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6G Celicas Forums > 6th Generation Celica > Engine/Transmission/Maintenance
recneps
so ive still got some money left over and im still looking to do some stuff to my car. and i was thinking of advancing my timing. from what ive read 12 BTDC will not cause a knock as long as i use a higher octane gas.

i was thinking about purchasing a pair of these

http://www.aempower.com/product_cam.asp

my questions are.

one how much horsepower will i gain from advancing my timing?

also i was just want to confrm that our cars run at 10 BTDC stock.

any advice or tips would be much appreciated.
spunky393
"ideal for heavily modified engines"

that's the first thing i caught my eye, so maybe someone should go off of that?
recneps
yeah but well i figured that ya know intake, exaust, and pully my cars pretty modded. haha.

anyways that "ideal for heavily modified engines" dosnt reall phase me because of the word ideal. i mean when i hear that it makes me think that a stock celi is going to gain 5 hp off this product and a turbo 5sfe with all the bolt-on is going to gain 10.

anyways still looking for how much hp some thinks ill gain from this and or for some one to confirm the timing of the 5sfe.
chucho
i dont see anything for the 5sfe, they have stuff for 3sgte but not 5sfe
Kwanza26
There's only ONE cam gear in the 7AFE and 5SFE motors... and the cams run off of slave gears that are timed to each other... so cam timing is quite limited, which makes adjustable cam gears for our cars... nearly useless in n/a trim...
spunky393
Good info Kwanza, i should've mentioned that
Hanyo
what does adjusting cams do for a car?
recneps
it advances the timings of the car and increases combustion chamber pressure.


oh has anyone had anyluck with sending their cam shafts in to get done?
recneps
how much adjustion do these cam gears allow for. what do you mean by
QUOTE
so cam timing is quite limited
doe sthis mean only like 5 BTDC retard or advance or like .5 retard or advance.

also please explain this slave gear a little more throughly.

oh also if you could point me in the direction of these cam gear it would be awesome.
Kwanza26
QUOTE (recneps @ Jul 24, 2004 - 6:33 AM)
how much adjustion do these cam gears allow for. what do you mean by
QUOTE
so cam timing is quite limited
doe sthis mean only like 5 BTDC retard or advance or like .5 retard or advance.

also please explain this slave gear a little more throughly.

oh also if you could point me in the direction of these cam gear it would be awesome.

It seems more like you don't understand what I'm saying...

There is a single cam gear that dives both cams... there's nothing more to explain. You have to know the reason behind cam timing and tuning to understand why it would be nearly worthless for our motors... simply because it wouldn't be much different from normal timing adjustments using the dizzy...
recneps
ok Kwanza26 sorry bout that anyway i didnt know i could adjust my timing using my distriubtor, back to advancing my timing.

all i have to do is just twist the distributor to set the timing, then tighten the bolts, right. right now its on the mark im guessing thats 10 BTDC.

anyways do you think ill develop a knock if i run 16 BTDC on 93 octane?



Fox-N-It2
Ignition timing and cam timing are 2 different things. Cam gears are typically used to adjust the powerband in an RPM range. Very useful on N/A motors with big cams.

They are also not allowed in some SCAA classes though you can buy woodruff keys from summit thet have the advance or retard built in to the key eliminating the need of the adj gear.
Kwanza26
QUOTE (Fox-N-It2 @ Jul 24, 2004 - 10:08 PM)
Ignition timing and cam timing are 2 different things. Cam gears are typically used to adjust the powerband in an RPM range. Very useful on N/A motors with big cams.

Correct... but that's not the point here. The point is whether it'll be very useful for the 7AFE and/or 5SFE... other motors such as 3SGE's and 4AGE's will make good use of cam timing... but the FE head design is quite limited in terms of cam timing.
recneps
ok well thank you that answers my question sort of. even though you said that earlier and i dint pay attention.
Fox-N-It2
QUOTE (Kwanza26 @ Jul 24, 2004 - 10:51 PM)
Correct... but that's not the point here. The point is whether it'll be very useful for the 7AFE and/or 5SFE... other motors such as 3SGE's and 4AGE's will make good use of cam timing... but the FE head design is quite limited in terms of cam timing.

I agree with you about the 7a motor as it would not be worth trying to squeeze the extra power out of it but the 5s doesnt get enough credit i dont think. I am currently working on porting a 5s head and I see alot of room for improvement. With a good port, polish and valve job A big web cam would definatly Pull harder in the upper RPM's. I dont see that motor wanting to rev to 7k+ rpms all the time though atleast on a stock valve train. I would/will use a adj cam gear to bring that powerband back down to a useable area.

This is my firtst Toyota motor build and a turbo 5s is in the projects list over the winter. I've read alot and have found alot more speculation that hard evidence that the 5s "sucks". But who knows i might be proven wrong and maby it does suck......

As for ignition timing i have read of people pushing as far as 18BTDC on 93 octane. Never tried but when i get to that point i'll let ya know.
recneps
QUOTE
I would/will use a adj cam gear to bring that powerband back down to a useable area.


id love to see how this goes as for me ive decided its not a worth waste of money.

anyways yeah id love to see the true ptoential of the 5sfe motor ive heard itll do around 160-170 with a lot of work. i dunno im sticing with this enigne even though people tell me i should swap but well this is my only car and i cant drop a couple of g's to not have my car for months.

anyways to side topic has anyone in here replaced the stock 5sfe valve with the 1mm ones? ive heard its the best upgrad eyou can do to the engine.
spunky393
start a new post on that next quetsion AFTER you research the question, you'll get more replies
Kwanza26
QUOTE (Fox-N-It2 @ Jul 25, 2004 - 2:23 AM)
I agree with you about the 7a motor as it would not be worth trying to squeeze the extra power out of it but the 5s doesnt get enough credit i dont think. I am currently working on porting a 5s head and I see alot of room for improvement. With a good port, polish and valve job A big web cam would definatly Pull harder in the upper RPM's. I dont see that motor wanting to rev to 7k+ rpms all the time though atleast on a stock valve train. I would/will use a adj cam gear to bring that powerband back down to a useable area.

I don't want to disappoint you, but I must point out some information for you first. All those who have attempted n/a 5SFE builds were all disappointed. The best I've seen was on the MR2 boards with a guy dynoing around 150whp (~170-180 hp at the crank). That's not bad... but considering the money involved... it's not as good as a turbo build, or a swap. On the topic of revving the 5SFE... well, that's not a good idea either. The rod/stroke ratio is not very good, and I just don't see the stock rods living beyond 8000 rpms (if even that), and the head, if kept with the stock valvetrain, won't even see that.
As for the comparison, 5SFE has disadvantages to the 7AFE out of the box considering the 7AFE still maintains a decent rod/stroke ratio allowing it to potentially make much more horsepower in the higher rpms, not to mention it shares piston interchangeability with 7rib 4AGE's, which greatly increases potential for the 7A block (higher comp pistons for n/a builds, lower comp forged for turbo builds). The 5SFE, as far as I know, has very little aftermarket support, and its only serious advantage over the 7AFE, is its displacement. In both cases, they are most limited by the head design, which faults their n/a buildability. With a head swap, both have serious potential... but IMO, it'll all be a bit too expensive in terms of dollars per horsepower (speaking as one who wandered down that road before). Good luck on the build... and back on topic... an adjustable cam gear is not at all needed to perform cam timing adjustments in general... it just makes things easier... and I'll still maintain, all the less worthwhile with the cam set-up in the FE heads... ;]
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