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94celicadude
Hey all,
I am currently building up my 7afe, i have bought a separate head and have already had new valve guides installed, its been cleaned and i have brand new toyota valves, exhaust and intake, i have had the intake ones machined to have more of the performance "penny on a stick" figure, i will post pics soon but for now here is an example Valves.

I am also going to have the Extrude Hone process ( Extrude Hone ) done to the entire head. The current 7afe in my car has a custom 4-1 headers (Headers), full exhaust, intake, clutch, lightweight flywheel, Apexi S-AFC II, bumped timing to about 14 degrees static timing. If i can find a used GT throttle body i will try to make it work, they seem to be fairly similar. Its been tuned and it has over 225k miles on the original engine. The gear box has been rebuild to brand new, and at last dyno the car was putting just about exactly 100 WHP on a 95 F day.

So i figure its already a healthy working little motor. To make this short, i was wondering who has had the highest NA horsepower out of a 7-afe . I am hoping to be able to build my motor to about 120-130 WHP, that would be ideal but im not sure exactly if i will achieve that goal. The bottom end is going to get first O.S. pistons, the head will be decked for a slightly higher compression ratio, and the entire engine will be blue printed. Then the entire crank assembly will be dynamically balanced with the flywheel and all the accessories on either end of it. Then it will all be put back together and have another tuning session on the dyno.

Now i know that it seems like a lot of money to do everything i am, which it is for only 130 WHP, but im looking to make this a great motor for auto-x. And if i have 200 WHP then ill just create a smoke show, so thats why im not just swapping in something else.

**CLIFF NOTES**

Who has the highest NA power 7afe with dyno numbers to prove it? kindasad.gif
Bitter
200whp isnt going to happen, 130-140 crank would be a little optimistic i think without some tinkering with the cams. with what you have listed i'd expect around 110-120whp with a good tune. make sure you do all your runs on the same dyno tho, as theres alot of variation between those things.
Kwanza26
Just swap in a 20V 4AG and you'll already have more power stock than any high-tuned 7AFE...
devilsden97
^ +1

6gc.net, killing 1 dream at a time.
Blakout16
haha ur totally stealing my line. didnt u see i copyrighted that?! tongue.gif
94celicadude
QUOTE(devilsden97 @ Aug 31, 2007 - 3:54 PM) [snapback]592412[/snapback]

^ +1

6gc.net, killing 1 dream at a time.


yea thats about right...lol
i understand that my goals are a little far fetched. I never said ANYTHING about 200WHP out of the motor, if you read carefully i specifically said i didnt want 200 WHP. I am still wondering if anyone has dyno numbers of they 7afe with anything over 100 whp?
raj1
here is my dyno results i got last year on my 7afe

the mods were a blitz sonic induction kit with stock intake piping and exhaust with decat. At the time i got my safc II mapped the tuner at the dyno mapped it to a/f 14.6 the end result was 133.8bhp @ the flywheel and 99bhp at the wheels
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i have since mapped the safc II myself to a/f 12.8 on the road since i havent been able to afford any dyno time and im sure i have more power now
95CelicaST
130 WHP = 4A-GE Silvertop stock

It would be cheaper to swap than to build the 7A... Sad, but true. If you want a good AutoX car then the 4AGE would be great. You would be staying in high RPM's anyways, you might as well add the power of VVT to the mix.
jason
doesnt engine swapping change the type of class your in for autox? i could be wrong, but seems like "cheating" in my mind, build the 7a, id respect your efforts to the max!
Hanyo
if you are going to try to go all motor, you might was well go for individual throttle bodies.

