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> got the 5SFTE put on a DYNO, heres the results. actual number finally
post Nov 6, 2004 - 3:06 PM
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x_itchy_b_x



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i figure 220 ish chp and 227ctq. how about you?
13psi. 93 octane gas no additives.
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im happy with it for now. once i get cams ill be good. biggrin.gif

ps woot. 4 little boxes now

This post has been edited by x_itchy_b_x: Nov 6, 2004 - 3:47 PM


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post Nov 6, 2004 - 3:11 PM
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Digndoug



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DAMN, thats pretty freaking nice.. now you just need to take her to the track..
post Nov 6, 2004 - 3:12 PM
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Good job man, you're ahead of my stock ST by like 100 whp ...
post Nov 6, 2004 - 3:36 PM
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damn dude mad props, how much did your grand total run you, jw cuz ill probibly end up goin that route.
post Nov 6, 2004 - 3:40 PM
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QUOTE (importceli @ Nov 6, 2004 - 4:36 PM)
damn dude mad props, how much did your grand total run you, jw cuz ill probibly end up goin that route.

1400 - 1600. no internals. thats my next project.


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post Nov 6, 2004 - 3:53 PM
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importceli



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so 3grand with internals and install? could i get away with 2grand for turbo and install with my low milage 56k mile engine? and also can the convertable handle the turbo? someone was talkin about the different chasis codes? whats that gotta do with it?
post Nov 6, 2004 - 4:30 PM
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shid



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Nice Itchy; Nice smile.gif Can't wait to put down that much power.
post Nov 6, 2004 - 5:00 PM
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lagos



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wow, nice numbers. thats about what the swap puts down (or so i hear)


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post Nov 6, 2004 - 9:26 PM
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QUOTE (lagos @ Nov 6, 2004 - 6:00 PM)
wow, nice numbers. thats about what the swap puts down (or so i hear)

its good stuff. poor mans turbo aint so bad smile.gif


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post Nov 6, 2004 - 9:35 PM
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orvillescelica



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wow!! nice job! much more than i expected!

with beefed up internals you can definatly put down much more


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post Nov 6, 2004 - 10:20 PM
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Consynx



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actually it should be about the same until some heavy modifications.
although he is pushing 190ish at the wheels now, the higher compression is helping, so once he goes down to 8.5, he'll have to boost higher just to get 190 again

maybe though, maybe he'll be able to boost past that mark wink.gif


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post Nov 6, 2004 - 11:27 PM
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run the quarter mile..

all this horsepower numbers doesnt make any sense to me.. i need a quarter mile time to use as a reference.

smile.gif
post Nov 6, 2004 - 11:41 PM
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Thats awsome!You want to go fast drop weight and see the differance until you do the enternals!
post Nov 7, 2004 - 12:07 AM
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QUOTE (celicaspeed @ Nov 7, 2004 - 12:41 AM)
Thats awsome!You want to go fast drop weight and see the differance until you do the enternals!

haha i did tonight i pulled my system out and now im puttin her on a diet ive got hte speed bug.


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post Nov 7, 2004 - 12:28 AM
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Lemme guess stock 5s management with bigger injectors. Your A/F looks terrible. Standalone or chip should be your next mod. You could easily see 200+ at the wheels on the same amoutn of boost.
post Nov 7, 2004 - 1:09 AM
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QUOTE (Fox-N-It2 @ Nov 7, 2004 - 1:28 AM)
Lemme guess stock 5s management with bigger injectors.  Your A/F looks terrible.  Standalone or chip should be your next mod.  You could easily see 200+ at the wheels on the same amoutn of boost.

terrible are u crazy? its perfect! no boost till 4k 14.5 stoich. then wehn the boost comes on ist at the optimum area.. also check my management in profile.

This post has been edited by x_itchy_b_x: Nov 7, 2004 - 1:09 AM


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post Nov 7, 2004 - 1:22 AM
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celicarocker

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m00oo00ttT!!! badass john!!!


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post Nov 7, 2004 - 1:23 AM
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QUOTE
wow, nice numbers. thats about what the swap puts down (or so i hear)


yea HP figures like that kinda make the swap look at little less appealing.... cuz for the same price you pay for the swap you could build a VERY nice 5sfte


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post Nov 7, 2004 - 2:17 AM
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QUOTE (Hanyo @ Nov 7, 2004 - 4:27 AM)
run the quarter mile..

all this horsepower numbers doesnt make any sense to me.. i need a quarter mile time to use as a reference.

smile.gif

With that setup he should be looking at a mid 14 1/4 mile. If he really can drive, then maybe a low 14.

I'm very impressed. Nice job. The boost comes on a little late for a comfortable daily driver, but it's wide enough so that you can stay in your powerband when racing. You can drive around all day without hitting boost and then when you want to, let it run past 4k and zzsssssssssssssssssssssss........................PSSHH!

This post has been edited by raven_101: Nov 7, 2004 - 2:20 AM


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post Nov 7, 2004 - 9:29 AM
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QUOTE (raven_101 @ Nov 7, 2004 - 3:17 AM)
QUOTE (Hanyo @ Nov 7, 2004 - 4:27 AM)
run the quarter mile..

all this horsepower numbers doesnt make any sense to me.. i need a quarter mile time to use as a reference.

smile.gif

With that setup he should be looking at a mid 14 1/4 mile. If he really can drive, then maybe a low 14.

