6G Celicas Forums

Hello,

I'm considering (in the future) to put a 4AGE head on my 7AFE block and create a 7AGE.

But I'm wondering what i'm needing to make this work. I searched on Club4ag.com but can't find the right answer.

I don't look for mass hp increase but i hope i can get somewhere near 130-140 hp and even a bit better torque

This is what i know i should use:
1) the 4age head
2) 4age inlet manifold
3) 4age exhaust manifold
4) Porsche 914 timing belt
5) 7afe head gasket (maybe a TRD one?)
6) ....

Can i stay with my standard exhaust system or does it has to change?

And most important for me: Can i stay with the standard 7afe ECU so no new wiring has to be done?

Thanks!!

you'll definitely need a piggyback system hooked up to make everything work properly.
so yes you can stay with the 7afe ECU, but you'll need to wire in and tune the piggyback.

If your only looking to get around 130 - 140HP why not save yourself some grief and headache and just swap in a 5S? Just curious. I mean after you swap the head (including manifolds, sensors, wiring, etc)

i have to agree with this one. the amount of money you are going to spend on mickey mousing the hybrid, just get another engine thats proven to be better.

I will have to disagree with you guys. There aren't enough 7a builds on here. I would love to see one.
I know it's not common and the gains are minimal but when you get into the "throw a 5s in there" talk ,you get into the "might as well throw a 3sgte in there" talk as well. and then, you do what everyone else on here is doing. not knocking on 3sgte builds but,
I would do a build to be unique. Of course, if you want power then yes 3sgte all the way. (or 2jz heheheh)

I've kicked the idea around quite a bit myself, and while at the moment I'm planning to do a 3sgte swap a good while down the road, I'm heavily drawn to the "special snowflake" appeal of doing something a little further from the beaten track... (My best friend is always ribbing me about how my plans for this car change roughly every 5 minutes )

Take all of what I say with a pretty big grain of salt, because
1) I'm still pretty new at this (even though I did rebuild my 7afe, 1666 miles and going strong!)
2) I have never personally owned a 4age engine (that's a big one)
3) Having never owned a 4age, all of my data comes from The Internet (internet-sized grain of salt )

But disclaimers aside, here goes. This is everything I've dug up so far (at least all of it that's relevant to your questions).
If you take a look at the 4age engine, the distributor mounts up in basically the same spot on the head that the alternator mounts up on the 7afe...


I assume (without personally posessing a 4age) that you can't have both without modification. I figure using the default 4age alternator location is out, since the power steering on the 7afe takes up just about that whole side of the engine, as far as drive belts are concerned. So looking for a solution to this, I came across this thread over here on Club4AG... They were adding an SC12 supercharger to an AE86 Corolla, and needed to move the alternator to the driver side (RWD). They used an AW11 MR2 4agze alternator mount bracket. Again, not sure if it's even necessary, but it's hard to find documentation of 7afe-to-7age conversions... Most builds I find on various forums are 4age-to-7age.

Moving on to compression, people repeatedly claim that the combustion chamber size (in the head) of the 4age is A LOT bigger than the 7afe. I found some info on the 4age piston and head cc's HERE. Some more info on 7afe piston dish cc HERE. I used the information in those threads and wikipedia on THIS compression calculator, along with some common knowledge (which I hope to God is right, or I'm going back to the drawing board all over again ) to come up with the 7afe's combustion chamber volume. According to everything I've gleaned so far, 7afe head is 33cc, and 4age head is 36cc, 7afe pistons are -12cc (a dish), 7afe head gasket is 0.7mm compressed, 4age headgasket is 1.2mm compressed. So, using that calculator, changing ONLY the combustion chamber volume from the 7a's 33cc to the 4a's 36cc, your CR would drop from 9.5:1 to about 9.0:1. Unfortunately, I was completely unable to find any info on whether the wristpin sits at a different distance from the top of the piston on the 7a versus the 4a... you know, in case you were considering using 4age pistons. Again, DISCLAIMER! I got all this from the internet! Also, It's worth noting that I am unaware of exactly what you can do before you end up with an interference engine. IIRC, the 4age is natively non-interference (as is the 7a), but it's worth thinking about.

