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HardHead93
I just got my MS3PRO EVO in for my conversion to standalone on my 4th gen 3sgte. I am planning on taking my time with this install to make sure all the wiring is correct and clean looking. To help with the install I grabbed a 5sfe ECU and mounting hardware out of a junkyard car to use as a template for mounting the Megasquirt into the car.









Got relays, distribution blocks, and different color wiring for a clean centralized install.




My goal is to wire the ECU up for as many features as possible and once I get good tune running, start enabling the features. I spent the last few days reading the instruction manual and it has me excited with how much it can do.
HardHead93
Just started the planning and laying out of the MS3PRO EVO. I spent time going through the ECU pinouts and mapping them to the proper connection on the Megasquirt. I printed out a picture of the stock ECU pinout and the Megsquirt pinouts and began assigning connection to each.


I also did a sketch of how I want to physically layout all the components and extra relays I will need.


I am planning to enable the following features on the Megasquirt outside the basic timing and ignition stuff:
- Boost Control
- AC Idle Up
- AC Cut under high load
- Intercooler Fan Control off Intake Temp
- Launch Control (2 step)
- Use the CEL light for warning of issues
- Possibly flat foot shifting (3 step)

I will not enable all these features right away but plan to wire them all up. This will let me enable them one at a time without having to pull the ECU out to do wiring each time. The MS3PRO EVO has the ability to do full 10 cylinder sequential ignition and injection. Since I only need 4 cylinder sequential, I have plenty of spare connections to add all the goodies and fun stuff. biggrin.gif
HardHead93
I have finished building the box where all my connections and relays will go. It will sit where the factory ECU is currently, behind the center console. I plan to mount the Megasquirt either behind this box or in the glove box and run all the wiring to this connection box.


This connection box will be set up to do the following:
- The big black box is a 122 pin connector for the factory harness. Most of the MS3PRO connections will go into there.
- There are 4 relays mounted on this box (fuel pump, AC cut, intercooler fan relay, and warning light).
- The distribution block is for any connections that need to leave the Megasquirt but not through the factory harness.

This will make for a clean install and keep all the factory wiring intact.
HardHead93
I have started to solder the ECU wiring to the 122 pin harness board.


I am very impressed with the quality of the wiring. Not only did they color code all the wires and provide a key in the instruction manual, every wire has it's function written on the side of it. smile.gif
sandusky1977
Watching this thread with excitement. Looking at doing diy pnp on my 2nd gen 3sgte, but considering all options at the moment. Keep us posted!
HardHead93
QUOTE (sandusky1977 @ Sep 13, 2017 - 8:48 AM) *
Watching this thread with excitement. Looking at doing diy pnp on my 2nd gen 3sgte, but considering all options at the moment. Keep us posted!


I am getting excited too. biggrin.gif The progress is a little slow because I am documenting everything and I want to make sure I get it right. When I put a DIYPNP on my 5sfte it was a pain having to constantly pull the ECU out because of small mistakes. I am trying not to do that on this install. Luckily the documentation for the MS3PRO EVO is excellent!
HardHead93
To compare the differences between the MS3PRO EVO and the DIYPNP, I took screen shots of TunerStudio with each one's tuner file open. Here is the DIYPNP:


Here is the MS3PRO EVO:


As you can see the MS3PRO TunerStudio set up has a lot more features enabled. Based on the tabs at the bottom of the screen the MS3PRO has over double the amount of features and monitoring capabilities. This will allow me to set up a lot of goodies and safety features.
slavie
Your dedication is fascinating and inspiring at the same time.

Makes me feel ashamed that I've had this Haltech ECU just sitting on my desk instead of in whipping my 3SGTE around... Keep pushing the inspiration, maybe the rest of us will run out of excuses.
pitcelica
Hi,

I did a MS3+MS3X install on a ST215 engine in my ST184 a few years ago. Here's the success story. I don't have the car anymore, but I can answer your questions if you have some.


http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.ph...t=3sgte#p275017

Have a good day!

Sam
HardHead93
QUOTE (pitcelica @ Sep 17, 2017 - 2:36 PM) *
Hi,

I did a MS3+MS3X install on a ST215 engine in my ST184 a few years ago. Here's the success story. I don't have the car anymore, but I can answer your questions if you have some.


http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.ph...t=3sgte#p275017

Have a good day!

