![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined May 10, '14 From Tulsa, OK Currently Offline Reputation: 5 (100%) ![]() |
Never read that one either. I used to watch too much TV ( I know that is bad) so when my then 6 years old daughter started quoting Disney characters, I decided it was time to cut the Cable 'cord'. Never been happier since. The remaining 5 local channels including public provide pleenty of news and entertainment that I never miss cable. I am especially happy that I dont have to hear or see Kardasians/honey bobo anymore. All that saving is now go into this project car (LOL).
Langing; You are in the heart (or close to it) of NASCAR country. You should have machine/engine building shops everywhere in that City. There is a lot of knowledge about engine building down south so I heard. I would recommend check with your folks at work etc., they will let you know or know of someone that does a reputable job. In terms of buying the $300 rebuild head, some of those come with 1 year/unlimited mileage warranty. Someone told me the other day that usually they do not spend much time in valve lapping. Not sure if the local will do any better, it depends upon how busy they are. Keeping an eye on the oil consumption right now and doing other stuff to bring it back to the state that I will be happy with. |
![]() |
|
Enthusiast ![]() ![]() Joined Apr 24, '14 From Durham, NC, USA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
Never read that one either. I used to watch too much TV ( I know that is bad) so when my then 6 years old daughter started quoting Disney characters, I decided it was time to cut the Cable 'cord'. Never been happier since. The remaining 5 local channels including public provide pleenty of news and entertainment that I never miss cable. I am especially happy that I dont have to hear or see Kardasians/honey bobo anymore. All that saving is now go into this project car (LOL). Langing; You are in the heart (or close to it) of NASCAR country. You should have machine/engine building shops everywhere in that City. There is a lot of knowledge about engine building down south so I heard. I would recommend check with your folks at work etc., they will let you know or know of someone that does a reputable job. In terms of buying the $300 rebuild head, some of those come with 1 year/unlimited mileage warranty. Someone told me the other day that usually they do not spend much time in valve lapping. Not sure if the local will do any better, it depends upon how busy they are. Keeping an eye on the oil consumption right now and doing other stuff to bring it back to the state that I will be happy with. We also cut the cable. . . about nine months ago. Still watch too much TV, but it's better cause it's actually coming from the computer, and is mostly YouTube how to, news and movies. Now any crap we watch is pretty much our own fault, except there has been a dramatic increase in the number of ads on YouTube. If ads get any worse, we will just cut out YouTube as well. What little intelligence I have is totally insulted by them. Our old provider was TimeWarner and they were so bad you can't believe, but worse because over 20% of their ads were for themselves! We were paying them a fortune to send out TimeWarner ads??? As far as me living in NASCAR country, you do have a good point. The kind of resources you are talking about probably do exist in many of the smaller towns scattered throughout NC, but especially in the mountains around Asheville where the moonshiners once thrived. Those guys created the racing industry because they had to in order to be in their line of business. Now NASCAR's HQs is in Charlotte near or at the Speedway. As I gain more experience working on my own car, perhaps I will run into some of those guys. It's something I should put some time into checking out. But long time racing stables like those of the Petty Brothers, to name one, certainly aren't looking to help idiots like me out. Many of them are now celebrities. I'll let you know if something interesting turns up. Till then, keep on aiming high! This post has been edited by Langing: Jun 19, 2014 - 5:15 PM |
![]() |
|
Enthusiast ![]() ![]() Joined Apr 24, '14 From Durham, NC, USA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
