I test drove a Cobalt SS today. I was debating with some people about the traction issues with higher powered fwd cars which lead to this. I wanted to drive an srt-4, but I couldn't find a Dodge dealership close enough. I figured the supercharged Cobalt would be okay. The guy told me it was underated at 213hp to the wheels. I don't know about underated, but I'd believe 213. I wasn't really impressed though. I've driven faster. But with the traction, I didn't have a problem. It was the model without the LSD too. I've still got to find a srt-4, which I think will have more issues because of higher hp. But really, I didn't have a problem at all keeping traction. But, it was a nice dry day, and it has Z rated Prelli's on it.

What is your point? Are you trying to suggest that this experience proves that you were right about high horsepower FWD cars not having traction problems? Come on now.

No, I'm not saying I'm right. I'm still saying it's not to bad. This wasn't that high of hp, and it was a dry day with good tires. I have to do more testing. One test doesn't prove anything. I need to find a way to measure this. I don't think I have the tools to really make this a propper study, but I'll take opinions and ideas on what I should do.

btw, that thing really put my Celica to shame. I'm not real happy with the slow POS again.

there is no need for testing. high hp fwd cars are going to have traction issues. conservation of rotational inertia and the the fact that the cars center of mass is above the roads surface (therefore a moment is imposed on the car) are the two factors that cause "nosing up" during acceleration. theres really no way around it, acceleration causes a higher normal force to be placed on the rear tires, and therefore more torque can be applied before traction is lost. the cobalt ss and srt4 arent high enough horsepower where this will be a problem (and im willing to guess they both have a decent amount of mass over the front axel).

I'm not by any means debating the fact that fwd cars will have more issues than rwd. I just don't think they are as horrable as some people say. I just watched an episode of "Redline TV" a little bit ago, and they had a 320hp 4 door 95 Integra running on the track with a lot of success. They also had a fwd Cobalt that made the fasted time at the track. It beat out all the rwd and awd cars. It beat a purpose built Evo, Skyline, Chaser, and RX-7. This is enough proof to me. FWD cars can hook up and run with the rwd and awd cars. They'll never be as fast off the line as either, but on the street, I think they'll be okay.

Umm... high horsepower/torque FWD cars have serious serious traction issues. However... cars DESIGNED with high power and torque in mind typically have properly geared trannies and suspension to handle a lot of the low speed traction problems. I've driven 400+ turbo whp Hondas that are nearly unstreetable. Others with 300 or so whp eat through tires like no tomorrow. Of course this can be managed with mild driving... but who the hell makes 300+whp to drive mild? Traction becomes an issue when you start making a lot of torque. Horsepower is just a measurement over time.

Anyway... IMO... a fun car to drive is not neccesarily a highly powerful one. It should be light and nimble... AND most importantly... driveable.

They are pretty bad dude. Some get bad enough that they're no longer fun to just drive around. Of course this is reffering to something like 300-400+whp. Also... traction problems are only on slow starts and while the car's moving slowly (from a dead stop, during corner exit, etc). I doubt anyone will argue a FWD car has traction issues at higher speeds or during race situations, but during slow speed accel, there are serious issues.

I do believe that the Cobalt SS has boost kept low in 1st and 2nd then full in 3rd...i dont kow the specifcs.

EDIT: This post was dirrected at Kwanza, not Supersprynt. You're cool too Super, don't feel bad.

^^I think you have more experiance than anyone else I've talked to. The question for me was debating on swapping the Celica. I want something that will outrun almost any other street car in my town. A 12sec street car that is more than cabable on a road course. I don't really want to face the fact that a 3sgte is a waste. Looks like I might just be another one of those guys in an STi. After driving that Cobalt, it reminded me how much I like to go fast. I haven't driven anything fast for over a year. I just put around in the Celica. And I've got to say, at 213whp, I was not impressed. I want something so fast I can feel it in my eyes as I take off.

IMO... the difference in road course times between a 250whp and 350whp FWD celica would be very minor depending on the complexity of the course (the more complex, the closer the times). I've said this before (and was flamed) in refrence to the Beams SS3 Celica versus a ST205 GT4. I said, actual power to the ground is meaningless if you cannot utilize it fully. 350whp... It'll be pretty hard to go full throttle anywhere besides straights. The more powerful the motor... the better throttle control you better have otherwise traction hurts. Not saying it's not possible... but the degree of difficulty increases exponentially. On the street... 250 or so whp is more than enough to smoke the sh!t out of most cars. Very rarely would you come across something that can compete... from a roll. Evo's and Sti's wouldn't be too much competition from a roll, IMO... against a FWD Celica with around 200-250whp. This is a reason why I've always prefered high powered high revving n/a cars when it comes to track racing. They are much much more predictable and can utilize nearly all of their available power anytime.

i know how you feel. i love cruising in my friends cobra (460+ whp) or saleen. his is the black cobra, its like a damn rocket when he floors it!. the saleen is my favorite though


makes me hate driving my car afterwards . but i agree with kwanza,

"Anyway... IMO... a fun car to drive is not neccesarily a highly powerful one. It should be light and nimble... AND most importantly... driveable."

if your looking for a 12 sec car, the fwd celica is definitly not the platform. if youre not that attatched to the 6g, sell it, and go buy something else. for me though, im happy with my slow st, it moves me around just fine . in my opinion, keep the celi as a dd, and if you want to go fast, just get a bike!