Sam


Awesome! I will definitely be hitting you up with questions. Your MS forum post is what inspired me to do this ECU swap.
HardHead93
CELEBRATION!!!! laugh.gif I got the Celica to start and idle with the MS3PRO EVO. I wired everything up and spent the last few days hunting down issues. PitCelica, thanks for the help. Without your wiring diagram I would still be banging my head against the wall looking for problems. At first I thought it was my wiring, but after reviewing pitCelica's wiring diagram, I was good in that area. I knew it had to be something with one of the settings in TunerStudio. I am not used to so much control in the software. When I was using the DIYPNP it was simple and post changes were made to the hardware (circuit board) not the software. Once I figured out that my MAP sensor was not calibrated correctly and my injectors were firing out of order. . . VROOM! It started right up. Now I am dealing with the engine running lean. I think I need to do some adjustments to the injector settings (Voltage and Dead Time). Also, I still need to ensure my timing is not drifting. Still a lot to do but I am 1 step closer. Once I am close to done, I will post my TunerStudio settings as well and an ECU pinout wiring.
lagos
Congrats on getting it running!
Injector voltage and dead time are super critical to getting a consistent tune. I would make sure you nail those settings before doing any major tuning.
HardHead93
Here is a video of me starting the car with the Megasquirt. Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4Hv9gNOW2M...eature=youtu.be
HardHead93
Does anyone know how to check timing with a coil on plug setup? There is nowhere to hook up my timing light.
lagos
QUOTE (HardHead93 @ Sep 24, 2017 - 5:41 PM) *
Here is a video of me starting the car with the Megasquirt. Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4Hv9gNOW2M...eature=youtu.be



Is your afr gauge calibrated correctly with tuner studio? There is no way the car would idle at that afr.
HardHead93
QUOTE (lagos @ Sep 24, 2017 - 10:49 PM) *
QUOTE (HardHead93 @ Sep 24, 2017 - 5:41 PM) *
Here is a video of me starting the car with the Megasquirt. Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4Hv9gNOW2M...eature=youtu.be



Is your afr gauge calibrated correctly with tuner studio? There is no way the car would idle at that afr.


Yes it is calibrated. It reads that rich when the O2 sensor is heating up. It changes to a normal AFR value after about 30-45 seconds.
HardHead93
QUOTE (lagos @ Sep 24, 2017 - 10:49 PM) *
Is your afr gauge calibrated correctly with tuner studio? There is no way the car would idle at that afr.


Here is a better video without all the faults, errors, and AFRs reading correctly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bG65osD4_68...eature=youtu.be
Hafkai
QUOTE (HardHead93 @ Sep 25, 2017 - 2:33 AM) *
Does anyone know how to check timing with a coil on plug setup? There is nowhere to hook up my timing light.

This is how i do it





Works perfect smile.gif
HardHead93
I did some research and found the injector dead time listed for the stock injectors to be 0.804ms @ 13.2V. I played around with the settings and ended up setting the dead time to 0.825ms. That was where I got the best idle. The car idles smooth at around 750 rpm when completely warm. The AFR hovers right around 14.7. SWEET!
HardHead93
I got my ignition timing set. I had to make a 3 degree adjustment but besides that no problems. I am working on getting all the extra features enabled. I got my intercooler fan to turn on based on intake temperature and I am wiring in my extra sensors. Right now I am stuck because I cannot seem to get the warning light to turn on. I have run it through a relay to supply 12V to the pin but it will not turn on. I hear the relay click but besides that nothing.
HardHead93
I finished up the last of the wiring for the Megasquirt. I am glad I stayed organized. All those wires could have gotten out of hand.




I installed the MS3PRO in its final home today and fired the motor up. I still was not able to get the warning light (CEL) to work. I guess all it needs is a ground to work properly but that still did not work. I may have to just ground the pinout to the sensor or chassis ground to test that the light is even working. Also, I was getting frustrated because my intake temps were reading 130+ degrees when the car was fully warmed up at idle. Then I remembered, I have the IAC pulling air from the engine bay using a breather filter. Once I got on the road and was no longer idling the intake temps dropped quickly.