Well, we have this little tire shop and the old guy that runs the place has been there for a long time, so I went down and asked him who around here I can trust. I told him I wasn't afraid to pay a regular rate, but who is Not going to FuKK me? And he told me who I should go and see, and I had them put a motor in an Astro van, which was like a 12 hour job where you had to drop the Subframe, and he did the labor for $650 and everything worked great. Ive also considered changing out the whole motor as its 8 hours labor for the head and only 10 for the whole motor. There was a guy on the FB group selling a rebuilt 5sfe for $600 just a couple weeks ago. Sounds like you wisely know your way around. That was a perfect place and way to introduce yourself. And the result speaks for itself. I think I should learn from your experience and try to do the same. That 5sfe you saw, it sounds like you are thinking of putting one in your 94 GT. Would it be a lot of trouble to change out? Also, I'm wondering if it would it be possible to put one in my manual 94 ST Coup, which still has the original 7afe? And if it was possible, what's involved in doing that? Sounds like a major job for a casual DIY guy. Would the extra power be worth the effort? I'm not looking for a race car, just a little more get up and go, and possibly a little more threatening sound?! Finally, $600 for a rebuilt 5sfe sounds like a real deal. Or said another way, if something sounds too good to be true, it isn't. . . ![]() But, hey, what do I know? |
![]() |
|
![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Oct 29, '11 From Haltom City, Texas Currently Offline Reputation: 1 (100%) ![]() |
I got a 5S from a 93 Camry with 163k in the junkyard for $200. Picked the camry/5s with the cleanest looking oil on the dipstick. When I pulled the pan off later and checked the bearings they still had crosshatches on them from being rebuilt.
It only takes a long day to swap the motor yourself after you've done it once. |
![]() |
|
Enthusiast ![]() ![]() Joined Apr 24, '14 From Durham, NC, USA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
I got a 5S from a 93 Camry with 163k in the junkyard for $200. Picked the camry/5s with the cleanest looking oil on the dipstick. When I pulled the pan off later and checked the bearings they still had crosshatches on them from being rebuilt. It only takes a long day to swap the motor yourself after you've done it once. To me. . . that's a mouthful. . . "after you've done it once". . . makes all the difference in the world! But, that is only ME, I am sure. ![]() Then that brings me back to my question. Can I put a 5S into my AT200 frame? Rather, after I've done it once, can I put a 5S into my AT200 frame? ![]() |
![]() |
|
![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Oct 29, '11 From Haltom City, Texas Currently Offline Reputation: 1 (100%) ![]() |
Yeah you just need more parts. Some of the electronics, the wiring harness, the transmission, axles. There is probably more, you basically need a running parts car. You could swap a 3SGTE for the same amount of trouble
|
![]() |
|
Enthusiast ![]() ![]() Joined Apr 24, '14 From Durham, NC, USA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
Yeah you just need more parts. Some of the electronics, the wiring harness, the transmission, axles. There is probably more, you basically need a running parts car. You could swap a 3SGTE for the same amount of trouble Let me ask in a different way. In your opinion, if you had my car (94 Celica ST Manual 1.8 L), and wanted to somewhat upgrade its engine (has original 7A-FE with 300k miles), what would you do? For me, just replacing it with another (rebuilt) 7A-FE isn't out of the question. I was just thinking that if I was going to that much trouble (what to me seems like a lot of trouble), what might be possible with a little more effort. And your last comment led me to wonder if I could obtain a "wiring harness" by going to a junkyard? Like supposing I was going to pick out an engine at some junkyard, should I just pick out the wiring harness while I was taking out the engine? And would that wiring harness and engine be easy to integrate back into my car? Yeah, these are questions that are too simple, meaning hard to get experienced people to stop and answer, but I remind you that I am a baby cakes beginner at all of this kind of work, so each time you answer them you are speeding the growth of my naive but expanding knowledge base. |
![]() |
|
![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Oct 29, '11 From Haltom City, Texas Currently Offline Reputation: 1 (100%) ![]() |
The 5sfe isnt worth the trouble.