I'm very impressed. Nice job. The boost comes on a little late for a comfortable daily driver, but it's wide enough so that you can stay in your powerband when racing. You can drive around all day without hitting boost and then when you want to, let it run past 4k and zzsssssssssssssssssssssss........................PSSHH!

yeah. i dont care for that to much. my friend who turboed his mr2 is gunna send me out a blown ct-26 twin entry. it will spool so much faster than my big old supra single entry. cant wait. biggrin.gif
also since ive seen the dyno know my power band for real no guess work. if i shift at arround 5.3k its way nicer than brining in it up higher and better on the engine.


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post Nov 7, 2004 - 10:38 AM
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itchy b is my hero - great job

5S pride m00t m00t

-Ti
post Nov 7, 2004 - 10:40 AM
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QUOTE (NEVERSTOP @ Nov 7, 2004 - 6:23 AM)
QUOTE
wow, nice numbers. thats about what the swap puts down (or so i hear)


yea HP figures like that kinda make the swap look at little less appealing.... cuz for the same price you pay for the swap you could build a VERY nice 5sfte

yeah but with the swap...you are getting a LOT more possibilities as far as mods go...the STOCK 3s puts down that much...think of when you build it up as much as he has built his 5s so far.
post Nov 7, 2004 - 11:08 AM
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It dosnt look like he built it up at all.. he just slaped on a turbo an the components along with it. But also the 3s is getting that power only at what 8pse compared to 13.. when you boost up the 3s its going to be more, also keep in mind the 3s has better internals so its a hella lot safer to run boosted.. where his might crap out 10 k down the road.
post Nov 7, 2004 - 11:17 AM
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lagos



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here is the thing...the 5sfe is a higher compression 2.2l motor. in theory it should be faster at the same boost levels then the 3sgte swap.

but the bad thing about the 5sfTe is that on one reallly knows how long the motor will last. so you make this big investment that will proably fail sooner or later. on a 3sgte with the stock ct26 turbo, the mr2 guys have been running 15psi, all day, everyday...for years. theere are 3sgtes with close to 200,000mile on them, still boosting.

then there are turbo upgrades and fuel upgrades that will gain you even more power. the mr2 guy think the hp limit of the 3sgte is around 700hp! there is on 6th gen ive seen that puts down 400hp. so, as you can see the 3sgte is a better option.

for itchyb, i recomend turning down the boost to a nice 7-8 psi. thats about the most stress you would want to put on a stock motor.


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post Nov 7, 2004 - 11:27 AM
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my 5sfte isnt built at all. ur right. once it is spending the difference between the cost of swapping a turboing on interrnals ill have sumthing alittle stronger than a 3sgte. stroked... and its holding up fine. i chekc everyhting day in a day out. pull the plugs look down to the cylinders check for marks.


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post Nov 7, 2004 - 11:44 AM
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he's passing the time till he can swap, with what he calls the poor mans boost tongue.gif


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post Nov 7, 2004 - 11:44 AM
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pretty decent number's.
post Nov 7, 2004 - 3:12 PM
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QUOTE
here is the thing...the 5sfe is a higher compression 2.2l motor. in theory it should be faster at the same boost levels then the 3sgte swap.

but the bad thing about the 5sfTe is that on one reallly knows how long the motor will last. so you make this big investment that will proably fail sooner or later. on a 3sgte with the stock ct26 turbo, the mr2 guys have been running 15psi, all day, everyday...for years. theere are 3sgtes with close to 200,000mile on them, still boosting.

then there are turbo upgrades and fuel upgrades that will gain you even more power. the mr2 guy think the hp limit of the 3sgte is around 700hp! there is on 6th gen ive seen that puts down 400hp. so, as you can see the 3sgte is a better option.

for itchyb, i recomend turning down the boost to a nice 7-8 psi. thats about the most stress you would want to put on a stock motor.


um... dude... the 5s and 3s are almost identical block wise.. just the top end is different granted and the 5s internals arn't quite as strong as the 3s. But internals aren't that much to upgrade either. basically once you redo internals you get a 3sgte stoker kit for free wink.gif

as for compression... there not that far off

3sgte - 8.5:1
5sfe - 9.5:1

I could see a 11:1 ratio putting WAY more power down per lb of boost than a 8.5 or 9.5 motor but not gonna see all that much difference between the 3s and 5s only slightly more

and as for all those turbo and fuel upgrades.... um yea... they work on the 5s also tongue.gif

and how can you say that just because the 3s has putt down 400+ its a better engine?? LOL the 5sfte is still kind new compared to the 3s.. there is NO one that has meet the full potiental of the 5sfte yet... granted some people have had probs with it.. but how many people blow 3s's every month that you never really hear about?

believe me lagos.. I used to feel the same way bout the 3s swap since I had a swapped 6gc since before most people here even owned there celicas.. but I have been seriously researching the 5sfte for a few months now for the 99 and the more I look into it the more appealing it is and the more it seems like the better route.. I should have the whole project installed with in a month or so and I'll let you guys know what I think of the differences between the 3s swap and the 5sfte. -Only think I will prolly miss is the TVIS frown.gif

itchy?? how long has the 5sfte been runnin strong for you?

BTW good job man biggrin.gif


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post Nov 7, 2004 - 3:41 PM
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Nice numbers indeed.

The 13psi on a stock setup does make me cringe...

...but nice


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post Nov 7, 2004 - 5:15 PM
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lagos



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NEVERSTOP, what happened to your swap, why dont you have it anymore?

i could never see anyone on here with a 3sgte, install it, take it out and decide a 5sfTe was a better way to go.

any motor can be great if you throw enough money at it.

everyone has their setups and what route they decided to go with their cars. the way i see it is that you can spend all this money into your 5sfe and make it amazing, but the whole process will be this huge experiment of will it live or will it die, as long as the owner accepts that and isint afraid of pulling out a 5s and putting in a new one, then its all good.

with the 3sgte, you are getting a motor that was built for boost. everythihng from the pistons to the ecu is factory made to take boost day in and day out. seeing as how you can buy a clip for 1,500-2,500, thats a good deal right there.