I think edos holds the record for the most N/A 7afe hp. I THINK he made 130. i can't find the post at the moment.

j0e_p3t
QUOTE
Who has the highest NA power 7afe with dyno numbers to prove it?

probably this guy...
http://www.6gc.net/members/edo17982
bindertch
Where are you getting an extrude hone job done and how much is that costing you. If it is done right you could outflow a 4AGE. I also think that you should look into getting your head flow tested. After you do that you can figure out your perfect lift from a cam and get your cams reground by any cam manufacturer.
94celicadude
QUOTE(bindertch @ Sep 2, 2007 - 2:12 AM) [snapback]592722[/snapback]

Where are you getting an extrude hone job done and how much is that costing you. If it is done right you could outflow a 4AGE. I also think that you should look into getting your head flow tested. After you do that you can figure out your perfect lift from a cam and get your cams reground by any cam manufacturer.


i dont know if i will be able to get the head flow tested, my dad used to have a flow bench but he traded it for having his 76 BMW 90RS restored, but if i can find a place that can do that for me i will. I have also worked out that with the size valves in the 7-afe head, the lift on the cam is optimal, i would not gain much over the entire power band by having the cam reground, i know i could gain up top if i sacrificed low end torque, but the thing is like some said, i want to build a good auto-x motor, and i run mostly in the midrange during auto-x so that wouldnt be as advantageous for me. And yes if i swapped another motor in i would be out of my class. Thanks for edo's profile his motor is a piece of art! and thanks for the member that posted his dyno chart. Does anyone have any other ideas on what i could do to push more power out of this thing, i mean except for the obvious previously stated. Thanks for all your comments and support, i will try to take as many pics of my progress as possible and hopefully help you learn with my mistakes *praying for very few*. Any feedback and ideas are always welcome.
94celicadude
QUOTE(jason @ Sep 1, 2007 - 5:49 AM) [snapback]592569[/snapback]

doesnt engine swapping change the type of class your in for autox? i could be wrong, but seems like "cheating" in my mind, build the 7a, id respect your efforts to the max!


thanks for the prospective respect
thumbsup.gif
Bitter
get a standalone ECM so you can have full control over the engine.
Kwanza26
QUOTE(jason @ Sep 1, 2007 - 5:49 AM) [snapback]592569[/snapback]

doesnt engine swapping change the type of class your in for autox? i could be wrong, but seems like "cheating" in my mind, build the 7a, id respect your efforts to the max!

if you significantly mod the motor... you change classes also. I'd prefer a swap...
94celicadude
Well,

i do not mean to bring this thread back from the dead, but i have gotten a lot of progress done on my 7AFE build. The motor was pulled last week and torn apart to the last nut and bolt. I have few pics but its hard to take pics with dirty hands. I have had the cylinder head ready for several weeks now, all i needed was to pull the motor and do the bottom end.

so as far as the motor goes here is a lis of what will have been done to it:

Top End:

-Head was decked
-New Valve Guides
-New Valves on both intake and exhaust
-Intake Valves have been machined for increased flow
-3-angle valve job
-Cylinder head had Extrude Hone process performed on it
-Combustion chambers were balanced and polished and are within .05 mL of each other
-Cams were shimmed for proper clearances
-Intake Manifold was dipped and cleaned and had a "casting wart" removed from cylinder #4 runner
-Custom Fender Well CAI system w/ K&N

Bottom End:

-Bored .2 over to fit first over-size pistons for slightly higher CR
-New Pistons, rings and appropriate hardware
-New main bearing and rod bearings
-Rod have been shot peened
-Entire rotating assembly has been dynamically balanced (Crank pulley, timing gear, crankshaft, flywheel, pressure plate)
-Block has been decked
-Lightweight flywheel (9lbs) has been resurfaced
-New oil pump
-New water pump
-New Clutch
-Entire Short block assembled by machine shop

Exhaust:

-Custom 4-1 Headers
-Custom 2" SS exhaust
-Removed Cat
-Ebay fart canon on the end of it biggrin.gif

I think that this is the majority of the things that have been done to this motor, i may have left out some things but i hope you all understand that appropriate seals and gaskets have also been replaced.

My goal is to get this thing back into my car and running before the end of Feb. i hope to then be able to put miles on it and have it tuned again for optimum performance. I am hoping and praying that we can hit about 120-130 WHP with this setup.