I took the car for a short ride. I kept it below 3K rpm and out of boost. I let the autotune feature in TunerStudio do its job and clean up the fuel table. It rides pretty smooth. I set up a pre-turbo temp sensor in my cold air intake so I can see how much the air is getting heated up by the turbo. It looks like that even with the air running through the intercooler, the temps are 10 degrees higher by the time it gets into the motor. Not too bad. wink.gif Also, I have the ECU controlling the intercooler fan based on a target intake temp.

I found a good tuner an hour away in El Paso, TX. Once I get a good enough road tune to drive it conservatively on the freeway. I will take it to him to finish off the tune.
HardHead93
QUOTE (Hafkai @ Sep 26, 2017 - 3:20 PM) *
QUOTE (HardHead93 @ Sep 25, 2017 - 2:33 AM) *
Does anyone know how to check timing with a coil on plug setup? There is nowhere to hook up my timing light.

This is how i do it





Works perfect smile.gif


Thanks I did something similar. Here is my setup for testing timing:

HardHead93
I have gotten my engine settings all dialed in and ready for the tuner. Below are the setting I am using. This should get anyone started with their Gen 4 3sgte with a Megasquirt. I am not providing timing or fuel maps because those may be different per engine. TunerStudio can set up a basic fuel map for you using the stock specs of the motor. The stock specs I used are:
Bore: 86mm (unless you have bored out your motor)
Horsepower: 256 hp @ 6200 rpm
Torque: 239 lb-ft @ 4400 rpm

As far as timing use this calculator to get you started.
http://www.useasydocs.com/theory/spktable.htm

PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE! Do not go out driving your car hard with an un-tuned fuel and timing map. You will damage your motor. The idea behind a base map is to get the car to start, allow you to tune your idle, and calibrate sensors. You may be able to do some light driving on the car but THAT IS IT! Take your car to a tuner as soon as you feel you have worked out all the electrical gremlins that may pop up.

Engine and Sequential Settings
Control Algorithm: Speed Density
Squirts per Engine Cycle: 1
Injector Staging: Simultaneous
Engine Stroke: Rotary: Four Stroke
No. Cylinders/Rotors: 4
Number of Injectors: 4
Engine Type: Even Fire
Engine Size (cc): 1998
Injector Size (540)
Main Fuel Outputs: Inj A,B..
Sequential On: Fully Sequential
Angle Specifies: End of squirt
Injector Trim: Off
Firing Order
A:1
B:2
C:3
D:4
For the firing order make sure you have wired the injectors and coils in a 1-3-4-2 order.

Ignition Options/Wheel Decoder
Spark Mode: Toothed wheel
Trigger Angle: (not needed)
Angle Between Main and Return (deg): (not needed)
Oddfire Angle: (not needed)
GM HEI/DIS: Off
Oddfire Phasing: (not needed)
Skip Pulses: 2
Ignition Input Capture: Rising Edge
Spark Output: Going High
Number of Coils: Coil on plug
Spark Hardware In Use: Spark
Cam Input (See tooltip): CMP
Tertiary Tach Input: (not needed)
Flip Polarity On Hi-Res Tach / Cam: (not needed)
Trigger wheel arrangement: Dual wheel with missing tooth
Trigger wheel (teeth): 36
Missing teeth (teeth): 2
Tooth #1 angle: 572.0
Main Wheel speed: Crank wheel
Second trigger active on: Rising Edge
HardHead93
QUOTE (HardHead93 @ Sep 28, 2017 - 2:04 PM) *
I did some research and found the injector dead time listed for the stock injectors to be 0.804ms @ 13.2V. I played around with the settings and ended up setting the dead time to 0.825ms. That was where I got the best idle. The car idles smooth at around 750 rpm when completely warm. The AFR hovers right around 14.7. SWEET!


So was having problems getting the AFRs to be consistent when I took the car on a short drive. After doing some research I found that I was using the wrong injector dead time. The reason why I started to question the injector dead time was because on my 5sfte build with 460cc RX7 injectors my dead time was 1.185ms. I figured there was no way that the dead time for my 540cc injectors could be that different. The injector dead time I was using was for low impedance injectors. For high impedance injectors the value is 1.1ms.
Smaay
why not use 1ZZ coils?
HardHead93
I spent the last few days tracking down issues to get this car ready for the tuner. The latest problem was as I was I was attempting to get a basic fuel map dialed in with AutoTune and I kept getting inconsistent AFRs. This was happening on the road and while idling. I just could not figure it out. Then I looked at the MAP gauge on TunerStudio and the MAP gauge on my A-pillar cluster and they were off by 5 in-Hg at idle. WTF! What could be causing that? After talking to a few people they basically told me that if there are any discrepancies between the software and your aftermarket gauges, 9 times out of 10 the software is wrong.