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post Nov 7, 2004 - 5:55 PM
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wow, that's really great man. I am actually surprised though. the 7a with 8lbs puts down about 170whp, or that was my impression... Granted, it can't touch that torque though. smile.gif
post Nov 7, 2004 - 6:24 PM
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NEVERSTOP

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QUOTE
NEVERSTOP, what happened to your swap, why dont you have it anymore?


LOL wow man.. where have you been the last two years biggrin.gif

QUOTE
i could never see anyone on here with a 3sgte, install it, take it out and decide a 5sfTe was a better way to go.


Two different celicas

QUOTE
any motor can be great if you throw enough money at it.


diffently true... but average swap done right is gonna run 4-5k+

Nicely built 5sfte project 3-4k

Its all about HP per $ and the 5sfte seems the better way to go IMO... well find out soon wink.gif


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post Nov 7, 2004 - 7:00 PM
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QUOTE
wow man.. where have you been the last two years biggrin.gif


I'm interested to know too. Where is it?

QUOTE

diffently true... but average swap done right is gonna run 4-5k+

Nicely built 5sfte project  3-4k

Its all about HP per $ and the 5sfte seems the better way to go IMO... well find out soon wink.gif


The HP/$ factor starts to dramatically increase as you start adding more power. Adding more (reliable) power to the 5sfte will start to cost incredible amounts of money. It all depends on your goal I guess... if you want to stay around the 200hp level then you're right... the 5s is probably better... but any higher and this HP/$ ratio you talk about will suddenly flip in the 3s's favor.

This post has been edited by Doge: Nov 7, 2004 - 7:02 PM
post Nov 7, 2004 - 7:25 PM
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9.5:1 i thought it was 10.5:1 once again, i guess you can't go off of information from other websites.

anyways, an engine isn't an engine if it isn't reliable.

and what is this i hear about the cams then
they're supposedly at 22.3 degrees, and i use to be under the impression that that was their angle from the valves perp.
if it's their lift, then once again, the SAME site has me believing what is wrong.

what ever happened to Webcams? their price was going up last i saw

This post has been edited by Consynx: Nov 7, 2004 - 7:27 PM


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post Nov 7, 2004 - 8:44 PM
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If you get a piggy back it will do alot more than what you can do right now.Your ecu wont let your car do what u want it to because of maps and other stuff.If you really want to go hard core do what I did and get a AEM wide band o2 and tune it in to the T.

This post has been edited by celicaspeed: Nov 7, 2004 - 8:46 PM
post Nov 7, 2004 - 9:10 PM
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Good stuff. Excellent numbers... what I'd expect from a well tuned 5SFTE at 13 psi. As for those who are arguing... you've yet to express any real indication that you really know what you're arguing about (you might know a bit... but you've yet to hit the nail on the head)... so I'm not gonna say nothing to you guys. All I'll say is... compression is pretty mild so that's not a huge threat so long as you don't take shortcuts. The reason the 5S can make that sort of power boosted is because of the OVERALL design. Apply those big torque numbers from forced induction to the HP equation and you'll get big HP numbers also. There's more... so until you ask... I'll let the other guys try to figure it out... ;]


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post Nov 7, 2004 - 9:24 PM
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I just read Itchy's last post on the first page

Just cause I think I know what I'm talking about - and I'm sure Kwanza will burn the hell out of me if I dont smile.gif ...

I believe you have to have a twin entry manifold to accept the twin entry turbo. And vice versa. If you have a single entry supra turbo now and you get a mr2 twin - then I believe you have to do something about that manifold. Flame away if I'm wrong.

-Ti

God I suck at spelling

This post has been edited by turboinduction: Nov 7, 2004 - 9:25 PM
post Nov 7, 2004 - 9:29 PM
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u guys i have plans for the 5sfte. i want to push it to its limits. im doing supra valves 1mm oversized. with shimless s2000 retainers, an supra valve springs. web cams (once i find extra 5sfe cams to send out) . piston and rods. larger injectors a better igniti0n system and a nitrous 35 spool shot. if i can find a cheap T3 id get one. its a work in progres for me and always has. eventually do stand alone ecu. its all what i can save from working at a grocery store and doing the labor myself. im only 18 smile.gif
i know ibwilsons 5sfte is gunna be amazing i can wait to see that complete.

ok heres the deal about manifolds. yes and no. i had a twin entry going into my single turbo BUT before i put it on i ground out the devider and making a nice swirl for the swirl to travel. but to use that new twin entry turob im getting ill either find a new manifold. or weld in a devider were i took it out.

This post has been edited by x_itchy_b_x: Nov 7, 2004 - 9:36 PM


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post Nov 7, 2004 - 9:32 PM
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QUOTE (x_itchy_b_x @ Nov 8, 2004 - 2:29 AM)
u guys i have plans for the 5sfte. i want to push it to its limits. im doing supra valves 1mm oversized. with shimless s2000 retainers, an supra valve springs. web cams (once i find extra 5sfe cams to send out) . piston and rods. larger injectors a better igniti0n system and a nitrous 35 spool shot. if i can find a cheap T3 id get one. its a work in progres for me and always has. eventually do stand alone ecu. its all what i can save from working at a grocery store and doing the labor myself. im only 18 smile.gif
i know ibwilsons 5sfte is gunna be amazing i can wait to see that complete.

Itchy... my reccomendation is to not worry about or spend any money on the head until you build the bottomend. The stock head has fair potential with boost...


