HKS GD Pro Twin Clutch Type K, Does anybody using it??? Options

[Magic]

I`m planning soon to replace my Clutch(Disk,Cover and Flywheel) and i found a very nice kit for my ST-205 from HKS "GD Pro Twin Clutch Type K".
Is somebody using it???ANy comments?

[Lar-]

I've using the GD Pro Twin Plate on my ST205 for 6 months now.
So far so good. A little bit noisy I would say, but I guess it's natural for any twin plate clutch.

The feeling during every gear change is very solid especially when you are slamming down the 3rd into 4th.

Also, I have no problem "licking" the clutch to take the car off on any slop or a bridge.

[Magic]

Lar- Thanks a lot for your reply,I check out your profile your car looks fantastic about the clutch now did you install it with the flywheel???Did you install also Quickshift???how do you feel it at downshift???Also did you notice any loss on lunch???

Thank you

[Lar-]

Yes, I got the light weight flywheel(it comes with a full kit) as well.

I didn't install the quick shift. I wanted to though, but my mechanic said that the quick shift for my ST-205 would be a waste of money as the difference in the stroke is not that greatly noticeable compared to the standard shifter.
I am talking about TRD's short shifter here.

I don't know about C's short shifter, but I heard that it is solid and sharp.

Feeling at downshift??? ==> Very smooth(can be seamsless if you are able to sync the clutch paddle with the gas paddle) and solid.
Very very little RPM "pick up lag" during high RPM gear shifting comparing to the stock clutch kit... Stock Clutch tends to "slip" during high RPM gear shifting.

Any loss on launch?? ==> NO!! and if your car is still running with the stock 16" wheels. A "Road Bullet" I would say.

I am very happy with my GD Pro kit...

[Magic]

Lar- thanks again.
I`m really thinking about it and i make a research between HKS GD Pro,Cusco and TRD Clutch and i think i`ll go with the HKS GD:)
Do you remember how much did cost to you the HKS GD Pro full kit??(including Flywheel) also how much do they charge at your country for installation??Just to compare nothing more.
I`m also thinking to buy the quickshift(TRD) but not now cuz i want to see how much difference i will see with my shifts after the installation of the Clutch.

[Lar-]

I think you can leave the TRD clutch out because it's only single plate and again the performance is only a slight different from the standard clutch.
For me, TRD is always the last choice for any performance parts.

Another 2 brands that you should look at is the OS Giken Twin Plate and the Ogura Twin Plate. These 2 brands provide high performance and reliable clutch kit as well.

I paid $1,875(Aprox.) for the full kit.

[Magic]

Hello Lar-!!!
Thanks again for the information i will make my research about OS GIKEN and Ogura Clutches.
You purchase the HKS from a local dealer or from Online Shop?

[Lar-]

Hello Magic...
You got one very neat looking, especially the engine, GT-4 as well!!!

I bought it from the HKS local dealer as I couldn't find any online.

Many times that I envy those Supra users, they have a lot of nice.. nice.. high performance toys to play with.

Our GT-4s high performance parts are more like specialties... rare&high priced:(

[Magic]

Lar-

I like we are talking about a common issue!!!:)
I make my research so i`m between 3 clutches now!!

First one is ACT Single Clutch with Jun Light Flywheel(Not UltraLight).
Second is OGURA ORC409 Single Plate.
Third OSGIKEN R2CD Twin Plate.

I must said that i`m in love with the HKS GD Pro Twin:) but i`m running with stock internals and stock turbo and for the moment isnt a good choice.

Now about Prices look what i found:

ACT Single Clutch Kit 613.00 USD
JUN Flywheel Light 409.00 USD
OSGIKEN R2CD Twin Plate Kit (Flywheel Included) 1.058 USD
OGURA ORC409 Single Plate Kit (Flywheel Included) 1.064 USD

What I`m really thinking is not to install Flywheel cuz i drove Tufy`s car(check his profile in 6gc.net under GT4) and i was not happy with it in low RPM and i think its a matter of Flywheel cuz its too light that cuz loss of torque,what do you think?

Thanks

Magic

[drdos]

lol, danm you gt4 owner's

[Magic]

Whatz Wrong drdos???

[Lar-]

Hi Magic,

If you have no future plans for your engine to go over 350hp, I suggest that a Single Plate Clutch kit would suffice your need. You will under utilize the Twin Plate Clutch potential and it's a waste of money as well.

