 REALLY serious about doing a 5sgte, with a GE head. no gte. |
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 Sep 15, 2004 - 9:38 PM
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 Enthusiast  Joined Nov 12, '02 From Webster Ma. Currently Offline Reputation: 1 (100%)  |
i have found a head thanks to a memeber, im trying to convince my dad into helping with the project. alright so im brainstorming for the 5sgte. since i can bolt the turbo-manifold directly on theres no problem there. but what about the intake manifold. it has a different bolt pattern if what i heard it right. so id need a GE intake manifold. or aftermarket intake for a 3sge. now the 5sfe uses a maf sensor would the 3sge manifold use the same type? anyone have more information on this. also on the GE head were would i tap it for oil? or does it use the same location and sensor as the 5sfe?
Also. il be running out of fuel with the amount of boost i want to run. the 7mgte injectors 440cc will fit but the ohms are wrong, for a coil pack is it as simply as sondering a resistor on one of the injector harness leads? if so thats the next step. This post has been edited by x_itchy_b_x: Sep 15, 2004 - 10:10 PM -------------------- |
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Sep 16, 2004 - 12:07 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Nov 4, '02 From Davenport Iowa Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
why not run a 3sgte intake manifold??
as for getting them to line up that's a simple fix... get an intake manifold gasket for the 3sge and one for the 3sgte, be sure to mark them as to which is which.. the 3sgte would be head side.. and the 3sge would be intake side... take them to a local machine shop.. have them make you an adaptor plate so the intake runners will meet up with the intake ports on the head... the only problem you would run into there is if the bolts dont line up... if thats the case then hopefully the 3sge intake mounting bolts are inside the width of the 3sgte mounting bolts. if thats the case then have them tap holes into the addapter plate for the 3sge manifold that only go about half way threw the addapter plate... then you should be able to mount the plate to the intake and then mount the whole thing to the side of the head... it would be tricky to design if its like that but would work fine for you. I would suggest just getting the 3sgte intake manifold.. there on ebay for like 40 bucks all the time  edit: soo.... would that be a 5sge-t or a 5stge or a 5sftge or what the hell would you call it!!!  LOLedit 2x: HAHAHHAHAHA -> 5's GET This post has been edited by NEVERSTOP: Sep 16, 2004 - 12:39 AM --------------------  99 project version 3.0.. hello SEMA 2010 =) |
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Sep 16, 2004 - 5:37 PM
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 Enthusiast Joined Dec 2, '02 From Portland, Oregon Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
isnt the 3sge a 2.0 liter head? what block are you planning on using on this project? If you're gonna use the 5s you're gonna have to go stroker... which you should do!!
This post has been edited by Doge: Sep 16, 2004 - 5:37 PM |
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Sep 16, 2004 - 5:49 PM
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 Administrator Joined Aug 23, '02 From Seattle, WA Currently Offline Reputation: 14 (100%) |
Yeah, I'm curious as to which head you plan on using.
-------------------- New Toyota project coming soon...
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Sep 16, 2004 - 6:45 PM
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 Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
The head does not matter in displacement... and his plan is as stated, a 5S block with a GE head turbo'ed with 2.2 liters. The only problem I see, the 5SFE bottom end is weak. You can use either intake manifold, 3SGTE or 3SGE depending on the head (bigport vs. smallport). Depending on how you go about it, you're gonna have to use the 3SGTE sensors/harness and ecu. The 5SFE sensors/harness/ecu is not gonna work correctly... that... or go standalone. -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Sep 16, 2004 - 7:01 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Dec 2, '02 From Portland, Oregon Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
doesn't the combustion chamber have to be matched with the cylinders?
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Sep 16, 2004 - 7:22 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
the latter versions of the 5S block does match up with the 3SG head... This post has been edited by Kwanza26: Sep 16, 2004 - 7:23 PM -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Sep 16, 2004 - 7:24 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Dec 2, '02 From Portland, Oregon Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
Oh sweet! You learn something new every day!
can you explain alittle more though? how does the 2.0 head match the 2.2 block?
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Sep 16, 2004 - 7:38 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Sep 25, '03 From cranston RI Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
im completely lost... i know nothing about engines... but good luck john!!! it'll be this winters project!!!