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post Nov 7, 2004 - 9:58 PM
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This is muscle car knowledge coming out, try to find cams that have sat in a junkyard and have "rust" all over it. They'll be much much harder than a normally clean cam. my .02 cents


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post Nov 7, 2004 - 11:02 PM
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lagos



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my theory is this....if slaping on a turbo, retarding timing and changing the fuel tuning was all that was needed to make a realiable turbo motor, then toyota would have put the 5sfTe into the alltrac, running stock alltrac boost of 7-11psi.

itcyb, dont take this as a diss against your project. i have a lot of respect for the tuning you have done on your car. keep up the good work!


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post Nov 8, 2004 - 3:35 AM
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NEVERSTOP

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QUOTE
my theory is this....if slaping on a turbo, retarding timing and changing the fuel tuning was all that was needed to make a realiable turbo motor, then toyota would have put the 5sfTe into the alltrac, running stock alltrac boost of 7-11psi.


um... what do you think the 3sgte is? its basically a built for boost 5sfe with a differnt head ...

at least in a broad sense of the term - I can lay down all the differences in between the two motors if I have to spec wise wink.gif

and theres a little more than just slappin on the the turbo, retading the timing and changin fuel tuning

QUOTE
9.5:1 i thought it was 10.5:1 once again, i guess you can't go off of information from other websites.


its 9.5:1 and im stickin to that untill I see an offical toyota site post differently

QUOTE
I'm interested to know too. Where is it?


My 94 GT - the project one.



U know I'm not tryin to argue with you guys... just tryin to make the point that dollar for dollar HP for HP after seein itchy's dynos the 5sfte seems the easier more cost affective route to go, like itchy has said.. his isnt really built all that much just the basics really and hes running close if not the same as the 3s does stock and for less than half the price... another 1-2k would make his 5sfte brilliant.

BTW itchy.. I have an extra set of cams if you need them for a 5s.. hit me up if interested.. will let em go for dirt cheap


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post Nov 8, 2004 - 8:34 AM
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lagos



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QUOTE
and theres a little more than just slappin on the the turbo, retading the timing and changin fuel tuning


thats basically what itchyb has done!

QUOTE
and hes running close if not the same as the 3s does stock and for less than half the price


you do realize that his motor probably wont be able to take 13psi for much longer, right?

but what the hell do i know, i only have a crappy 3sgte that i wrench on everyday.



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post Nov 8, 2004 - 10:56 AM
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x_itchy_b_x



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but isnt the 3sge is the same as a 3sgte right?? why didnt toyota jsut slap n a turbo to that? and retard the timing wiht larger fuel... thats all u'd have to do.. but they didnt because not every car they put out is gunna be a 200 hp fast car. the 5sfe goal was torque with low emissions and gas milage. also kwanza what are we missing man dont hold out.


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post Nov 8, 2004 - 11:57 AM
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nik



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its good to see that the guys putting on turbos and not just swaping are getting pretty good numbers. its been said before put i also think anything above 250 whp on a fwd is a waste but thats me.


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yea your 3sgte is cool but ill stick to my 7agte
post Nov 8, 2004 - 12:01 PM
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Kwanza26



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QUOTE (x_itchy_b_x @ Nov 8, 2004 - 3:56 PM)
but isnt the 3sge is the same as a 3sgte right?? why didnt toyota jsut slap n a turbo to that? and retard the timing wiht larger fuel... thats all u'd have to do.. but they didnt because not every car they put out is gunna be a 200 hp fast car. the 5sfe goal was torque with low emissions and gas milage. also kwanza what are we missing man dont hold out.

No... the 3SGE and 3SGTE internals are different. The 5SFE is gonna show more big horsepower numbers because of the head design and the HP formula. The FE head design is excellent for making big torque numbers with boost... even a bit better than a GE head. Whenever big torque numbers are calculated with the HP formula... you get big HP numbers (assuming you have a decent rpm range). The FE head, in a sense, is far superior in making low-mid ranged torque. As for lago's reasons... the reason Toyota didn't put a 5SFTE into an alltrac or something... it's all about torque delivery. If you look at itchy's dyno... the torque is maxed out at around 4200-4500 rpms. There is significant drop off between 4500 rpms and 6000 rpms (from a peak of almost 200 ftlbs to around 120 ftlbs)... The 3SGTE on the other hand... does not do this. It maintains its torqueband and doesn't drop off until 7000 rpms or so. It can keep making power with more modifications... but as far as racing is concerned... even though the 5SFTE makes that good amount of torque/hp... it's not in a very effective spot in the powerband. The 3SGTE makes its power where it counts and then some.

As for everything else... the 5SFE compression ratio is 9:5:1... Its internals are completely different and no where near as strong as the 3SGTE's. I agree with lagos that a turbo 5SFE will see problems if shortcuts were taken and tuning is not good. The life and death of a custom turbo kit (and the motor) depends on the details you do or do not take care of. As far as making power is concerened, the 5SFTE will always make more low-end to mid-ranged torque than a 3SGTE pound for pound. Displacement and the FE head are the reasons.


--------------------
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post Nov 8, 2004 - 1:12 PM
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lol, Neverstop...i liked the comment

this is a lil bit of an uglier post.

Kwanza i think you did leave out the idea that even though pound for pound the 5S will always outpower, that to get to the next level it might cost more for the 5S.

such as once you want to pass 15psi, the 5S needs more than the 3S
correct me if i am wrong though...