Also, a single plate clutch is easier to "drive" with. You will not have to adjust your clutch paddle releasing habit.

I have to adjust mine for quite sometime to get the right timing. I stalled my car a few times at the beginning as well... haa.. haaa.. but after a while when I got used to and "learned" the clutch, it's a "whow!!" experience. It's like I'm driving a different car.

I don't feel any "loss of torque" during the low rpm with the GD pro. Most "come with the kit" flywheels are not as light as those flywheels that are being sold seperately, so don't worry. This would be one of the reasons why I want recommend you to get the clutch kit that includes the flywheel.

Something about flywheel: Flywheel is like an enery storing(eating) wheel. A heavier flywheel would store more energy(created by the engine), thus releasing or flowing less energy(created by the engine) to the drivetrains. Less energy to the drivetrains means less hp to the wheels.

A lighter flywheel would be vice versa.
=> storing less energy.
=> therefore, releasing or passing more energy to the drivetrains...
=> more hp goes to the wheels.


As for your new 3 choices;
I would choose the Ogura Single Plate.

However, if you still insist on getting a Twin Plate then I would suggest you take a look at 2 more choices.
1. The Cusco Twin Disks Clutch.
2. The ATS Twin Disks Clutch.

I noticed that you you want a high performance and a "solid" clutch gripping feeling, but yet you still want to maintain that easy ease driving pleasure.

I suggested those 1. and 2. because the friction disks are both carbon faced(mixed) instead of copper(mixed).
Carbon mixed disks will allow a much easier "slipping" or "licking" the clutch during stop-go traffic or on slop launching.

Please do not rush to spend $1,000 away. Take your time to select what's best suited your need.

[Magic]

Hello Lar-

I dont plan for the moment to run above 350HP so the single on its the correct move.
A friend of me who has MR-2 3SGTE he is running with 500HP.He is using internals(Jun camshafts,pistons,rods,Greddy TD06 etc) he is just running with ACT single clutch!!!!!!
I asked him and he said that he is really happy with it and his clutch is running more than 35000kms!!!!!
I`m thinking to go for it.
I think your idea for a clutch kit that includes flywheel its correct cuz i dont think that its a good idea using a brand of clutch with different brand of flywheel.
I'm wondering about Cusco Clutches,many people told me that they are not reliable what did you hear about them?
Also Cusco Clutches are very cheap here....hmmmm...tell me what you think.


Thanks

Magic

[Lar-]

Hi Magic...

Please consider.. we are running on all 4 not just 2 wheels....

Sorry my man... I have to leave right now...
I will get back to you soon ok...

Cheers...

[Magic]

Hey Lar-

This is right we are running on all 4!!!
I will not install the flywheel:( so i`m really thinkin of ordering the ACT (organic) Single Clutch with TRD QuickShift:) cuz i really wnat to improve some things about gears shifting!!!!!
Hey do you got a hotmail account on MSN messenger?

Something out of subject i`m planning to get Endless Break pads for my car,what do you think about them?

[Lar-]

Hi Magic....

If you have chosen what suits your need then... go for it!!!

I don't use the msn messenger, sorry my man...

About Endless Brake Pads... Go for it!!! It won't dissapoint you.
You can just use the NA-S grade, it's more than enough for street use.

The CCM grade is superb, but it will "eat" up your disk brake rotor surface pretty harsh. Also you have to WARM the brake pads up before you can do any hard braking, this will pose quite a problem(slipping or fading) during in the morning, on a cold night, and driving in the rain. CCM is more suitable for circuit racing and not street use.
Hope this helps....

Cheers...

[Magic]

Hey Lar-!!!

Where you been m8?
Well i have decide about my clutch,it will be ACT!!!!I`m not going to install Flywheel.I also order the trd quickshift!!
I will have it next week installed on my babe so i`ll let you know how i feel it(i know i need time for it).
Yes i also bought braking pads from Endeless(front-rear)!!!!!They look fantastic!I`m going to install them with my clutch.
Man here they asking for Labour 300USD just for the clutch!!!WOW!!!
You know that you already help me very much(Thanx).

[fastgt]

300? for labor? ...do it yourself its easy as pie well not pie...more like rough steak but doable nevertheless

This post has been edited by fastgt: May 27, 2004 - 12:29 PM

[Magic]

Yes its very expensive!!!!My engineer said that he will do it for me for 160USD which i think its a very good price but i also asked other guys and the price they are charging its 300USD!!!!!F**!! The clutch will cost less at the end of the story!!!