I did some looking around in the software and found that I had the wrong MAP sensor selected under calibrations. I was using a 2.5 bar MAP setting when the MS3PRO EVO is a 4 bar. I selected the correct MAP sensor calibration and like magic, the gauge and TunerStudio were within 0.1 in-Hg of each other.
HardHead93
I can't seem to get rid of this cam sensor fault. mad.gif I have tired to ground it in multiple locations and I am still getting a lot of noise on the cam signal. It is like it is picking up the crank signal as well as the cam signal. When I ground it with the crank sensor the car will at least rev to 5000 rpm before I lose sync. All other grounds start giving me problems at 2500 rpm. I think I will need to start messing with the noise filtering function in TunerStudio.
HardHead93
QUOTE (HardHead93 @ Nov 3, 2017 - 8:08 PM) *
I can't seem to get rid of this cam sensor fault. mad.gif I have tired to ground it in multiple locations and I am still getting a lot of noise on the cam signal. It is like it is picking up the crank signal as well as the cam signal. When I ground it with the crank sensor the car will at least rev to 5000 rpm before I lose sync. All other grounds start giving me problems at 2500 rpm. I think I will need to start messing with the noise filtering function in TunerStudio.


After messing with some of the noise filtering settings and taking the 10k resistor off the camshaft sensor wire, I was able to get a cleaner signal. The data logs are showing the single tooth on the cam hitting like it should but their is still a little noise. Tomorrow I will take the car for a drive and mess with the filtering settings to see if I can get a clean signal.
HardHead93
QUOTE (HardHead93 @ Nov 4, 2017 - 1:17 AM) *
QUOTE (HardHead93 @ Nov 3, 2017 - 8:08 PM) *
I can't seem to get rid of this cam sensor fault. mad.gif I have tired to ground it in multiple locations and I am still getting a lot of noise on the cam signal. It is like it is picking up the crank signal as well as the cam signal. When I ground it with the crank sensor the car will at least rev to 5000 rpm before I lose sync. All other grounds start giving me problems at 2500 rpm. I think I will need to start messing with the noise filtering function in TunerStudio.


After messing with some of the noise filtering settings and taking the 10k resistor off the camshaft sensor wire, I was able to get a cleaner signal. The data logs are showing the single tooth on the cam hitting like it should but their is still a little noise. Tomorrow I will take the car for a drive and mess with the filtering settings to see if I can get a clean signal.


So after almost taking the Megasquirt out back and putting a bullet in it, I figured out how to get a clean cam sensor signal. I ended up doing some digging and found that the VVTi 2jzgte guys were having the same problem with the MS3PRO. They were saying that the cam and crank circuits on the MS3PRO is wired differently than the MSX and Microsquirt. That meant if you had an older generation Megasquirt you would most likely not run into this problem. They were having the same symptoms, a clean cam signal until about 2000 RPM then it would start picking up crosstalk distortion from the crankshaft sensor and eventually the ECU would lose sync. How they fixed the problem was they wired the NE+ (crank +) and G1 (cam +) to the NE- (crank ground). They would then splice into the NE- and jump it over to the sensor ground. I gave that a shot and like magic the cam and crank signals were now clean with no cross talk at higher RPM. It makes sense because from what I have read the 2jz is based off the 3s design and the gen 4 ignition system is similar to the VVTi 2jz ignition system. You could almost say the 3s is the 2jz's older (but smaller) brother. Toyota is good at reusing their technology on different cars within the same time period. I can't believe how long I spent messing around with just 1 WIRE trying to get this thing to work.
HardHead93
Since I am planning on getting the car tuned soon, I thought what the hell, put bigger injectors on. This will future proof me for if I want to run a different turbo or convert to flex fuel. I know I am planning to do a SWEET CT16 upgrade some time next year. The stock injectors can handle that turbo upgrade fine but it puts it up at 90% duty cycle. After doing some research I found it it not good to consistently go over 80% because it over works the injectors and can lead them to fail sooner. I decided to go with 850cc injectors, I remember reading somewhere that the stock fuel rail with a Walbro 255 fuel pump is good for up to 800cc injectors. Since I plan to stay below 80% duty cycle, I never plan to max out those injectors.


