6G Celicas Forums

I should have finished the design already but work has me swamped so far this week. I will post it up soon though. For those of you who are interested in the LED design I had this discussion with another ST205 owner and we came up with 3 reasons in favor of avoiding an LED tail light.

1. Despite the fact that nothing is more sexy than LEDs in a tail light, I have never seen an aftermarket LED tail light that didn't have a few blown LEDs after a period of usage (it even happens to our local traffic lights). When that happens if you're like me and you won't tolerate that "dead pixel" look in your lights you'll probably have to replace the entire lamp with new ones. Which brings me to reason 2.

2. The cost of manufacturing LED tail lights in comparison to the standard bulb type is significantly greater. They will cost me several thousand dollars more to produce and then if the general feeling is that the retail price is too high I would be stuck with them on my hands. So to be honest it is unlikely that I will do the lights with LEDs at least
for my own selfish reason of not wanting to get stuck with them on my hands for a long period of time.

3. I have to check with the ST202 owners to confirm that this affects them too but in the ST205 celica there is a light that illuminates on the dashboard whenever a tail light bulb goes out. I have yet to confirm this but I am almost completely certain that LEDs in the tail lights will trigger this warning light. I'm also quite certain that circuitry in the tail lamp can easily fix this problem but again at an elevated cost.

Most people want "plug and play" solutions from the aftermarket and what I prefer is to provide a "plug and play" modern looking tail lamp that preserves the image of the celica while enhancing its natural beauty. The OEM projector / crystal headlamps do a perfect job of this. So do the auto art crystal side repeaters and indicators. I'm not going to ruin that image by making the car look like a honda civic from behind or even a porsche or aston martin. I know many will not appreciate my reasoning but I don't need many people I just need 30 people to accept the price and eventual design to give me the go ahead to manufacture them.

Thinking about doing a run of aftermarket tails for the ST202/205 since the only thing that looks out of place with the projectors and crystal indicators/signals is the tail lights. Trying to get some feedback as to price acceptance. well show 2 possible options soon. lights will cost USD $250. If 30 people show interest and are accept the price we will make the tail lights.

Get them. I have them on my ST205 with the auto art crystal side repeaters. These are a must have if you have the projector headlights. They look absolutely beautiful together.

well isn't this interesting I was just about to start a thread about exactly what you guys are talking about here

I need some info from you don't know if you saw my pm. it's really important If you don't mind giving out your contact number drop me a pm with your contact number.

apparrently there was some drama going in the thread so i'll digress just to advise that you should search to get a feel for the value of the item you want to sell before posting up the price since the price you paid at one time may not be anywhere close to the value that you can sell for at the time you decide to sell.
I've seen these lights range between $600 and $900 USD with 700 and 800 dollars as the most popular price for the set. therefore if you are selling them with an HID kit you should state whether both low and hi beams are being supplied which can bump the cost of the package to as much as $1400USD without the price being anything more than average. If the HID's are on the low beam only as they should be then selling the package for $1000 is quite fair with $900 being the lowest price you should consider selling for without shipping included. If you sell these for any less you will be robbing yourself. Don't let anyone fool you. I have been looking for these cheaply for some time now and they are quite easy to come by but cheap is out of the question.

If the right side ac vent and the radio bezel are in good condition pm me a price for those I don't know if you have the shifter bezel if you do pm me a price for all 3 parts. been trying to get these in Right hand drive config for a while now