Now for those who are sceptical on why i would have spent so much money on building a NA 7AFE, well i wanted to do something that not too many other have done, and its my auto-x car and i wanted to be able to stay in the same class as i have been competing and winning in, so a motor swap would have put me into a different class completely.

I hope you guys appreciate the amount of work and the few pioneering things that have gone into this build. Questions are welcomed and so are comments. I will try to take more pics of the reassembly stage, i will hopefully be getting bottom end back in a day or two.

PS. Motor put down 100 WHP with 230K miles on it before rebuild, which is higher than most NA 7AFE motors out there, i think...
lagos
Good luck. At least your actually doing this and not just dreaming about it like most people. Hope you meet your goal.
Bitter
why stay with nearly stock CR? could have bumped it upto a touch over 10:1 without any problems burning pump gas. also are you planning to get cams?
94celicadude
well, i had to stay only with the first oversize pistons because the class i run in auto-x allows for only the first over size. Thats the main reason that the CR is stayin close to that, and for cams, i do not yet know but i think that im going to try to get a set of cams reground and possibly play with that for more power, but for the moment i am staying with stock cams.
n1ckz0r
QUOTE(94celicadude @ Aug 31, 2007 - 5:51 PM) [snapback]592490[/snapback]

QUOTE(devilsden97 @ Aug 31, 2007 - 3:54 PM) [snapback]592412[/snapback]

^ +1

6gc.net, killing 1 dream at a time.


yea thats about right...lol
i understand that my goals are a little far fetched. I never said ANYTHING about 200WHP out of the motor, if you read carefully i specifically said i didnt want 200 WHP. I am still wondering if anyone has dyno numbers of they 7afe with anything over 100 whp?



I lol at your avat. ANON?
95st-celica
sounds good man...good luck...you should be able to squeeze 125 hp out of that i would hope
laff09
Whatd it cost you? and when are ya going to get it dyno'd?
Bricy
you should look into a set of webcam regrinds, Hurley had some put in her 7a with great results.
playr158
I'll donate an extra set of stock cams for a regrind just to see what it does laugh.gif
zbigb
Im following your progress with interest. I am researching the 7AFE in NA form because I am planning on building one too. I have not found much about how these engines respond to bigger cams. I just finished measuring the specs on a set of stock cams from a 1994 Corolla 7AFE and was shocked to see how short the duration is.

Intake 147 degrees @ .050
Exhaust 151 degrees @ .050
Overlap at TDC is less that .020

I have built up lots of different engines over the years and have never seen a cam with such short duration. For this engine to make the power it does with this small of a cam says a lot for the tuning Toyota did. It also says a lot for the combustion chamber and ports. The combustion chamber benefits from being so small and shallow. The fast burn produces lots of torque. You can get high compression with dished pistons and still run on pump gas. If you are doing a rebuild, the Toyota 4AGZE piston can be used to get a good bump in compression. The port design is excellent, and looks very much like the port that was used on the Formula 1 engines. Small, but very straight allowing for high port velocity = wide power band.

I have recently spoken to several cam grinders. I have not found anyone that can get new cores for the cams. This is probably why not many people have been camming the 7A. I found a few cam grinders that will regrind your stock cams for $200 to 250 a pair. These are not welded, so you need to use lash caps under the cam buckets. You can also get welded regrinds for $300 600 a pair. You have to be careful with welded regrinds as the process is much harder (easier to screw up). A poorly done weld and cool down process leaves you with a cam that is bent or tends to bend after running.

It is likely that you do not need a big change in duration to feel a difference. The down side of changing the cam is that tuning the engine will likely get way harder. When you change the cam timing, you will need to start the tuning process all over to get the spark timing and a/f correct.

Good luck with your build up and hope you get 130+
94celicadude
^^^^^

wow thank you so much for that information, i have been dying to find out what the stock specs on the cams are but have not had the chance to measure them. This will help me out a lot in possibly obtaining a reground cam and getting better power out of this motor.