Here are some shots of the new injectors side by side with the stock injectors.




It was a pain in the butt getting those things in. The first couple times I put them in they kept leaking at the seals. After dipping all the seals in fuel and wiping out the holes in the cylinder head they finally went in right and sealed properly. Another one of those quick swap jobs that wasn't so quick. mad.gif

I made the changes in the TunerStudio software and took the car out on the road. The car drove great!
slavie
So which 850CC injectors are these? What did they cost? I see you had to get them with plug adapters.
HardHead93
QUOTE (slavie @ Nov 8, 2017 - 1:42 PM) *
So which 850CC injectors are these? What did they cost? I see you had to get them with plug adapters.


They are Bosch EV14 850 fuel injectors. Attached are the test results I received with these injectors.
https://s6.postimg.org/llj9expn5/850cc_Injector_Specs140.jpg
They cost me $290 for all 4. They came with the adapter plugs and the proper O-rings for it to fit into the head and the fuel rail. You can buy these injectors on Amazon for about $40-50 a piece but they come with the wrong o-rings and no adapter plugs. The seller I went through on Ebay puts it all together for you. 1000cc injectors are going for around $400 for a whole set so the pricing seemed about right. Here is the link if you are interested.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Toyota-Celica-MR2-...6298609?vxp=mtr
These injectors only work for the gen 3 and gen 4 3sgte.
HardHead93
I have tracked down the last of the MS3PRO issues and now it is time to get it professionally tuned. I have found a good tuner in El Paso, TX. I was referred to him through the guys I track with. My appointment is set up for next Wednesday. I have a list of basic maintenance I want to get done before the appointment.
1. Change the spark plugs (NGK BkR7E gapped to 0.028")
2. Do an oil change
3. Make sure the battery is fully charged
4. Compression test
5. Check for boost leaks
6. Full tank of gas

I plan to trailer the car out there even though I have a basic of enough tune to drive it out there. I will post numbers after the tuning is done.
HardHead93
QUOTE (HardHead93 @ Nov 8, 2017 - 5:11 PM) *
QUOTE (slavie @ Nov 8, 2017 - 1:42 PM) *
So which 850CC injectors are these? What did they cost? I see you had to get them with plug adapters.


They are Bosch EV14 850 fuel injectors. Attached are the test results I received with these injectors.
https://s6.postimg.org/llj9expn5/850cc_Injector_Specs140.jpg
They cost me $290 for all 4. They came with the adapter plugs and the proper O-rings for it to fit into the head and the fuel rail. You can buy these injectors on Amazon for about $40-50 a piece but they come with the wrong o-rings and no adapter plugs. The seller I went through on Ebay puts it all together for you. 1000cc injectors are going for around $400 for a whole set so the pricing seemed about right. Here is the link if you are interested.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Toyota-Celica-MR2-...6298609?vxp=mtr
These injectors only work for the gen 3 and gen 4 3sgte.


Word of warning, I put these injectors in and they run great but they are loud. They make a ticking noise at idle but goes away when driving the car. kindasad.gif
Bitter
Put some foam sleeves around them? I know my 7G came with a foam sound isolator that wrapped around the injectors too. May cause heat issues if they run hot though.
slavie
QUOTE (HardHead93 @ Nov 15, 2017 - 9:36 AM) *
Word of warning, I put these injectors in and they run great but they are loud. They make a ticking noise at idle but goes away when driving the car. kindasad.gif

