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BonzaiCelica
I was wondering what the purpose of the final drive gear ratio?

also what is this? http://auctions.nengun.com/item/k113042803
Edophus
QUOTE (BonzaiCelica @ Jan 13, 2010 - 2:17 AM) *
I was wondering what the purpose of the final drive gear ratio?

also what is this? http://auctions.nengun.com/item/k113042803


the final drive ratio is the final gear multiplier before the torque gets to the wheels, increasin the final drive, shortens the gear ratios decreasing top speed in each gear but increasing wheel torque, decreasing it lengthens the gears increasing speed in each gear at the cost of wheel torque, the gear spacing however remains unchanged.

That link is the output shaft and ring gear, plus oil pump gear, that is the final drive, that set above is for an e56 gearbox, not the s series gearbox's that comes with most celica's, the e56 only came on superstrut equiped gen 6's up until august 1995 at which point they changed to s54 gearboxes on those. So quite hard to come by.
BonzaiCelica
thanks edophus. So do you think the gearing for the 3rd and 4th gen 3sge are perfectly matched to the engine? I noticed that the type r and rsx have high final drive gear ratio about 4.7 as apposed to the s54 having 4.176. Then again, you said it helps to increase torque, and we all know honda's vtec engine design has no torque whatsoever.
Edophus
QUOTE (BonzaiCelica @ Jan 13, 2010 - 4:17 PM) *
thanks edophus. So do you think the gearing for the 3rd and 4th gen 3sge are perfectly matched to the engine? I noticed that the type r and rsx have high final drive gear ratio about 4.7 as apposed to the s54 having 4.176. Then again, you said it helps to increase torque, and we all know honda's vtec engine design has no torque whatsoever.


laugh.gif yeah, but being serious the honda's have a higher rpm ceiling, you have to think about gearing in relation to the engines power band, so with the stock rev limiter of a 3s-ge at 7400, if it has a final drive of around 4.7 but otherwise stock ratio's the car will be neutered in terms of performance because although you've increased wheel torque, you've chopped off a chunk of gear speed, so having to shift much earlier. Without increasing the rev limit, the stock gear ratios are about right, maybe a little on the long side, but not bad, the spacing could be better, but thats just a compromise for road use. I suggest looking at mfactorys website, they have a great gear calculator, you can punch in differnet final drives, rev limits and wheel sizes etc to visualize how it all relates.

I actually have an e56, and one of those final drives you've linked above, but i am combining this with an 8000rpm rev limit, so i'm increasing torque to the wheels, but the increased rev limit means i'm only losing a few mph potential from each gear vs stock, so keeping it balanced.
Mstoochn
the S54 also cruises on the HWY at 3500RPM tongue.gif the RSX cruises at 2600
pittfirefighter
camry e153 ftw
Edophus
QUOTE (Mstoochn @ Jan 14, 2010 - 12:50 AM) *
the S54 also cruises on the HWY at 3500RPM tongue.gif the RSX cruises at 2600


thats a 6 speed right? handy to have an extra gear for cruising indeed.

the camry e153 is good for sure for a v6, or 3s-gte converted car but imo would be wasted on an NA 3s-ge cause who needs a top speed of 180mph + when you dont probably dont have enough power to even hit 150mph, its just wasting wheel torque, unless your going for fuel economy that is in which case it makes sense. My e56 with 4.9 final drive gives me a top speed of 141mph which is plenty for me.
Mstoochn
best idealistic trans i can think of for an NA 3s/5s would be a 96-99 s54 with the s51 5th gear for lower rpm crusing speed (higher top speed) and the LSD from an e52/56 smile.gif

E153 in a N/A car would be a dragg
Edophus
QUOTE (Mstoochn @ Jan 14, 2010 - 10:46 AM) *
best idealistic trans i can think of for an NA 3s/5s would be a 96-99 s54 with the s51 5th gear for lower rpm crusing speed (higher top speed) and the LSD from an e52/56 smile.gif

E153 in a N/A car would be a dragg


for road use yeah that probably pretty good, it would help if fourth was actually a little longer too, i find theres already a big enough gap between 4th and 5th that means as soon as your in 5th all acceleration dies until you get a bit higher up the revs, at which point aero kills laugh.gif

for track though the e56 with 4.9 final drive puts the wheel torque up to about the same as a v6 conversion but in 3rd/4th/5th the torques hitting the ground at higher gear speeds so should make for a quicker car, fuel economy is gonna suffer though but its cool its a track car laugh.gif
BonzaiCelica
i just looked up this gear ratio calculator. can anybody explain why the top speed is so high, shouldnt the celica have a higher top speed? I have the integra type r specs on the left and the 3sge beams redtop specs on the right, not sure if the tire size and redline are right for the 3sge redtop specs....