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post Nov 8, 2004 - 1:29 PM
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i wish they just would have imported the GT4 frown.gif


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yea your 3sgte is cool but ill stick to my 7agte
post Nov 8, 2004 - 7:14 PM
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nice add nik

Also, you're saying life and death with the 5s-fte, well, how about a 5s-fze, supercharged. What happens there. For starters, which one is worse on the engine? And spill the rest of the info kwanza on the supercharger route


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post Nov 8, 2004 - 7:29 PM
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Kwanza26



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QUOTE (spunky393 @ Nov 9, 2004 - 12:14 AM)
nice add nik

Also, you're saying life and death with the 5s-fte, well, how about a 5s-fze, supercharged. What happens there. For starters, which one is worse on the engine? And spill the rest of the info kwanza on the supercharger route

With mild boost (6-10 psi) it all depends on tuning. The 5SFE can probably handle 10 psi as a daily driver... but you'd have to be very meticulous about the fuel tuning and the cooling/lube. There will be very little difference between a supercharged 5S and a turbo 5S. The engine will feel more strain supercharged because superchargers are usually on constant boost, but if it's tuned well, the engine should last. A turbo will actually be a bit more dangerous because various failures can cause overboost amougst tons of other scenarios. Turbos also need cooling time while superchargers typically don't run as hot as turbos. It's a matter of prefrence. A turbo set-up has future build potential. A supercharger is limited to the size of the pulley and the blower.

Consynx: yeah... I didn't mention price issues and buildability mostly because I'd figure the people involved with the arguing know that already. The 3SGTE, as strong as it is in stock trim... won't live long beyond 15 psi with stock pistons... The 5SFE, IMO, probably won't live long beyond 12 psi without pistons and rods. I'd also reccomend to itchy, he should be very careful boosting beyond 10 psi... because running a little lean can cause complete failure... and that has been the most consistant thing with custom turbo kits...


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post Nov 8, 2004 - 7:40 PM
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lagos



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QUOTE (Kwanza26 @ Nov 8, 2004 - 5:29 PM)
The 3SGTE, as strong as it is in stock trim... won't live long beyond 15 psi with stock pistons...

tell that to the mr2 guys.


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post Nov 8, 2004 - 9:17 PM
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QUOTE (lagos @ Nov 9, 2004 - 12:40 AM)
QUOTE (Kwanza26 @ Nov 8, 2004 - 5:29 PM)
The 3SGTE, as strong as it is in stock trim... won't live long beyond 15 psi with stock pistons...

tell that to the mr2 guys.

People have fried stock pistons with 15 psi of boost. I'm sure it'll be fine if 15psi is a number people boost for 1/4 mile and such... but it's not the boost level that the engine can maintain regularly. Same goes for itchy's 5SFTE... Just take xxxmina for example. He was running a fully tuned megasquirt standalone and he still had problems...


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post Nov 8, 2004 - 10:13 PM
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lagos



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um...15psi is the limit of the stock ct26 turbo, not the motor.

lookup JekylandHyde on mr2oc.com...he is running 23psi on an unopened motor with 200,000 miles on it.

my final point: dont knock the 3sgte, its a great motor and well worth the upgrade.

on that note, i give up. people can argue this back and forth forever.


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post Nov 8, 2004 - 10:33 PM
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QUOTE (lagos @ Nov 9, 2004 - 3:13 AM)
um...15psi is the limit of the stock ct26 turbo, not the motor.

lookup JekylandHyde on mr2oc.com...he is running 23psi on an unopened motor with 200,000 miles on it.

my final point: dont knock the 3sgte, its a great motor and well worth the upgrade.

on that note, i give up. people can argue this back and forth forever.

I NEVER knocked the motor man. Go back and read what I wrote if that's the impression you got. It's a matter of opinion when it comes to max boost on stock internals. Indeed the turbo maxes out at 15 psi (not really max... but is really inefficient after that)... From my research, a large populous agrees that 15 psi is where the stock 3SGTE pistons start having problems regardless of turbos. That doesn't mean it can't live there... it just means the level of tuning required to have the engine run with that level of boost is very high and the room for mistakes is VERY low. As for the dude running 23psi on the stock block... I'll assure you, he's either BS'ing, or he's run 23 psi for a few drag runs and/or dyno runs. I'll gurrantee that a 3SGTE is not gonna live reliably at 23 psi on the stock block. The 3SGTE does not have stock forged pistons (i think the rods may be)... and a lot of forged set-ups are designed for 20+ psi. 20 psi of boost is a whole lot... For example... my cousin has a buddy who built a turbo B18B Integra. They guy did the whole works with forged internals, fuel mods, programmable ECU, etc... and he's blown up the motor 2 times trying to reach 20 psi.

Also consider... how many people that have swapped in a 3SGTE in the Celica community have really built their motors? Have you? Maybe some people are content with 8-10 psi with the original engine (7AFE/5SFE)... It's much less of a headache than a swap... regardless of how much better that swap is. No body is denying that. The 3SGTE is a great motor and has a ton of build potential... that doesn't mean a 5SFTE is not...


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1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies...