Just have to drive flat out from now on, what's the problem? If you ever get pulled over, present your very reasonable explanation, the officer will understand.
HardHead93
I finally got the car tuned with the MS3PRO EVO. I made 252 horsepower and 251 torque. That is up from 238 horsepower and 233 torque from my dyno session at the beginning of summer on the stock ECU. Not as much as I expected but we were having some problems with the wastegate. When I got it dyno'ed it back in the summer the wastegate was holding 16 psi with a duty cycle of 50% and 30% gain on the boost controller. Now I had to turn the boost controller up to 66% and 100% gain just to get it to 15 psi and it was having trouble holding that boost level. I think the wastegate may be starting to go bad. frown.gif Also, he was running into some problems with the AFRs. Come to find out TunerStudio was reading differently than the actual values on my boost gauge. At one point the software was reading 10.5 AFR while the boost gauge was reading 11.5 AFR. This was causing some problems with knock until we figured it out. In order to fix the problem, I built a custom inc file and grounded the gauge to the engine block and the battery. This allowed TunerStudio to read AFRs from the gauge's datalog cable the same as actuals.

Any hoo, 252 hp, if you take drive train loss of 15% into account that is 296 hp at the crank. No bad for a engine rated at 256 hp at the crank from the factory. Here is the newest dyno chart:


Strapping the car on the dyno:

[url="https://flic.kr/p/2166cPw"]

[url="https://flic.kr/p/2166dvw"]


Here is the dyno chart from beginning of summer:

[url="https://flic.kr/p/HeGdtF"]
[url="https://flic.kr/p/HeGdtF"]

You guys are probably wondering, what changed besides the ECU from the earlier dyno session? (Then -> Now)
1. A2A intercooler -> W2A intercooler
2. Engine bay intake -> Cold air intake
3. Stock Denso 550cc injectors -> Bosch 850cc Injectors (ethanol save)
That is it.

The cool thing is I have the engine set up for a flex fuel tune (bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump, and flex fuel sensor) and hopefully I will be able to get some numbers to you guys in a few weeks running e85. Is there anything else I need to change out to make sure the ethanol does not eat it up?

Other cool features/fixes set up with the ECU are the following:
1. Waaaaayyyyy smoother idle
2. AC idle up works now!
3. Car runs smoother and feels peppier even at low speeds/rpms
4. Launch control
5. Intercooler fan turns on based on IAT and coolant temps plus I can adjust settings easily
6. Check engine light for issues (oil temp, oil pressure, water temp, etc.)
7. No more governor (that one might get me in trouble kindasad.gif )

Again, like I said, not as much power as I expected. pitcelica hit 270 hp with a MS3 on a gen 4 3sgte but it looks like they ran into some of the same problems with boost dropping off. Bottom line, every motor is different and every tuner is different so I can't expect the exact same results but I am close. The tuner I used has done a lot of 3rd and 4th gen 3sgte's and is know for his reliability which is why I chose him. smile.gif

Let's see how long this wastegate lasts. ATS Racing sells a CT15 turbo wheel billet upgrade with the option to add on a new wastegate so I may be going that route in the near future.
BonzaiCelica
aweseome stuff. just swiftly read over your whole set up. when i have more time id like to read more on it. standalone ecu is a future goal of mine... especially removing governor and getting some fuel pressure, oil temp and volt meter gauges....
HardHead93
QUOTE (BonzaiCelica @ Dec 5, 2017 - 2:00 PM) *
aweseome stuff. just swiftly read over your whole set up. when i have more time id like to read more on it. standalone ecu is a future goal of mine... especially removing governor and getting some fuel pressure, oil temp and volt meter gauges....


Thanks! I plan to post a wiring diagram of how I connected the Megasquirt up. I am definitely very happy with the MS3PRO EVO. It was simple to wire up and the support from Diyautotune and TunerStudio support is excellent!. I love how the software is easy to learn and they are always making improvements to it. In no way am I saying I can do a good job of tuning my own car but TunerStudio makes it easy to get your car to start and test out the various features before bringing it to the tuner.
lagos
Can you post up a before and after of the ignition timing map?
Any reason why you had it tuned on a dyno jet versus something like a mustang?
HardHead93
QUOTE (lagos @ Dec 10, 2017 - 10:46 AM) *
Can you post up a before and after of the ignition timing map?
Any reason why you had it tuned on a dyno jet versus something like a mustang?


Lagos I will do even more than that. I was planning to do a comparison of different 3sgte tunes and hopefully spark a discussion. As to why I went with Dyno Jet, that is what the tuners are using around here. Both of the dyno numbers I posted are from 2 different dynos but both of them are Dyno Jets. I think one of the shops in El Paso, TX is switching to a different dyno so I may look into what they have once the install is done.

