6G Celicas Forums

I just wanted to add, the information here is to give an over-view of components and information as more so for basic guidlines.

Tuning is specific to the configuration and requirements of the user / vehicle application and or maybe with in laws or race regulations if applicable.

Please understand that I probably won't be on here that often. I merely had a bit of free time.
Came on and decided, cool I'll contribute. As I have time I'll up date / edit. Often times theories and
parameters change with the application and system requirements or desired goals.

Enjoy the week!

Regards,
Mick -

Sunny,

Thanks for the friendly words!
Cheers and have a great week!

Best regards,
Mick-

( Sorry mate, I had a type-o in there. ) The last bit was rather to simply higher a firm to build / fabricate you something.

Sounds like a plan, well good luck and I hope it turns out as you invision it.

Enjoy the weekend~

Mick -

Al or Al94ST not sure if your first name is Al, but ah thanks for the two cents.
I would't say that I was totally out of line, I can understand your view / perspective. Most people were kind of vague at very best.
They want the Unicorn answer, or end point. Yet many don't think of the variables. There is a start, steps to a middle, thus more steps to a final result.
If one wanted to give a definative answer, one might want to inquire before saying X, Y, Z.

I've no hard feelings.

I decided rather then reply to each individual question here, it is far easier for me to help some of you out. Please understand I do this for a living, and contribute information
merely at my own free will and ( technically it is my day off. ) Some of what I have seen on here is disturbing, and scary. Not to insult, but I feel bad seeing people who really
spend probably a lot of hard earned cash and well un-knowingly pop engines, most of you should get 40,000 to 80,000 miles on a average tuned engine. And about 80 to 300 life
hours on a motorsport race engine.

There are a number of parameters when one discusses the right approach for forced induction. We have to consider the pre-exist vehicle architecture and potential
of the ancilary hardware and mechanical to establish basic parameters. The approach on a factory forced induction application is very different then a vehicle that was
not equiped from the factory with a forced-induction system.


Fuel System : Typically the in-bound or feed line is one AN size larger then the return line. Even when using the proper injector and fuel pump sizing, a fuel system will not flow adequately unless the hoses that deliver the fuel to the fuel rail are of sufficient size and are routed properly. ( aprox ) most of you will use a - 5 ~to~ -8 AN hose / line. Of course
this all depends on the specific set up and ( individual user requirements. ) Depending on how you select your lines you could support 300 ~ 500 + hp. Few here are rocking 700hp
machines.

Typically there is no need to replace the fuel delivery hoses unless the engine is heavily modified. It is never a good idea route fuel hoses through the interior of a car. Put bluntly, this is a dumb & dangerous thing to do.

If applicable or possible, use a delivery tube to make the connection from the pump discharge to the filter in the front of the car. The lines should be rated to withstand at least double the maximum pressure of the EFI system. This is especially true when discussing forced induction applications as fuel pressures in such systems can be much higher then NA or factory applications.

For example a engine with moderate boost, with expected fuel pressures at around 65-70 psi range. This will require a line with at least 140-psi rating (most AN hoses exceed this by a large margin). Double Check, Triple Check that the margin exceeds by at least double and consider how much pressure the lines can withstand at extreme tempretures!

When deciding on routing of the fuel lines, it is absolutly important that they are protected from road hazards, contact with objects and the exhaust system. The fuel line should NEVER be routed near battery cables. Use clamps to secure AN hose every 8~12 inches, or 24 inches if a rigid tube is used ( Technically speaking I prefer bracing more then 24 inches. )

Often overlooked in EFI installations, the fuel filter must have the capacity, filtering efficiency and burst strength to withstand the pressures of an EFI system. It must be able to flow the amount of fuel that matches the maximum fuel pump output. The filter is always located after the fuel pump, however it does not matter if it is positioned in the front or rear of the vehicle (we prefer to put it toward the front for easy serviceability).

high flow fuel filters for high-powered engines are a must, often these have design in mind and are of a high volume, replaceable filter element.
It is also important that a pre-filter be mounted to the fuel pick up in the tank. Such filters are designed with high high volume in mind and create very little / mild pressure drop.
The use of a pre-filter ensures long fuel pump life and can eliminate low flow conditions caused by debris entering the pump inlet and thus damage.

