6G Celicas Forums

Gen 2 3SGE block doesnt have oilsquirters, gen 3+ blocks do.

If you use a gen 2 3SGE block 'just because' then there is something wrong with your head.

*sigh*

So much misinformation in this thread.

Reasons why it's a ****ty idea:

1. It will bolt straight up to your gearbox, but the oilpan and head etc is optimised for having the engine upright, this may cause problems.

2. The VVTI pulleys stick further out from the block than on a single VVTI engine, making it too long to fit; the cam cover will bang into your suspension tower. Unless you cut the cam cover off and some of the pulley.

3. Exhaust side VVTI adds economy only, no increase in power. The 10hp difference to a single VVTI engine is made from revised head design, titanium valves on the inlet side, and higher compression. (11.5:1 instead of 11:1)

4. The single VVTI engine outputs all of the signals to your dash etc in a conventional way. The dual VVTI engine has an 'MMX' wire, which carries the information from your engine to the dash. This is decoded by the electronics in the dash, and displayed on the various signals. As such it is near impossible to get your gauges working without the Altezza dash unit.

5. The intake manifold faces the wrong way (Left instead of right, or vice versa) And it will also bang into your firewall, as it sticks away from the engine rather than towards it.

6. The Altezza runs a returnless fuel line, and the ECU varies the fuel pressure by increasing or decreasing the speed of the fuel pump.
So impossible to get working with standard fuel pump, or 'regular' replacement.
Single VVTI engine has a fuel return line, so any fuel pump is fine (so long as you dont run out of flow)

7. An altezza 3SGE is quite desirable to quite a few people, and fetches a fair price.
A single VVTI Caldina GT engine is IDENTICAL to a single VVTI redtop engine, but sells for a fraction of the price. Not only this, but it bolts straight up with NONE of the above problems!

8. Someone has mounted a dual VVTI engine in an MR2, but required the redtop intake manifold, exhaust, sump, and a few other bits. They never got it running though, thanks to wiring problems.

In conclusion... It's technically possible, but absolutely NOT worth the effort, for >10hp gain over a single VVTI engine!

Altezza engine + the full catalogue of TRD bits for it + an ECU = 270hp.

It's a pity to see so much negativity in this thread, even if the OP is a little naive.

I've got a beams 3S in my car with bolt on mods, and have another one that I'm building up over time, and I regret NOTHING.

I'd gladly go down this route again.

I just cant wait to get my other engine finished and in the car.

As above, any help appreciated!

PM me. 8)

The redtop was available in the:
Celica
MR2.

Which came with 200hp(manual) and 190hp(auto).

The 'greytop' as some call it (A redtop 3sge with a grey rocker cover, and unpainted intake manifold) was available in the:
GT Caldina
Rav 4 G limited
Both JDM only, as far as I am aware.
These were only available as the 190hp version, as there wasnt a manual transmission option for these cars.

The blacktop engine was only ever available in the RS200 Altezza, and only in RWD format.
210hp (manual) and 200hp (auto)


Have a quick look here, for a full list of 'S' series engines available. (And all the others!)

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Pit/997...s.html#S-series

It doesnt fit.
The VVTI wheel on the exhaust side will hit the side of your car.

Your best bet would be a redtop 3sge (with the grey rocker cover) from a GT Caldina, this seems to be the most common beams 3sge that Ive seen, as I see heaps of GT caldinas around these days.

As this is a 'fwd' engine, and will fit right in.

However, dont expect it to be cheap!

Cheaper than a blacktop however.

No, they are TOMS extractors, the standard exhaust manifold has a big steel lump at the bottom, that the pipes join into. (rather than the pipes being spliced together)

I will be using the standard exhaust for now, but I plan to get a straight through exhaust made at some stage. (Which will be fricken noisy, as the MR2 exhaust only runs for a metre or so! Which will most probably be 2 1/4" pipe.

I think that any bigger would be overkill for a 2 litre NA.

