Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Limited Slip Differential options for ST204s
6G Celicas Forums > 6th Generation Celica > Engine/Transmission/Maintenance
czwalga

Did some quick searching havent came up with much other than people speculating about the MR2 stuff without having actually done it.

So what are the options out there?
DEATH
The MRS LSD and several MKII MR2 LSDs have been successfully installed in cars owned by 6GC members
There are several threads detailing successful LSD installs on this site
czwalga
QUOTE (DEATH @ Oct 5, 2010 - 8:09 PM) *
The MRS LSD and several MKII MR2 LSDs have been successfully installed in cars owned by 6GC members
There are several threads detailing successful LSD installs on this site



Sounds good, i'll have to do more searching. The threads i've seen no one was really sure if it could be done.
Tom_SS2
what box is on an ST204? ifs its the same S54 as the 3S-GE/FE then there are a few, Cusco, TRD, KAAZ if you don't have an S54 box ignore all this
czwalga

Looks like they make a Kaaz differential as well. Not sure what would be better for rally the MR2 lsd is definatly less aggressive than the kaaz. I'm thinking the mr2's might be better, don't want to leave it open.
Culpable04
I have said it countless times,

any LSD made for MR-S will fit the s54 trans

so you want some proof ? well, I can't do this to my car because I don't have such trans, so hopefully this helps clear the issue

TRD list the LSD part number 41301-ST804 for ST182 / ST162 ( celica 4th and 5th gen ) equipped with 3sfe / 3sge

also, the same TRD website list the following Celica GTS ZZT23# 99.9- 2ZZ-GE、1ZZ-FE 41301-ST804

also SW20 (MR2) 89.10-99.10 3S-GE 41301-ST804
MR-S ZZW30 99.10- 1ZZ-FE 41301-ST804
AND ST202 93.10-98.4 3S-FE, 3S-GE 41301-ST804

BTW 4th, 5th and 6th gen celicas all have basically the same 5 speed transmission with mild updates ( longer / shorter gear / updated synchros ) also mr2 non turbo ( SW20 ) has the same trans but configured for RWD.

and just in case Click and see for yourself !


and no, the MR2 turbo LSD won't fit in a S54, you need a MR-S LSD or any aftermarket made for that car, or any of the cars listed above
czwalga
^ Thanks for the info.


The clutch type differentials will be much better for my application, just have to decide if I want to bite the bullet and spend the extra $700 over the mr-s diff.
Culpable04
actually no, a clutch type LSD is the worst type of LSD for a FWD trans, you want a hellical, not to mention that a clutch type LSD needs to be constantly rebuild, which means opening the trans every time, depending on the race type, some kits need to be rebuild after each race.

viscous would be the prefered but since you'll be beating on it quite a bit, hellical can handle the abuse a lot better than viscous, just make sure to install a trnas cooler as vLSD and hellical ( torsen ) generate heat.
Stambo
Just to make it clear, i can get any lsd made for the 2000-05 celica gts than.

Time to start saving....
czwalga
QUOTE (Culpable04 @ Oct 5, 2010 - 8:52 PM) *
actually no, a clutch type LSD is the worst type of LSD for a FWD trans, you want a hellical, not to mention that a clutch type LSD needs to be constantly rebuild, which means opening the trans every time, depending on the race type, some kits need to be rebuild after each race.

viscous would be the prefered but since you'll be beating on it quite a bit, hellical can handle the abuse a lot better than viscous, just make sure to install a trnas cooler as vLSD and hellical ( torsen ) generate heat.




Normally i'd agree, but wouldnt the helical pretty much act as an open diff over large bumps and the constant pressure changes offroad? This is for a rally car, should have mentioned.



