6G Celicas Forums

Has anybody here ever mated a 3sge redtop to a e154f?

I have an AE95 alltrac sedan and I'd like to swap a really nice engine like the redtop into it. It has the 4afe which has a different bellhousing than the 3sge so I think my best option is to also swap in the e154f transmission. My intuition tells me that it is the same block as the 3sgte which would mate up perfectly with the e154f, but I'm not sure. I'm a little worried about interference with the transfer case.

Has anybody ever actually mated a BEAMS redtop to a Celica Alltrac transmission? Did it fit perfectly or did you have to grind some?

It will bolt on perfectly, but the BEAMS doesn't have the torque to comfortably move an AWD car. It has more torque than a 5S, but it doesn't make peak torque until around 6k rpm and below that, the 5S is much torquier. But then again maybe the AE95 is light enough to make up for the loss of the AWD drivetrain.

Try driving it with a 4afe.

Touché....

Now that I'm at home I have a little more time to respond properly to your comment about the 3sge not having enough power. As far as I can tell my car is comparable in weight to the 1998 celica gt. I don't know which model you have but the most reliable source I've seen on the celica weights is Toyotacelicas.com and it lists the gt 2-door liftback at 2580 lbs, gt 2-door coupe at 2,395 lbs, and the gt convertible at 2755 lbs. Here is the link.

http://www.toyotacelicas.com/information/years/1998.php

I'm very new to this forum, but I can't find the factory specs for your celicas anywhere. I can't believe they aren't stickied in your basic information section. You really should add that.

My corolla alltrac's spec weight is 2,650 lbs with front/rear at 1540/1110 lbs. Which is hovering right around what the celicas weigh. I never trust the factory numbers so I stopped by the local landscaper and put it on their scales. I was wondering about the front/rear weight distribution of my car so I took 3 measurements. To be able to have a consistent measurement for comparison later, I topped off the gas tank just before I weighed it. I took 3 measurements, front, total, and rear. The front was 1560 lbs, the rear was 1060 lbs, and the total 2620 lbs. So the front is 20 lbs heavier than spec and the rear is 50 lbs lighter. I think it showed the accuracy of the front/rear measurements since they added up exactly to the total. So basically, it came out to a 60/40 f/r weight distribution. FYI, at the time I weighed it, the car was bone stock with spare and jack and everything. Also the scales measured in 10lb increments.

However, you are right about the drag of the 4wd drivetrain. When I drive my VW CC it will coast forever, but in my corolla I can really feel the friction when I try to coast. After I get everything together and operating, I'm going to look seriously into lightening the drivetrain and reducing friction. I have researched a bit into this, but it is not top priority right now.

I see in your footer that you have a 1998 GT celica with a beams swap. Are you dissatisfied with it? I'm just asking because considering the weights of our cars, the pulling characteristics should be close. However, I'm sure mine won't pull quite as well as a celica because of the AWD friction, but close enough for comparison. Even as it is, the car is a lot of fun to drive. I'm not after a rocket, but I would like to add a respectable amount of acceleration to make it more fun. And the sound....oh yeahhh.

richee3 I have one more question for you. I see you have a beams swap so you obviously have experience with it. You say it will bolt on perfectly. Have you actually bolted the beams to a gt4 transmission with the transfer case on it? I'm wanting confirmation from somebody that has actually done it because that transfer case is huge and sometimes Toyota make the block slightly different on vehicles with 4wd. I know for a fact that the 4afe has a notch in the block on the alltrac to make room for the transfer case and the oil pan has a different shape. 4agze on alltracwagon.net has a 1mz from a 4wd highlander and he says he didn't have to grind off near as much as he did on his camry block to get it to clear the transfer case. If I have to grind the block, I may decide to go with the RAV4 transmission.

Like I said in the original post. I'm looking for confirmation from somebody that has literally put the 3sge and a gt4 transmission together to look for any interference.

You won't find many people who have, reason being.
People who have a E154f already have a 3S-GTE/AWD (GT4), in which case you'd need to find someone who has a beams turbo in a GT4, there is no member on here afaik with that.


The best info I know is, an old 6GC member czwalga, who successfully had a Gen 3 3S-GE into a USDM GT along with the E154f.
link to his project thread


From that I would then look at comparing the Gen 3 3S-GE to the beams to note any differences in terms of transfercase interference.

Hope that helps.




side note: correct, the info section on the main site is older and not as up to date as the forum info, though we still do not have Celica weights or dimensions.

The BEAMS Greytop came bolted up to an AWD transmission in the Caldina and Rav4's, so they'll bolt up just fine. I'll go into more details a little bit later today as time permits.

It will mate up just fine.

I have a beams in my awd rav4 with the stock rav e250f.
I plan on swapping an e154f because my stock tranny is dying.
Rav guys have used the e154f in the past, it's made to bolt up to a 3s (2.0) block.
No worries there.

As for the power, the beams is faster than the stock 3sfe that came with the rav. My rav is about 2600 lbs as well.
The beams is a fantastic motor and has torque in the high rpms. It doesn't have good torque to move the awd system below 4k.
If I had to do it all again I'm 50/50 with going with a beams in my Rav.
For the price I could have gone with a 4th gen 3sgte and had the power when I want it.

The only reason I use to rationalize the lower torque beams into the awd rav is it's a winter awd car. I want to have the traction in the snow, not spin the wheels with too much power.

Thanks Rusty. You just confirmed what I didn't want to know about the e154f and 3sge. here is a quote from czwalga from page 12 of his thread

"FYI, you do have the grind the block down on a 3sge to fit the e154f transmission. Was not real happy about having to do that again. It's a huge pain in the ass, if you've never done it before and dont know what needs to be taken off itll take several hours. Even this time after I know what needed to be done probably still took 2 hours with a regular angle grinder to notch it down and fit the transmission."
czwalga

I may go ahead and just grind it, but it makes me want to explore other options a little further.

As far as I know the Caldina was only available with a greytop in a automatic transmission. That's a total deal breaker for me. I'm not confident in my assumption but I'd guess the greytop rav4 is the same. The transfer case is much narrower on an auto transmission. It's easy to tell by googling a few pictures to see the difference.

I've been on alltracwagon.net for well over 2 years now and I've made friends with a guy named 4agze. He is a mechanic for a Toyota dealership in Arizona. I was just emailing him last night. he is in the process of putting a 1mz in his alltracwagon with a e154f/e250f hybrid transmission so he doesn't have to grind the block as much. I can't remember which parts of each transmission he is using at the moment. I'll have to reread the email. If you look at pictures of a e250f next to a e154f, you will notice the rav4 transfer case doesn't bulge as much toward the block as the gt4 transfer case.

The rav4 transmission and the gt4 transmission are not the same. the gt4 is much beefier and it is 40mm wider on the driver side to accomodate the beefier gears. To assume the e154f would drop in a Rav4 without modification would be a mistake.

Hmm I didn't think about the Rav4 beams having the AWD gearbox.

Greytop/redtop are essentially the same thing.
One was solely offered in auto where the other was offered in auto & manual. Engine internal wise they are the same, However the greytop has a watered down ECU tune & different extractors/b pipe's.


Internally of the transmission, the E15# gears are beefier(wider/bigger) than those of the E5# series. Though I know nothing about the E2## series with how they compare to the others.



Build sounds interesting to btw