You say I don't know how to use an SAFC yet soon after you talk about pulling fuel using an SAFC which is technically impossible. Sigh. they say ignorance is bliss. If you plan on installing a 3" exhaust with your current "magical guesswork" tuning technique on that 3sgte you are going to melt those pistons. but then again i have no idea what i'm talking about

well for the same reason anyone else wouldn't recommend it!
What's the point of doing tuning if the stock ECU remains in complete control?
Effectively all you can do with an SAFC is HOPE for the best power output from the fuel delivery and ignition timing the OE ECU thinks is appropriate given the new "corrected" mass air flow (or pressure) signal from the SAFC.
How do you compensate for changes in volumetric efficiency such as is the case with installing aftermarket camshafts? And even if the ECU does manage to generally maintain your targeted air fuel ratios how do you optimise timing for best power and fuel consumption without the onset of knock? Not to mention the ECUs that do not read an intake air temp signal.
The SAFC succeeded an era of rising rate fuel pressure regulator tuning which was like going from taking a shot in the dark to being able to make an educated guess. Guesswork is still not a characteristic I find admirable in engine tuning.

easy there fellas no need to get rowdy. you didn't kill a human being you broke a motor. I'm one of the most cautious tuners you may ever meet and I broke a FULLY built nissan SR20 motor about 5 minutes into the first tuning session using an SAFC with the wideband attached to the car and every imaginable other guage necessary.
Keep in mind that engines are mechanical and thus prone to failure. In my instance it was a rusted custom water line that developed a crack and dumped all of the engine's coolant on the highway while at WOT 15psi of boost. It doesn't really take much to break an engine.
As far as the SAFC is concerned I don't really recommend it. It has been succeeded by much better fairly cheap tuning options now but If you already have one (depending on which one) It is still quite possible to use it for safe WOT air fuel ratios at boost levels well above factory settings. If you're serious about performance though the SAFC is a joke compared to what can be achieved by a proper setup that can cater to both fuel and ignition timing adjustments for safe reliable performance and excellent drivability.

interested in the shifter bezel radio bezel and the right air vent bezel shoot me a pm with the price needed urgently.

not sure how similar the setup is between your car and the 205 but i'm assuming you can't scan for fault codes. The pump circut should run through a fuse check the fuses in car and under the hood. One may be blown. If that reveals nothing try to borrow another ECU if you can get one from an RC185. If that works it should save you hours of ugly trouble shooting. Other than that you may have to pull the car battery and run through the harness with a multimeter continuity tester to try to work out what's going on.

Asking this for a friend who has a brand new spec clutch kit for an RS200 Altezza and he wants to know if it can work on the gen 3 3SGTE in the ST205 celica! Does anybody know?

I believe that with the installation of better limited slip differentials you can have remarkably improved cornering out of the celica. It will take some tuning to get right but it will not cost millions. Torque sensing LSD's have been one of the things that were a bid deal back in their day but have lost their edge to better designs from companies like cusco. It is one of the things I plan to look into to improve all out cornering performance.

If you don't want to install an LSD upgrade you should at least consider the next step I would take which would be to save up a couple grand and install a good coilover system from a reputable company. I know Ksport and such are popular but I can't say for certain they would work anywhere near as well as a set from companies such as DMS. I will most likely be installing a set of fully adjustable DMS coilovers and starting with a neutral setting and adjusting the high and low speed bump and rebound adjustment till it's just right. I think it's worth mentioning that they are known for remarkably smooth ride quality and road bump absorption while being very firm in cornering due to their use of progressive rate springs with perfectly matched dampers. Really great stuff you may want to read up on but a tad expensive.

Ok granted the GTR was developed with a budget you and I can only dream of but think of this. I'm sure you might have observed that whenever you drive your ST205 and i mean really DRIVE IT... that you can feel the heat of the exhaust around the floor area where it passes. Simply dropping the exhaust and installing some adhesive floor and tunnel shield from thermo tec would resolve that problem and no matter how hard you run the car you won't have to feel that heat build up. Result? One step forward into the 21st century standard for car comfort. There are so many similar little tweaks like this that you can do to the car that by the time you're finished it is really at a different level.

I've gotten really good results by just adding normal heat wadding under the floor carpet and along the exhaust/driveshaft tunnel in my other cars. It really makes a difference in road noise levels. The additional weight added will not affect handling because of how low it is in the car and apart from that it probably wont add up to more than about 5 or so lbs anyway. Adding 5 lbs of weight to the floor of a car cannot possibly affect a car's performance.