http://www.fatboyraceworks.com/gears/index...h&Compare=1
BonzaiCelica
anybody ^
azian_advanced
QUOTE (BonzaiCelica @ Mar 4, 2010 - 6:22 AM) *
i just looked up this gear ratio calculator. can anybody explain why the top speed is so high, shouldnt the celica have a higher top speed?



not sure what you're asking here exactly.. kindasad.gif

are you referring to the actual top speed of the car? or the speedo gauge limit?
Rusty
Im a bit baffled about the e56 being able go have a higher top speed: S54, E56 & E154
since according to that, they are they same in areas? typo somewhere?
the E56-04C should have a top speed 269 km/h (according to the above site)

Bonzai, I'm not sure sorry, the honda does have a higher rpm limiter??
BonzaiCelica
useless and incorrect information....
BonzaiCelica
I got the information from this link : http://www.rubydist.com/Family/Power.html

A second way to improve acceleration is to put a higher (numerically) ratio final drive in the vehicle. The torque available at the drive wheels is the engine torque multiplied by the transmission ratio multiplied by the final drive ratio.
Let's just use some hypothetical numbers to make the math easy. Let's say for an example that the engine has 200 lb-ft of torque all across the usable speed range (a gross oversimplification); let's have a final drive ratio of 3:1, a rolling radius of 1.25' (15" radius, 30" diameter tire); and let's say that the transmission ratios are 3:1 (1st), 2:1 (2nd), 1.5:1 (3rd), 1:1 (4th), and .75:1 (5th).
-So, the torque available at drive wheels in first gear is 200 (engine torque) x 3 (first gear ratio) x 3 (final drive ratio) = 1800 lb-ft. (The force at the point where the drive wheels contact the road is a total of 1800 lb-ft / 1.25 ft (rolling radius) = 1440 lb.) If we change the final drive ratio to 4:1, the first gear torque will be 200 x 3 (first gear ratio) x 4 (final drive ratio) = 2400 lb-ft.
This is a 33% increase in drive wheel torque, and it will result in dramatically improved acceleration. (It will also increase engine speed on the highway, resulting in lower fuel mileage, increased noise & engine wear, and a lowered top speed of the vehicle.) The final drive ratio has no effect on the horsepower of the vehicle, but it does affect the torque available to the drive wheels.

Stock S54 Gear Ratios:

1st : 3.285
2nd: 1.960
3rd: 1.322
4th: 1.028
5th: .820
Final Drive: 4.176

Using this equation, (engine torque) x (first gear ratio) x (final drive ratio) = # of pounds. Then # of pounds / rolling tire radius in feet = gives you # of wheel torque.

I am using my current 215/45R17 tire size = 2.06 ft in diameter.

Final Drive 4.176 (Stock S54) = 1012.21 pounds

Final Drive 4.562 (96-2000 Rav4 E250) = 1105.78 pounds

Final Drive 4.933 (96-2000 Rav4 E250F) = 1195.70 pounds


Increase in torque from 4.176 - 4.529 is 9.24%.
Increase in torque from 4.562 - 4.933 is 8.92%
Increase in torque from 4.176 - 4.933 is 18.14%


Which means a 4.933 final drive in your s54 transmission will gain 27 ft lb torque + 152 = 179 ft lb tq
azian_advanced
i think you have the general idea.. but just remember how this upgrade would affect the car's speed.





and to think the S54 shift points couldn't get any closer than it already is...
imo, not a worthy mod unless you live in a very populated city/town with a lot of traffic. you'll only SAVE fuel with this stop & go type of driving, but once you're on the freeway or highway, say goodbye to your mpg's.
BonzaiCelica
no I am very well aware of the shorter gears that come with a higher final drive. Better acceleration/torque but suffer in fuel economy. This set up is best for track. That's why removing stock fuel cut and moving it up to near 8,000 rpm is ideal with beams engine.

Ted95
QUOTE (BonzaiCelica @ Sep 7, 2011 - 1:43 AM) *
no I am very well aware of the shorter gears that come with a higher final drive. Better acceleration/torque but suffer in fuel economy. This set up is best for track. That's why removing stock fuel cut and moving it up to near 8,000 rpm is ideal with beams engine.