[Lar-]

Hi Magic....

I was called up to a metting in a sudden...

Yes... yes... please let me know how you feel about the new clutch...
But.. hey.. please don't forget to run-in your new clutch for the first 100km(to be safe). Be patient, don't go "slam&bang" your new clutch when you take your car freshly out of the garage. This is to let the new clutch disk to make a full surface contact with the flywheel.

This goes as well for your new brake pads.
If you had changed your brake pads previously, you would had noticed that the surface of the newly changed brake pads and the disk brake rotor would not be in full surface contact for the first few days.

A little run-in would help you get the highest performance.

Cheers....

[Lar-]

Yeah... 160USD would be a much more listenable price...

300USD... is like "you better chop my head off instead"... it's bloody, man.. 300USD!!!!!

[Magic]

Lar-!!!!

I bought (ACT CLUTCH/Endelsee braking pads) them and next week they are gonna be installed on my babe!!!!Yes i will give them some time and not pust it like maniac:).
Yes the installation here is "killinig you" cuz the engineers here they think that they are the only "engineers left on the planet earth" thats why they giving a price without 2nd though!!!!!
I also bought HKS SSQBOV!!!!!Was 2nd hand by a friend of my that he crashed his WRX STI!!!!What do you think about the KHS SSQBOV??I used to have it actually on my previous car(Impreza WRX) and was really nice.
What are you using?

[Lar-]

Hi Magic...

I'm using the HKS BOV as well. It responds to your gas paddle better than other BOV brands.

I really love the "fuzee... fuzzeee..." sound....
Blitz Super Sound is not bad too, but the sound is too "Macho" for me.

[Magic]

Hey Lar-!!!

I installed my Clutch(Finally)!!!!
I`m very happy with it,its much better than the stock one i used before,its harder to push the pedal but the shifting its very easy now:)
My engineer is an Asshole:) I went there and he told me that the clutch was not ok cuz you have to push the pedal at the end to catch(work).I went a drive to check it and was true then he called a friend of him and he told him that under the clutch pedal there is an adjustment that he must do!!!!!!!!! He did it and the clutch now is working fine.
Something strange that i noticed and i want to ask you is that when i`m ready for lounch,at the point that i`m leaving my foot of the clutch the car is shaking a little bid just at the beginning and the same happens with my reverse,is that normal??I`m not using 4 pad or 6 pad disc im using organic.Everything else its great:)
I`m very ugry cuz he didnt install my brake pads and my blow-off cuz he didnt have time!!!My car was 2 days there for a CLUTCH INSTALLATION!!!!!GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!And finally the price for labour is 240USD!!!!!!F*** HIM he was his last one:)I dont know if he will see me again.

[spunky393]

a cluth installation normally takes 2 days. Not enough gas in your take offs will shake the car, common sense. And Lar, would you suggest the flywheel and clutch kit (probably act considring magic likes is so much) for my fwd GT? 300 is a normal price, so don't get to mad about it, haha. Other than the fact he told you that first price.

[Magic]

spunky393 I`m mad cuz first he said to me a price and later he ask for more anyway this is not professional and i dont like it.Also i`m comparing my clutch now with the previous one...i dont thinks its about less gas:) anyway i need some time to figure it out!:)
Thanks for the post:)
Also if it takes 2 days(full working) for a clutch replacement from a guy that he already install clutches for so many 4WD cars and especially GT-4 then for me its normal to assembly a pc in 2 days(we talking here for 2 hours work).

[Lar-]

Hi Magic...

It's good that you are happy with the new clutch...

It's not not enough gas during take off. The shaking effect is normal for newly installed clutch disk. The new clutch disk surface is still not making a full surface contact with the flywheel surface yet. "Run-in" your clutch for a while, the shaking should become less.
Please be patient, don't do any fast launching for now.

If after... say... about 500km and the shaking effect still won't stop.... then you will have to resurface your flywheel.

Clutch disk and Flywheel is just similar to Brake pads and Disk Brake Rotor.
Most of the time, the Disk Brake Rotor would have to be resurfaced when changing in a new set of Brake Pads. This is just to ensure a FULL(maximum performance) surface contact between the Pads and the Rotors.

Anyway, we can worry about that later. For now, it's normal.