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Sep 16, 2004 - 10:43 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Nov 12, '02 From Webster Ma. Currently Offline Reputation: 1 (100%) |
i pan on buying a new block anyways. from here http://www.importperformanceparts.net/impo...kit-toyota.html
with an 8.5-1 comp ratio. so id probly have to go stand alone. aem or something. the head im looking to buy is port and polished oversized valves and an agressive cam set. the heads mount to and S series block. 3s 5s yeah know. i love to do this but i want my facts straight before i start a project this big. -------------------- |
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Sep 16, 2004 - 11:30 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Nov 4, '02 From Davenport Iowa Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
Not doubting you here but I think you would be able to use the 5s harness with the 3sge intake manifold... I can see the problem with the 3sgte due to TVIS and other sensors etc... but would the 3sge really be that different? I think using the 3sge harness/ecu would be the best option if you use the 3sge head though.. I would research into doing the 3sge (beams?) swap and see what all is nessarcy to run it in a 204. it would basically be the same as that since the blocks should be almost identical between the 5s,3sgte,3sge other than internals. then just run your aftermarket BTM and FMU, 2bar map, etc I would really suggest that you just do a 5sgte.. you know it will bolt up and can use the 3sgte harness.. its all ready set for boost.. just redo the pistions/crank... or just swap competely... but I also understand the need for being different which ever way GOOD LUCK! and keep us posted
-------------------- 99 project version 3.0.. hello SEMA 2010 =) |
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Sep 17, 2004 - 10:16 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Nov 12, '02 From Webster Ma. Currently Offline Reputation: 1 (100%) |
haha its not reallt the need for being different its that the im planning to buy is amazing port and polish and everything. i read that te 3sgte head and 3sge head are the same. anyone wanna say different? haha and guys this wont happend for a while ill jsut source parts for now. but once thingswork out for me ill build that motor.
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Sep 17, 2004 - 12:54 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
You can use the 5S harness, but you'll need all of the appropriate plugs from the 3SG cause more than likely things like TPS, plugs for MAP or AFM, distributor plugs, ignitor/coil, etc are all different. All of these things will need to be wired in for the 3SG head to work correctly, not to mention you'll probably need to re-pin the ECU plugs to match the 3SG ecu. TVIS is not an isse. It's one plug and does not need to be plugged in. I don't see having and utilizing TVIS as an advantage, but that all depends which head he has.
Each generation of the 3SG wore a different head. This is also refers partially to the 3SGTE. The USDM 1st gen 3SGTE (ST165) had the bigport head with TVIS while the 2nd gens (ST185 models 91-93) does not. I believe the ST205 3SGTE has the same head as the ST185 gen 3SGTE... As far as the n/a heads are concerned, 1st gen 3SGE had TVIS (bigport), 2nd gen did not (smallport), 3rd gen was shimless, and 4th/5th gens were the Beams red and black respectively. This post has been edited by Kwanza26: Sep 17, 2004 - 12:55 PM -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Sep 17, 2004 - 11:00 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Nov 4, '02 From Davenport Iowa Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
dont know about the 165 but the 185 and 205 heads are different.. 185 head has TVIS while the 205 does not.. the intake and exhaust ports are different also on them. 185 intake ports  205 intake ports  185 exhaust ports  205 exhaust ports  the combustion chambers are very similar.. the water jackets are slightly different though 185 chamber  205 chamber 
LOL I was just referring to the intake manifold there.. not the head also  -------------------- 99 project version 3.0.. hello SEMA 2010 =) |
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Sep 17, 2004 - 11:31 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
I'm pretty sure 91-93 used a non-TVIS head. I've worked on an ST165 and an ST185 at the shop and I'm pretty certain the later model ST185 (91-93) used the smallport head. I'm uncertain about the ST205... The exact model alltracs I worked on was a 92 Alltrac... vs an 89 Alltrac...
