. You could go to a GT-Four bumper and hood as well as the TMIC if you could find one, it worked for every factory GT-Four so you know it'll work for you. Though many do fine with a FMIC and the GT-Four bumper and hood.

Posted by: HardHead93 Mar 20, 2017 - 7:59 AM

QUOTE (Box @ Mar 19, 2017 - 8:47 PM) *
Anything under 240 is within operating spec on most any modern engine, so if it only gets up to 215 you're over worrying. Ideally you're in the 185-210 range on most engines. Thing is though the best place to read water temperature is in the head since it's most accurate, so odds are you're higher than what you're currently reading.


When i was running a standalone on my 5s and could pull temp readings right off it, I had this sensor/gauge in place and it was pretty close to the same as what was coming off the stock temp sensor on the coolant neck (my gauge was reading 1-2 degrees higher). On the 3s the stock sensor is in the same place on the coolant neck that comes off the cylinder head so I am probably in the same boat. What ever my gauge is reading is pretty close to what the ECU is seeing. It is good to know that the temps (around 215 degrees F) I am seeing could have me worried for nothing.

QUOTE (Box @ Mar 19, 2017 - 8:47 PM) *
You could go to a GT-Four bumper and hood as well as the TMIC if you could find one, it worked for every factory GT-Four so you know it'll work for you. Though many do fine with a FMIC and the GT-Four bumper and hood.


I already have a custom vented hood.
http://s300.photobucket.com/user/Rashaad_Andre_Williams/media/IMG_4392_zpswpvsshlq.jpg.html

I like the GT-Four bumper but it seems like everyone is doing that conversion who has a 6th gen Celica. I would like to use a bumper that gives a different look than everyone else but still provides the venting I want. Is there any reputable company that makes a quality aftermarket bumper of the style I am looking for? I am planning to repaint the car later this year and I would do the bumper then.

Posted by: slavie Mar 20, 2017 - 10:35 AM

Stock fans are better - they have scoops to pull the air from the entire surface of the radiator vs the aftermarket coolers on the 2-row you have. I mean, just looking at those fans on alum rad, they do not apply to at least a third of the radiator.
If you could fabricate a way to attach stock fans, that would of course be your best bet.

Aside from that, you either need to increase inflow, or reduce the pressure on the back so that the air can outflow more easily. First would require chopping up the bumper or getting an aftermarket one. I know you said you don't like the GT4 bumper, but those are really good - crash bar is much narrower (if you get the whole front bits, not just the cover) and you have a lot more air inflow.

Another idea is to look at your engine splash shields (under engine covers). A lot of people junk them thinking they block airflow. But, toyota put it there for a reason - smoother airflow under the car will create lower pressure under the car and allow the air from the engine bay to escape more easily. Removing the under engine covers creates turbulence, and may make matters worse. You can search around the internet and there are threads where people measured the temp differences and say a drop in temps WITH the covers.

Finally, your FMIC looks pretty restrictive. Not sure how much you can do here, but just pointing it out. GT4 A2W intercooler is more like a regular radiator rather than having flat bars like the A2A FMIC.

Hope this helps.

Posted by: Box Mar 20, 2017 - 2:49 PM

The Duraflex bumper you posted earlier is a knock off of the C-ONE bumper, but an authentic C-ONE bumper is hellaciously rare.

Posted by: HardHead93 Mar 21, 2017 - 10:46 PM

QUOTE (Box @ Mar 20, 2017 - 3:49 PM) *
The Duraflex bumper you posted earlier is a knock off of the C-ONE bumper, but an authentic C-ONE bumper is hellaciously rare.


Ahh man! I really like the look of that bumper. mad.gif

Posted by: Box Mar 22, 2017 - 3:38 PM

There out there, but usually they're overseas and shipping is a fortune. That and it seems like most don't know how to package anything so it ends up arriving broken more often than not. You could do like some people have done and combine the GT-Four and facelift bumper, "SS-IV" is usually what it's called if memory serves correctly.

Posted by: Bitter Mar 22, 2017 - 6:32 PM

I still think if you dump the fogs and put two air scoops there with some duct you could get air up to the top of the radiator bypassing the FMIC and might be OK, certainly cheaper to try that out than to get a new bumper and paint for the new bumper. if it doesn't work then you've at least tried.

Posted by: Box Mar 23, 2017 - 2:40 AM

I want to say someone used to make vents for the Celica specifically you cut out the regular bumper and then they fit in place over the cutout, they were sorta in a GT-Four style.

Posted by: HardHead93 Mar 24, 2017 - 9:31 PM

I widened the opening on the carbon fiber bumper vent I installed. It seems to provide the additional needed air flow that bypasses the intercooler with the AC on. The water temps don't seem to be climbing as high anymore. That was in 90 degree weather. The true test will be when we start having 100+ degree days during the summer.

Posted by: Box Mar 25, 2017 - 1:33 PM

Or in order to satisfy my OCD and provide additional cooling you could install a second vent mirrored to the first one. tongue.gif

Posted by: Bitter Mar 25, 2017 - 3:56 PM

I agree.