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post Nov 8, 2004 - 10:58 PM
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http://www.jekylhyderacing.com/HydeMods.htm


Hydes 351hp dyno run
http://www.jekylhyderacing.com/images/hyde_351_dyno.mpg


tons of race videos
http://www.jekylhyderacing.com/HydePhotos.htm

This post has been edited by lagos: Nov 8, 2004 - 11:01 PM


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post Nov 8, 2004 - 11:12 PM
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since this is running out
what is the max output of the 3S on stock internals...
I was trying to compare the SR to the 3S, and although the 3S is supposed to rein supreme, now there's numberous people saying the SR can handle well over 500 on stock internals...

im wondering where this is coming from


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post Nov 8, 2004 - 11:46 PM
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NEVERSTOP

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QUOTE
QUOTE 
and theres a little more than just slappin on the the turbo, retading the timing and changin fuel tuning




thats basically what itchyb has done!


hey itchy... didn't you spend a whole winter doin the 5sfte project???

cuz ifso thats a LONG a$$ time to just slap stuff on.... oh wait thats right forgot.. it takes 2weeks to tighen down each exhaust bolt biggrin.gif


QUOTE
you do realize that his motor probably wont be able to take 13psi for much longer, right?

but what the hell do i know, i only have a crappy 3sgte that i wrench on everyday.


dude... straight up man chill with your "holier than thou" attitude that you have had ever since you swapped.. cuz it's F*CKIN ANNOYING... hate to burst you bubble man but you have done nothing special with your car that hasn't already been a buncha times before... granted I will give you alot of credit... your car looks and prolly runs great.. it prolly pwnz almost all other cars where your from... but on a broader sense of things - sorry but its nothing special. You know maybe 4-5+ years ago you could run around with your head up your ass like you do man for the work you have done to your car.. but not nemore that stuff is a dime a dozen now... BTW... been knee deep in grease since I was 8 so your wrench everyday stuff means nothin to me man wink.gif

I totallly agree with you on the point that the 3sgte is an AWESOME motor able to throw down VERY impressive numbers with little to no tuning. but its not the be all end all of toyota/celica motors... a year ago I would of agreed with you 100% lagos in fact I have argued your exact point with some of the people that I am now siding with in this very topic.. but since that time I have actually looked into the 5sfte and think its the better route of the two.. expessially on a budjet

I agree that the 3s will always have more potential for HIGH hp numbers but the cost is insane for high high hp after your factor in the price of the swap alone

You can do aVERY nicly built 5sfte for the price of a 3s swap that should throw out better numbers than the 3s will in stock trim.

QUOTE
lol, Neverstop...i liked the comment


yea I liked it too biggrin.gif

Kawanza - diffently agree with you on this one wink.gif HAHA can you believe that biggrin.gif

my point once agian is $ for $ HP for HP the 5sfte seems the more cost effective route to go and thats it.. either way will deliver nice power that the celica shoulda came with stock frown.gif




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post Nov 9, 2004 - 12:25 AM
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lagos



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hmm... i never said my car was one of a kind or anything like that, but as far as celicas go, its a very rare car. the 3sgte swap is still a new thing and there are only a few of them out there. so, yes, my car is great!

since you decided to go on a presonal attack... i always hear you brag about what you had, but never see u have anything to prove it. "i had awd" "i had a 3sgte" etc.. sorry, but i dont really believe any of it.


back on topic....
QUOTE
my point once agian is $ for $ HP for HP the 5sfte seems the more cost effective route to go and thats it.. either way will deliver nice power that the celica shoulda came with stock 


the whole point is, that if you want a turbo celica, you cant be cheap about it. weather you do a swap or a custom turbo. you should never choose one over the other based on price. this is the type of thing where u have to pay to play or dont play at all. sometimes something like a 5sfTe may seem cheaper, but end up costing more in the end.... and sometimes a 3sgte may seem more expensive but be well worth it when it lasts you problem free for years.


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post Nov 9, 2004 - 12:58 AM
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NEVERSTOP

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QUOTE
hmm... i never said my car was one of a kind or anything like that, but as far as celicas go, its a very rare car. the 3sgte swap is still a new thing and there are only a few of them out there. so, yes, my car is great!

since you decided to go on a presonal attack... i always hear you brag about what you had, but never see u have anything to prove it. "i had awd" "i had a 3sgte" etc.. sorry, but i dont really believe any of it.


HAHAHAHA

Sorry man.. did most that stuff long before this site was around and I was never really a member of celica.net.. never had a need or reason to take hella pics of it and post them... the only people I ever need to really show I could just be like,"hey come check this out"

*pop hood*

Ohhh's Ahhh's etc....

as for pics.. ya I got em somewhere.. Im not gonna beat that dead horse agian and agian wink.gif

BTW... its a little hard to sell a motor to someone if you never had it to begin with... which Im sure you know that Yoda bought my 3s recent since you where an ass to him in his topic about the wiring for the 185 wink.gif

On a personal level.. man your free to think whatever you want.. thats the beauty of our country - matters not to me

On the topic.. your still missin my point, so Im gonna lay it out for you as simple as I can:

3sgte: Swapped in stock trim with FMIC,ICpipes, BOV - 5 to 6k

5sfte: 185 exhaust mani, Turbo, Oil Pan, 2bar map, 7mge injectors, Supra tt fuel pump, plugs and wires, Boost controller, FMU,BTM, BOV, FMIC, IC piping, Custom lines oil/coolant, new internals/rebuilt head... etc - under 5k

now which is gonna put down more power?


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post Nov 9, 2004 - 1:50 AM
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You guys are arguing based on opinion...

Lagos... Hyde has a lot of mods done... His is the highest boost levels I've heard of with the stock block... so I am impressed... but the money he's put in along with his means of doing things (very fuel safe) makes your argument weak. It's not within comparison to a 5SFTE. Apples and Oranges... I have a couple of buddies in town that build MR2 turbos for a living, and from my experience... I don't think boosting a stock block 3SGTE like that is a very good idea... I've seen 3SGTE's fry pistons at pretty modest boost levels... but I'm open to the idea. I just would like for you not to take some dude's word for it so easily. Let me put it this way... would you max out the boost on your car and drive it daily?