I would also like to explore the possibility of using the water to air setup and convert it to refridgerant based intelligent cooling system with a programmable electronic controller so that the intercooler can be as intelligent as the ECU in controlling intake air temperature by being able to allow heated on boost air to interface with a heatsink that is well below ambient air temperature so that excessive on boost throttle use will probably never result in detonation. These things seem far fetched but I swear they're more possible than you would at first think. short of that there already exists an intelligent intercooler water spray system that sprays a mist of water at the intercooler which is incredibly effective at keeping intake air temperatures at fixed values no matter how hard you drive. It is so well engineered that it actually learns from your driving habits and starts to predict when to start spraying the intercooler even before you get on the gas pedal.
The same company also offers a cheap boost control solution that controls boost by engine load instead of throttle position so that you get more precise throttle control of the car since for example you won't get the same boost level at 4000 RPM part throttle as you would get at 4000 RPM wide open throttle.
I could go on about gadgets like this eternally. They all add up to a daily driver experience that is more poised to hang with anything the manufacturers of newer sports cars have brought to the table.

See this is what I was talking about in the beginning. You believe and accept that. I simply refuse to. Not in the year 2010. I'd believe that in 1997 but not today. Road noise can be controlled in a lightened car by several newer light weight solutions now. Plus the nissan GTR R35 disprooves the theory that lighter means better handling entirely.
Maybe the answer to the problem is in a slightly more technical solution. I'm sure there exists a suitable alternative that allows you to have the best of both worlds.
I think we just need to look harder for solutions to our problems with the car. Some may be costly too costly even but I'm sure that generally we can build a much better overall package now by doing the right modifications than we could have back when the car was still in production.

ahhhhhh *deep sigh of relief* finally somebody understands what i'm saying. Well like I said I don't have all the answers. All I can promise to do is share my experience as I attempt to figure out exactly the same thought process that you're now having.
I also drive a lightly tuned Toyota trueno 1999 model with a 4AGE 20 valve blacktop engine and I can assure you that even though it makes less peak power it feels so much more refined in its power delivery especially on the highway that I can't help but wish that I could make the ST205 a multiple of the performance factor that exists in the 4AGE 20 valve form.
You can also feel the positive effects the lightness of the trueno has on actual performance in braking and cornering maneuvers.
The trueno feels like a more "intelligent" car whenever you put it through its paces on the roads. The power delivery of the ST205 seems more fumbled and the handling more clumsy.
I intend to improve both power and handling as well as aesthetics and ergonomics of the 205 but I have no plans of giving up drivability in any form to achieve these goals. Furthermore I'm actually going to attempt to make it even more street worthy than it was when It came from the showroom.

I feel confident that I can pull it off since I pretty much did the same thing with the Trueno transforming it with very subtle modifications into a refined well balanced machine still producing the factory 165 horse power but despite that it was able to hang around my friend's 390AWHP mitu evolution so aggressively on the highway recently that he passed his exit running me down and he actually passed like 5 other exits before he was able to catch up. You would think that with that much horse power in an evo (and TRUST ME he's probably the best driver I know) it would be silly to think that catching up to a relatively stock toyota trueno with a blacktop 20V 4AGE engine would be much of a task.

Rest assured however that it is not that straightforward in the world of performance. I intend to apply all of the things i've learned so far into making the ST205 faster in the ways that really matter. Dyno figures hardly tell much of the real story unless you're in a straight line drag race. And lets face it not a single GT four owner anywhere in the world spends more than about 5% of their time in their celicas on the drag strip.