The fuel rail. The fuel rail should be consistent with, or larger than, the hose size. Additional capacity of a large-diameter fuel rail helps to ocillate / dampen the pulsations created by the fuel injectors and ensures even fuel delivery under all conditions. ( Remember to always have injectors secured! )

Boost controller : There are a number of different boost controllers out there on the market. Manual controllers aren't bad, because they tend to keep individuals away from
the temptation of ( increasing boost ) to a possibly risky level. All of the units I have used have been reliable. There are a number of different units, electronic or pneumatic you
can select. Most high end engine-management systems can actually control both boost / waste-gates.

Waste Gate Internal : These are typically common on most factory OEM units, you can identify such units as they are integrated into the turbo-charger-housing itself.
Usually smaller turbochargers low to medium pressure applications perfectly fine.

External Waste-Gates : External Waste Gates are physically not mounted to the turbo-charger itself. Furthermore these are mounted typically to a cast or tubular constructed
turbo-manifold. Depending on the application and mostly on high pressure systems I tend to prefer the external units. You don't ever want to question the units ability to control
pressure.

Waste Gate Size : This is a generic chart, if I recollect the first chart is what turbosmart recommends.
However, in reality there are a number of aspects specific to individual systems. These are helpful for
those who might have issues selecting a properly sized waste-gate.

big turbo/low boost = bigger wastegate

big turbo/high boost = smaller wastegate

small turbo/low boost = bigger wastegate

small turbo/high boost = smaller wastegate


One must consider , the flow of exhaust and the effect on how power is achieved. So, one could technically use a different chart.

big turbo/small engine/small power = small wastegate

big turbo/big engine/ small power = medium wastegate

big turbo/small engine/big power = big wastegate

small turbo/small engine/small power = small wastegate

small turbo/big engine/any power level = big wastegate " The concept behind this is that the small-esq turbine will attempt to overspin from excess exhaus gas volumes.

( Both charts are generalized slightly )


Atomespheric BOV : Location of blow off valves are very important. The most ideal location is as close as possible to the throttle. ( Especially on units that are non adjustable. )
In some applications, or if installed or placed or adjusted incorrectly you can encounter, poor throttle response, rich or lean Air fuel mixtures. In some application / situations a surge.
If venting to atomespher then I prefer at least a tunable / adjustable BOV. Still as close as possible to the throttle.

Re-Circulating System : Most highend modern machines, use such systems. Again location is still as close as possible to the throttle, and thus re-circulated / re-introduced into the
stream. Both boost is not wasted.

Regards,
Mick -

( I'll address intercoolers and so on later ) Sorry for the lag in editorial of my own posting.

There are too many variables for me to say for sure what it is, I dislike guessing. I'd also prefer not sending you on wild goose-chases if you get my drift.
There are a number of things, that come to mind from reading post X, Y or Z here.

1. Sounds as thou you are suffering from some restriction, it could possibly be a small vaccume leak or that the waste-gate is lose or the spring rate etc -

2. Depends on the specifications of a turbo-charger, T3/T4's come in a number of specifications. It would help to clearify A/R trim and inducer / exducer sizes are
housing inlet and outlet.

3. I don't know the complete layout of your exhaust system from the turbo-manifold back. If you are using the factory catalitic converter this could contribute to
partial restriction. However, most use a 2.5 ~ 2.8 all the way back, some use a tride and true 3 inch. A high flow catalist and 2.5 to 2.8 inch full length should is an aprox average.
( If you have a manual boost controller, set it back to a lowest setting ) when you free up the exhaust system ie reduce back pressure, you will flow more thus create more boost, thus this is why the waste gate is very important in controlling. A lot of guys have a restrictive system, and so they increase the boost achieve the desired boost level thru the power band, this is due partly because pressures increase as rpm increases.