Posted by: HardHead93 Mar 25, 2017 - 7:38 PM

QUOTE (Bitter @ Mar 25, 2017 - 4:56 PM) *
I agree.


To be safe I think I will order another one and put it in.

Posted by: HardHead93 Apr 1, 2017 - 6:14 PM

This morning I got around to adding the 2nd bumper duct so I can get air flow to bypass the radiator. The cooling is a lot better.
http://s300.photobucket.com/user/Rashaad_Andre_Williams/media/IMG_4765_zpsi6vft3jq.jpg.html

It was pain in the butt because I had to measure over and over again to ensure it lined up with the other duct before I started cutting. It came out good, phew!

Posted by: Box Apr 1, 2017 - 6:27 PM

Much better. thumbsup.gif

Posted by: Bitter Apr 1, 2017 - 7:31 PM

If it ever stops working as good all you need is some nasal spray.

Posted by: HardHead93 Apr 1, 2017 - 9:03 PM

QUOTE (Bitter @ Apr 1, 2017 - 7:31 PM) *
If it ever stops working as good all you need is some nasal spray.


Now that you say it, it does look like a big nose. I hope it doesn't need an inhaler. biggrin.gif

Posted by: Box Apr 1, 2017 - 10:23 PM

If you want giant nostrils on a car look no further than the '98-02 WS6 Trans Ams and Formulas. tongue.gif

Posted by: HardHead93 Apr 10, 2017 - 10:31 PM

It has gotten a lot hotter here in southern New Mexico over the last few weeks and the AC, engine temp problem has come back. When I drive around town especially on the freeway with the AC on the water temps climb into the low 220s and would probably go higher if I did not turn off the AC before it got to that. As soon as I turn the AC off the water temps drop back into the low 200s within a few minutes. Also when the AC is on it blows cold but will get warm (not hot but definitely not as cold as it should be) for a few moments before getting cold again. This leads me to the following conclusions:

1. This problem occurred with the stock and 2-row radiators which leads me to believe the radiators are fine.
2. The car runs in the 180-205 range when the AC is off so it is not an air flow issue.
3. Since the problem goes away immediately when I turn off the AC, this leads me to think it is something with the AC condenser. Maybe it is clogged or malfunctioning.

To be safe I am going to replace the radiator with another brand new 2-row one, replace the AC condenser, and clean the intercooler. If this does not correct the problem I do not know what to do.

Posted by: Bitter Apr 10, 2017 - 11:01 PM

Sounds like the system pressure is going high due to lack of cooling, is it missing fins? My 7G Celica condenser was missing most if the fins in the lower 1/3 of it, replacing with a good new Denso unit restored my AC to blowing ICE cold at all times. An over charged AC system can cycle off due to high pressure as well, under charged will blow extra cold or not work, but at the expense of causing low lubrication to the compressor due to lack of oil flow in the system. Which leads to the least happy possibility, there's debris in the system causing high side pressure to go too high.

But AC is a heat pump. it pumps heat from the cabin to the outside. If the system isn't working correctly because of a charge level issue it won't be moving the heat. It sounds like the AC is working properly and overloading the cooling ability of the radiator OR the FMIC is introducing too much heat into the condenser and radiator for them to all work properly. It's a shame you can't move the FMIC forward into the lower mouth and divert the air passing through it downward and out before it hits the radiator. That would still be blocking too much airflow. I think the GT4 bumper may be the only fix, that or figuring out some kind of dual SMIC setup like some VW's use.

Posted by: Box Apr 11, 2017 - 3:24 PM

I'd check the condenser and system pressure before I start replacing things. Another thing would be to make sure your radiator fans are kicking on when the A/C is turned on, I forget how exactly it works for the 6th gen but either one fan should turn on or both will come on as soon as the A/C is turned on. Not sure why that wasn't mentioned ages ago, but it's easy enough to double check.

My brother's Audi A4 has the dual side mount intercoolers, I thought it was kind of strange to do on an engine with a single throttle body but I guess it was done for space and cooling constraints. Shouldn't be too hard to replicate if you grabbed everything off a totaled VW/Audi. Could possibly mount them where the foglights are. I remember you saying you didn't want a GT-Four bumper so it might be the way to go.

Posted by: HardHead93 Apr 11, 2017 - 8:22 PM

Everyone, thanks for all the info. Based on what everyone has said, I plan to do the following:

- Replace the condenser and get the system recharged to the proper pressure
- Replace the 2-row radiator and attach stock radiator fans to it (Does it matter if I go with a generic Ebay one or Mishimoto, they look the same?)
- Replace the ATA with a WTA intercooler. This will eliminate my intercooler piping and allow me to mount the stock radiator fans. Also heat exchangers do not restrict air as much as ATA intercooler.
- I have an exhaust leak on the manifold gasket so I will fix that since I will have access

I looked around for a GT4 bumper in case all of this does not work and have come up with nothing. I will be gathering the parts over the next 2 weeks to do this. Is there anything I missed? Oh yea, and my intercooler fans kick on fine when I turn the AC on.