Maybe a 4age If you wanted something spicier which would utilize the existing drivetrain, you need a custom harness and the ecu. A 3sge, 3sgte or 1mz would require a GT drivetrain. The 3s engines are the only ones that you could use a factory harness on, they would bolt into a GT. 1mz is about as cheap as a 5sfe or 7a but then you need a lot of custom parts besides the GT drivetrain, exhaust, motor mount, clutch and wiring harness to name a few. Boosting a 7a is always an option too. I was trying to figure out if 4age heads or camshafts would swap into a 7a but I lacked the interest to finish the hardcore research. |
![]() |
|
![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Jan 4, '12 From US Currently Offline Reputation: 6 (100%) ![]() |
The 5sfe isnt worth the trouble. Maybe a 4age If you wanted something spicier which would utilize the existing drivetrain, you need a custom harness and the ecu. A 3sge, 3sgte or 1mz would require a GT drivetrain. The 3s engines are the only ones that you could use a factory harness on, they would bolt into a GT. 1mz is about as cheap as a 5sfe or 7a but then you need a lot of custom parts besides the GT drivetrain, exhaust, motor mount, clutch and wiring harness to name a few. Boosting a 7a is always an option too. I was trying to figure out if 4age heads or camshafts would swap into a 7a but I lacked the interest to finish the hardcore research. I was doing a little research for a friend once and I found on various 4A-GE oriented forums a couple of bottom end swaps. It's somewhat easier than the 3SGTE/GE head onto the 5SFE, as the bore for the pistons is the same so you can use 4A-GE pistons and no custom piston is necessary. However, some things change and you have to get a Porsche timing belt because the block is taller on the 7AFE. The 7A-FE also has a better design on the rods compared to the 5S-FE, 4A-GE and 3S-GTE in the sense that it already uses bolts and not "studs", which can be replaced for stronger ARP2000 units from a Renault Clio 16v for around $120. A high compression, bigport 7age 1.8L hybrid with stock rods can rev up to 8600RPM with no problems if the rod bolts are used and it'll make 200whp if not more with proper mods (ITB, cams and exhaust mainly) It seemed very attractive to me to go backwards and convert my GT celica into an ST with a Celica GT-S 2000+ 6-speed for an extra hundred wheel horsepower while N/A, but then I decided against it because I prefer turbos... -------------------- 1993 Celica GT Coupe - sold
1994 Celica GT Liftback |
![]() |
|
![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Oct 29, '11 From Haltom City, Texas Currently Offline Reputation: 1 (100%) ![]() |
Never read that one either. I used to watch too much TV ( I know that is bad) so when my then 6 years old daughter started quoting Disney characters, I decided it was time to cut the Cable 'cord'. Never been happier since. The remaining 5 local channels including public provide pleenty of news and entertainment that I never miss cable. I am especially happy that I dont have to hear or see Kardasians/honey bobo anymore. All that saving is now go into this project car (LOL). Langing; You are in the heart (or close to it) of NASCAR country. You should have machine/engine building shops everywhere in that City. There is a lot of knowledge about engine building down south so I heard. I would recommend check with your folks at work etc., they will let you know or know of someone that does a reputable job. In terms of buying the $300 rebuild head, some of those come with 1 year/unlimited mileage warranty. Someone told me the other day that usually they do not spend much time in valve lapping. Not sure if the local will do any better, it depends upon how busy they are. Keeping an eye on the oil consumption right now and doing other stuff to bring it back to the state that I will be happy with. We also cut the cable. . . about nine months ago. Still watch too much TV, but it's better cause it's actually coming from the computer, and is mostly YouTube how to, news and movies. Now any crap we watch is pretty much our own fault, except there has been a dramatic increase in the number of ads on YouTube. If ads get any worse, we will just cut out YouTube as well. What little intelligence I have is totally insulted by them. Our old provider was TimeWarner and they were so bad you can't believe, but worse because over 20% of their ads were for themselves! We were paying them a fortune to send out TimeWarner ads??? As far as me living in NASCAR country, you do have a good point. The kind of resources you are talking about probably do exist in many of the smaller towns scattered throughout NC, but especially in the mountains around Asheville where the moonshiners once thrived. Those guys created the racing industry because they had to in order to be in their line of business. Now NASCAR's HQs is in Charlotte near or at the Speedway. As I gain more experience working on my own car, perhaps I will run into some of those guys. It's something I should put some time into checking out. But long time racing stables like those of the Petty Brothers, to name one, certainly aren't looking to help idiots like me out. Many of them are now celebrities. I'll let you know if something interesting turns up. Till then, keep on aiming high! Somehow I just read the part about youtube. The ads are fantastic. Most of my income comes from my youtube channel. If it wasnt for ads noone would waste their time bringing you quality videos. Time is money. |
![]() |
|
![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined May 10, '14 From Tulsa, OK Currently Offline Reputation: 5 (100%) ![]() |
Soooo back to my original question: Are the aftermarket heads any good?