[Lar-]

Hi Spunky393,

About the Flywheel... If you ask me is it neccessary?? I would say no...

FWD already has a direct enery transfer from the engine to both front wheels. It's not like RWD or AWD where some energy would be wasted along the middle drivetrain and the rear axle.

However, if you want to know what a lightweight flywheel feels like then by all means.... try it.

The noticeable advantage of a lightweight flywheel is the RPM would shoot up faster than the stock flywheel. In the same lenght of time, your car goes faster.

The disadvantage would be vise versa.... The RPM would also drop faster as well.
You would have to do a few times more gear shifting than usual.

Are you a "High RPM" driver ?? At what RPM do you normally shift a gear ??

[Magic]

Yes Lar- we should wait and see what is happening with it:) But 500kms sounds very long!!!Hahahahaha
I`m watching your engine photo MAN!!!!F*****!!!!!S*****!!!!D****!!!!!!
Hahahahaha
Its great:)
I bought the Endless brake pads btw and also the HKS SSQBOV but i`m looking for a new engineer to install them for me:)Also I order Yokohama Advan Neova Tyres for my car,do you know them??The size i order is 235/40/R17
I will have them in one month:)
What is worrying me is that i need a front lip for my car and i found that Eurou has one but i dont know the price of it.What do you think about the C-one lip for original GT4 bumper?Do you like it?



Thanks for the chat

[spunky393]

-Lar

So you're saying, the flywheel would be better for drag racing? I do shift fairly high, when i'm just driving around, i still love to feel the power of my car, so i'll take it to 4 grand if not higher sometimes. Dragging, my engine hits peak about 5300, and i shift fast, very fast. I hope that answers your question, and you're able to tell me more.

-Magic
personally, i love the C-one lip, but that's my opinion.

[Lar-]

Hi Magic....

Hey.. 500km is not that far...

Advan Neova is the top grade tyre for Yokohama. It is a soft compound tyre.
The grip will be great, but will also wear out faster. I think you can check the ratings on TireRack.

C-One front Lip.... Absolutely agreed with Spunky393. I love it too!!!

[Lar-]

Hi Spunky393...

Light flywheel is not only for racing, it can be street used for a little more enjoyment as well. I don't do car racing, by the way. I just love to enjoy my everyday drive.

For you, who like to shift at high RPM, it would be a nice toy to experience.

A friend of mine installed a light weight flywheel to his 3S-GE and said it was useless and a waste of money...
His gear shifting habbit is less than 4000 RPM !!! So, the need to fly RPM up is not there....

If you love riding on high RPM and fast shifting, then a good aftermarket clutch set + flywheel would provide great fun.

For me, my twin clutch is my everyday enjoyment. I would never go back to stock clutch and flywheel.

[Magic]

Lar- and spunky393

Guys i`m talking about this front clip,my car is black..........



I`m checking now the TireRack but i have already order them

[spunky393]

Hi Magic,

That front lip is great, i wouldn't mind it at all, around here we don't exactly have the best ground clearance. I like it, go for it Magic.

[Lar-]

Yeah... it's beautiful.

Can you believe it, I simply can't find anyone who can order C-One parts for me.
I really don't know why it is so difficult!!!

There are a few C-One parts that I would really like to get hold of.

[Magic]

spunky393

Thanks i think i`ll go for it:) It should be nice on Black GT4:)Havent seen it but i think it will be nice besides i dont have too many to choose:(

Lar-

Tell me and i can get the C-one parts and ship them for you:)
With the clutch i`m still waitin but i think maybe is something wrong with the installation can sometimes when i shift a little fast "sometimes" i smell the clutch smell.........you think that it needs time???

[Lar-]

NO!!! Your clutch doesn't need anymore time. Your clutch needs to be rechecked.
I think your clutch disk surface has already burnt a little.
For newly installed clutch... a little shaking is ok, but not smell.
Don't wait too long to have your mechanic recheck your clutch.

Burnt clutch = Slipped clutch.


Thank you so much for offering to help me order and ship the C-One parts. I really appreciate your kind gesture.
I think you can just inform me where can I order or who can I talk to about getting the C-One parts and I can take it from there.
I really don't want to bother you with all the ordering and shipping stuff.

[Magic]

Lar-

Thank you for your help.
What do you mean "Slipped clutch"???You mean my clutch disc left of the place??
The truth is that i smell it 1-2 times while i was driving it.
I will find another mechanic to check my clutch cuz this one its out of subject.
About the C-one parts email me at magikos7@hotmail.com and i can give you details from a guy that i think he can help you.