Posted by: Bitter Apr 11, 2017 - 8:28 PM

I think dual SMIC is a better choice, if it's possible.

Posted by: HardHead93 Apr 11, 2017 - 8:37 PM

QUOTE (Bitter @ Apr 11, 2017 - 8:28 PM) *
I think dual SMIC is a better choice, if it's possible.


Why do I need dual side mounts? Wouldn't a single one be fine? I have only 1 intercooler pipe. I believe the dual side mount is for a V style motor with twin turbos. Plus MR2s run a single side mount on their 3sgte.

Posted by: Bitter Apr 11, 2017 - 9:18 PM

To equal the area of your single large FMIC I would think you would need dual side mount?

Posted by: Box Apr 11, 2017 - 10:53 PM

The A4 is an 2.0 I4 and has the dual side mounts, you run them in series. Here's a picture of one with the front end off so you can see them:

Posted by: Bitter Apr 12, 2017 - 7:31 AM

And you can put small puller fans on them to keep heat soak down at lower speeds between pulls or on the dyno.

Posted by: HardHead93 Apr 12, 2017 - 8:22 AM

I am still not convinced it is the intercooler causing the problem. There are plenty of people who have done 3sgte swaps with FMIC and have had no problems. Here are some photos of when Tweak'd used to do engine swaps and they were all FMIC (without GT4 bumpers).

http://s300.photobucket.com/user/Rashaad_Andre_Williams/media/Tweakd%2002_zpsjxtkadls.jpg.html

http://s300.photobucket.com/user/Rashaad_Andre_Williams/media/Tweakd%2001_zpsvi1mrokr.jpg.html

Also, also there are 2 other people on this forum (DarkDeath and ILoveMySilly97) who just recently did 3sgte swaps with FMIC and I have not heard them having problems like this. I really think something else in my system, like the radiator or the condenser is causing the problem. I think before I start going down the route of swapping intercoolers, I am going to replace those 2 parts. Plus, the side mount thing will not work for the Celica on the passenger side unless I remove the windshield wiper fluid tank.

Posted by: Bitter Apr 12, 2017 - 12:18 PM

Paahhhh you don't need washer fluid. Well not there. You can put a generic tank anywhere.

Sounds reasonable. Maybe boil the thermostat to make sure it's fully opening.

Posted by: HardHead93 Apr 12, 2017 - 2:01 PM

QUOTE (Bitter @ Apr 12, 2017 - 1:18 PM) *
Paahhhh you don't need washer fluid. Well not there. You can put a generic tank anywhere.

Sounds reasonable. Maybe boil the thermostat to make sure it's fully opening.


I am about to order what I need. Does it matter if I get a Mishimoto 2-row radiator or a generic one? They both look the same. The thermostat is under warranty so I will just replace it. I am going to hold off on the intercooler for now.

Posted by: Box Apr 12, 2017 - 4:28 PM

A lot of people remove A/C as well, so they wouldn't have a problem in that regard. As far as the radiator goes after looking the generic eBay specials and the Mishimoto do look strikingly similar. Not saying it's the case but odds are they're both made by the same factory and the best ones get the Mishimoto branding while the others get sent to whatever seller on eBay or Amazon. It's hard to tell from the pictures, but it does seem like the Mishimoto ones have cleaner welds. If it were me I'd look into the Koyo Racing radiator part# R1958.

Posted by: HardHead93 Apr 12, 2017 - 6:04 PM

QUOTE (Box @ Apr 12, 2017 - 5:28 PM) *
A lot of people remove A/C as well, so they wouldn't have a problem in that regard. As far as the radiator goes after looking the generic eBay specials and the Mishimoto do look strikingly similar. Not saying it's the case but odds are they're both made by the same factory and the best ones get the Mishimoto branding while the others get sent to whatever seller on eBay or Amazon. It's hard to tell from the pictures, but it does seem like the Mishimoto ones have cleaner welds. If it were me I'd look into the Koyo Racing radiator part# R1958.


I didn't even think about that brand. It looks like the stock radiator fans mount directly to this radiator. The following thread says so:

http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=61443

Can you confirm if that is true because if that is the case, I will definitely go with that radiator?

Posted by: Box Apr 12, 2017 - 7:13 PM

From all the listings they say the Koyo despite being a racing radiator is meant to be 100% direct fit and uses the stock fans, the only thing not direct fit is the radiator cap and you need one of their caps but that's not a big deal if everything else is 100% o.e. fit. Personally I'd trust Koyo over Mishimoto or a generic eBay just due to the fact Koyo is an o.e. part supplier, that and the Koyo looks nicer made for the same price as the Mishimoto. Here according to their quality page they state every radiator is made to use all o.e. mounting locations and fans: http://koyoradracing.com/about/our_quality.asp

Posted by: HardHead93 Apr 12, 2017 - 7:20 PM

QUOTE (Box @ Apr 12, 2017 - 7:13 PM) *
From all the listings they say the Koyo despite being a racing radiator is meant to be 100% direct fit and uses the stock fans, the only thing not direct fit is the radiator cap and you need one of their caps but that's not a big deal if everything else is 100% o.e. fit. Personally I'd trust Koyo over Mishimoto or a generic eBay just due to the fact Koyo is an o.e. part supplier, that and the Koyo looks nicer made for the same price as the Mishimoto. Here according to their quality page they state every radiator is made to use all o.e. mounting locations and fans: http://koyoradracing.com/about/our_quality.asp


SOLD!