So would you say that the s54 is better for the quarter then e153? Because its short geared.. Jw, debating e153 for my 3s
mkernz22
QUOTE (Ted95 @ Apr 30, 2012 - 11:49 AM) *
QUOTE (BonzaiCelica @ Sep 7, 2011 - 1:43 AM) *
no I am very well aware of the shorter gears that come with a higher final drive. Better acceleration/torque but suffer in fuel economy. This set up is best for track. That's why removing stock fuel cut and moving it up to near 8,000 rpm is ideal with beams engine.



So would you say that the s54 is better for the quarter then e153? Because its short geared.. Jw, debating e153 for my 3s


The s54 is a lot better for the quarter because of the short gearing. It's more of a 0-120mph transmission whereas the e153 is more of a 40-160mph transmission.
BonzaiCelica
someone help me put this to rest... so does the c series transmission final drive transfer over to our s54 transmission. According to these calculations they do :



following videos for proof :





also just the origin of me discussing this topic : http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showto...78064&st=80

This is quoted by a 6gc member via email :


Very interesting I have learned something new about the ring and pinion compatability between the S and C series transmission. However dont get so cocky yet lol... read on and you'll see that there is nothing in that thread which shows why that trans seems to be geared lower/shorter then a stock 6th gen GT. If anything it would be geared longer... which is what u where saying right?

If not then then yes it is possible ur car is geared higher/longer then a stock gt but i doubt its that of the custom work and probably because that trans is NOT an S54 but an S51... if it is an S54 then its the 71/18 = 3.94444 version. But this would lead to better performance since it would take advantage of your higher redline as well as the increase in power and torque. It might also lead to better fuel economy.

"The 4.176 S54 has 17 teeth on the output shaft driven gear and 71 teeth on the ring gear."
These are the s54's that are in the gt 6th gens.

"The Corolla's C59 uses a 67 tooth ring gear with a 17 tooth drive gear for 3.941. This is the perfect match for the S54's 17 tooth drive gear."

"So this gives the S54 with 17 teeth these possible differential gear ratios: 3.941, 4.058, and 4.176"

smaller the number the higher the gear.

so if you had the c59 ring gear then your car would be geared higher.

"It might be possible to use the 19 tooth output shaft from the C150 in the S series transmission, but that compatibility has not been proven. You'd also have to press the gears off each output shaft, which can be time consuming or expensive. These are only possibilities, not actualities. Gear lash between the output shaft pinion gear and the ring gear will be affected if you change one without changing the other. The gear lash may be too great for your particular application, like if you switched to a 67 tooth ring gear when the pinion gear was designed for a 71 tooth, and such. Compatibility has not been proven with such ring gears in the S transmissions as gear lash must be considered and measured."

I find it unlikely, but not impossible someone would have gone through this trouble. If they did however it would still lead to a higher final drive as "C150 3.545 1.904 1.310 0.969 0.815 Diff: 3.526" Still higher then stock.

In fact looking at the numbers on that thread the s54 in the 6th gens has the lowest final drive of all of the options.

.... and then i saw ur post all the way down at the bottom.

"lets not forget the C160 and C60 final drive gear ratio. I have a 4.529 final drive gear ratio currently in my S54 Helical LSD transmission. Greater acceleration!! "

So your saying someone pressed the gears of of each output shaft and swapped out the output shaft and ring gear from a C160 or C60 trans into that transmission I sold you... Perhaps but ill believe it when i see pictures of the ring and pinion gear.
BonzaiCelica
ok ok this is the one. BUMP
BonzaiCelica
Which one of these pieces is the pinion? I know that the ring attaches to the differential which has a 71 tooth count.

BonzaiCelica
bump!!
rdyzz
sorry to review a dead thread, just try to get more out of the engine, so i figure if i can find out how to get the final drive to be a 4.5 it would be awesome.
the pinion should be the one i marked in red, the gears that mesh with the ring gear should be the on the top section, since above it is where it sits in the bearing.

BonzaiCelica
OEM s54 ring count is 71 teeth and pinion is 17 teeth. exactly what is posted in the picture above.

http://www.csgnetwork.com/rnggrpinioncalc.html

no you don't get more performance, just shorter gearing. and the s54 is already short. only reason to shorten the final drive is if you have a 8,000 rpm rev limit beams motor. stock come at 7,000rpm.

so if a c60 transmission from a 6 speed 2zz-ge celica has a 17 pinion count then we can for sure use the 77 tooth count ring from their transmissions.... i just don't know who has an open 7th gen 6speed transmission.
rdyzz
the output shaft gears look smaller than the s54's found this on newcelica.org



http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=283040
BonzaiCelica
Output shaft part numbers :

S54 transmission : 33302-12060 (Superstrut) 94-95 Japan spec

S54 Transmission : 33321-33030 Europe Spec

S54 transmission 33321‑33040

S55F transmission : 33321-33030 from ST215 Carina
mi645
im running e56 i like the trans but the gears r a bit tall compared to s54 the final drive is whats effecting it the most. im running stock e56 final drice, did u change ur final drive?
BonzaiCelica
Final Drive Ring Gear specs :

S55F transmission : 41221-21040 (AWD transmission, Unknown Ratio???)