[Lar-]

Hi Magic...

Sorry to confuse you. I was meaning "slippery clutch".

You won't feel the slippery effect right now as your clutch disc is still new, but if you continue to drive with your clutch smelling like this, soon you will see that when you change a gear and rev up.... your car would not gain speed as fast as usual.

I will e-mail you. Thank you so much.

[Magic]

Hey Lar-

The truth is that i didnt ride my car more than 40kms since i replaced my clutch!!!
Hmmm I will drive it a little more and i let u know.
I asked a lot of guys about the clutch and they all have the same symptoms!!!!Hmmmm maybe its my idea:)
Feel free to email to me:)

[Lar-]

Hi Magic...

Hmmm... Smell coming from clutch or brakes is always not a good thing.
Please keep me posted about your clutch...

[Magic]

Lar-

I ll keep you inform about my clutch:)
I`v seen a post later about engine failures and i want to ask you something,i`m running my car 1.1 bar what do you think??its safe for stock internals??And with my upgrades?Any recommended upgrade for this kind of boost?

Thnx pal

[Lar-]

Hi Magic...

I discussed your clutch situation with my mechanic. He said that it's ok for newly installed clutch to smell a couple of times or for a very short period of time. He also advise not to do any hard launching for the moment.
Be gentle to your clutch for a while ok....

The max claimed boost for our engine(stock internals) is 1.16 bar. You can do 1.1bar, but don't hold it for too long.
Can your boost comtroller be set for Lo boost and Hi boost ??

For myself, I only set 0.8bar Lo boost and 1.0bar Hi boost. I really don't want to stress the engine too much.

By the way, what are your upgrades??
Also. can your TTE ECU be remapped or reprogramed again??

Just remember these basic elements for power;
Air <-> Fuel <-> Fire... They have to go along side one another. You can't just change any one of them and hope for more power.

Cheers....

[Magic]

Lar-

Thank you for asking your mechanic about my clutch!!!so we are at normal levels!!!!:)GREAT!!!!
I`m running 1.1 bar but not for long!!!
Yes my boost control has lo and high boost but i`m confused about it,can you help(again??)..hehehehe I`m very happy with the boost levels but for the moment.
Ehmmmm my upgrades are just the basics(Intake,exhaust,downpipe,sparkplug,boost controller,ECU)....
I think it can be remmaped the TTE ECU but i`m not happy with it,i`m looking for something really good,any suggestions about ECU?I`m thinking about JUN cuz Mr.Koyama is coming very often in Cyprus. Koyama(JUN Tuner)


Thanks

[Lar-]

You can try playing with the Lo Hi boost setting functions. It's quite simple.

Select Lo mode then set the amount of boost that you want, for me it's 0.8bar.
Select Hi mode then set the max boost that you want, you can input 1.1bar.

When you are in Lo mode, the max boost you will get is 0.8bar. You can use Lo while you're crusing or driving in the city. This helps the engine to relax a bit.

You can switch to Hi mode(1.1bar) when you are on an open road and want more kicks from the engine or when there a honda reving beside you... haa.. haaa..

There are a lot of Stand Alone ECUs that you can play with.
A few brands that I can think of right now.....
MoTec, HKS F-ConV Pro, Haltec, Autronic, Apexi Power FC.....

Apart from any good ECU is a good Tuner. If you can get hold of Koyama to tune your GT-4 for you, this would be superb!!!! I think will use the HKS F-ConV Pro on your GT-4.

One suggestion....
If you really want Koyama to tune your car, get ready to upgrade your engine internals. It wouldn't worth the money and time if Koyama would tune max boost your car to only 1.2bar. Your internals should at least be ready for a 1.5bar or 1.8bar even.

Cheers...

[Magic]

Lar-

Thank you for that time you spending on me!!!!
Thank you for the information about the Boost control,i will play with it later:)
If i am running without ECU just the boost controller what is safe to run??What boost?Cuz NOW i`m running with stock ECU.

I think Koyama will come again at the end of the year,far away but i think they can remapped my ECU with JUN Setup and send it to me and when Koyama come back he will make the "fine tuning".

The truth is that with 1.1 bar i`m VERY HAPPY!!!I like the boost and especially for daily driving i dont think that i need something more than that for the moment so i want to be safe on 1.1 bar.Do you know about the ERL Water System??