Posted by: Box Apr 12, 2017 - 7:59 PM

I found a few on eBay in the $270-280 range, but main thing is finding an authorized retailer so you get all of your warranty. At any rate if it were me I'd go with the Koyo over the others.

Posted by: HardHead93 Apr 12, 2017 - 10:10 PM

QUOTE (Box @ Apr 12, 2017 - 7:59 PM) *
I found a few on eBay in the $270-280 range, but main thing is finding an authorized retailer so you get all of your warranty. At any rate if it were me I'd go with the Koyo over the others.


I found a retailer selling one with the radiator cap for $304.99. It also comes with the warranty. I just made the purchase along with the condenser. I hope to get all this swapped out when it comes in. Thanks for the info, I would have never thought of looking at the Koyo radiators had you not said something.

Posted by: Bitter Apr 12, 2017 - 10:59 PM

It would be wise to have a shop evac the AC system for you, then also have the shop recharge it correctly as well. If the receiver/dryer is old it should be replaced in the system as well.

Posted by: Box Apr 13, 2017 - 6:42 AM

QUOTE (HardHead93 @ Apr 12, 2017 - 10:10 PM) *
QUOTE (Box @ Apr 12, 2017 - 7:59 PM) *
I found a few on eBay in the $270-280 range, but main thing is finding an authorized retailer so you get all of your warranty. At any rate if it were me I'd go with the Koyo over the others.


I found a retailer selling one with the radiator cap for $304.99. It also comes with the warranty. I just made the purchase along with the condenser. I hope to get all this swapped out when it comes in. Thanks for the info, I would have never thought of looking at the Koyo radiators had you not said something.

Cool beans. No problem, I'm not sure why but I all of a sudden had remembered Koyo made racing radiators for the 6th gen GT among a few other Japanese cars.

Ditto on having a shop pull a vacuum and recharging it as well as replacing the drier/accumulator, personally with most cars the drier is cheap enough that it only makes sense to replace it every time you have the A/C recharged.

Posted by: slavie Apr 13, 2017 - 7:52 AM

"While you're there" jobs can be a real time hog, but, while you're there, think about replacing the seals in the AC connection points, at least the ones you touch. If your current refrigerant levels are really low, it must have escaped somewhere, which could well be the seals. Not sure if the new condenser comes with seals, but they're a few bucks anyway.

And yes, replace the dryer - they act like filters in the AC systems, and really are relatively cheap.

You can DIY AC vacuum, but need some tools (which can be loaned out at auto stores) and knowledge, so up to you. To discharge it first before you start taking parts though, a shop has to evacuate the system, definitely not a DIY.

Posted by: HardHead93 Apr 21, 2017 - 10:08 AM

Just about all the parts are in and I am getting ready to start replacing the AC condenser and radiator. I am going to have to take off the intercooler to get to all the parts on the car. This brought up a question. Since I will have the intercooler off, is it a good idea to put a puller fan on it? If so should I wire it with the rest of the radiator fans or have it turn on by some other method?

Posted by: Bitter Apr 21, 2017 - 1:28 PM

Wire it to an IAT with a fan controller kit so it comes on at your target IAT.

Posted by: Bitter Apr 21, 2017 - 10:06 PM

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&title=Triggering-an-Intercooler-Fan&A=2478

Posted by: HardHead93 May 14, 2017 - 8:47 AM

I got my Koyo radiator and the stock fans fit on it perfectly. I also got my new condenser and filter can in. Hopefully these items will fix my heat issue.

http://s300.photobucket.com/user/Rashaad_Andre_Williams/media/IMG_4776_zpsrkyqmno8.jpg.html
http://s300.photobucket.com/user/Rashaad_Andre_Williams/media/IMG_4781_zpsaozl8npk.jpg.html
It was definitely a pain in the butt to get everything off. I had to remove the bumper and intercooler to get to everything.

http://s300.photobucket.com/user/Rashaad_Andre_Williams/media/IMG_4777_zpsv1tqsd79.jpg.html
The old condenser was clogged with a bunch on bugs and crap. I bet that was affecting some of the air flow to the radiator.

http://s300.photobucket.com/user/Rashaad_Andre_Williams/media/IMG_4787_zps1x9uvgmg.jpg.html
This is a shot of the old condenser next to the new one.

http://s300.photobucket.com/user/Rashaad_Andre_Williams/media/IMG_4784_zps9jvliedy.jpg.html
This is my brand new Koyo radiator. The bolt holes for the radiator fans line up perfectly! smile.gif

I also decided to go with different shaped intercooler to help airflow get to the radiator. Below is a shot of the old and the new intercooler and the new intercooler installed.
http://s300.photobucket.com/user/Rashaad_Andre_Williams/media/IMG_4780_zpskjucjfrm.jpg.html
http://s300.photobucket.com/user/Rashaad_Andre_Williams/media/IMG_4791_zps02cwr6ay.jpg.html

As you can see I went with a taller but narrower intercooler. It actually has more surface area than than to old one too, so score! All these changes should fix my cooling issues.