S54 transmission : 41221-32100 (4.176 ratio)

S54 transmission : 41221-12260 (3.944?? ratio found on ST202-BLMVF Japan spec)

S54 Transmission : 41221-32090 (3.944 ratio for 3SFE) for Europe Spec 3SGE

E56/E56F/E57F/E58 transmissions : 41221-12290 (4.235 ratio found of 94-95 Celica w/ Superstrut in Europe), 96-98 ST215 3SFE Carina, 91-95 AE92 with 4AG-ZE
mkernz22
https://partsouq.com/en/catalog/toyota/part...&group=3305

https://partsouq.com/en/catalog/toyota/part...&group=3305

Those are the two diagrams. One for the st204 with a 5sfe/s54 and one for the st202 with a 3sge/s54
Some part numbers are different between the two, I just don't know the exact one for the gear ring thingy on the output shaft.
mkernz22
ooooo, more info.

http://www.newcelica.org/forums/archive/in...p/t-350134.html

C60 Transmission (6speed):
Final Drive: 4.529
Pinion Gear: 17 teeth
Ring Gear: 77 teeth

BonzaiCelica
QUOTE (mkernz22 @ Mar 26, 2014 - 10:08 PM) *
ooooo, more info.

http://www.newcelica.org/forums/archive/in...p/t-350134.html

C60 Transmission (6speed):
Final Drive: 4.529
Pinion Gear: 17 teeth
Ring Gear: 77 teeth


thats not new info. All you do is 77 divided by 17 = 4.529

however look at the 98-2001 ST215-CEMMK has the S55F transmission and the 96-98 ST215-CEMEK has the E57F transmission with 4.562 final drive. The 96-2001 ST215 chassis had the 3sfe and 2CT or 3CTE diesel engines. The S55F is an AWD transmission because the diagrams under TRANSFER ASSEMBLY & GASKET KIT. Does it come with a with a high final drive just like the E57F and the E250 AWD transmission with 4.933 found on the 96-00 Rav4 A
BonzaiCelica
blah, useless info
slavie
So were you ever able to rule out if C56 pinion would fit in the S5X gearbox? We know that the differentials are the same.

One could get the FSM for both and compare the shaft diameters for the two - they're listed in the FSM.

Swapping the gears is tedious but not too bad of a job once the gearbox is out and torn apart, just need a press mostly. I swapped the shorter 1-4 gears out of an S54 into my S51, but retained S51 5th gear and 3.9 final drive for highway cruising, and still have a disassembled 4.1 final drive bits. If somebody had a C-series box disassembled and wanted to compare, I'd be interested in trying to make that happen.

C60 though is unlikely though, as the shaft would be longer to accommodate the extra gear, and the cap would be in a different position. Unless you wanted to retain the C60 5-6 gear cover, but that's way too many variables...
BonzaiCelica
it wouldn't work look at the part numbers....
sir_smeghed
Does anyone know if the ring and pinion from the 4.933 Final Drive out of the E250F transmission has a suitable ring and pinion for the S54 box?

I would dearly love it if this is the case!



QUOTE (BonzaiCelica @ Sep 6, 2011 - 9:39 PM) *
I came up with these calculations can anybody back this up?? I got the information from this link : http://www.rubydist.com/Family/Power.html

this is what I read from the link, and how I came up with the calculations:

A second way to improve acceleration is to put a higher (numerically) ratio final drive in the vehicle. The torque available at the drive wheels is the engine torque multiplied by the transmission ratio multiplied by the final drive ratio.
Let's just use some hypothetical numbers to make the math easy. Let's say for an example that the engine has 200 lb-ft of torque all across the usable speed range (a gross oversimplification); let's have a final drive ratio of 3:1, a rolling radius of 1.25' (15" radius, 30" diameter tire); and let's say that the transmission ratios are 3:1 (1st), 2:1 (2nd), 1.5:1 (3rd), 1:1 (4th), and .75:1 (5th).
-So, the torque available at drive wheels in first gear is 200 (engine torque) x 3 (first gear ratio) x 3 (final drive ratio) = 1800 lb-ft. (The force at the point where the drive wheels contact the road is a total of 1800 lb-ft / 1.25 ft (rolling radius) = 1440 lb.) If we change the final drive ratio to 4:1, the first gear torque will be 200 x 3 (first gear ratio) x 4 (final drive ratio) = 2400 lb-ft.
This is a 33% increase in drive wheel torque, and it will result in dramatically improved acceleration. (It will also increase engine speed on the highway, resulting in lower fuel mileage, increased noise & engine wear, and a lowered top speed of the vehicle.) The final drive ratio has no effect on the horsepower of the vehicle, but it does affect the torque available to the drive wheels.