I'll write a general article in the forced induction section look for it, should be a new post.

Regards,
Mick -

Hi there,
Well there are a number of ways to achieve control the desired parameters. Of course engine-management is by no means
created equal. It is important to understand how the factory OEM architecture works, the limits, and furthermore understand
how the interfacing functions work on engine-management X, Y, Z.

It's about 8:41AM, almost time for my coffee. So I will give you a general over-view.
( Scatch that, my significant other has decided to be a doll and make me some coffee )

So if I understand correctly you have a 5SFE with a CT20B equipped or did you swap a 3SGTE into
a 1998 Celica GT. No? If you have equipped a 3SGTE in your ST204, and you equipped the correct harness
and ancilary systems. You simply could install a Apex-i Power FC. Which is infact a standalone.

However, noticing that you are from Seattle. I'll default to that you probably have a 5SFE and ST204, and
that you aren't rocking something from the Japanese market.

E-Management Ultimate and E-Manage does not make a ( base map or harness ) kit for the 5SFE.
Or not so I have seen. The e-management itself is configured to a custom / universal set up. This also requires a custom suppliment
harness that must be fabricated. You can select specific features you want to use, but the corresponding sensors must be in place or added.

How e-Management / ultimate works? The simplifed answer is as fallows : 1. The factory original ECU is placed in closed loop, 2. The E-manage basically is telling the ECU that
everything is operating as normal. However the E-Management acts as the middle man communicating to the ECU. 3. The e-Manage itself basically communicates with the
ancilary hardware, and acts as a stand-alone of sorts. Spark and Fuel can be controlled. It has imputs, much like a standalone.

Where as the Apex-i Neo or AFC controllers are really merely fuel correction devices allow people with basic bolt on items to correct
fuel trims, however these are different in that they actually alter / skew the signal the ECU reads. The points of control are far less.

Things you need to be aware of, the e-management or for that matter any piggy back is limited to operate with-in the limits of the
factory architecture. Some management systems aren't as sophisticated and therefore in some aspects more ideal and others are far
more complex then the E-management itself.

You really need to decide if simply not going with a complete tride and true stand-alone is not better then going with a piggy back.
If you were in California, I would physically show you what I mean and so on.

Beyond this you have a few methods to approach engine-management. Some less sophisticated but it gets the job done with the
understood limits and draw backs. The other end of the spectrum are top level engine-management systems, which basically in terms
of sophistication start at like 10,000 USD for the ECU itself, and climb from there.

Isolated Architecture : This is where fuel & ignition functions are controlled by seporate control units. <- This might be an alternative cost
effective direction.

Combined Architecture : This is where a multitude of parameters are controlled, such as variable valve timing, fuel, spark, a number of customizable
mapping all in a single unit. These also require typically customized harness and ancilary sensor / hardware.

Then the line divdes and in somecases blures further.

Regards,
Mick -

PS, sometimes I won't notice someone has messaged me, so PM's are welcomed.

315cc injectors ( assuming ) that they are balenced and in good order. Are good for about 252hp. I like to side on caution and say that with age of
most fuel systems, pumps, thus you probably can support only about 214hp. You don't want to be operating at maximum injector cycle duties and
should have a buffer zone.

350cc is good for about 280hp. However, I ponder if the injector drivers are capable of supporting such large injectors. I expect very poor control.

With that said you need to understand how other aspects work, the factory 7AFE injectors aren't big by any means, they are something like 180cc.

Beyond that, The Apex-i SAFC or NEO etc, such systems are really only good for fuel corrections, not comparable to standalone management.

What these systems do is alter / modife the signal that is being sent to the ( factory engine-management. ) Where as something like a true piggy back like a e-manage or e-manage ultimate actually acts as a standalone.