Posted by: Bitter May 14, 2017 - 10:34 AM

I sure hope so! You should get some heat shield on that pipe too!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/122464347337?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
And secure with some SS ties.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/181830612891?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

how to use the ties and what the product looks like. Not the prettiest but it blocks a ton of heat from radiating toward the radiator area and fans.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecS2ZwjWo-g
They have product installation videos on their website that show how to measure and cut and do stuff to make it look like a pro race car job.

Posted by: Box May 14, 2017 - 4:07 PM

Nothing like cutting/removing the crash bar to fit a bigger intercooler.

Posted by: HardHead93 May 15, 2017 - 7:58 PM

Here is a shot of the front of the car with the new intercooler. It definitely opens some space on the sides for some airflow compared to the old intercooler.
http://s300.photobucket.com/user/Rashaad_Andre_Williams/media/IMG_4797_zps0cbizujn.jpg.html

Posted by: brandon702bmx May 25, 2017 - 12:39 PM

QUOTE (HardHead93 @ Mar 20, 2017 - 7:59 AM) *
QUOTE (Box @ Mar 19, 2017 - 8:47 PM) *
Anything under 240 is within operating spec on most any modern engine, so if it only gets up to 215 you're over worrying. Ideally you're in the 185-210 range on most engines. Thing is though the best place to read water temperature is in the head since it's most accurate, so odds are you're higher than what you're currently reading.


When i was running a standalone on my 5s and could pull temp readings right off it, I had this sensor/gauge in place and it was pretty close to the same as what was coming off the stock temp sensor on the coolant neck (my gauge was reading 1-2 degrees higher). On the 3s the stock sensor is in the same place on the coolant neck that comes off the cylinder head so I am probably in the same boat. What ever my gauge is reading is pretty close to what the ECU is seeing. It is good to know that the temps (around 215 degrees F) I am seeing could have me worried for nothing.

QUOTE (Box @ Mar 19, 2017 - 8:47 PM) *
You could go to a GT-Four bumper and hood as well as the TMIC if you could find one, it worked for every factory GT-Four so you know it'll work for you. Though many do fine with a FMIC and the GT-Four bumper and hood.


I already have a custom vented hood.
http://s300.photobucket.com/user/Rashaad_Andre_Williams/media/IMG_4392_zpswpvsshlq.jpg.html

I like the GT-Four bumper but it seems like everyone is doing that conversion who has a 6th gen Celica. I would like to use a bumper that gives a different look than everyone else but still provides the venting I want. Is there any reputable company that makes a quality aftermarket bumper of the style I am looking for? I am planning to repaint the car later this year and I would do the bumper then.

Taking the old stock bumper that originally comes from the car and adding a lip to the bottom would suit your needs. I have a buddy that did it on his car He was tired of the aftermarket front bumper so he just stole the lip off of it and put it on the stock one. Doesn't look too bad.

Posted by: VavAlephVav May 25, 2017 - 9:03 PM

http://www.andysautosport.com/images/extreme_dimensions/94_celicac5front.jpg

they call that the C5, it similar to the stock gt4,
or the Invader is cool looking too
https://www.carid.com/duraflex/blits-style-front-bumper-cover-mpn-101500.html?singleid=356205423&url=1666518


Posted by: HardHead93 Jun 10, 2017 - 9:33 AM

I got everything installed and was excited that my temps were acting normal until yesterday. It was a hot 100 degree day. I was driving about 75-80 mph on the freeway with the AC on and the water temps would slowly rise to 222 degrees. It looks like it would continue to rise (that's not good) so I turned the AC off. The temps would then drop back down to about 208-209 while still on the freeway. I would turn the air back on and again it would rise to about 222 again. Then I would turn it off and it would drop again. When I don't use the AC at all the water temp never goes above 204 even with highway driving. Also, in stop and go traffic with the AC on, the temps are fine. mad.gif More and more it is looking like the FMIC is blocking just enough air cause the problem.

If you read this full thread, you can see that I have replaced everything in the cooling and AC system. I also had a shop properly charge the AC system so the condenser would work correctly and they checked out the compressor and said it was operating fine. I am thinking of putting a 7 inch slim fan on the back of the intercooler to get some air to flow through. This sucks that the problem is only happening with the AC on!