Thanks

[Lar-]

Hello Magic....

How's the Lo Hi boost setting.... ??

You can do your 1.1bar boosting with the stock ECU... no problem with fuel cuts.
What happen to your TTE ECU ?? You sent it for remapping already ??

Do you mean ERL water injection system ?? Honestly, I not sure if you really need one. I am always against having water going into the combustion system.

Do you have any "Engine Knocking" problem??
I don't think your intake air temperature is that high(hot) to the point where you need to cool it.

What's the weather temperature in Cyprus ?? Is it hot over there ??
The average temperature in my country is 34 - 37 degree Cel or 93.2 - 98.6 Far.

Alternative choices to ERL water injection system...
1. Swap to FMIC.
2. Go for Nos.

[Magic]

Lar-!!

I put the low boost 0.8 and the hi boost 1.1 What do you think??Its safe on stock ECU and stock internals?
For the moment i`m running with stock ECU i will send TTE to HELL i will tell you the reasons later but TTE its not in my car and i`m running for now on with stock ECU.I`m really thinking of MR.koyama(JUN ECU) but i dont want to upgrade my internals for the moment (money) but i`m thinking to get something that i can use later with the internals upgrade:)

Our temperature during the summer season is 38-42 Cel for the moment is 30!!!
I dont think about the intercooler for the moment cuz i`v seen GT4 with stock Chargecooler to run more than 400hp!!!
NOS its too far:)

[Lar-]

Hi Magic...

Reduce the Hi boost to just 1.0bar, just be on the safe side.
1.1bar is quite marginal although Toyota claimed that the internals can hold up tp 1.16bar(max boost).

Hey.. It's like burning over there, man... 38 - 42 Cel !!!!

By the way, could tell me more about the Stock ChargeCooler??
I read about it quite sometime ago, but I'm still not fully sure how ChargeCooler works. Thanx...

[Magic]

Hello Lar-

Actually i`m driving most of the time on low-boost now but i will reduce the boost to 1.0 bar.

Yes its really hot here during the summer

About the Chargecooler Toyota decide to use the chargecooler cuz of the high temperature at many countries that they using hosting the WRC.The chargercooler is an air-to-water intercooler that is using cold water pumping it from a separate unit and charge the engine with cold air.From that its easy to understand the choice of Toyota to stay with chargecooler cuz if they want to having all the time cold air for the engine they only have to replace the hot water from the water supply unit(like radiator) or with some liquids that they can stand to hot climates.
The chargercooler has many advantages like install it anywhere you want in the engine(not like Intercoolers that they must be in front of the car to have direct air from the outside).
That’s a reason that i’m not thinking for the Intercooler cuz i`v seen many GT4s running on stock chargercooler for more than 400hp!!!!

If you need more information about how the chargecooler works i have many good articles if you want to have a look on them, just let me know:)

[neoklis]

Hey Mike,

Good info. All this time i was hearing people telling me that the chargecooler of the Celi is useless and i should put a fmic. Now that i know i will just disregard them as i understand they are ricers and like the fmic because it looks good.

btw, if we remove the insulation and things are a bit cooler in the engine bay, does this mean that the chargecooler will also be cooler and will this improve power?
what do you think?

[Magic]

Neoklis:)

Of course the FMIC looks great on every racing car but you dont need it for the moment,you have to go for BIG Upgrades(Bigger Turbines) to get FMIC.
We have few GT4 from the club that they removed the insulation and i think its better to remove it during the summer season but i think our hood and the bumper help a lot about the incoming air,you think we should try it???

[tufy]

i cannot imagine hot !!! air escaping throught my gt four s opened bonnet vent to be trapped under bonnet. specially its bigger proplem when running in city with low speed.
and... with removed insulation turbo & and bov sounds much nicer

This post has been edited by tufy: Jun 11, 2004 - 5:57 AM

[neoklis]

[Magic]

Neoklis,

Try it and let me know ok?

[Magic]

Neoklis,

I dont care about the sound really i want to know what is going with the performance:)

[Lar-]

Hi Magic, Neoklis and Tufy...

I had my insulation removed a long time ago and the engine ventilation really improved a lot....
Our hood grill is directly above the turbo and exhaust header, hot air always rises.
Without the insulation; the very hot air, heated by the exhaust header and turbo, would directly escape upwards through the top grill.
This is actually great for driving in the city with slow traffic. Your engine compartment would be a lot less heat soaked.