I'm starting to get the feeling that you are replying either without fully reading all that was mentioned before or without a full understanding of what is being said. Let's take your second point first...
If you read my first post carefully I'm simply suggesting that there is a gap in technology between the ST205 and any 2010 performance car as one would expect. One can no longer expect toyota to bridge this gap as their attentions are focused in a different direction. Therefore I thought in an attempt to bring the ST205 to an overall equivalent or higher level than what exists today, It was worth considering some of the things that newer cars have the the ST205 does not.
so to answer your question directly...
NO! I do NOT!

what i wish i could expect is that instead of jumping to another brand to achieve higher overall refinement and performance synonymous with sports cars of 2010, that die hard toyota fans would examine what the factors are that create this gap and attempt to address them with solutions that are available in 2010 that were not available in 1999 and before. I'm hoping that the approach taken when upgrading and modifying any aspect of the car would involve a thought process that would result in a finished product or result that is on par with what is expected in 2010 and not 1999.

To respond to your first statement while your celica may have one of the better interiors on the road in can be made to look more in touch with the new era of sports cars. But I will agree with you that it is simply my opinion and entirely subjective. But then again so is everything else that I posted.

for emphasis...


The build you have just finished on your brother's motor may be astonishingly good. But ask yourself this question. Do you think you would get the owner of an evo X or 2010 STI hatch facinated enough with what you did to the car to consider selling their car to buy your brother's own? If not why not? What have you had to give up to achieve your power objective in terms of comfort and drivability? Furthermore what was missing from the picture to begin with that is now commonplace in 2010.
Well answer those questions and you only begin to scratch the surface of what i'm talking about here.
I don't care how fast you can make the ST205. If that was the focal point of this discussion then we would be talking about tubbing out the car installing a roll cage doing a balls out horse power dyno queen build and putting racing slicks on the thing to make it go hard. Sadly even after doing all that someone may just fork out the cash for a factory sports car that will still hand you your breakfast.
So my school of thought continues to be valid. Does the ST205 owner in the year 2010 accept that his car is limited to the technology of a fogotten decade? Does she/he accept that creature comforts and better street drivability is not important as long as the necessary things have been done to ensure that the car goes fast enough to stay in front of the competition? well we already know what my position is on this. If you think that my opinion is invalid I can respect and appriciate that seriously. However I would prefer to keep this thread headed in the direction that I intended it to. Start your own thread if you must or thrash it out with me in pm.

I replied to your post just for the heck of it. It is still a simple fact that since toyota isn't going to produce anything on the low end platform that can keep up with the competition, those who wish to stay competitive in terms of performance as well as class with an ST205 have their work cut out for them.

why waste time replying if you're happy with your ST205 as is? This thread is not for contented owners.

Feel free to email toyota about the rumoured performance sports cars they are supposedly developing. Don't just listen to hearsay. If you'd like I can forward any of you the emails from toyota where they clearly state that the only things they had in the pipeline were the (now released) Lexus IS-F and Lexus LF-A.

Getting that off my chest It should now be easy to understand why I am hell bent on finding an easily repeatable way to utilize cam phasing (VVT / VVTi /Dual VVTi) with the 3SGTE platform.
It should also be easy to understand even if not accept why I will not settle for a car that idles at 1400 RPM because of the cams necessary to make 600 + horse power
It should be understandable as well that off boost fuel economy expectations should be as good as or better than factory spec regardless of on boost peak horse power figures.
I'm also one who frowns upon noisy exhausts and fuel dumping knock control measures that result in momentary clouds of black smoke.
I am also hell bent on retaining the factory air cleaner system as long as the flow bench clears it for use.
In short the differences in the before and after photos of the engine bay after adding over 400 more horses to the wheels should be an exercise for a CSI team.

The ST205 gen3 MAP sensored 3SGTE is a decent engine. It puts out ~ 220 to 230 all wheel (dynojet) horse power and about 215 pound force feet of torque in stock trim. Its fuel consumption is respectable especially off boost and generally it will take you from point A to point B as a very reliable fast cruiser without any complaints. If that makes you happy then read no further.

