6G Celicas Forums

3rdgen3sgte....who tuned you apexi power fc?

like everyone has said, determine your power goals first. A gen 2 with a few mods (exhaust, intake, ct20b, boost controller, FCD, and alcohol injection) can do 280-300whp @20 psi with the stock ECU. Then it gets expensive to achieve more because you have to get some kind of ECU mod.....whether it be a rom tune or a Stand Alone with matching fuel and turbo for either....= $$$$. A gen 3 with a few mods (exhaust, intake, boost controller, and water injection) at 18PSI is 300whp, but can go up to 360whp on the stock ECU and fuel, you just need to upgrade the turbo. If you want more then 350whp, then gen 2 all the way, the money and the rarity of the gen 3 just isn't worth it any more, you actually wind of loosing a lot more money and getting absolutely nothing extra out of it.

http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=56752&hl=

Below is a small list that i have gathered for myself over time trying to compare bang for the buck. It just gets overwhelming when reading and searching all the products out there that you can easily get caught up in names, crazy hp numbers, and mind blowing money without actually taking a step back and realize what exactly you are getting.....and what else might be available for the kind of money. Its very easy to just throw your money at something and then realize if you sacrifice 20-30whp but save major money $$$$. When writing it all down and seeing them side by side.....part for part......dollar for dollar you can get a great handle on achieving your own personal goal. And when i was younger i always wanted like 500000000000whp LOLOLOLOLOL but now after riding in several different cars, i have found my own perosnal goal/ride/enjoyment. If you haven't been in anything faster then 14seconds try to get in a couple different setups. You may be surprised to find you don't need the hp that you think you may. Again this a personal list i thought I would share, and yes i understand there are 1000000 different ways to put these setups together.

Details about Gen2 3sgte:
AFM
L-Jetronic engine management
ct26
10psi stock boost
12 psi factory fuel cut
8.8 compression ratio
7200rpm redline
430cc injectors
metal head gasket
TVIS
55mm throttle body
inlet valve lift 8.2
fuel pressure 36psi

Details about Gen3 3sgte:
Bosch D-Jetronic engine management
Ct20B
MAP
Stock boost 13psi
Factory fuel cut 18psi
8.5 compression ratio
7700rpm redline
Factory 540cc injectors
Stainless Steel head gasket
TVIS eliminated
60mm throttle body
valve lift increased to 8.7
fuel pressure 41psi
revised intake manifold
Different ECU
Bigger bore fuel rail
Factory LSD in 80+% of MR2's (E153)
Factory catch can
Better oil cooler
relocated oil filter
No 1 Compression ring described as Stainless Steel
Slightly more aggressive cams

Stock Gen2 Swap
Gen2 clip if its an mr2 clip you get the E153 transmission and axles 2200
FMIC and piping 500
Upgraded clutch (optional but recommended) 450
FCD (optional) 50
3" turbo back (optional but recommended) 600
Water/alcohol injection with 6gph nozzle (window washer fluid) (optional) 200
Ecu work 350
Intake (optional) 30
BOV (optional) 200
Boost controller (optional) 100
Walboro fuel pump 100
Gasket, timing belt, water pump, fluids, misc (optional but highly recommended) 500

Swap totals 5280 as stated above with everything included There are short cuts to be had here, based on options and what you might be able to get other parts for. As for clutch and Gasket, timing belt, water pump, fluids, misc, these are not things you want to be fixing when the motor and trans are in the car. Makes life harder, and much more time consuming then when you have the motor sitting on a stand. But its your swap so chose what "optional features/service" you don't wanna do and subtract from price.

***5280-----247whp 260flbs @16psi with 50/50 mix in Water/alcohol injection, with non-LSD*** aka window washer fluid

Gen2 performance option 1
CT20B 600
5 Gallons of denatured alcohol 50
SAFC for tunning 200

***850-----300-310whp with 100% Alcohol injection, with non-LSD***

Gen2 performance option 2
ATS racing 20g rom tune kit (cheaper kits available if less hp is desired) 3100
kit includes:
ATS TDO6 20G turbocharger kit
ATS 550cc ROM TUNE
ATS modified fuel rail
flow tested Toyota 550cc fuel injectors (apposed to the stock 440's)
walboro fuel pump
170 degree thermostat

***3100-----330-350whp @18psi with 50/50 mix in Water/alcohol injection, with non-LSD***

Gen2 performance option 3
Stand alone---Hydro Nemisis for example starts at 1500
wideband if not bought with ems unit 300
turbo kit of choice 2000
injectors of choice 500
Set of cams, spring, and adjustable cam gears 1000
tunning 800

I understand that you don't need cams....or even an upgraded turbo for that matter to use a stand alone, but i figure if im paying some guy 800 bucks to tune my car.......i don't wanna be calling him back anytime soon bc i didn't need them when the tuner came up. And god knows i wouldn't want to pay an additional 800 just to tune cams, or bigger turbo, or bigger injectors!!!!! This section can vary drastically depending on how extravagant you go. And the number listed below can vary drastically depending on how far you take the motor.....for example head work, built bottom end, etc....at this point you can practically pick the hp you want to run and buy the injectors and turbo to match. If over 400 whp is desired, you may want to start looking into a built bottom end.