And about the ECU, I really have no clue about wiring it to make it work with the 7afe ECU. I'm in the dark on this one as well. Also, depending on which 4age head you use, I don't know how you'd handle the T-VIS (bigport heads), or VVT (either of the 20-valve heads).



Remember, I'm no expert! It's pretty likely that I, or any of the many people whose data I used, got something wrong somewhere!

Pfff...as i read here it's much more difficult then i thought

Then I might be better saving money and buy a T23 VVTL-i in a few years

you cant get it to work with the 7A ECU. if you are going to use the 4A-GE head you have to use the 4A ECU. it will control the sensors and distributor on the head. its just like trying to run a 3S-GTE on a 5S ECU. you just cant do it.

dont get me wrong, i love innovation and projects like this. i just dont see the justification for the gains. you are going to spend at least 2 grand in this project. with 2 grand you can very easily have a sweet V6 swap. and yes i been pushing the V6 alot lately just because its a cheaper engine thats NA and makes just as much power as the 3S-GTE

Just out of curiousity... what's the gas mileage on the v6 vs 3sgte? I know we cant go off of the specs of which car it came out of because as I am familiar with hondas...

A gsr swapped civic will get better mpg than a gsr itself. Less weight hauling.

Finally something I can halfway answer. The 5-speed Camry Solara with the 1MZ-FE V6 got 21/28 with a curb weight of 3,263 pounds. The Turbo MR2 with the 3S-GTE got 20/27 on premium fuel with a curb weight of 2,888 pounds. They say for every 100 pounds that's 2% to fuel economy. Let's assume a V6 swapped GT would weigh in at 2,550(Stock it weighs 2,580 and the 1MZ-FE weighs less than the 5S-FE) so that's a weight savings of over 700 pounds. So that should make for a 14% increase in fuel economy. In theory a V6 Celica should get 24/32. Which is sad because the stock GT with a 5S-FE got 22/28 with 65 less hp. Even if you got the Solara's mpg, which you'd get better, that's still a loss of 1 mpg city for an extra 65 hp. Personally it's my choice for when I swap, and am looking for a rear ended Camry/Solara now. Cheaper than a 3S-GTE, better fuel efficiency, can get all the parts for local parts house, no turbo lag, etc... That and pulling up to a Honda Civic and revving up your V6, must be a great feeling. For me it's the best option.

...And THIS is why my plans for my car change every 5 minutes. Hell, with a 1mz in a 2600 lb. car, I might have a faster car than my buddy's 2004 Dodge Stratus R/T 3.0, which is 3250 lbs.... It'd be a lot closer, for sure!

IT WOULD BE. Both cars have the same horsepower and the Stratus weighs 600-700 pounds more. Not to mention the Celica's superior suspension and aerodynamics. That and it's a Dodge with a Mitsubishi engine. In fact a de-tuned version of the engine that was in my 3000GT, which I know for a fact is garbage.

This post has been edited by Box: Sep 8, 2012 - 2:03 PM

good answer Box. you nailed it! now since you are in AL, you should seriously consider a 3MZ. if you dont want to do the DBW extra stuff, then do a 3MZ with VVTI 1MZ heads and electronics. you keep the throttle cable, get the dual throttle bodies, and you will get the HP of a 3MZ. once i get SMOG certified by the NAZIs in CA, i will do this upgrade

Hmm, very tempting. But I was wanting to get a parts car just to make everything easier. That way the only thing I'd have to find elsewhere would be the half shafts and a few other things. Cheaper too being that you can get a complete car for not much more, if not less, than the engine alone. Now just finding a rear ended Camry/Solara with the 5 speed and V6 is the hard part.

just do what i did. search car-part.com and find the parts. i was able to find both the 3MZ engine and a 5speed within 75 miles. i got both for about 1000 bucks and the engine came with the harness and ECU complete

Okie. Main concern was finding an engine with the ECU and harness.

Another thing to consider would be how the suspension will be set up. More front end weight means u need better front end suspension. Or else on a hard brake... wouldn't the car nose dive pretty bad?

I know j32a swapped civic nose dive crazy bad from that v6. But then again its a civic lol

The V6 weighs less than the I4, so that's not an issue.

^^^ yep.

the picture of the 4age you posted is a rear drive 4age, not a front drive 4age. yes, engine ancillarys will be mounted in totally different places