Through the course of my standalone ECU 5sfte and 3sgte adventures I have been lucky enough to get a hold of multiple tuning files for the 3sgte. After getting my Gen 4 3sgte tuned and seeing that the power numbers were different from another person's tuned Gen 4 3sgte, I wanted to know what was different. I will be comparing Ignition Timing tables and target AFRs. I will not be comparing fueling tables because depending on injectors and TunerStudio settings those tables can look vastly different. Let's take a look.

Here is the base tables that TunerStudio and the Megasquirt Ignition table generated for me:
Then Ignition Timing
Then AFR

Here is the final tables that my tuner built. This tune produced 252 hp and 251 lb-ft torque:
Now Ignition Timing
Now AFR

Now let's compare it to 2 other tune files. Here is one of the exact same engine but from a different tuner. This tune produced 290 hp and 274 lb-ft of torque.
pitcelica Ignition TIming
pitcelica AFR

What is different between these tunes? The base tune generated has the richest AFRs in boost (over 100 kPa). The timing is very conservative under 3000 rpms then it looks like the tool generates a very basic timing map above that. My final tune is a little bit more lean with AFRs and the timing is mapped out for how my motor performed on the dyno and on the street. Now comparing my final tune to the higher horsepower tune you see that his tuner went even leaner with AFRs and even more aggressive with the timing. While I am running 11.4 degrees at max boost, the other engine is running 13-16 degrees at max boost. Since he is running more timing than me his car will have more power when boosting when compared to mine. Also the higher horsepower 3sgte is using table switching to have a higher resolution timing table. Does the higher resolution make a difference? Not sure that depends on who you talk to.

You are probably seeing this and wondering, why did my tuner play it so save? I stayed and watched the tuner work the whole time during the tuning process and he was having problems with knock at peak boost so he had to add more fuel and take out timing to fix it. I think part of the problem was the software was reading different AFRs than actuals. I have since corrected that problem with a custom inc file. I bet if I get with the tuner again he may be able to put some timing back in and I might pick up some horsepower. The good thing about this situation is I know as of right now my tune is not on the edge of safe and a blown motor.

To continue this discussion, lets look at a tune for a Gen 2 3sgte.
Lagos Ignition Timing
Lagos AFR

Now the Gen 2 has a 8.5:1 compression compared to the Gen 4's 9.0:1. This means that the Gen 2 can run more timing on boost without seeing knock. The bad news is that the car will feel more sluggish out of boost. You can also see that based on the AFR table the Gen 2 has to run richer and has the riches AFR out of all the tunes. How does that compare to the baseman provided by DIYAUTOTUNE?
3sgte Basemap Ignition Timing
3sgte Basemap AFR

It looks like whoever tuned the Gen 2 3sgte took some safety precautions but also got a little aggressive in other areas. The timing was backed off a little bit down low but advanced more as boost comes on. It looks like the AFRs are richer than the basemap to compensate for that added timing. So again, it all depends on how the motor and the ECU were set up and performing during the tuning session.

What do I think? First of all, I am not a tuner or a professional engine builder but I do have an engineering background. I believe all these tune files each have their purpose and this further reinforces the need for getting your car professionally tuned. As you can see, 2 similar motors have 2 very different timing and fuel tables. What do you guys think?
HardHead93
I wasn't happy with how the Innovate SCG-1 Boost Controller was handling boost. It made the turbo feel extra laggy because it would run off of wastegate spring for a while before it would open up the solenoid. Plus boost would fall off really bad up top even with me adding to the gain setting. What I did like was the ability to change the boost right from the gauge on the pillar but their are other devices that will let me do that. Here is the picture of the boost controller gauge.
RW SCG-1

I decided to switch to letting the ECU handle boost control. First I tried using the Innovative solenoid but it made this loud clicking noise unless it was fully open or fully closed. I switched over to the solenoid that I bough from DIYAUTOTUNE a while back. Here they are side by side.
Boost Controller Comparison

I played around with the settings in TunerStudio a little bit and got the car to hold 13-14 psi all the way to 6500 rpm in 3rd and in 4th gear. Here are the settings I used.
Boost Control Settings 1
Boost Duty 1