Magic... It would be a great info if I can take a look at the ChargedCooler articles..
Thanx...

[Magic]

Lar-!!!

My car is in the Paint Shop,for painting the side skirts again and i will ask from the guy to remove the insulation and i`ll tell you about it,how it feels.
Neoklis did you remove it??
I`ll check for the articles about the chargecooler on my pc at work and send them to you with email.
Lar- any new upgrades for your car?What are you thinking next??
Did you had a Dyno?

[Wolf_tm]

Feeling at downshift??? ==> Very smooth(can be seamsless if you are able to sync the clutch paddle with the gas paddle) and solid.

Hi Lar-,


could you please explain me how is your downshifting on short gears ?

I have the same clutch you have, upshifting is quite ok...
but I'm getting very harsh disengagement and loud clunking on downshifting on low gears....

Thank you, bye.

[Lar-]

but I'm getting very harsh disengagement and loud clunking on downshifting on low gears....

Hi Wolf_tm....

I used to have the same problem as you... harsh disengagement and krrrrrr... krrrrrr....
2 things that you have to look....

1. Worn-out gear synchromeshes. Mine were worn-out pretty bad.
2. Gear lines. There are 2 gear lines, one for upshifting and one for downshifting. Please check both lines if they are still in good long-term working condition.

Please don't trust my answer just yet as I am not sitting right next to you while your gear problem occured.
I can be wrong. Try to get a 2nd or a 3rd opinion for confirmation ok.


Cheers,
+: Lar' :+

[Wolf_tm]

Hi Wolf_tm....

I used to have the same problem as you... harsh disengagement and krrrrrr... krrrrrr....
2 things that you have to look....

1. Worn-out gear synchromeshes. Mine were worn-out pretty bad.
2. Gear lines. There are 2 gear lines, one for upshifting and one for downshifting. Please check both lines if they are still in good long-term working condition.

Please don't trust my answer just yet as I am not sitting right next to you while your gear problem occured.
I can be wrong. Try to get a 2nd or a 3rd opinion for confirmation ok.

Hi Lar,

maybe I didn't explain correctly...

I'm not having a gear problem, I'm quite sure, I personally rebuilt my gearbox, and I'm not getting noises on changing gears...

when I told you harsh disengagement, I was talking about clutch disengagement, that is to say when you press the clutch pedal ( engage ), change the gear, and then release the pedal ( disengage ).

When you upshift, fw is making more rpm than the clutch plates, this is why the engine turns rearward on the supports;
but when you are downshifting and releasing the clutch pedal, fw is making less rpm than the clutch plates ( and in fact you could see the engine rotate forward on the supports ).

So when I downshift the gears I have not one problem, but when after that I even release the clutch pedal, I'm getting instant disengagement ( even if I'm releasing the pedal ssssllllllooooooowwwwwllllyyyyy ), harsh clunk and strong hit on the car.

I already checked for the exhaust touching somewhere in the crossmember zone, and it isn't.
Moreover I'm getting this noise from the clutch zone.

That's why I'd like to know from you, as the only one person over me using that clutch!, how are your feelings when you downshift and then release the pedal.

PS: there is not a cable for upshifting and one for downshifting: one moves the gear leverage forward/rearward, and the other one left/right, so you use all the two lines for up and down shifting.

Thakn you, bye.

[Lar-]

Hi Wolf_tm....

I see... I see... I think I understand what you are trying to say.

After reading... ", but when after that I even release the clutch pedal, I'm getting instant disengagement".
The first thing that pops up is your clutch pedal.

Ok... Try this, drive your car to 3rd gear@3000rpm and hold it then downshift to 2nd gear without releasing your gas pedal.
If your harsh clunk and strong hit on the car is gone then you can just adjust your clutch pedal to have a longer disengagement distant.

When you had your GD newly installed, did you have your clutch pedal adjusted for a longer disengagement distant as well??

When I had my GD newly installed, I had to adjust my clutch pedal a few times to get my comfortable disengagement distant to sync with my right foot.


Anyway, if my suggestion does not work....... . Well.. We've figure something out ok.


Cheers,
+: Lar' :+

[Wolf_tm]

.

Ok... Try this, drive your car to 3rd gear@3000rpm and hold it then downshift to 2nd gear without releasing your gas pedal.
If your harsh clunk and strong hit on the car is gone then you can just adjust your clutch pedal to have a longer disengagement distant.