Again lagos... I'm not arguing whether or not a 5SFE is as strong as a 3SGTE... that's a no brainer. I'm just saying... most people boost their cars to modest levels (10psi max?) and that no way justifies the idea that "they wasted their time" and "they should have done a swap"... Like I mentioned before... how many Celica people who have swapped 3SGTEs have built up their 3SGTEs? Not many if any... people who have problems with custom turbos almost always take shortcuts... but that doesn't mean it'll happen so long as you're safe about it.


--------------------
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1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver...

1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies...

1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be...
post Nov 9, 2004 - 8:31 AM
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Just to interrupt on your buddy Josh, Kwanza. He's the nicest business man I've ever dealt with. He (well Chico) shipped me the wrong tranny by mistake 2 months ago and I only got to messing with it recently and noticed woops, no LSD, so I contacted him and he had absolutely no problem in swapping it ASAP with no charge to me. Just thought I'd share that in case anyone is looking to deal with them since I noticed your kinda promoting him too lol.

Heres a page of Chris Dittrick's site on a history of 3S-GTE's blowing up:
How To Blow Up Your 3SGTE

This post has been edited by Supersprynt: Nov 9, 2004 - 8:34 AM


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post Nov 9, 2004 - 8:54 AM
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spunky393

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I can't remember who said that they use to soley believe in the 3sgte (becaues i'm on the forth page), haha, but kwanza may remember my post, i've always not blieved in the 3s-gte. I plan on the 5s-fze, and somewhere in the plan, always waving goodbye to swapped 3's. I've always believe in my 5s


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post Nov 9, 2004 - 10:21 AM
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Supersprynt



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Uh...3SGTE isnt a belief or idea you can believe in. The 3sgte is just plainly capable of more power at safer conditions. The 5sfe has plenty of power capability but IDK but it cannot take the abuse I think alot of ppl are going to put it through. The 5sfe was not meant for boost so boosting it requires TLC. The 3s can sustain a little bit of a beating. IMO some people dont accept the responsibility of having a turbo engine and thus dont kno how to properly treat one.


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post Nov 9, 2004 - 10:24 AM
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QUOTE (Supersprynt @ Nov 9, 2004 - 8:21 AM)
Uh...3SGTE isnt a belief or idea you can believe in. The 3sgte is just plainly capable of more power at safer conditions. The 5sfe has plenty of power capability but IDK but it cannot take the abuse I think alot of ppl are going to put it through. The 5sfe was not meant for boost so boosting it requires TLC. The 3s can sustain a little bit of a beating. IMO some people dont accept the responsibility of having a turbo engine and thus dont kno how to properly treat one.

AMEN!

and the cost levels for a swap are not as high as people make them out to be. my clip was 2,500 shipped to my door. so, in theory it can be done for that much, then i spent another 1,500 for tuneup stuff, IC pipes, fmic, gauges, bov, and other toys. then i sold some stuff to from my clip and made about 1,200$ of that back. so, really the cost isint that high when u total it up...but like i said, you have to pay to play! if you are going to do a 5sfTE, do it right, spend lots of money and make sure its as realiable as a factory built engine.... same thing with the 3s, do all the proper tune up stuff to it before u put it in..... dont make a decision of one over the other based on cost. at least with the 3s you are getting their design and reasearch that when into making the 3sgte realiable.

This post has been edited by lagos: Nov 9, 2004 - 10:33 AM


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post Nov 9, 2004 - 10:51 AM
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i dont think any sort of modification will have the engine or swap as reliable as stock, thats just the price you pay for doing this kinda stuff.


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post Nov 9, 2004 - 12:59 PM
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thought some of youmight like this if you havent seen it already.

http://www.trdnw.com/cat_turbo_reviews_1.html
post Nov 9, 2004 - 1:04 PM
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Nemises

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gotta read this is for the 5sfe

Initial dyno tests showed the 7psi kit on the Camry produced 162.4 hp at the wheels, a gain over stock of about 60 hp. The first quarter mile run was 14.93 sec @ 93.36 mph. Later upgrades produced quarter mile times in the 14.25 range @ 99.98 mph.
The upgraded turbo system now in the Camry produced 253.7 hp at the wheels and we have yet to run a quarter mile with the prototype since the additional injector was added and the head was flowed.

Figuring a 20% loss at the wheels the 7psi kit should produce about 203hp at the crank and the prototype Camry is probably producing slightly in excess of 300 crank hp.

http://www.trdnw.com/cat_turbo_performance.html
post Nov 9, 2004 - 1:50 PM
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I wonder if it has an air conditioner, or interior for that matter...
post Nov 9, 2004 - 2:07 PM
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QUOTE (FallenHero @ Nov 9, 2004 - 2:50 PM)
I wonder if it has an air conditioner, or interior for that matter...

my dad wont let me gett rid of my ac. i already stripped the subs out. and sum random heavy stuff. biggrin.gif i went to a 1/4 mile calculator site. and it says if i get my car down to 2600lbs with my hp i can run about a 13.7 so thats cool. but its only an estimate i know. but its sumthing to work towards.


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post Nov 9, 2004 - 2:18 PM
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jayi12-15psi

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QUOTE
since you decided to go on a presonal attack... i always hear you brag about what you had, but never see u have anything to prove it. "i had awd" "i had a 3sgte" etc.. sorry, but i dont really believe any of it.


well, the thing is, he actually did have a 3s-gte, I saw it in his garage when I went ot go pick up my leather seats from him


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post Nov 9, 2004 - 3:29 PM
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I've lost a lot of respect for you NEVERSTOP. You need to control the way you conduct yourself. It may not matter what some people on some forum might think, but I hope you don't blow up like this in real life. You didn't do a very good job of making a point you, you just made an ass outta urself.