Thanks all for the positive comments, i just got a call today that the bottom end was done so i will pick it up tom. and start the reassembly process, i will try to take lots of pics in order to show my progress. Ill let you all know how it is going as soon as im done, hopefully the engine will be back up and running within the next two weeks. Wish me luck

Matt
Bricy
Good Luck! I know all of us 7a peeps are rootin for ya!
Bitter
QUOTE(94celicadude @ Feb 11, 2008 - 11:41 PM) [snapback]640575[/snapback]

well, i had to stay only with the first oversize pistons because the class i run in auto-x allows for only the first over size. Thats the main reason that the CR is stayin close to that, and for cams, i do not yet know but i think that im going to try to get a set of cams reground and possibly play with that for more power, but for the moment i am staying with stock cams.

you can get a higher CR with 4age pistons that have been modified slightly, without going over on the bore beyond your class specs. remember than the 4afe, 7afe, and 4age share the same bore diameter.
94celicadude
Well i got the bottom end back today, i think the pics are pretty self explanatory. If you have any questions just ask!

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Balanced Flywheel and Pressure Plate

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Cleaned Intake Manifold

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Hole created to remove "casting wart" (I have to weld it on the weekend, ill post a pic of it shut

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Close up of said hole

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SHINY!!!! biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

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New Water Pump

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More shiny/clean pieces laugh.gif

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Its truly a lot smaller than you would think tongue.gif

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Bottom End Already Assembled biggrin.gif

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Shot-peened Rods (dunno bout spelling)

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New pistons, bored cylinders, decked block

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New valves, machined intake valves, balanced/polished combustion chambers

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Close Up shot of the exhaust port, that is how smooth the extrude hone process makes it, better than just PORTING!! laugh.gif

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Shimming valves

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Notice matching marks on cam gears. Its a factory mods wink.gif

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Both cams in and bolted down, all valves shimmed to proper clearances.

I also just realized that i am going to need to remove the cams again to be able to bolt the head on woops rolleyes.gif

More pics to come soon of final re-assembly. Wish me luck
markjbutler
so clean and shiny!!

Wish I had the space/time/knowledge/another car to drive so i could play with my 3sGE like that frown.gif
hurley97
you're doing all that head work and putting the stock cams back in? that's a shame.

it's also a good idea to replace your starter before you put the engine back in the car, it's easier to get to with the engine out.
zbigb
If you do add some cams , here is a way to mod your intake for better high end pull. This shortens the intake track and adds a bit of volume to the plenum as well.


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stephen_lee
QUOTE(zbigb @ Feb 16, 2008 - 11:33 PM) [snapback]642265[/snapback]

If you do add some cams , here is a way to mod your intake for better high end pull. This shortens the intake track and adds a bit of volume to the plenum as well.


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would that help stock much? i doubt..
zbigb
Probably not. You would loose more low end than you make up on the top end. I would not do this unless you are running some cams with more than stock duration.
94celicadude
thnks for all they input.

Hurley, the reason i am putting stock cams into it is because i am trying to increase my power and torque around the midrange of the power band. As in around 2500-4500 RPM.

I do understand that cams would help me out a lot, but i feel that the gain would be mostly up to and i dont want that for specifically one reason, this is an auto-x car, so after i start my racing i go through first and then stay in second for the rest of run, so if my meak power and torque jumps up to around 5000 RPM or higher, the power avaiable to me becomes useless because i will never get that high in the RPM in second, thats reaching around 60 mph and i have rarely ever hit the fuel cut in second gear.

Now i am going to keep my stock cams from my other head and do some work and research to see if i can get a regrind that will in fact give me more power in the midrange.

Once again thank you all for the info and input, wish me luck as i head into the cold garage to put this motor back together.

Matt
hurley97
Call WebCams and tell them that, they will find a grind that suits your needs.
When I spoke to them I said my car would be turbocharged eventually, which normally increases power in the mid range so they gave me a grind that would increase slightly overall but kick in around the higher end, this way it holds out the power from the turbo longer.

The reason I say it's a shame to put the stock cams back in is this: you are doing all this work to make your head flow better, however, the head can only feed as much as the cams will let it. If the cams are opening the valves the same as before, you can take in as much air as you want through the intake plenum but the valves are only going to open enough to let in the same amount of air as before.

