6G Celicas Forums

Sounds like a plan.

The PCV valve is already a one-way valve. It only works under vacuum. If the IM sees positive pressure it doesn't operate, and handles the job over to the side port on the valve cover. I was gonna suggest that you use a vacuum manifold but seems like you got it all planned out.

Good to hear, makes that a bit easier

Thanks, looking forward to testing it out. Just making a detonation listening device to clamp to engine so can record any det when testing.

460cc injectors have arrived - had a thought though, will the emanage blue be able to tune this down ? Only deal with injectors 50% bigger ? - anyone with any experience on this ?

Also have a 255 fuel pump and fuel pump regulator come through so stronger on fuel supply.

The e-manage Blue is not going to be enough to turbo a 3S-FE. It's not meant to be used by itself as a turbocharged application ECU. It's more for NA cars with a fue VE increasing mods.

You should've gotten 315cc injectors instead of 460cc if you were gonna use the e-manage to tune, IMO.

thanks

I have 3sge injectors, 295cc, as well, and everything is changeable at the moment Can pick up 315s as well. And still have the 460s as an option. So can try a few to see how things work.

emanage blue will need to do for now, however what do you recommend instead ? ultimate ? or another....

I recommend not using it and waiting to get something better. The only thing better is a standalone ECU of your choice.

Thought I would swing by and update, engine still running fine, passed uk emissions and mot with no advisories or fails. Have an oil leak from oil feed to turbo, only minor, just need to get at it to seal it up.

Need to sort out tuning still, as wot is 10 or lower afr, so overfuelling, but not often in high boost. Have a boost leak somewhere, but boosts happily 1-5 and pulls along nicely, and goes 8-10 on wot with no det as yet, but to be fair not often in that, and then only for brief period. Off wide open fuelling looks ok, stoic until start hitting boost then drops to 12s in low boost, not wot.

When boost does kick in though, shifts somewhat

tuning is proving tircky though as open loop seems to dump fuel like crazy, so will need I guess to use throttle position to pull fuel at 80-100%, though this feels wrong!

But assuming over fuelling is happily destroying the sports cat....

Drives almost stock off boost which is nice, though exhaust is VERY loud, only the back box and cat on it.

If this was tuned properly it could go pretty high I reckon...but happy to take it slowly and tinker

Very interesting, digs. I'm glad you posted this here. Without alot of first hand experience, I consider the 3sfe an underrated engine. I think it's a good engine for the type of thing you have here. That is to say an iterative, homemade turbo system. Or as it is often reffered to: "Slap A Turbo On It".

thanks interesting the differences between the 5sfe and 3sfe actually, pretty much the same bhp basic (135 5sfe I believe vs 138 3sfe) so turbo power should be similar ? its not the best engine so sod it and give it a go To be fair not sure why the 2.2 has similar bhp to the 2 litre 3sfe ? Would have thought the 5sfe should have more.Certainly my 3sfe is later model than the earlier 3sfes, direct ignition and a different ecu.

Just about to fit wilwood 4 pot fronts and gt4 rears, to add some braking goodness.

edit: some engine stats, 5sfe slightly less bhp but more torque

3S-FE
1998cc. 9.5:1 compression ratio.
136 bhp (138PS) @ 6000 rpm
137 lbft @ 4400 rpm.

5S-FE 93-01
compr.: 9.5:1 displ.: 2162cc
135 hp (101 kW)@5400 rpm
145 ft·lbf (196 Nm)@4400 rpm

This post has been edited by digs: Dec 9, 2013 - 4:37 PM

5S-FE was built for torque, not horsepower. The 3S-FE most likely has the same power due to it being able to rev a little higher with no issues. Perhaps the cams are different in both the 5S and 3S, or there's a difference in the intake manifold, or some minor detail.

As you see, it does have similar power, but don't just look at the power, look at the RPM it makes that power. The 5SFE makes its peak at 5400RPM while the 3SFE makes it at 6000RPM which means it likes revving higher than the 5S, which is better for turbocharged applications, in terms of power.

However the 5S-FE will spool the same turbo faster and make more torque.

I've always wanted to compare the 5S head to a 3S head, as well as the 3S block from an FE engine to a GE engine.... I'm willing to bet you can slap a GE head easier on your block than we 5S-FE guys can on ours. I almost bought a 3S-FE back when I bought my new 5S-FE. In retrospect I probably should've.

I'm looking for a motor now and the 3sfe doesn't look too bad compared to the 5sfe. Given the choice of a square 2 liter and an otherwise identical 2.2 stroker, I would lean towards the 2.0. Add the price difference into the equation and the 3sfe is hard to ignore.