It keeps the factory original ECU in a closed loop state, basically the ECU thinks everything is operating as normal. And the E-management and corrisponding sensors and so on are communicating. However, you still have to work within the factory limitations of the factory architecture.

I don't know how extensive you have built your 7AFE or 7AFTE as you call it. But, 10 psi is a tad ambitious with a Apex SAFC II. Sounds like you are using the old ( dump a lot of fuel and pray method. = ) You are better off with a smaller high response turbo and well balenced induction system using maybe 4.5~6psi tops. A well sorted low pressure, high response
system is superior to lots of lag and huge amounts of power.

One of the aspects of my job is that I not only design the hardware but the software as well for engine-management systems and ancilary devices.
Beyond this and amongest other terribly borning stuff, I have pretty much used every major competitive engine-management system on the market.

Good luck,
Mick

PS, It all depends on how extensive you want to get and how well refined.
Remember the fuel is only one aspect, induction systems are a multitude of parameters and beyond that
we haven't discussed the ignition system. ^_^

PS,

Most of the K & N filters can be cleaned via oil and air, so besure that you clean these.
Otherwise they degrade and don't filter or simply clog up.

Avoid the foam filters, they can flow very well. However the filtration aspects aren't
great and they typically come aparts in bits like an old ( fish tank filter. )

You have basically three major filter groups, Paper, Foam, and Cotton.
Normally speaking, for race applications we will test a specific filter materials for flow and filtration.
Then each are tested in the specific air box. Typically I prefer Cotton, a little more expensive.

Good luck.
Mick -

I can tell you that it depends, on the specific engine I am building and that engines intended usage.
It also depends on the engine-builder, if you got everything balenced, what you did, how tight or loose you went
on engine spec's / tolorences and clearences.

Almost everything motorsport is measured to last at peak operations for X amount of hours.
You can also calculate it out to aprox milage or kilometers.

Road cars generally speaking :

1. It is very important you allow the engine to warm up correctly on a flat surface, non of this drive way tilted kilt sort of stuff.
Remember, Coolent tempreture is not the same as your oil tempreture. You need to ensure that oil is circulating thru the system
and allow the car to run thru the normal warm up. Once the engine is warmed up, do a quick inspection, look around check for any
leaks and fluid check. Inspect and confirm that the idle holds after small basic throttle imputs, which is not to say you should crack
the throttle.

You can also use a small ultra light weight oil, as like a pre-lube so that you aren't running the cylinders totally dry or should of
hopefully had some assembly lubricant. <- Not required after the first start.

2. For 500 ~ 1,500 you will want smooth engine operation, do not exceed 75% of your maximum engine-speed,

3. From 500 ~ 1,500 until you achieve about 2,500-3,500 miles you want to work the power-band but avoid maximum engine-speeds avoid using 85% of
your maximum ( usable powerband ) until about 4,000rpm. Remember operating the engine-beyond the usable power-band is pointless, you don't go faster
and strain the engine.

Around 2,500 ~ 3,000 I recommend you change the oil. Remember most race machinary is basically drained of oil and depending, the fluids as well.
Regardless of test, practice, and or race.

Beyond this, comes down to how well and how many provsions were taken into consideration prior and if you can operate with in the limits of your build.
Most exceed the vehicles limits, and this will reduce engine-life-span. A lot of the time people are simply un aware and when in the midst flat out you don't
really grasp the engine is beyond it's limit. It's not hard achieve high G forces etc

Good luck,
hope all goes as you'd
planned it to be.
Mick -

There are a number of potential possibilities, also once chronic damage has taken place often times a primary component can become out of spec and irreversibly corrected.
ie you might simply have to replace the hubs completly.