|
![]() |
|
Enthusiast ![]() ![]() Joined Apr 24, '14 From Durham, NC, USA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
Soooo back to my original question: Are the aftermarket heads any good? The original question sought information about experiences members have had when using a large head rebuilding company. So far, no member has stepped forward to offer a single experience. So, we are still left wondering how good these outfits are at rebuilding heads. And it would be good to know because they seem to offer an inexpensive approach to rebuild a head. Previous comments have shown that this isn't a "no brainer" type of question. The answer depends on who is asking the question, what their personal goals are when asking (are they biased toward DIY; do they prefer giving he work to a local person, do they prefer to farm the job out and forget about it, etc), and at least one unknown (what experiences have people had.with corporate rebuilders). Making the decision of what approach to use when you need to fix your head should depend on your expectations of quality, cost, time to complete, as well as the amount of personal effort required. So, break the problem down and ask instead simpler questions, as follows, and perhaps those answers might help make the bigger decision: A) Which of the following approaches can be expected to provide the highest quality job when rebuilding an "old" head? (i.e., which will lead to the likelihood of the longest additional engine life?) 1) Total DIY? 2) DIY and Local Machine Shop? 3) DIY and a company that rebuilds thousands of heads each year? 4) No DIY; Just drop car off with Dealer to install NEW head. B) Which of the following approaches is expected to provide the least expensive job when rebuilding an "old" head? (i.e., lowest cost) 1) Total DIY? 2) DIY and Local Machine Shop? 3) DIY and a company that rebuilds thousands of heads each year? 4) No DIY; Just drop car off with Dealer to install NEW head. C) Which of the following approaches will take the least time to complete when rebuilding an "old" head? (i.e., least amount of time your car will be out of service) 1) Total DIY? 2) DIY and Local Machine Shop? 3) DIY and a company that rebuilds thousands of heads each year? 4) No DIY; Just drop car off with Dealer to install NEW head. D) Which of the following approaches can be expected to require the least amount of your personal effort when rebuilding an "old" head? (i.e., which will lead to the likelihood of the longest additional engine life?) 1) Total DIY? 2) DIY and Local Machine Shop? 3) DIY and a company that rebuilds thousands of heads each year? 4) No DIY; Just drop car off with Dealer to install NEW head. Me answering the four questions: A4, B3, C4, D4 Now, do the same exercise again, but drop out item 4: Me answering the four questions: A3, B3, C3, D2 Let's take a poll. What would your answers be? Or is this exercise unhelpful? |
![]() |
|
![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Dec 3, '13 From Missourah Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
You can add a poll if you go back and edit the original post.