In all of my performance cars i've always had the clutch type differential so its what i'm used to, but this is my first fwd, lower hp car... but i think for my application the clutch may still be the best.
Culpable04
you are correct about the hellical acting as open diff under certain conditions, but the issue with clutch type LSD in a FWD application is that the clutches are engaged every time the wheels are spining at different ratios, so when you are turning the wheels need to be at different ratios since the distance travel by the outer tire in relation to the curve will be greater than the distance travel by the inner tire, so under turning conditions you LSD will engage and try to bring both tires to the same speed making controlling the car really tough, this will lead you to slow down more than you would with a Hellical or vLSD.

Because of the reason you stated above is that I consider vLSD to be the best LSD for FWD cars, but their down fall is that if you overheat them the can lose the LSD properties and work as open from that point and on, they generate a lot of heat as it is, and for any type of race applications the heat will just be a lot higher and even with a trans cooler you are at risk of damaging it, that's why most performance cars with stock vLSD upgrade when they intend to race or track the car often, so hellical would be the next best choice.
DEATH
QUOTE (Culpable04 @ Oct 5, 2010 - 8:34 PM) *
and no, the MR2 turbo LSD won't fit in a S54, you need a MR-S LSD or any aftermarket made for that car, or any of the cars listed above

Notice I didn't say the MR2T LSD will fit in an S54 - I said it's been put into our 6GC's. Of course it requires the e153 Tranny or similar but I left that to OP to find out on his own the same way we all did - research.
czwalga
QUOTE (Culpable04 @ Oct 6, 2010 - 9:52 AM) *
you are correct about the hellical acting as open diff under certain conditions, but the issue with clutch type LSD in a FWD application is that the clutches are engaged every time the wheels are spining at different ratios, so when you are turning the wheels need to be at different ratios since the distance travel by the outer tire in relation to the curve will be greater than the distance travel by the inner tire, so under turning conditions you LSD will engage and try to bring both tires to the same speed making controlling the car really tough, this will lead you to slow down more than you would with a Hellical or vLSD.

Because of the reason you stated above is that I consider vLSD to be the best LSD for FWD cars, but their down fall is that if you overheat them the can lose the LSD properties and work as open from that point and on, they generate a lot of heat as it is, and for any type of race applications the heat will just be a lot higher and even with a trans cooler you are at risk of damaging it, that's why most performance cars with stock vLSD upgrade when they intend to race or track the car often, so hellical would be the next best choice.




What you say makes sense, but I still need to think about it. The turning ratio would be taken car of by the slip in the dirt/gravel. Ill have to talk to some FWD rally guys and get their opinions.
DEATH
Or you could just take the word of those of us who have been here for 5 years + and have done the research. Culp's accessment, as always, is spot on.
But do what you like - it's your car, your race. biggrin.gif
czwalga
QUOTE (DEATH @ Oct 6, 2010 - 10:26 AM) *
Or you could just take the word of those of us who have been here for 5 years + and have done the research. Culp's accessment, as always, is spot on.
But do what you like - it's your car, your race. biggrin.gif




No offense, but how many have actually rally'd completely different than pavement? From what I can find most rally FWD cars are running clutch style.
Culpable04
QUOTE (DEATH @ Oct 6, 2010 - 9:26 AM) *
Or you could just take the word of those of us who have been here for 5 years + and have done the research. Culp's accessment, as always, is spot on.
But do what you like - it's your car, your race. biggrin.gif


Thanks for the vote of confidence matt, but I think is just fair that he gets other's inputs on the matter, I've done extensive research on this topicm but that doesn't mean I know it all, specially when comes to aftermarket performance, new technology is developed every minute and maybe he finds out something none of us know to date.

not because someone has been a member for more than.... it means is right in everything he / she says, we can learn something from the newest of the members, we just have to be open minded and listen to everyone with the same criteria.

to the OP, I wish I had the funds / time to get involve is any motorsport discipline, as of right now I'm just researching to possible get my car to the track next season. I'm sure as you progress you'll have great amount of information pertaining to Rally, I look forward to see your sucess on the discipline.

czwalga
QUOTE (Culpable04 @ Oct 6, 2010 - 10:36 AM) *
QUOTE (DEATH @ Oct 6, 2010 - 9:26 AM) *
Or you could just take the word of those of us who have been here for 5 years + and have done the research. Culp's accessment, as always, is spot on.
But do what you like - it's your car, your race. biggrin.gif