All things work in conjunction and once you start putting things together, you'll have to do the other stuff too. For example: TPS may be different, and the older 3SGTE uses an external coil/ignitor opposed to an internal distributor type... amougst other little things. All of these little things inter-connect to the manifold and read off the AFM/MAP so you gotta do it correctly if you wanna use stockish electronics. This is the sort of stuff I wouldn't try to cut and paste on. >>> I should also point out we don't know which 3SG head exactly he has... This post has been edited by Kwanza26: Sep 17, 2004 - 11:33 PM -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Sep 17, 2004 - 11:43 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
The blocks are of the same family and are based off of the S series block design (3S and 5S). The 5S has increased deck height (taller block), and a .5 overbore. Those are the only major differences between the two, aside from reinforcement ribs and such. The internals are also different, the 3SG blocks having much stronger internals being a performance engine while the 5SFE has a longer crank (longer/bigger stroke). The stroke increase and the bore increase is what makes the 5S block a 2.2 liter as opposed to the 3S block which is 2.0. Now, because they are from the same family of blocks, the water passages and such are all cut the same way (or at least, very very similar). They line up more or less. Because the cuts in the block are the same, the cuts in the head are the same. Refer to NEVERSTOP's picture of the combustion chambers. Even though the two heads are completely different, they share similar cooling passages in the head because they share the same block family... On a side note, Toyota did do a revision to the 5S block in the later models. I forget which exactly, but I think it happened in 97 or 98 or something like that. This was the last block revision for the 5SFE and these 5S blocks, as I'm told, do not line up to the older 3SG heads. The later model 3SG heads (3rd gen, BEAMS, possibly ST205) may line up to the last revision, meaning they may not line up to the older 5S blocks... -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Sep 18, 2004 - 2:12 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Nov 4, '02 From Davenport Iowa Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
naw the 185/sw20 all had TVIS.. alot of 2 owners remove the TVIS from them. you might be confused with the 165 im not sure if they had TVIS or not.
let me clearify some more.. I was basically trying to say that he could use the intake manifold.. just by itself with the 5sfe harness.. its kinda like putting a venom intake on a civic.. you bolt it up and hook up your stock sensors... thats all Im saying, the shape of the intake will not make a big enuf difference to warrant new sensors/wiring. you might have to adapt some of the sensor mounts etc but other than that I think you could pull it off without having to splice into too much stuff.. granted if the 3sge intake runs sensors that work off different ohms/watts or whatever it is that sensors read off of....LOL granted using the head and other componets would need extra wiring -------------------- 99 project version 3.0.. hello SEMA 2010 =) |
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Sep 18, 2004 - 2:46 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
I'm also trying to clearify to you that regardless of the manifold (he can use any 3SGE manifold he wants), the 5S harness cannot adapt to the GE head, manifold and the sensors related without the original 3SG plugs and ECU. Why not? Same reason you can't simply bolt up and plug in a 3SGTE. The 5SFE sensors cannot interpret the 3SG signals correctly. It's the same as using the 5SFE harness directly into a 3SGTE. I doesn't work like that. This is considered as difficult as a 3SGTE swap simply because of that. If you look at the sensors, the majority of them are attached or related directly to the intake manifold. This in now way refers to the intake manifold iteself (size/shape/whatever), but the function of the manifold. The intake manifold is connected to just about every single major sensor minus the O2... A 5SGTE hybrid is essentially a 3SGTE swap only with a 5S block... -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Sep 18, 2004 - 12:42 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Nov 4, '02 From Davenport Iowa Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
LOL yea I understand all that... Im just saying you could prolly use the intake by itself with 5sfe sensors... you run the head and everything else you will need to do other things - already have stated that myself in this thread. Im not disagreeing with you kwanza.. im just saying you could make the intake by itself work with no major electrical mods.. you might have to adapt a few things on the intake itself to make the 5sfe sensors work though... thats all im saying and I understand the 5sgte hybrid with the GTE head cuz I have seriously considered doing it. Itchy is discussing doing a 5sge with turbo. -------------------- 99 project version 3.0.. hello SEMA 2010 =) |
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Sep 18, 2004 - 12:50 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Nov 12, '02 From Webster Ma. Currently Offline Reputation: 1 (100%) |
haha i love these topics. alright thats what ill do most likly just use the ge manifold with 5sfe sensors. ect. -------------------- |
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