Posted by: Bitter Jun 10, 2017 - 10:18 AM

yep, too much heat load with the AC on, for sure try an aux slim fan, you already have one from previous so all you need is a relay harness to piggy back on the fan control circuit so it runs with the AC.

Posted by: Box Jun 10, 2017 - 5:02 PM

That or time for a SMIC setup, but can always try a fan that comes on with the A/C first.

Posted by: HardHead93 Jun 10, 2017 - 9:35 PM

QUOTE (Box @ Jun 10, 2017 - 6:02 PM) *
That or time for a SMIC setup, but can always try a fan that comes on with the A/C first.


I really hope a fan works, I do no want to go side mount if all possible. The way the temps are behaving it almost looks like the intercooler is acting more like a solid panel at high speeds. Fluid will take the path of least resistance so at high speeds, the air can move faster going under or over the car instead of through the intercooler. The fan should create enough negative pressure to pull the air through the intercooler so it can get to the middle part of the radiator. I read a couple other car forums with this problem and this seemed to fix it.

Posted by: richee3 Jun 10, 2017 - 9:42 PM

It may be worthwhile to set up a W2A intercooler in the engine bay with an ST205 intercooler heat exchanger. But my thinking is, no other FMIC Celica seems to be having issues like you are. I wonder if your a/c fan just isn't working properly, although I've never seen a 6th gen only run one fan.

Posted by: HardHead93 Jun 10, 2017 - 11:35 PM

QUOTE (richee3 @ Jun 10, 2017 - 10:42 PM) *
It may be worthwhile to set up a W2A intercooler in the engine bay with an ST205 intercooler heat exchanger. But my thinking is, no other FMIC Celica seems to be having issues like you are. I wonder if your a/c fan just isn't working properly, although I've never seen a 6th gen only run one fan.


I am running the 2 stock fans on the radiator. I do not know why I am having these issues. That is why I a trying a fan on the back of the intercooler.

I just thought of this. I have an AutoZone Duralast thermostat instead of OEM. Does the OEM flow better than others when it opens?

Posted by: Box Jun 11, 2017 - 1:28 AM

O.E. thermostat is always best, I think I'd try that first now that you mention it. I personally wouldn't trust Duralast for much of anything, much less something that keeps my engine from overheating.

Posted by: Bitter Jun 11, 2017 - 10:16 AM

Yes, maybe even a lower temp TRD T-stat. Put thue Autozone and OEM side by side, you may see some minor differences laugh.gif

Posted by: HardHead93 Jun 13, 2017 - 7:19 AM

I am getting ready to put a fan on the intercooler and change out the thermostat. Since I am wiring it in with the radiator fans it brings up a question. Do the radiator fans kick on and stay on while the car is moving or only at idle?

Posted by: Bitter Jun 13, 2017 - 7:49 AM

They come on at temp, moving or not, as far as I know. I'd put that fan to come on when the AC system commands fan, not just whenever the radiator fans come on, since your problem is only with AC?

Posted by: Box Jun 13, 2017 - 7:14 PM

I can't remember how it is with the Celica but A/C will either turn one fan on full speed or both on low speed so long as the A/C is on.

Posted by: HardHead93 Jun 14, 2017 - 5:09 PM

So I got the AutoZone thermostat out of the car and I sat it next to the OEM one. The OEM one is on the right and the aftermarket one in on the left.
http://s300.photobucket.com/user/Rashaad_Andre_Williams/media/IMG_4903_zpstok9aqpd.jpg.html

Yeahhhhh. . . . . I can already tell the OEM one opens further than the aftermarket one. The bracket that holds the spring is bigger and longer which should allow more travel when the thermostat opens at high temperatures. I hope this will fix the problem and that it is just a water flow through the radiator issue. If not then the bumper comes off and on goes the fan on the intercooler.

Posted by: Box Jun 14, 2017 - 6:34 PM

Well fingers crossed that does it for you. It never ceases to amuse me the difference between OEM and aftermarket thermostats.

Posted by: Bitter Jun 14, 2017 - 6:35 PM

I didn't even need to read the description to know which was which dude. laugh.gif I hope this fixes it.

Posted by: HardHead93 Jun 14, 2017 - 8:20 PM

QUOTE (Bitter @ Jun 14, 2017 - 7:35 PM) *
I didn't even need to read the description to know which was which dude. laugh.gif I hope this fixes it.


I know, it is almost embarrassing what AutoZone passes off as a thermostat compared to the OEM. frown.gif

Posted by: Box Jun 14, 2017 - 8:48 PM

It's most any aftermarket. Depending on the car ones like the Stant SuperStat are ok and I think some of the MotoRad? ones as well. It seems especially on Asian makes the O.E. is always far superior.

Posted by: HardHead93 Jul 26, 2017 - 12:30 AM

Sorry I have not posted in a while but with what happened with Photobucket, I did not want to post anything until I had a new way of adding pictures. It sucks that Photobucket pulled the mess they did but that will not stop my build thread. I understand they need to make money and I would have been happy to pay a couple dollars a month but $39 a month or $400 a year, that is ridiculous! I am using PostImage now and will be spending the next few weeks rebuilding the pictures on this thread as well as the others I started. I will not let greedy companies destroy what I have added to this great online resource. With that out of the way, let's continue.