I'd say that both the 3sfe and 5sfe were built for torque and not horsepower. The extra stroke (and bore too) of the 5sfe does not seem to be complemented with changes that would allow it to make more power. The head, cams, manifolds and all appear to be almost identical the smaller 3sfe. The extra displacement can get the intake and exhaust ports flowing at an earlier rpm leading to more torque at low rpm, and ultimately ingest more air per cycle thus making more peak torque. At higher engine speeds, the 2.0 sized manifolds and cams constrain the 5sfe, and it doesn't make much more (if any) power than the 3sfe.

To me, it appears that the a 5sfe is a 3sfe that is massaged to be more appropriate for automatic transmissions and heavier cars. And maybe fatter people. The better torque at low speeds equals lower rpm take off and thus less noise from both the engine and transmission.

^--- Yup.

100% agree, especially when I saw a 3S-FE and 5S-FE side by side at the engine importer I purchased my 5S-FE. The engines are IDENTICAL on the outside.

i dont think a 3sg head on a 3sf block would make a 3sge. i think it would make a weak motor that ran like ****

having no experience of the 5sfe, I can say (any boost leaks not withstanding which may be clouding my view) my 3sfte does suffer from turbolag more than I expected, however when in higher revs becomes a very fun car to drive, 5.5 to 6k and it feels quite alive, boost is kicking in big time, etc.

However....I am thinking the 5sfte may be more fun if boost is coming in lower and easier. Though it does mean I can easily drive my 3sfte off boost, and still actually enjoy it. Just have to "work" for boost with it (though 2 or 3psi going up hills kicks in quickly and makes accelerating up them easier!)

It all depends on the turbo you're using.

3S-FE will surely have more lag, but don't expect the extra .2L to knock off a full 1000RPM of spool up on the same turbo. I think the 3S-FE is also a bit lower compression (9.3:1) than the 5S-FE (9.5:1) so there's a little more spoolup difference there. However, the lower compression allows you to turn up the boost a little bit higher than the 5S-FE will on the same octane fuel and same turbo.

You should look into putting on a GE head and pistons in in the near future... it's a lot easier to do given you've already got the 3S block. A 2nd gen head should bolt right up.

If you feel your turbo is too laggy it probably means it's too big. In my case, my turbo comes alive when I step on it at 2800-3000RPM, and the car pulls up until 5800 and then it falls flat on its face.

I think the compression ratio for the newer 3sfes may be 9.8. I've been trying to search for info about it and it's limited. From what I can tell, there's a major revision of the 3sfe that occurs with the introduction of the 5sfe. The "pre-5sfe" version of the 3sfe may have had lower compression.

I agree with Syaoran about the turbo lag. The 5sfe would surely spool the same turbo all things equal faster, but there are so many factors involved with your turbo response that if you wish to improve it, then there is surely several ways to do so.

Things that can lower threshold and lag:

Tuning: Once the full throttle on-boost tuning is sorted, the low-load regions can be fine tuned. Resulting in better driveability and mileage and better turbo response.

Wastegate performance: Tired wastegate actuators can make sluggish response. A healthy working wastegate can be augmented with a computer boost controller. This can reduce lag.

Exhaust after turbine: This will greatly effect the response of the turbine. The turbine would achieve maximum response and efficiency with the downpipe and all exhaust removed completely. A restrictive enough exhaust will actually reduce the amount of boost your turbo can make in total, with a corresponding hit to response!

Turbo center section: The turbocharger's bearing. This should be in good condition before judging the response of the turbo. Otherwise it's like judging a restaurant by tasting a week-old doggybag from the fridge.

Charge piping and intercooler: Generally, yes the compressor will fill up any arrangement of pipes, couplers, bends and cooler core. But these volumes can be optimized for the sake of turbo response.

Usually when race teams are limited to certain amounts of peak power with a turbo, the engine development turns towards turbo response at various rpms to get better performance.

Thanks for the info...

Tuning: Once the full throttle on-boost tuning is sorted, the low-load regions can be fine tuned. Resulting in better driveability and mileage and better turbo response.


Tuning is ultra safe at mo, fuelling no issue (over if not less) and ignition pulled for safety, so there are areas of moving back there.

Exhaust after turbine: This will greatly effect the response of the turbine. The turbine would achieve maximum response and efficiency with the downpipe and all exhaust removed completely. A restrictive enough exhaust will actually reduce the amount of boost your turbo can make in total, with a corresponding hit to response!

Have 2.5" exhaust with sports cat, so don't think it would be that....

Turbo center section: The turbocharger's bearing. This should be in good condition before judging the response of the turbo. Otherwise it's like judging a restaurant by tasting a week-old doggybag from the fridge.


THIS^^ Second hand ct26 thrown on, doesn't smoke but providence unknown.... may well be crappy and that's the reason, thinking of reconing or going for a replica to see.


Charge piping and intercooler: Generally, yes the compressor will fill up any arrangement of pipes, couplers, bends and cooler core. But these volumes can be optimized for the sake of turbo response

Clocking the turbo would give me a better route

an update...just grabbed a ST205 shell with engine, turbo, loom and ecu