***6300-----350whp to limits of stock bottom end (400-450) non-LSD***

Stock Gen3 swap
Mr2 clip with LSD E153 (what i prefer) or GT4 clip (cant use transmission) 4000
FMIC and piping 500
Upgraded clutch (optional but recommended) 450
3" turbo back (optional but recommended) 600
Water/alcohol injection with 6gph nozzle (window washer fluid) (optional) 200
Ecu work 350
Intake (optional) 30
BOV (optional) 200
Boost controller (optional) 100
Walboro fuel pump 100
Gasket, timing belt, water pump, fluids, misc (optional but highly recommended) 500

Swap totals 7000 as stated above with everything included There are short cuts to be had here, based on options and what you might be able to get other parts for. As for clutch and Gasket, timing belt, water pump, fluids, misc, these are not things you want to be fixing when the motor and trans are in the car. Makes life harder, and much more time consuming then when you have the motor sitting on a stand. But its your swap so chose what "optional features/service" you don't wanna do and subtract from price.

***7000-----290whp @18psi with 50/50 mix in Water/alcohol injection and LSD***

Gen3 performance option 1
FCD 200
5 gallons of 100% denatured alcohol 50

***250-----320whp @20psi with 100% Alcohol injection and LSD***


Gen3 performance option 2
TDO6 20g turbo kit from Ats racing (any will do, this is what i like) 2100
5 gallons of denatured alcohol 50

***2150----363whp @19psi with 100% Alcohol injection and LSD***


Gen3 performance option 3
Stand alone---Hydro Nemisis for example starts at 1500
wideband if not bought with ems unit 300
turbo kit of choice 2000
injectors of choice 500
Set of cams, spring, and adjustable cam gears 1000
tunning 800

I understand that you don't need cams....or even an upgraded turbo for that matter to use a stand alone, but i figure if im paying some guy 800 bucks to tune my car.......i don't wanna be calling him back anytime soon bc i didn't need them when the tuner came up. And god knows i wouldn't want to pay an additional 800 just to tune cams, or bigger turbo, or bigger injectors!!!!! This section can vary drastically depending on how extravagant you go. And the number listed below can vary drastically depending on how far you take the motor.....for example head work, built bottom end, etc....at this point you can practically pick the hp you want to run and buy the injectors and turbo to match. If over 400 whp is desired, you may want to start looking into a built bottom end.

***6300-----350whp to limits of stock bottom end (400-450) with LSD***



additional combinations with prices and whp would be great. Please have some backing behind your numbers.....where i have retrieved all of mine off MR2OC.com. Thanks

Hi all, ok it may seem like i am new but i have been around a while, reading and viewing from afar. It seems that there may be some bi est posts about what is better out there when it comes to the turbo 5sfe (5sfte) and the 3sgte. I have owned both cars. And they are both great. If you own a 3sgte........AWESOME, I BET YOU LOVE IT!!!! If you own a 5sfte...........AWESOME, I BET YOU LOVE IT!!!!!!! But this post is not so much about what is better, (because lets face it anything is fast if your rich) no this post is about the bang for your buck....The budget build......Or the person who has a little bit to dump into there car and needs some guidance......Or for the person who wants a turbo celica and doesn't know what to do, 5sfte or 3sgte (i chose these 2 bc i have no experience with the other motors and turbos, so i wont comment, this is pure experience). I will break the list into 2 price lists. First the cost of a 3sgte swap, then the cost to turbo your 5sfe.


3sgte swap:

3sgte 2nd gen clip $2500-$3000------3sgte 3rd gen clip $3000-$3500
XXL FMIC $150 ( Ebay Bar and plate Intercoolers work well for what it is)
Intercooler piping with couplers $200 (off ebay assuming you dont have skills welding, this will work fine)
walboro 255 Fuel pump $100
Berks down pipe $200
Gaskets, fluids, misc $500 ( I know this is optional but, its out why find out you have a blown head gasket or something later when the motor is in the car. But up to you im throwing it in there bc thats what i did)
Stage 2 clutch or your choice $450
Timing job $250 (again up to you, but HIGHLY recommended)
Ecu work $350 (tweak does these)
Total 4700-5700 (obviously the gap is dictated by the motor of choice (2nd gen or 3rd gen motor)


5sfte:

3sgte stock exhaust manifold $50 (flow well and doesnt crack)
ct26 to t3 adapter with wastegate flange $100-175(ebay 100 no welding required but placement is to the left or right .....ATS adapter 175, but you need to weld on your own wastegate flange. but the placement is towards the front
t3 turbo $200-600 (ebay sells turbos for cheap, and there a mixed opions, do your own research ppl have used them with success, $600 get you a real garret turbo with a one year one questions asked warrenty, and there proven)
Tial wastegate with 5.8psi spring $200 (the spring size doesnt mean you can only run 6 psi, that just means thats the lowest amount of boost you can run, with this spring and a boost controller you can run up to 12 psi)
XXL Intercooler $150
Intercooler piping and couplers $200
1 -3an Stainless Steel Braided feed line $50
1 block fitting with 3 an adapter $30
1 -10an return line $50
1 -10an oil pan fitting $50
1 -10an garret turbo fitting $30
Boost controller $100 (twos r us)
2 bar map sensor $75
rx7 injectors 440's $100
cleaning of injectors $60
walboro 255 fuel pump $100
AFC2 $200
Custom down pipe$200
Stage 2 Clutch $450

Total
2200-2600 (turbo dictates price)

Ok the reason I wrote about going with a t3 of some sort (which i personally believe should be either a 46 trim and no bigger then a 50 trim) was because when i was doing research for my turbo 5s, i didn't like the results of the ct26 turbo kits on the 5s. Dont get me wrong it works. but for the money and the time to me just making 200 whp wasn't worth it. The i went to mr2oc and saw what those guys were doing. (I HIGHLY RECOMMENDED checking them out from time to time when you have the itch for performance, anything you might be thinking about DOING they have done 100 different ways, LITERALLY ) This is where i saw some 3s guys using t3's on stock ecus, and even some 5s guys talking the same. So i tried it. And with great success i pulled 240whp and over 270flbs of torque at 11psi on pump gas. This really woke the car up. It brought it from its mid 17 quarter mile runs to a flat 14.0 all day everyday. Really made a difference. And the car feels like an animal.

My 3s I have up to 17 psi and at 264 whp and 252lbs. This is a stock swap with a Fuel cut defender, 3" exhaust and a boost controller. And let me tell you something. The 5s holds its own. It keeps up well. The 3s on a good run will throw down a 13.8 so compared to my 5's at 14.0 one wrong move, or a little hard out of the whole and the 5s takes it. If i were to install cams on the 5s it would eat up the dead spot above 4900 rpms and eat time away from that 14.0. I don't know what the limits are of the 5s, so when i install my cams i will probably turn the boost back to stay around 240whp bc i dont want to hurt reliability, and Pressure2 has been in the 240 @16 psi range for about 2 years it seems. Ive been there for a while also with no problems. So to me its proven thats the 5s can handle 240whp and 270+lbs without hurting reliability. So based on that, cams will make the car faster by eliminating that dead spot and let the car keep pulling. So it will be a dead match for my 3s. And for the people who don't know bc it hasn't been posted much, you must like working on cars to swap to a 3s, because it will make a mechanic out of you. If you take your car to a garage to have something worked on they will send you away, they wont work on something so modified, and if they do they either mess it up by ordering wrong parts or charge a lot of money doing research and taking the time to figure what kind of animal they are dealing with. Yes i understand that if you are capable of doing a swap you can handle just about anything. But what if you cant handle it and you have to fix something later on down the road that may happen, or your hurt and cant get under there but its ur daily driver and you need if for work.......you may have a hard time finding a garage.....lets face it, life happens. Not to mention that if you half way through your swap and you realize you are in way over your head..........you can ask for help thats why this site was created, this site is awesome. You may even have someone be willing to come help you. But if thats the case, they may not always be able to come and help you at the drop of a hat. Without looking into to much, i would say this may be part of the reason so many people finish a swap or have a swap done for them and then sell it with 6 months. If you decided to turbo your 5sfe a garge wont have trouble with it because everything is the same, but with a turbo kit installed. Lets face it how many hondas do they deal with this. Again, this is just being realistic, giving the people who don't really know a chance to understand. I am not trying discourage, just trying to get all the information out there that i can on one page.

Depending on your goals this is where you need to make a decision. THE 3s is a very powerful motor. No questions asked. If you want 400+hp go with the 3s. The offset of the cost of the swap will be easily tightened and passed trying to get the 5s to 400+hp. The 3s will make 400+hp quicker, easier, cheaper, and more reliably then the 5s can for the same amount of money, or even close to the same about of digits for that matter 0000 00000. But like i said, this is for a budget build comparison of the 5sfe to the 3sgte for the average person who wants more out of there celica. so

3sgte-----------$4700-5700
5sfte------------$2200-2600

I hope this help shed some light on one of the most commonly asked questions on this site.