From my experience you NEVER EVER pick #4 in any category. I buy lots of high quality parts from Toyota, but once its past a certain age there's not much need for the dealer mechanic. It will be more expensive and you Still can't guarantee its right. : ( From there it really just depends on your skill level. If you have a garage and the tools and know what you're doing there's no reason not to do it yourself. You're going to need the machine shop to rebuild your head. But if you're an a mature mechanic you could do it but not if its your daily driver and you have to have it done right in < 2 days. Even when taking it to a shop just search around until you think you've found somebody who knows what they're doing and won't hose you. -------------------- Bust a Deal; Face the Wheel.
|
![]() |
|
![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined May 10, '14 From Tulsa, OK Currently Offline Reputation: 5 (100%) ![]() |
OK here is my situation, which may or may not differ from Langing's situation:
1.This is my second car so I have another vehicle to drive if I have to. 2. I have a two car garage and almost all the tools to do the job 3. Know-how: This is the area where I do not have a whole lot of expertise. I have done one similar work on my 1974 Celica long time ago and I had help. So with little encouragement, I think I can do it. take the head off, take it to a reputable shop and have them rebuild it while I work on removing the pistons. the knowlege I lack is keeping it all straight, while putting it back together. Not putting the piston in the wrong cylinder etc. My original question was whether aftermarket heads are reliable or not. The only reason for asking that question was to eliminate the wait time for the head rebuild and a little bit of saving. My main goal is to put the car in its original running condition. Thanks |
![]() |
|
![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Dec 3, '13 From Missourah Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
To me the rebuilt head is just as good as a head that you take to a shop yourself, or for that matter if you buy a used head and take it to the machine shop yourself. But to me you can get a salvage head for $110 and get it cleaned, mangnifluxed, resurfaced tested and whatever for maybe as low as $50. But you will have the local machine shops testimony on the condition of the head.
-------------------- Bust a Deal; Face the Wheel.
|
![]() |
|
![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Oct 29, '11 From Haltom City, Texas Currently Offline Reputation: 1 (100%) ![]() |
Whats the shipping on a cylinder head? Do you have to pay the shipping if it is returned?
|
![]() |
|
Enthusiast ![]() ![]() Joined Apr 24, '14 From Durham, NC, USA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
OK here is my situation, which may or may not differ from Langing's situation: 1.This is my second car so I have another vehicle to drive if I have to. 2. I have a two car garage and almost all the tools to do the job 3. Know-how: This is the area where I do not have a whole lot of expertise. I have done one similar work on my 1974 Celica long time ago and I had help. So with little encouragement, I think I can do it. take the head off, take it to a reputable shop and have them rebuild it while I work on removing the pistons. the knowlege I lack is keeping it all straight, while putting it back together. Not putting the piston in the wrong cylinder etc. My original question was whether aftermarket heads are reliable or not. The only reason for asking that question was to eliminate the wait time for the head rebuild and a little bit of saving. My main goal is to put the car in its original running condition. Thanks We have quite similar situations, actually. My main goal is also to put my car into its original running condition. Here is my situation compared to yours: #1, Same #2, Same #3. Same "whether aftermarket heads are reliable or not" WAS your original question. If, in reality, the answer were that those aftermarket heads were of equal or better reliability than heads overhauled by a local machine shop, you might purchase one of them, and then you would "eliminate the wait time" while saving a little money. You would, of course have to repack and ship the head you remove back to the rebuilder (but you already paid for that in the original price). IMHO using a rebuilt head from one of the big head rebuilders SHOULD be cheaper, and more reliable, than using a local machine shop because of economies of scale (by them purchasing wearing parts, cleaning solvents, and polishing materials in bulk), and refinement of process quality controls (having a line of expert rebuilders, people who do nothing but that all day long every day). These economies can only be achieved by a large rebuilder. Thus, this OUGHT to be the wise decision, only we have no one that has yet stepped up to testify that they have used rebuilt heads shipped by whoever, and are still perfectly happy some ten or more years later. But even that is a crap-shoot because it is a sample of only one. Statistically speaking, you need a much larger set of reviewers who have been satisfied before you know