So I was still struggling with the engine getting hot with the AC on when I was at a constant speed on the freeway. Every time it was the same thing, the temps would rise while going 65 mph or higher on the freeway on a hot day and then when I would come to a stop or turn the AC off, the temps would immediately drop. The next step was to put a puller fan on the intercooler to hopefully get more air flow through there.
https://postimg.org/image/51zdkiycd/

https://postimg.org/image/d292v9pwd/

I also got rid of this weird aftermarket condenser I had and went back to an OEM one. The aftermarket one was thicker than OEM and looked like if flowed less air. Here is a pick of the aftermarket one off the car.
https://postimg.org/image/59n0h19b1/
Look at those beastly tubes, it is WAY to much.
https://postimg.org/image/kxst1keal/

I added more ducts and put the car back together.
https://postimg.org/image/s5zud41nh/

After all that work I took the car for a drive on a 105 degree day and guess what. . .

The problem did not go away! I had the intercooler fan set to turn out at 190 degree and turn off at 175 degrees. The fan proceeded to turn on like it should and then it NEVER turned off and the temps still rose to 215 degrees and was still going up until I cut the AC. Then like before, the temps dropped back down to normal levels. By this point I was getting furious because this problem was only occurring in 100+ degree days at high speed on the freeway. I track the car but never run the AC when I do and the car is fine. I did dyno pulls on the car and it was fine so something was up.

After a lot of surfing the web I ran into a Honda Civic and a Lancer Evo forum (please don't judge kindasad.gif ), some of them were having the same problem. One person chimed in on the thread and said he fixed his problem by going to a water to air intercooler. That got me thinking, the ST205 was water cooled from the factory and they do not have these problems. So I did some research on water to air intercoolers and found the following:
PROS
1. They are very efficient at cooling intake air temps
2. The heat exchanger does not need to be as big or thick as a air to air intercooler for the same cooling capacity
3. The heat exchanger does not heat the air passing through it as much as an air to air intercooler
4. Less under under the hood space is required because of the lack of air tubing
5. The efficiency can be increased by adding ice to a water tank in the system

CONS
1. Systems tend to heat soak faster at idle
2. Needs to be driven by an electric pump
3. More components need to run the system so there are more points of failure
4. Since it is a water system it adds extra weight to the vehicle (8 pounds per gallon of water in the system)

At this point I was willing to try anything so what the hell. I installed a water to air intercooler system on my car. I went with the following components:
Frozen Boost 12x12x2 heat exchanger
Frozen Boost Remote Radiator Inline Filler Cap -3/4"
CX Racing intercooler pump
CX Racing Aluminum 13.75x4.75x4 inch charger cooler
3/4" Water Lines
9 inch Radiator fan mounted to heat exchanger
Relay wired to give the pump power with ignition on
Generic Radiator overflow reservoir

I found that once I got all the parts, installing the system was not that hard and I was happy to gain some space back under the hood and behind the bumper. No more having to worry about an intercooler pipe popping off in a hard to reach location. I also switched the heat exchanger fan switch out so that it would turn on at 210 degrees and off at 195 degrees so hopefully the fan would not run the whole time.
https://postimg.org/image/nb20kguvx/

https://postimg.org/image/s75nc5v19/

https://postimg.org/image/9djuf5wt9/

Then I took it for a drive and was pleasantly surprised. The water temps never rose past 204 degrees on the freeway on a 100 degree day and the intercooler fan never came on because it was never needed. I was so happy! smile.gif

I am reaping the benefits from the pros on my list now I need to prepare for the cons because going water to air has its trade offs. Here is how I plan to deal with the cons I have listed:
1. I have a fan on the heat exhanger and plan to have it wired into my standalone ECU so it will cut on when intake air temps reach a certain level as well as when engine coolant level temps rise.
2. I plan to install a water temp sensor on the system to alert me to issues if the water pump or other components are not working properly.
3. Nothing I can do about the added weight but at least I can drive with the AC on.

Posted by: Box Jul 26, 2017 - 1:17 AM

A/C is life, so worth it.

Posted by: slavie Jul 27, 2017 - 4:39 PM

You reduced the area of the radiator that was getting blocked by the IC piping quite a bit. Engine bay is also looking much better, if I were to judge.

Interested in how you plumbed in the overflow tank, and where you put it. That's one thing I haven't figured out yet for my system (whenever i finally get to it...)

Posted by: HardHead93 Jul 27, 2017 - 5:53 PM

QUOTE (slavie @ Jul 27, 2017 - 5:39 PM) *
Interested in how you plumbed in the overflow tank, and where you put it. That's one thing I haven't figured out yet for my system (whenever i finally get to it...)