Perhaps 2 1/2" at the max.

Ive been doing a 'mock up' build over the last few days, to make sure I have all of the nuts/bolts/etc. etc. etc, so I am good to go when my bearings arrive. 8)

Hence the lack of crank. :?



I also put a few coats of clear over the rocker cover and intake manifold, to satisfy my magpie syndrome (lust for shiny things!) and for a few extra points with the ladies. :lol:

2.5" or 2.25" will be best....

I know of somone making 270hp at the wheels with a blacktop 3sge, and I dont think that even he runs a 3 inch pipe. 2.75" or 2.5" IIRC!

If you are turboing it, then you wouldnt want high compression anyway.... Most turbo cars hang around the 8:1 or 9:1 mark.

Running high compression limits the amount of boost that you can run.

I dont suppose you have any dyno plots online?

I would be very interested in seeing the curves etc.

First of all, if you take a look over there <---------

You will notice that I'm not American.

New Zealand is the land of Japanese hand me downs, probably 90% of the cars on our roads are jap imports.
That we get really cheap, being so close to Japan.

The 178hp engine is the gen 3 3sge, and is the amount of power that the car makes at the FLYWHEEL.

approx. 15% of this power is lost through the transmission, as it takes power to turn the gears, run the pumps, alternator, etc.

So when I say that I hope for 180 wheel hp, this would be about 210hp at the flywheel.

Yes it is a lot of work for not a huge amount of power, but half of the point of this project is to increase my knowledge, and have a fun project to do.
As well as the fact that the redtop has a broader spread of power thanks to the VVTI, so even if it made only 178hp, it would still be notably faster than a gen 3 engine.

I wouldnt be surprised to see more than 180whp, but Im trying not to be too optimistic, as a lot of people tend to be, and end up very dissapointed when they get to the dyno.

Higher compression ratio gives you better economy, and also more power!

However the downside is that the higher the compression ratio, the higher the octane of gas that you need to use.

The highest compression ratio that you would really want to run on high octane pump gas (98 octane) would be 11:1 or maybe 11.5:1, 12:1 if you are brave.

You would have to run a 13:1 compression ratio engine on race gas, or it would destroy itself very very quickly.

Yeah, thats a nice looking exhaust manifold!

I'd be keen, but Ive already got a set of what are alledgedly TOMS extractors. I cant confirm that they are, but they definitely arent the factory extractors!

One thing that I DONT have... is the factory intake piping.

Ive only got up until the throttle body, and thats it.

I need to mount my AFM somewhere. I see on Outsiders engine, that he has an HKS adapter for his AFM. Does anyone know where I can get one of these? It looks like exactly what I need!

Wow, thats awesome!

I didnt even know that there was ANY aftermarket for the redtop.

Do you know of any other aftermarket parts that are available?

No I dont. If you want, I can ask a mod to delete this thread for you?

Thanks.
You're guys enthusiasm is encouraging and contagious, it makes me want to work harder, and get it done faster.

If anyone wants to see any pics of anything specifically, just let me know.



Yeah my car has been a lot of hard work so far, I repainted it myself last summer. It was off the road for about 5 months, because I:
A: made sure to fix every dent, stone chip etc.
B: Pulled the car completely to bits to paint... almost everywher
C: Never knew anything about panel beating/painting etc. before I started.

My engine rebuild is a bit the same, I'm taking it slow, going to be triple checking everything, making sure everything is meticulously clean, etc. etc.
Its a bit of a daunting project though, biggest thing that Ive done before this is.... Well I dont even know. Just heaps of little jobs, nothing this major before! But it will be an exciting learning experience.



Yeah, it should be heaps of fun.
Ive spent quite a bit so far, and at times Ive wondered why I didnt just get a turbo, but hopefully the results will be worth it.
At times I think... "Hell yeah! NA rules!" and at other times I think "Doh! should have got a turbo motor. "
But its too late to change my mind now, its been too long in the making to back out now.