for certain. Why don't you contact a rebuilder and ask for testimonials from their customers? Unless you personally know a local machine shop operator and you have absolute faith in him, because you have worked with him before, or someone you know and trust has, how do figure he will do your job as well as people who focus entirely on rebuilding heads? In today's economy, people who work for themselves cut as many corners as possible to be able to make any money at all. We are victims of the "race to the bottom." Today I find it impossible to find and employ a roofer, painter, auto mechanic, you name it, anyone who will do the work I want done at a level of quality that meets my standards, which are admittedly high but not unreasonable. That is, unless I pay more money than I can afford to give him the luxury of time to perform at that quality level. Even if I do that, it still might be impossible to get them to work "at my quality level". And, I've a recent experience that fits this perfectly. I just paid a hungry painter a couple of hundred dollars more than he was asking ($800 rather than $600) to top off a few parts of the exterior house painting job I had been doing on my own home (I have a 30 foot ladder but still can't get to certain places). It wasn't a lot of work; I figured day or two. I was hoping that by my word and deed he would understand how badly I wanted him to give me a quality job. Turns out he thought he was doing the job to my standards, but he wasn't, and I could see no 'civil' way to explain the difference to him. I came away from the experience thinking that the problem was that he has an internal calibrated standard for the way he paints, a calibration that has been developing all along, and at the present time he really doesn't know how to paint in any way other than the way he does it ---- meaning a way in which he can make money, for to him, like so many others TIME = MONEY. So, he has only one speed, FAST. A machinist exists under the same economic pressures my painter lives in, so the same forces shape him as well. In a typical machine shop, do they rebuild heads all day long? Or do they take in whatever machining job that comes in the door that day? If you found one that only did heads, then you might be safe choosing them to do the job on your head. Then you get back the same head that came off your car (a plus?) and you could perhaps watch them do the work to check if they are doing it well (do you know what to look for? I don't!). Why is buying a rebuilt head any different than buying a rebuilt starter motor or a rebuilt alternator? |
![]() |
|
Enthusiast ![]() ![]() Joined Apr 24, '14 From Durham, NC, USA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
Whats the shipping on a cylinder head? Do you have to pay the shipping if it is returned? The rebuilders I looked at charged a fixed fee (a few hundred dollars) and out of that money they purchase the return shipping, so all you do is crate the head back up in the container the head you bought came in and paste the prepaid shipping label on it and call Fed Ex, (or whoever). Sorry, I reread your question. You asked if you have to pay if you return the head? I'm guessing you meant that the head that you received wasn't right for your car, or was damaged, or you wanted to return it for any reason to the rebuilder you bought it from. I would expect you would then have to pay the shipping charges, but you had already paid for shipping charges to send back the head you were removing when you put on the new one. Guess what you end up paying depends on the reason you want to ship it back. If it were non-functional, maybe they pay. I didn't see that situation described in what I read on-line. This post has been edited by Langing: Jul 1, 2014 - 3:01 PM |
![]() |
|
Enthusiast ![]() ![]() Joined Apr 24, '14 From Durham, NC, USA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
To me the rebuilt head is just as good as a head that you take to a shop yourself, or for that matter if you buy a used head and take it to the machine shop yourself. But to me you can get a salvage head for $110 and get it cleaned, mangnifluxed, resurfaced tested and whatever for maybe as low as $50. But you will have the local machine shops testimony on the condition of the head. I was thinking that rebuilding a head meant more than just cleaning, resurfacing, and checking for cracks. It's got cam shafts, and all sorts of stuff in there that I know nothing about, but don't the moving parts get examined for wear and replaced if needed. Don't they grind valve seats? Stuff like that? What exactly do they do when they rebuild a head? Can you point me to some resource I can read, or some video on YouTube? |
![]() |
|
![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Oct 29, '11 From Haltom City, Texas Currently Offline Reputation: 1 (100%) ![]() |
Three angle valve job; lap the valves in; check the tolerances on the camshafts journals, camshaft lobes, reshim the valves, replace the valve seals, check the valve guides; check the head for cracks and resurface if necessary
|
![]() ![]() |
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: August 22nd, 2025 - 10:47 AM |