The overflow tank I plumbed like you would a radiator so that when pressure builds up the radiator cap opens to let coolant in or out. As for an ice tank, that needs to be plumbed inline with the system after the charge cooler but before the heat exchanger. I bought an ice tank but I have not installed it yet because it will require me to run lines to the trunk where I plan to put the tank. I plan to do that down the road. For right now I have about 1 1/2 gallon circulating through the system. The intercooler fan and airflow keep it cool enough. Like I said before I plan to get the intercooler fan wired into the standalone ECU so it will run to keep a target air intake temperature. I like the system so far.

Posted by: Bitter Jul 27, 2017 - 9:02 PM

I can't remember if it was you or someone else but I feel like I suggested this a while back?

Posted by: HardHead93 Jul 27, 2017 - 9:37 PM

It was you Bitter.

QUOTE (Bitter @ Apr 21, 2017 - 1:28 PM) *
Wire it to an IAT with a fan controller kit so it comes on at your target IAT.


It is a great idea for me do get that set up as soon as possible so I can keep my IATs in check and the engine does not start retarding timing to stop from knocking.

Right not I took the car out for a drive and did some pretty decent pulls to make sure I have worked out all the kinks. When I got home and popped to hood, the charge cooler was cool to the touch, even with all the other heated up engine components near by. That is pretty cool, That is giving me peace of mind that the system is working as it should. Another bonus to this water to air intercooler is that I am getting the same amount of boost with less waste gate duty cycle. I am guessing it is the low pressure loss from the charge cooler and the shorter amount of intercooler piping.

Posted by: Bitter Jul 27, 2017 - 10:33 PM

That's great it's working so well. IAT controlled fan shouldn't be too hard, can probably do that with a simple radiator fan controller kit if you want it sooner than later I suppose.

Posted by: HardHead93 Jul 27, 2017 - 11:44 PM

I have the intercooler fan on a kit that turns on the intercooler fan when engine coolant temps reach 200 and turn off at 185. The lowest temp kit I could find was 150 degrees which is still to high for me to put it into the intake. That is why I am planning on wiring it into the standalone ECU. Megaquirt has a function where you can have a circuit turn on/off when certain user defined conditions are met. Do you know of where I can get an IAT switch that is rated for 100 degrees because that would be idea of when the fan should turn on? If not the standalone is my only option.

Posted by: Bitter Jul 28, 2017 - 12:03 AM

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/55-120-Degree-Digital-Temperature-Controller-DC-12V-Thermostat-Temperature-Control-Red-And-Blue-Display/32802550722.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.2.YMJ6Uc&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_2_10152_10065_10151_10068_10130_10084_10083_10080_10307_10082_10081_10110_10178_10137_10111_10060_10112_10113_10155_10114_10154_10056_10055_10054_10310_10312_10059_100031_10099_10078_10079_10103_10073_10102_10052_10053_10142_10107_10050_10051-10102,searchweb201603_1,ppcSwitch_5&btsid=e6975bb2-638e-4f34-8d2d-c0ef6c0e46c3&algo_expid=437c7dba-0e56-44db-9412-0333ba6b5204-0&algo_pvid=437c7dba-0e56-44db-9412-0333ba6b5204

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/DC-AC-12V-24V-Two-Relay-Output-Digital-Temperature-Controller-STC-1000-Thermostat-50-99-Degree/32790927127.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.10.YMJ6Uc&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_2_10152_10065_10151_10068_10130_10084_10083_10080_10307_10082_10081_10110_10178_10137_10111_10060_10112_10113_10155_10114_10154_10056_10055_10054_10310_10312_10059_100031_10099_10078_10079_10103_10073_10102_10052_10053_10142_10107_10050_10051-10102,searchweb201603_1,ppcSwitch_5&btsid=e6975bb2-638e-4f34-8d2d-c0ef6c0e46c3&algo_expid=437c7dba-0e56-44db-9412-0333ba6b5204-1&algo_pvid=437c7dba-0e56-44db-9412-0333ba6b5204

One of those might work, look funky but work.

Posted by: HardHead93 Aug 6, 2017 - 12:42 AM

I got my new gauge installed today. Before I had a gauge that only measured engine water temp. I switched it out for one that I can measure engine water temp and intercooler water temp. The top number is engine temp and the bottom in the intercooler. Here is a picture of it in action.
https://postimg.org/image/kxzinsr7p/
My hope is that this gauge will alert me to any problems with the intercooler system so I can let off the gas and not boost the motor with high intake temps. The ECU will retard timing if it see high intake temps but it can only do so much if the water pump were to stop working or I had a water leak.

I took the car for a drive with the new gauge and I was very surprised at how much the intercooler system heat soaks at stop. The water temps ranged from 85 to 95 degrees when I was driving. As soon as I was idling the water temps would climb to 115 in a matter of minutes. Then they would drop quickly as soon as I started moving again. I really need to get my intercooler fan on a switch that turns on with a certain intake temp.

Posted by: Bitter Aug 6, 2017 - 2:34 PM

And of course some nozzles to mist water at the heat exchanger WRC style.

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