And yes, the sound of exposed quad throttles at 8000rpm is just damn sexy. :drool:
Not that Ive got exposed quad throttles, but you know what I mean.

Yeah, Id be stoked to have 187whp.

Hopefully mine will turn out somewhere close to that.

P.S. If anyone has ICQ and would like to discuss redtops etc, my ICQ# is 823-6667.

Awesome! I didnt know that there was a powerFC for the redtop engine.

That will probably be one of my next purchases, when Ive got the cash.

Wow, 195whp?! Do you know what mods were done?

I say 185whp, because I want to be realistic about the gains. A lot of people think "Sweet, 15hp with a pod filter on"

I think 180hp at the wheels should be the minimum, and I'd be happy with that. Any more, and I'd be really happy.

Im interested in talking to any other beams owners, about mods etc.

Has anyone dynoed their beams motor before?

I am using standard rods and pistons, everything will be standard for now, except for what is listed.

I have a set of quad throttles from a silvertop 4age, that I will possibly adapt to the motor a bit later on.... probably at the same time as an ECU upgrade, and a cam grind or replacement cams.


I know of a blacktop 3sge in Australia, that is making 270hp at the wheels!
However it's modded to hell and back.

I'd put you in my will to get the motor if I die, but then you'd just kill me.

Yeah Ive spent a lot so far, Ive had the block over bored half a millimeter, the head completely stripped down and rebuilt. Brand new oversized pistons, rings, belts, gaskets, filters etc.

Parts arent cheap, and they have to come from Japan.

But on the plus side, it will be virtually a brand new motor when I'm done.

Will hopefully be worth the stress/money/effort.

Thanks for the comments.

Its been a long time coming so far, and Ive still got a while to go yet.

But its all starting to come together now, hopefully it will be up and running early next year.

Yep, it should be a fun car at the end of it all.

I agree, the rods do look a little on the skinny side!

I had the pleasure of driving a 1999 beams powered SW20 a few months ago, that had only 20,000kms on the clock.

It looked brand spanking new.

It was being sold, and I sweet talked my way into getting a ride/drive.

I havent driven a celica with a beams motor, but Im sure they go well.

I've also driven a 4wd caldina GT, which has the 190hp automatic version of the beams engine.
It wasnt amazing, but it went bloody well for a 1400kg car with 4 wheel drive and A/T!









Quad throttles from the TRD Altezza motor bolt straight on to the redtop.

TRD Altezza cams wont work however, but rods and pistons will, apparently. But 13:1 compression ratio is a bit unreasonable for a street car IMO.

heres a pic looking inside the plenum.
note the factory velocity stacks.






A pic of the block. Look where the block bulges on the side closest to the camera, inbetween the 1st and second bores from the left... This is the oil gallery used to feed the VVTI mechanism


Crank caps

crank

crank2

picture of the head (Notice the cam angle sensor, down the left hand end of the intake cam (closest to the camera)

head pic 2
Note the solenoid or what ever on top of the head, near the RHS of the closest (intake) camshaft.

New piston


Here is a picture of the porting that has been done.
picutre of the porting


rods

valves


Here are some pics showing the VVTI mechanism.
Notice the oil feed holes on both the end of the camshaft, and inside the cam pulley. It uses oil pressure to rotate the camshaft relative to the pulley.

VVTI mechanism
Note the hole coming out the side of the cam shaft... There is one on the other side too.

VVTI mechanism
Note the corresponding oil gallery, on the inside of the cam pulley.

VVTI mechanism

And here's the car that it will be going into. (eventually!)



Its a 1990 JDM SW20, with the hard top, 5 speed, and gen 2 3sge powered.
It goes pretty well at the moment, as it is rather light. Its the bare basics model, pretty much.
So it should go pretty well with a fresh beams motor pushing it along.


Anyway, if there is anything that anyone would like to know, just let me know.