One user on here, nearly hit the nail square on. He mentioned wheel spacers. Only one aspect to consider. 3/4ths the vehicles I see rolling around are waiting diasters.
Suspension geometry is very important. Excessive negative camber will wear hubs like crazy, spacers alter geometry as well and thus must be corrected. Beyond that if
you have the wrong wheel offsets you'll find a slew of problems as well thus compounding other issues you might already have with ride height, caster, camber, amongest
other things.

Simply said, you need to correct your suspension geometry and or have exceeded the factory geometry.
I can't help you beyond this, not unless I know more about the specific set up you have.

PS,
It's often easier if people reply via my in box.
Mick -

I don't recommend wasting money on a short ram, the factory unit was fairly well balenced. Unless you've a rather complete set up then there is little point.
You would recieve better performance from a factory filter replacement. Even if you add a short ram, exhaust system, part X, Y, Z it's all merely wasted money.
You need to sort your management out first, if you can't control the parameters then you simply are compromised.

Your air box should be something like 157mm by 310mm.

If you make the measurements then I'll recommend the best possible solutions. The filtration to flow ratio is important.

Good luck -
Mick

A number of things play into exhuast design, not simply a diameter. Design efficiency as a complete system is very important, material selection, beyond this there are mechanical and ancilary attributes that contribute to the values that equate the ultimate formula. Again, what is desirible for race car is not pragmatic for road car. The area in which engine speeds
are operated at play a fact.

You have a 1995 ST, so I'll assume you have a 7AFE and not swapped anything. I can tell you that very few firms have dynos deticated behind systems
for the 7AFE. How response and power is created is very important. Remember the factory management is fairly crude, and is not capable of making major adjustments.

I would need more information about what you are trying to achieve to give you a professional opinion. A number of factors and a dollar to power ratio.
Is this merely a replacement, or is this for something special or you have specific areas of interest that need fine tailoring?

Regards,
Mick

1. I'll assume the mellon-shooter / 5inch cannon is the muffler you are using and not a 5inch diameter from the header back?

2. One thing about exhaust systems is that it works as a complete package, also the camshafts and a number of other parameters and aspects
need to be taken into consideration. Back pressure is very important, and what is desirible for a forced induction is not pragmatic for NA applications.

3. I would prefer you use a high flow cat, at least you would be more with in the letter of the law. Most circuits, speedways, and so on have sound regulations
and most professional series require all entires to be catalytic converter of some type. With all of that said a professionally made system with high flow cyatalist
will produce the same power as a unit without small loss maybe. You in the seat of your pants would't notice it.

4. All in All, here is what I recommend if you do not wish to use a catalist. Simply where the catalist is located, use a pipe that runs back to the muffler with the associated bends for clearences and diameter of the inlet of the mufflers diameter.

Good luck,
Mick -

Hokuten,

The 5SFE depending on vehicle and year have some differences. However, you should be selecting parts designed specific to the 5SFE and not the 3SGTE.
This is a common mistake a lot of individuals make, and on a lot of different applications. Often this makes for an odd power-band usually more noise, and
reduced performance and poor response. If you are having a difficult time finding parts, save your money and comission a higher a firm to bespoke a exhaust
system that meets your present and potential future needs.

Good luck,
Mick -

DZracer987,

Techhically yes, you can equip the 3SGE with forced induction. It depends on what market we are talking about, is your vehicle a ST202, ST203, ST204, as well
which variant / generation of 3SGE you have. The 3SGE has a much higher compression ratio, then that of the 3SGTE. Technically speaking you could run a low pressure
forced indcution set up. However there are both mechanical limits and as well engine-management aspects that need to be kept in mind and in check.

It is important to understand more about what you are attempting to achieve. You want to have response, and a flexable powerband, having some sloppy power creator
might seem ideal, but it also has adverse consequences. Often times huge and undesirible compromise.

Why is it that you feel you need a turbo? The 3SGE is very capable. Last but not least, having a reliable power-plant is more important then un-reliable and mildly faster.
Remember what is pragmatic for a race car is not always pragmatic for a road car.

Regards,
Mick