6G Celicas Forums

Hmmm. It's now 11:50, and I've just returned from the bar. Kindly excuse any spelling miscakes and the general whimsical tone, and bear with me.

I have just return from what can be described as a genuine, honest blue collar bar. I have no issues with that at all. I chatted to several people, all of whom were decent human beings, and all of whom engaged in friendly banter on a range of subjects. And took the piss out of the accent.

I then met the old guy. I'm going to struggle to carry across the impact this man had on me in mere text, but I shall try.

Apparently, according to the history of old guy, the good old USA bailed europe out of the first and second world war, and without them we'd be under the jackboot. It is potentally an interesting discussion of alternative history, and I attempted to engage him as such.

Mistake number one.

The london bombings were done by Muslims, and are the beginnings of a Islamic/Christian war that will engulf the planet. When I pointed out that surely he must agree that they, at a stretch, were the result of extremist/fundamentalists who had mearly 'claimed' the banner of a religion, he stated that the claim was enough.

When I pointed out that the Oaklahoma bomb was the work of a white Christian male, and that Christian extremists shoot doctors and blow up clinics that perform legal abortions, he changed the subject.

He then proceeded to tell me that he'd served 20 years in the military (really, I'd never had guessed), that he was a Vietnam veteran and had been wounded in combat. He described the wounds in great detail. He had lost half a stomach, a length of intestine (it varied between 8 and 14 feet on each retelling of the tale) and had shrapnel in his heart that was still working its way through.

And that even at fifty four he would happily return to combat and "Kill as many of those towelhead bastards as possible".

I kid you not.

His parting comment was that he was one of only 27 servicemen to have received 4 purple hearts for injury in combat.

My parting comment was that in that case he should learn to duck a little better.


I'm sure that sober he's a decent upstanding citizen. But drunk, he came over as an ill educated aggressive zealot, and a scary one at that. Like most guys who have had a couple of beers, he was right, and any alternate point of view was wrong.

I don't know how much of his stance was ill-education, and how much was military brainwashing.

I walked home stone cold sober. I really hope this man was an oddity in this great country. I have a nasty feeling he might not have been.

Sorry. Not an amusing post this time.

Yer, i think every country has mis-informed zealots. Alot of Iraquis (spelling?) are probably very angry at the western world when they dont have the full details and alot of the Western world holds prejudice and anger towards Middle eastern countries but are also mis-informed.
The type of mis-information im talking about is the belief that many of each side hold towards the other. Many westerners just put all of the middle east down as "dirty, shooting, arabs", conversly there most probably is alot of middle eastern people who believe that the western world is only out to make money and destroy anything in its way. Its vicious stereotyping.
Each side has made bad decisions and cant say its the perfect "good" side; mainly because "good" is a matter of opinion.

There is much more to this than i can be bothered to cover, so ill end it there.

note: it wasnt my intention to offend anyone or to generalise westerners and middle-easterners. In fact its generalisation that annoys me. Once again no offence ment

It can be argued that the US did "bail" Europe out of WW2. Without the US involement, even before the declration of war in 1941, the allied forces of Eurpope may not have had the means to win the war. You can at least agree that without the entry of the US in WW2, the war would have gone one much longer. With this in mind, it has been shown that the Germans were very close to having a full fleet of jet powered fighters and bombers, even in our timeline with US involement. Along with that, they had a nuclear bomb program that was not paid as much attention in lue of jet engine technology. If the war went on longer and they were not under the pressure due to the combined British and US forces, all of those programs would have succeeded giving the Germans jet powered bombers to deliever nuclear bombs to London, Moscow, even New York with jet fighters to escort them. I think most people can agree that most of China and South East Asia would have fallen to the Japanese without US involement. But maybe you are only agruing for Europe.

I really cant say about WW1, as i am not as fluent with the history of that war.

As for the rest of his statements, every thing past "mistake number one," i cant disagree with him more. Acts of terrorism in which innocent human lives are disragarded are not the work of any orginized religion. In fact, the highest leaders of every orginized religion condems these acts; Buddhism, Christianity, Muslim, Jewdaism, etc... Every educated person in the US knows that these are not the acts or feelings of muslims in general, but of an extreme few who claim thier actions in the name of thier religion even though thier own religion denounces them openly.

sadly though, not every person in the US is educated and there are plently who feel as the man you met does. I do not believe that you will find any of these people on these boards, but they do exist. And not only here in the US, but around the world too. Ignorance does not just plauge the US, it is human.

In addition to this, the man you talked to was in a war, a very gruesome and needless war. From the fact that he has 4 purple hearts, means that he was in many battles in which many men died. He knows death by both seeing it in the faces of men he knew and bringing it to those he has killed. A past like that can leave you jaded and uninterested in the opinions of someone who knows nothing of what he has seen, the horrors or war, death and life in which you converse openly with him. Im not saying i agree with his opinions, far from it in fact. Im just saying give him a break. Hes old, drunk and his chest hurts from the shrapnel.

bah, i hate history...
i read orville's first paragraph and all of initial post...

craziness...
i just hate how many people hate the US...i love the place, but it's scary living in an area that you could get killed in just because someone else hates it for who-knows-what reason

Word.



Agreed, and something I would have enjoyed discussing.



A point very well made, and taken.
He was not as elequent as you.