This is a thread for those of you who are more inclined to believe that we are not alone in the universe; for the type of tuner who does not accept that the earth is round or the sky is blue just because we've been told that all our lives so we continue to believe it without questioning it and without any proof.

Ever since I was born My family has always driven toyotas. I have an undying love for toyotas even though they are currently outclassed in the performance arena by almost every other manufacturer. I have actually written emails to toyota headquarters concerning their intentions for future performance cars and a possibility of the return of the Supra. Their response was basically that toyota is no longer intent on high performance road car production but more interested in eco friendly transport alternatives. In short toyota has gone green.

The obvious question now follows... So... what about die hard toyota performance fans? How do we keep up with newer offerings from other manufacturers who continue to research and develop high performance cars while toyota's performance era struggles to keep up with newer technology? Is it possible to compete with the mitsubishi evo X or subaru's new STI impreza hatch with the likes of the celica ST205?


Well I can assure you that the limiting factor in attempting to find an answer to that question will ultimately depend on what you are inclined to accept or believe. I certainly do not have the answers and while I can assure you that the 3SGTE is outclassed by most of today's factory engines I firmly believe that with a slight adjustment in expectations from this toyota performance platform many of the current beliefs about this widely discredited motor can be proven otherwise.

I've started beginning to observe what sets other manufacturers apart in 2010. What are the targets they set for full production performance cars, some of their goals and expectations. The result has been a readjustment in my own goals and expectations for my ST205 as unrealistic and impossible as they may seem.

2010/11 OEM factory equipped performance cars currently differ from the ST205 celica in several ways including the following:

1) better in cabin road noise control
2) newer/better standard driver interactive electronics
3) navigation
4) multi speaker high quality surround sound
5) electronic trip meter derived stats for things like fuel consumption and expected remaining fuel supply mileage
6) engine condition statistical data such as external ambient air temp, fuel tank meter readout (ltrs/gals)
7) service interval notifications
8) oil level, coolant level, windshield wash bottle level dashboard display indicators
9) better suspension and handling
10 better fuel economy
11) better idle characteristics
12) shorter braking distances
13) significantly higher levels of overall reliability
14) smoother ride quality with less vibration from engine and drive train.
15) better tires
16) better visibility through xenon discharge technology (sometimes steerable and self leveling)
17) higher horse power outputs
18) smoother power delivery usually through newer cam phasing technologies
19) significantly better aesthetics
20) ergonomically superior

Not hardly an exhaustive list but you begin to get the picture. Toyota performance cars are being left behind in more ways than just a quartermile time or highway run.
It should be easy enough to fix the quartermile time or highway runs by dialing up the boost by whatever the currently employed approach is but It will take some doing to fix the actual gap that exists in a broader sense.

If it doesn't bother you then it doesn't bother you but I am never happy when I realize that a luxury SUV such as the Audi Q7 will simply walk away from the ST205 on the highway without so much as a grunt from its engine or even a puff of smoke. All the while having the windows rolled up and possibly not even realizing that I was trying my darndest to keep up with it. In all fairness to the ST205 it is in fact electronically speed limited but I'm just making a general observation.
In the year 1997 when the car was manufactured all it would have taken was a gentle hint of throttle opening at that speed to disappear from the horizon of any approaching average luxury SUV that was available then.

I have been immersed in this school of thought even before the year 2010 as I have always been fascinated by the irony that OEM ECU tuning is usually light years ahead of any aftermarket ECU's programmable options. I would have thought that as good as the OEM is since they must work within a production budget the aftermarket tuner should always be best since the only consideration is performance.

When Nissan launched the GTR R35 It finally dawned on me what was missing. There is very little and usually no focus on street performance tuning from the aftermarket. The aftermarket is saturated with full race spec tuner hardware and the other side of the coin involves very expensive "ricerware" that is more about shiny polished chrome finishes and bright colored silicone hoses etc than it is about performance. Nissan was able to beat all 3 previous versions of the skyline in every corner on a circuit test in japan using a stock R35 even though the R32 R33 and R34 skylines were full tuner vehicles ranging between 400 and 600 horse power. The R35 GTR is also probably heavier than the production machinery that built it. So one can't help but ask how on earth did they get it to be that fast?