Basically what I'm trying to say is, yes it will run better and yes the head will flow better, but you aren't going to get the results I think you are looking for without being able to pull more air in through the valves, which you need bigger cams for.
Bitter
another good power adder for your midrange (dont know if this would change your auto-x class) is the ebay header. it moves that torque you feel from about 1500 rpm to about 3000 rpm rather nicely. i carve a canyon in 2nd gear and you really stay more in the powerband with the ebay header than the stock cast manifold. heatwrap it to keep your engine bay temps down, it does let out ALOT of heat. also, it weighs about 1/2 the stock part does.
jason
i think dustin's dyno shows a little if any gain through the bottom & mid range of the curve, then up high is where the stock fell off where the reground kept rising

like steph said, im sure if you called them for a specific purpose, they could make something for you. the 7a's max torque i believe is right at or around 3,000 so if you are keeping it between 2500 - 4500 anything above 3000 is going to be in the torque falloff part.

so if you were to get them reground, give yourself 15hp extra above 4000 (help on longer straights) keep the same stock torque down low, but add another 10ft/lbs from 3000 - 3500 you should have a descent performance, 10% about over stock - plus your additional mods that i dont believe steph and dustin did. (yes i know his was on a 5s)

i think you should consider getting a spare set re-ground. worse case, sell them to someone who wants a higher top end, and put your stockies back in. playr said he would even donate some to you =)
Bitter
actually from what i've seen the 7afe holds peak torque from about 2500 rpm till nearly 5200rpm and then it begins to fall slightly as the HP rises to its peak around 5600-5800rpm.

just because peak torque comes on early doesnt mean it falls off early either.
94celicadude
I have been contemplating doing the cam regrind, and i mean for anyone who has removed cams on a 7afe its really not hard, so even doing it in the car would be fine.

I think what is going to happen for now is im going to get the engine past its break in period, have it tuned again and see where i stand. I will then talk with Webcams and see if they can truly grind something that would give me the midrange kick that im looking for without pushing my peak power to 5500 rpm.

i REALLY appreciate all the info and input you are all giving me, it is most definitely helping me in achieving my most powerful NA 7afe motor. I did get most of the motor put back together yesterday, i have the head and bottom end all assembled and torqued, i will try to take a few pics. I should hopefully have it all done by the end of the day, depending on how long it takes me to clean up my intake plenum.

Once again thank you all for the input, its a great help. And thanks for the offer to donate some cams, but i have a spare set of stock cams myself, so if i decide to regrind those and they arent what i want, i make take you up on that offer for a donate set in order to try a different regrind.

*runs to garage to finish the motor* laugh.gif

Matt
Brightside
Interesting project you have here Matt.

I'm curious if you've done any port matching on the intake/heads/headers (or exhaust manifold) - especially since you had the runners in the heads opened up. It seems like you would want them to match spot-on if you really wanted this engine to breath as well as possible.

How much did you deck the head & block? Did you just deck them to get them true, or did you shave enough to actually change the compression ratio?
94celicadude
QUOTE(Brightside @ Feb 18, 2008 - 6:45 PM) [snapback]642805[/snapback]

Interesting project you have here Matt.

I'm curious if you've done any port matching on the intake/heads/headers (or exhaust manifold) - especially since you had the runners in the heads opened up. It seems like you would want them to match spot-on if you really wanted this engine to breath as well as possible.

How much did you deck the head & block? Did you just deck them to get them true, or did you shave enough to actually change the compression ratio?



Yes, i have not actually gotten to that part but it is in my plans to match the intake and exhaust ports to intake and exhaust manifolds.

The exhaust gasket and headers are actually fairly well matched, but i will touch them up just to make sure they are spot on. I think im going to have to work on the intake side a little more though, i am also going to make sure that the throttle body and intake plenum are all properly matched as well.

the head was decked in order to true it, and the block was decked by about two thousands in order to have it be true as well, so the intent was not to purposely raise the compression ratio even though i know that it did slightly.