I just checked the pedal, and I already have the leverage to be the longest possible...

I changed the oil already two times, looking for bubbles in the circuit.

I'm going to think I could have assembled it in the wrong way... every piece of the clutch is one way, you could not assemble it in the wrong way... except one... the spacer that stays between the two disks:
you could mount it with the spring upward or downward... and the manual doesn't talk about it...

No no.... but looking at the manual, the top spacer has the spring downward, so I mounted the middle spacer with the spring downward too... then I think the problem is not here...

Thank you, bye

[Lar-]

Hi Wolf_tm...

How long have you been using your GD clutch??


Cheers,
+: Lar' :+

[Wolf_tm]

Hi Wolf_tm...

How long have you been using your GD clutch??


Cheers,
+: Lar' :+

My engine is new, and I'm making the running-in... the clutch has around 300 kms...
did you have the same problems when it was new ?

I'm going to think it could even be an engine bushing problem...
upshifting and releasing the clutch, the engine turns backward, but downshifting and releasing, the engine moves forward:
the front engine bushing it's new, but it could be possible that I gave it not enough preload ( there is a "buttonhole" on the front bushing support, and an arrow on it tells you to push up the engine and then tighten the bushing bolt )

Bye !

[Lar-]

Hi Wolf_tm....

I had discussed your clutch problem with my mechanic friend.
He said that there is no problem with the clutch.
You had change the clutch fluid twice and there are no bubbles(I assumed) in the system.
Therefore, your clutch master cylinder is fine so your clutch pedal would still give precise engagement and disengagement motion.
His last opinion was maybe you are still new to engage and disengage the twin plate clutch and need more time sync the rhythm and timing with your gas pedal.

Since you mentioned the engine bushing support. I remembered my clunking and a strong hit problem, but a little different from yours.
The "clunking" occured during clutch disengagement only as well, but in both upshifting and downshifting the gear.
My "strong hit" was from the rear of the car. The culprits were the gear bushing support and the rear differential bushing support. They were both cracked up and torn.
This may not be the solution to your problem, but there is no harm checking your gear and rear diff bushing supports.


To answer your question... "did you have the same problems when it was new ?"
No... I did not this problem when I newly installed my GD.
The only problem that I had was launching my car on 1st gear in a traffic jam. It took me 1 whole day to sync my left foot with my right foot. Then I got my clutch pedal adjusted to my comfortable disengagement distant, after that every gear change was fun.


Cheers.
+: Lar' :+

[Wolf_tm]

I had discussed your clutch problem with my mechanic friend.
He said that there is no problem with the clutch.

I hope he is right !

His last opinion was maybe you are still new to engage and disengage the twin plate clutch and need more time sync the rhythm and timing with your gas pedal.

I even tried MANY times to release very very very... VERY slowly, 1/10 of a mm at a time, the pedal, but when the disc touches the flywheel....... KABOOOOOM ! immediately all the clutch is totally disengaged !

I read somewhere this could be due really to the front engine bushing, not correctly preloaded, that makes the engine to wind...

I will try to give it more preload then...


Thank you !

Bye

[Lar-]

", but when the disc touches the flywheel....... KABOOOOOM ! immediately all the clutch is totally disengaged !"....

Yap... That's the main concept of a multi plate(disc) clutch, to make the disc grab the flywheel as quickly and as firmly(minimum slippage) as possible.
The quicker the disc catches the flywheel, the lesser the energy loss from the flywheel = more energy goes to the drive train.

Unlike a single plate clutch, there will always be some slippage of the disc with the flywheel.
This slippage would give some ease while the clutch is disengaging, so you won't feel that clunking or jerking motions.
However, some energy from the flywheel will be lost(due to slippage) in exchange for the comfort in clutch disengagement.

2 of my friends sold away their OS Giken twin plate clutch set after using it for only 1 week. They can't fully controlled and were tired of the heavy and fast total disengagement of the clutch.


"I will try to give it more preload then..."

Please come back and update when you have given the front bushing more preload ok??
Man... I wish I could be in Italy right now. I really want to check out what's going on with your GT-4.


Cheers,
+: Lar' :+

[Wolf_tm]

Hi Lar,

I re-make the front engine bushing with harder rubber,
and now the chattering almost totally disappeared !

Thank you