Well while you may be thinking that the average ST205 owner does not have access to the nurburgring race circut for testing and also that Nissan's research and development budget for the R35 is wildly beyond the dreams of most lotto winners, there are a few subtle factors that affect the private tuner with equal impact as the most wealthy car manufacturer. Nissan does not have a single red or blue greddy or hks colorful silicone hose under the hood of that car. They did not spend even 10 seconds considering what tone or pitch the blow off valve should make when it dumps air into the atmosphere. Their goals were easily outlined for them by setting an overall goal of achieving a certain lap time on the nurburgring. Anything that affected that goal negatively had to go. And at the same time several other things that were previously frowned upon were utilized such as the weight of the car because at the end of the day the test results were there to prove that the goal was achieved.

If this same approach is used when considering modifications to be done to the ST205 It should be only a matter of time before people start wondering if toyota has reintroduced a limited production run of a higher powered faster celica ST205 in an attempt to show that they are still heavyweights in the performance arena.

I can't convince myself to tare apart the engine for anything less than a 600AWHP configuration on race fuel. The experience i've had with the T28 is that at 427whp on the dyno (front wheel drive only) that turbo was completely out of breath. It spools really well but not enough flow for my goals when the race map is loaded. I'd be happy with it everyday on the street but not for track days.
The annoying thing about me is if you gave me an F1 fighter jet I would fuss over how possible it is to make it as daily driveable as possible.
My on boost goal for VVTi is about exactly as you summed it up. On boost I would actually be happy with even less than an additional 2500 rpm added to the torque curve. I would settle for as little as 1000 rpm more torque bandwidth using VVTi. AS LONG AS i have the flexibility to load a well tuned pump gas street map with smooth low rpm idle characteristics, be able to get better off boost fuel economy, and generally better street manners in any way whatsoever then it's worth the stress. What is your opinion of the new series of borg warner extended tip fast spooling turbos. Honestly if the S259 EMS powered is working on has a favourable compressor map and specs I was honestly thinking about trying that one. Anyway as advised I should probably start a new thread since this is not the discussion Alan was attempting to spark by starting his thread.

Yes it seems a daunting task. Good read.
I am just as interested in VVTi for its capability to allow the car to idle smoother with a more agressive camshaft as well as the widening of the torque band. I know the benifit seems marginal but on the other hand I also know it's still worth the hassle. (listed in order of importance to me)
(1) I don't like having to use a higher idle RPM with agressive cams.
(2)I also dislike the lopey idle that comes with them and
(3)of course i'm looking for some additional width to the torque curve.
Concerning the water to air intercooler, I have already tested its limits and come to the conclusion that it would have to be replaced by an air to air exchanger or be fully upgraded to handle both the air flow and heat load that my intended configuration is going involve. Because I am the type that will go to extremes in order to maintain a factory lookng engine bay most likely the water to air configuration will be retained but with a custom intercooler, upgrade front exchanger and pump. So even if I'm non VVTi and retain the 3rd gen 3sgte there's still a possibility that I may have to customise the mounting points for the intercooler. Might as well try to get what I want while going through the hassle.

waw talk about getting carried away with excitement. I guess I have to keep in mind this is a global website lol.
All of the ST202's I've seen with the 3SGE came with the beams so I just assumed that's what he was referring to. I've never seen a celica that wasn't RHD from japan plus i'm obsessed with VVTI + boost I just kinda jumped the gun there sorry haha. Would it be at all possible if we can steer this thread in the direction of the 4th gen rev 1 intake cam only VVT beams engine compared to the ST205 3rd gen 3sgte?