I just want to build an absolute monster. I've had my moments when I wanted a quick NA car, but I want that too. I just want everything. A car that can outrun most any street car on any type of course. I know, it's impossible. It's more important for it to have snappy handeling and good throttle response. And as for hp numbers. I really don't care what it puts down, and long as it's fast. If it ended up dynoeing at 200hp, but I could still outrun everybody, I'd be happy.


A car does have to be light and nimble. That's one of my complanets about the Cobalt. It had good handling, there's no doubt in that. It just felt like a boat. But it was a nice handling boat. I have a bike setting at home wating to be fixed if I want to mess with it. It's a good bit of work to get it running. It's my dad's old bike. 79 Kawisaki 750, with 4 cylinder motor and the 4 carbs. I've rn through the forums on those, and they are fast. Still, it's a bigger bike than I want. I want something with more power and less weight.

imo

any fwd car that is capable of going 12's(and not be fully gutted/race prepped) is not going to be easy to drive until around 40mph

a stock srt4 doesnt get traction till 1/4 of the way through 2nd gear. they have ~230whp and run high 13's when driven right

a buddy of mine had a vtec prelude with a turbonetics turbo kit on it. running 10lbs the car would peel through 3rd if u shifted hard

and even then, it wasnt a 12 second capable car.

agreed, i cant even think of any fwd celica running 12's or lower besides the HKS celica (and i dont want to even know how much $$$ went into that). does anybody on here run 12's? i wonder what nik will run when he is finished.

but ya, even my friends cobra "only" runs mid-low 12's if i remember right.

I'm looking into STi's again now. Only thing I worry about is if it's going to be nimble enough. It's all fun.

Cobalt SS's are like 3000lbs... no two door sports compact should weight that much... wtf is wrong with Chevy?

you need to go out right now and buy a 1973 porsche 914 and swap in a flat 6 from a 911. not only will it be fast and nimble, but it will outrun pretty much everything you will be able to find on the street in a straight line or in the twisties. its an 1800 lb car with around 210 hp and it will kill

There is a copy of Car&Driver down at work that was comparing the Cobalt SS, Ion Redline, RSX-S, SRT-4 ACR, and a WRX. The SRT-4 was the fastest with a 13sec flat 1/4 mile, however it came in 3rd overall below the WRX and the RSX. They said that it (SRT-4) was noisy at all RPM's and that "It is a one trick pony that should be saved for SCCA track days". The Cobalt came in 4th, they said it was slow, heavy, and too much plastic inside.


I don't know if anyone has seen the interior of an Ion Redline, but it is the tackiest thing I have ever seen. Guages in the middle of the dash and a small boost guage with a shift light right in front of you. If you were building a car like that shouldn't you have the Tach with a shift light or something?

I remember that article. The RSX-S took first place despite coming in last in most of the performance tests. That's pretty typical of Car & Driver; if it's a Honda it automatically wins.

I would think its due to Honda just making a better overall vehicle, but thats just me....

Car and Driver is a good mag. I have a subscription to it. I get irritated at the way they test things sometimes and who wins in the end. Bunch of biases go into the desision. I remember one that really made me mad was the GTO vs Mustang issue. They added up the points for best G's, best 0-60, best interior, best style points and all that. Then at the end, the GTO was ahead. But the Mustang won because of the "Got to have it factor," which hadded like 12 points to it's score. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of all. I have an old Mustang, so naturally, I'm a fan. But that was BS. And then with the test between the SVT Cobra and WRX STi. The STi beat it in everything, then they called it a tie. I trust their numbers. The 0-60 and what not. You can lisson to the opinions of the staff, but don't take it as gospel.

I have a subscription to C & D also and, although this is the third time in about a week, I am going to have to agree with the Bulldog again. That comparison conclusion was BS!

Car and Driver has always been known for that crap. They are bias.

thought you might like these if you havnt seen them already

10 second civic talk about a sleeper (minus the drag tires of course) lol

this is in kph, but still it looks to hit 60mph in around 4secs

another fast civic (speedometer)

^Very cool. I would paint the intercooler black through. Big bright intercooler is a dead give-away that you've got something going on. Other than that, that car was pretty cool. I don't trust those speedoes to much, to easy to fake. The black Civic seemed to hook up nice. I bet it would be different if he had to turn. Maybe not though.

I'm pretty sure that civic wasn't a street car, so there's no need to try and make it look like a sleeper... the guy has a parachute on the back of it for crying out loud.

That thing could have been taken off very easily. And besides that, why would you have those wheels on the back if it wasn't a street car? You could say show car, but it didn't have any thing special to make it a show car. And I can't see if it's just a fake plate or what, but there is a plate on the back. I can't tell if it's licences though, but it could be.

If you are worried about traction, buy an 5th gen alltrac. You dont even have to swap to have a 3sgte!

i would bet that that civic is running a spool, going by how straight the car drove and no visual torque steer. if it does have a spool, its not streetable

also, have any of you seen a 10 second honda in person? they dont really like to idle. kinda takes away from the streetability. also its probably stripped down to the point where its pretty much an engine with four wheels.

my friend's 9 second turbo mustang has heater, power steering, power accessories and full interior. also a 4spd overdrive auto tranny. thats a street/streetable car.