My Mathematics skills says:

Stock S54 Gear Ratios:

1st : 3.285
2nd: 1.960
3rd: 1.322
4th: 1.028
5th: .820
Final Drive: 4.176

Using this equation, (engine torque) x (first gear ratio) x (final drive ratio) = # of pounds. Then # of pounds / rolling tire radius in feet = gives you # of wheel torque.

I am using my current 215/45R17 tire size = 2.06 ft in diameter. So here is the difference in torque.

Final Drive 4.176 (Stock S54) = 1012.21 pounds

Final Drive 4.562 (96-2000 Rav4 E250) = 1105.78 pounds

Final Drive 4.933 (96-2000 Rav4 E250F) = 1195.70 pounds


Increase in torque from 4.176 - 4.529 is 9.24%.
Increase in torque from 4.562 - 4.933 is 8.92%
Increase in torque from 4.176 - 4.933 is 18.14%


Which means a 4.933 final drive in your s54 transmission will gain 27 ft lb torque + 152 = 179 ft lb tq

QUOTE (Edophus @ Aug 14, 2009 - 7:48 AM) *
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTLPZ1bVgHs

the beams sounds even better revving up past 8000rpm, its pretty interesting but in japan they raced the ss3 celica's in n1 endurance racing and you cant modify the engine for that, they used a 8400rpm rev limit, the heads will produce peak power at 8600 rpm with no modifications, but due to piston speed at that point its better to keep it to 8000rpm, its an engine with great potential, as soon as you fit an aftermarket ecu to them they come alive. If i'd kept mine any longer i'd have matched the increased rev limit to an e56 gearbox with 4.9 final drive which would have given the same top speed in each gear as the stock car, but nearly 20% more torque at the wheels, eat your heart out v6 owners muahahahaha tongue.gif


see even EDOPHUS thought the same thing i did 2 years before i even posted this.
sir_smeghed
PLEASE! Someone.....

I have an SW20 with an F20C engine (honda S2000) so it's got a 9000 rpm redline with Vtec kicking in at 6000 rpm. For this power to be usable on the track I will need something closer to a 4.9 final gear, I want to keep the S54 box as it is lighter, handles the power well and has nice gearing and I can't really afford to re-engineer the entire setup.

Does the ring gear from the E250F (4.933) transfer directly into the S54????

slavie
QUOTE (sir_smeghed @ Jun 9, 2017 - 5:30 AM) *
PLEASE! Someone.....

I have an SW20 with an F20C engine (honda S2000) so it's got a 9000 rpm redline with Vtec kicking in at 6000 rpm. For this power to be usable on the track I will need something closer to a 4.9 final gear, I want to keep the S54 box as it is lighter, handles the power well and has nice gearing and I can't really afford to re-engineer the entire setup.

Does the ring gear from the E250F (4.933) transfer directly into the S54????

You can't replace just the ring, you have to replace the pinion as well. The pinion is part of the output shaft, and replacing it involves pressing off and back on all the gears on the output shaft. In other words, you're pretty much rebuilding the gearbox. Or, maybe you can, but then you need to measure the gear backlash to make sure it'll work - I don't have the answer here.
Decent info here, but looks like Bonzai has already read that:
http://www.mr2.com/forums/threads/7966-In-...s-transmissions

With that said, it is highly unlikely that the ring and pinion from E box will go onto an S box. E-series differential is much beefier.
If I were you, I'd research into the newer C series boxes - at least C boxes had the same exact differential as S boxes. Ring will fit, but the output shaft is a big unknown.

I actually have a space S54 output shaft with all the gears already removed. If anybody has C-series shaft and want to exchange the measurements, I'm down for that.
Hope this helps.
sir_smeghed
That helps a lot, thanks.

Since I left my last post I found that Bonzai has put out a call for a group buy....

Getting a new C series box doesn't seem to be a very good option, a great idea but just soooooo expensive! I found one that had a damaged casing and was only good for parts and they still wanted $1300 for it.

frown.gif

Can't really afford to experiment at those prices.
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