Thanks for the vote of confidence matt, but I think is just fair that he gets other's inputs on the matter, I've done extensive research on this topicm but that doesn't mean I know it all, specially when comes to aftermarket performance, new technology is developed every minute and maybe he finds out something none of us know to date.

not because someone has been a member for more than.... it means is right in everything he / she says, we can learn something from the newest of the members, we just have to be open minded and listen to everyone with the same criteria.

to the OP, I wish I had the funds / time to get involve is any motorsport discipline, as of right now I'm just researching to possible get my car to the track next season. I'm sure as you progress you'll have great amount of information pertaining to Rally, I look forward to see your sucess on the discipline.




I have no doubts you're 100% correct on pavement. It's just what you guys are saying is the opposite of what i'm reading elsewhere for rally. Just trying to make the right decision. I've actually read a lot of guys run spools in FWD rally cars and deal with the understeer.

Definatly not saying you're wrong, but i just have to research it a little more for my application.
Culpable04
I respect that, and I have no first hand experience nor I have researched on Rally setups, so I'm sure your findings will be very valuable to the next guy trying to get started in Rally. Good luck with everything and update information as needed. We look forward to see your progress and success.

DEATH
I actually didn't mean for that post to come off sounding as bitchy as it did. I sometimes forget, inflection and sarcasm don't translate well over the internet.
I apologise to you both for the misunderstanding. kindasad.gif
czwalga
QUOTE (DEATH @ Oct 7, 2010 - 4:45 PM) *
I actually didn't mean for that post to come off sounding as bitchy as it did. I sometimes forget, inflection and sarcasm don't translate well over the internet.
I apologise to you both for the misunderstanding. kindasad.gif





It's cool. For what its worth clutch is the way to go. If you check out specialstage.com clutches are the consensus on what to go with even for low powered fwd cars.

I wish you guys were right, because the kaaz is about $500 more expensive. frown.gif
Culpable04
so in a FWD car the LSD selection should go as follows

for street - hellical / viscous
for rally - clutch type


and if you could provide some explanation as of why ? that way when the next guy comes there is some base reference for him.
czwalga
Welp from an engineering standpoint I'm not sure I can offer tooo much other than, when you rally you do have wheels off the ground a lot. When you're in the dirt/gravel even if the wheels not making contact it may be so lose that it still acts as an open. Also, the negative effects of the clutch diff is neutralized by the wheels almost always slipping.


Here's a quote from a guy with real world exp rallying with both.

"I've broken several axles, and been stranded every time with my Quaife.
On the advise of everyone here at SS, I just switched to a Kaaz prior to RallyWV.
(1G DSM fwd)

The Kaaz is a huge improvement over the Quaife, both in grip and predictibility.
At Sandblast (with exceedingly little grip) the Quaife would almost feel like a slipping clutch. The Quaife/torsen transfers a proportion of the grip available to the slipping wheel to the other wheel. In low grip conditions, there's a proportion of low torque available to be transferred to the other wheel.
This would happen to a lesser extent at other gravel events too, as boost would build, the wheels would slip a lot, so I would tend to keep the revs/boost down.
At RallyWV, I was able to hook-up much better, even with higher boost and rpm levels.

Good consistent grip on corner exit was confidence inspiring, and I was able to push more through the corners as a result. "

http://www.specialstage.com/forums/showthr...ght=quaife+kaaz




John Vanlandingham has a large post on it on the 2nd page of the posted link. He's very respected in the rally community, has a shop that is rally only cars.
qatar11
QUOTE (DEATH @ Oct 7, 2010 - 5:45 PM) *
I actually didn't mean for that post to come off sounding as bitchy as it did. I sometimes forget, inflection and sarcasm don't translate well over the internet.
I apologise to you both for the misunderstanding. kindasad.gif



Matt - you are such an ass smile.gif
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.