I will try this out for a few weeks and see how it goes. If I am not happy with it I will switch to boost by gear since I have the vehicle speed sensor wired into the ECU. How that works is that the ECU take the gear ratios that you enter for you transmission and is able to figure out what gear you are in based off of RPM and speed. Then based on what you set up as your target boost level for that gear it will shoot for that. I think a lot of people use that setting if they are getting wheel spin in 1st and 2nd gear.
HardHead93
I started playing with the flex fuel settings in TunerStudio following some guidelines I read on various forums. The software has the ability to do flex fuel in one of 2 ways.
1. It can use the flex fuel sensor to add a set amount of timing and fuel based on ethanol percentage.
2. It can blend tables between a regular fuel/ignition/boost table and a e85 table based on ethanol percentage.

I chose the second because it gives more flexibility to make changes in parts of the table where AFR is too rich or too lean. Right now I am getting all the settings set up so that my next tuning session will not take that long. Here are the setting used for table blending.
Flex Settings

You have to be very careful when selecting these settings. Make sure if you plan to do table blending that the "Fuel Multiplier" is set to 100 on both low and high. Also the Timing addition needs to be set to 0 in both fields. You only used those values if you plan to do the option 1 of flex fuel tuning I talked about above. Changing those values will add fuel and timing on top of your table blending which could cause some problems (engine knock or flooded motor). Next is the table blending curve:
Flex Blending Curve

This tell the ECU how to blend your 2 curves. Most regular fuel has some level of ethanol in it. Whatever that is in your area (your flex fuel sensor will tell you), that is what you put as your first data point. For me we area at about 12% in our 91 octane fuel. The top of the curve will be 85% ethanol which is for a full tank of e85. The Blend % tells the ECU how much of the normal fuel and e85 fuel tables to use (0% is all regular fuel, 100% is full e85). I will warn you most pumps do not carry full e85. In my area it is more like e65, but you want your ECU to be ready if you do luck out on true e85. Next are my tables:
Flex Fuel Table 1
Flex Ignition Table 1
Flex Boost 1

On the left is the normal fuel table and the right is the e85. For my fuel table I added 46% across the whole board and let EGO control adjust from there (again I am just dialing in basic settings the tuner will sort out the rest). For timing I added 5 degrees across the board except in the idle areas of the map. For the boost it was a little more tricky. First I dialed in the boost settings for 14-15 psi on 91 octane. Then I ran the tank dry and filled it up with e85. I dialed in the boost settings at 16-17 psi for e85. I did this because you can run more boost and timing with e85 and you definitely feel it on the road. Now that I have some basic drivable settings with a well tuned 91 octane map, I will take it back to the tuner to get is really dialed in.
NgoFcukinWay
Are you looking to run E85 on this one?
HardHead93
QUOTE (NgoFcukinWay @ Mar 20, 2018 - 5:29 PM) *
Are you looking to run E85 on this one?


I already am and it has been great!
NgoFcukinWay
Oh sweet! How's your fuel tank holding up? I was informed that E85 eats away at the metal over time, so the inside of the tank would need to be coated. Buddy of mine did it with his MK3 Supra.
HardHead93
QUOTE (NgoFcukinWay @ Mar 28, 2018 - 4:27 PM) *
Oh sweet! How's your fuel tank holding up? I was informed that E85 eats away at the metal over time, so the inside of the tank would need to be coated. Buddy of mine did it with his MK3 Supra.


The tank is holding up fine. Our e85 is really only up to 65% ethanol so it is not as corrosive. Plus our regular 91 octane has 12% ethanol in it already. Also, I really only run e85 on the days I track my car. The power is amazing, I am running 2 more psi of boost and 5 more degrees of timing up top when using e85. Since I have a flex fuel tune I can switch back and forth as needed.
presure2
lots of cool stuff here man! boost by gear can be a godsend in our fwd setups, especially as you ramp up the power.
a shame the board isnt as active with all the facebook stuff...guys could actually learn some stuff in this thread!!
njccmd2002
lol, facebook guys actually putting a lot of misinformation, Its like an episode of punkd, or something. But i agree, all this info is great.
NgoFcukinWay
Sweet! Good to hear! I can't wait to go E85 on both cars. Down here, we get pretty lucky with our E85 content and most good stations will have about an average of E80 at their pumps.
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