My father did all the calculations and the engine will be running a 10:1 compression ratio with the head and block having been decked and the first over sized pistons, which is slightly higher than stock but i dont know exactly how much more it is.

I have gotten all of the engine assembled, all i need to do is finish porting the intake plenum and put the TB and intake manifold back onto the engine and it is ready to go back into the car. I will be putting it back in the car on saturday or sunday.

I will post pictures of my progress during the week.

Matt
Bitter
stock CR for the 7afe is about 9.5:1 so 1/2 a point i doubt you'll really feel it.

when you really feel a bump in CR is when its several points above what it was before. like going from 8:1 to 12:1. increasing CR makes more torque which through wonderful math makes more HP, but the nice thing about bumping the CR is that it makes torque all over the power band, not just in one spot.

btw, my GF's moped runs a higher CR than your car tongue.gif (and my car and just about any car on the road 13:1)
Kwanza26
QUOTE(94celicadude @ Feb 17, 2008 - 5:03 PM) [snapback]642464[/snapback]

Hurley, the reason i am putting stock cams into it is because i am trying to increase my power and torque around the midrange of the power band. As in around 2500-4500 RPM.

I do understand that cams would help me out a lot, but i feel that the gain would be mostly up to and i dont want that for specifically one reason, this is an auto-x car, so after i start my racing i go through first and then stay in second for the rest of run, so if my meak power and torque jumps up to around 5000 RPM or higher, the power avaiable to me becomes useless because i will never get that high in the RPM in second, thats reaching around 60 mph and i have rarely ever hit the fuel cut in second gear.

Nice pictures and nice work... but worthless without pistons and cams. You just can't make significant power without modifying compression and cams. I don't know who gave you the idea that camming a 7AFE will "move the torque curve to the high rpms" but seriously... it won't be that extreme. Cams alone are not gonna reverse engineer the head's inherit flow design. Cams will likely improve the entire powerband. If you want to call it "moving the torque curve up"... then yeah... it'll do that. That's the nature of the beast. BUT, it's not gonna decrease the low-mid range curve unless you go for some stupid amounts of overlap. I highly doubt a stockish 7AFE's ability to make power beyond 5000-5500 rpms.

As for racing... I haven't AutoX'ed in a while... but I remember rarely dropping below 5000 rpms. I did mostly circuit and club, so I DO want high rpm power over low rpms power because rotational power is much more useful and comes faster at higher speed.
94celicadude
After a lot of thought and a lot of being told that without cams and pistons i wont make much more power than stock, i am seriously going to look into cams for the motor. But i still want to run it the way it is to see what kind of gains we have accomplished.

I will post pics soon to keep you guys updated with the process.

Matt
94celicadude
Great news all!

i had a first start last night and she purred like a kitten laugh.gif laugh.gif
unfortunately i am missing drive shaft seals (on order) so i was not able to drive her around, she started on the third turn of the key and idled perfectly biggrin.gif

here are some more pics of the rebuild, and i have a video of first start up, i just need to post it on a website. Enjoy!

Now its on to break in period, and soon dyno!

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There is the patch to fill that hole i made

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So empty kindasad.gif

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@Friends Inside@...ran kinda ****ty laugh.gif

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going back in

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Bolted up baby!

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Lookin good wink.gif

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Check out them classy company jump suits laugh.gif (im on the left btw, and kyle is on the right)

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All buttoned up after first start tongue.gif

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So shiny!

Well there is a quick run down of it all, i will try to post up my video of the first sart, and soon i will take her out for a drive, then once the break in period is over she will hit the dyno for another tune...graphs and videos coming soon...
94celicadude
Here is a link to the video, please ignore everything that is said or happens after i shut it off, imy parents are dorks..lol and that was my buddy Kyle fiming.

First Startup
95st-celica
thats awesome man....good luck with everything and ill be lookin forward to seein some dyno results....do you think you will ever turbo it? because that would be the perfect 7A to turbo.....gl with everything though man
zero07
Nice job! Engine looks great!
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