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post Nov 9, 2004 - 4:42 PM
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I don't understand how NEVERSTOP made an ass out of himself. How else would he handle being accused of not doing the things he has done to his car? Being only 15 minutes away from him, and the owner of his 3SGTE, I can understand how he would be upset. He has every reason to defend his name and his work done to his 94 project.

He's got pictures to back up his ownership of the 3SGTE before I bought it. Hell, if you look past his 99 in his signature of his replies, thats a guy named Mike that you see working on the 94.




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post Nov 9, 2004 - 5:10 PM
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nik



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everyone is slingen mud now.


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yea your 3sgte is cool but ill stick to my 7agte
post Nov 9, 2004 - 5:12 PM
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x_itchy_b_x



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im sorry..... i jsut posted up some numbers smile.gif yes the 3sgte is better. duhhhhh. but im poor.


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post Nov 9, 2004 - 5:12 PM
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NEVERSTOP

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QUOTE
I've lost a lot of respect for you NEVERSTOP. You need to control the way you conduct yourself. It may not matter what some people on some forum might think, but I hope you don't blow up like this in real life. You didn't do a very good job of making a point you, you just made an ass outta urself.


If your referring to personal attack on lagos.. DUDE I have held my tongue for a long time concerning him... I'm gonna leave it at that. re read my posts then think about what I said and order I said it in. wanst till he started with sarcastic comments that I went to that level.. and it was something I felt needed to be said for a while now... have even discuss with other members prior to my posting...

The only point I tried to make the whole time was this:

QUOTE
yea HP figures like that kinda make the swap look at little less appealing.... cuz for the same price you pay for the swap you could build a VERY nice 5sfte


That was all I had orginally intended to post... and following posts where while arguing my side still friendly.. even to a member I personally can not stand..

If I made an ass outta myself... eh.. ohwell nobodys perfect biggrin.gif

BTW thanks YODA





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99 project version 3.0.. hello SEMA 2010 =)
post Nov 9, 2004 - 7:36 PM
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SlowCelica94



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It's not that you replied, thats fine, it's the way you did.


--------------------
NASA/SCCA RX-7....currently under the knife
92 Civic hatch B16 - Sold
10th anniv RX-7 - RIP
The Slow Celica - Sold...and then crushed crushed due to street racing.

Quote from Seinfeild: George's Boss reading a magazine: "People magazine's most beautiful people. Oh and a Celica...nothin wrong with that!"
post Nov 9, 2004 - 9:26 PM
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DamDirtyApes

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i wanan swap in a supra engine... that will pwn both those engines smile.gif.

neither engine is better. its all about what you want to gain, and ur funding.

5sfte is way better than 3sgte in certain aspects. and in other aspects the 3sgte is way better. pls stop this bickering.

dont make me swap a supra engine in. ill have to whoop all u guys.(in a race)




o yeah and neverstop... ur car kicks ass smile.gif
post Nov 9, 2004 - 10:41 PM
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spunky393

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hold on apes, what kinda race


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The most important lesson I learned from Karate-Dô Kyôshan“You can not be what you do not believe you are”
post Nov 9, 2004 - 11:38 PM
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lagos



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NEVERSTOP, everyone has a different way of looking at things. you may read something i say, and take it one way, and someone else will read it and take it another way. its just the way the internet is.

my personal OPINION (not fact, just the way i take the things u type) of you has alway been of a guy who dosnt tell the truth about his past car projects, but you never see me try to disrespect you about it or try to pick a fight. i agree with SlowCelica94 that your comments were out of line. this is after all a msg board, everyone can state their opinion (about the topic posted) and debate it till the cows come home. so, dont give me crap for trying to debate my side of this topic.


Yota, if you scroll up and read all the posts again, youll see that i only said something about his past projects as a reply to the attacks he made at me in the previous thread. i wasnt the one who started the presonal attacks.

This post has been edited by lagos: Nov 9, 2004 - 11:44 PM


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15PSI - 30MPG - Megasquirt Tuned
post Nov 10, 2004 - 12:54 AM
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celicaspeed

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I think the 5sfe is a great start but if your like me and craving the real power you got the wrong engine to come out and play!Like you guys are saying changing the internals the tuning and dyno the car and see were you can improve the curvs, the truth of it is you are using a mk3 supra turbo thats good at the end of the gears (builds boost late)the 3sgte ct26 kicks in very early in the power band and rpms.So you have now figured what you did wrong just by changing the turbo!Now it spools up quicker and the tourque down low will break your enternals if you dont build the motor from the inside out.Now my question is why go with a turbo on your 5sfe motor if you dont want to be able to run some serious boost ?Kwanza 10 psi is equivalent to 100 hp in theory!A 3sgte is that already on motor, more than a stock 5sfe!If I want to add 100hp i crank up my boost up 10 psi and its still more power and its safer.Now you guy talk about compression the 5sfe is a higher than the 3sgte so you get a new intake manifold with longer runners and there you have raised the compression and the motor is still faster and more safe.I think its cool that someone is doing a NA and turboing it but as far as I concerned I want huge power from my car.And I go all out or why do we even bother spending money on our cars.GO BIG OR GO HOME!!

This post has been edited by celicaspeed: Nov 10, 2004 - 12:56 AM
post Nov 10, 2004 - 1:17 AM
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NEVERSTOP

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QUOTE
you do realize that his motor probably wont be able to take 13psi for much longer, right?

but what the hell do i know, i only have a crappy 3sgte that i wrench on everyday.


that's the post that erked me.. up until they it was just a friendly debate.. hence all my little "LOL" and smilies.. so you would not get confused as I can see how easy that could be...... rolleyes.gif

As for the things I said on a personal level..... LONG OVERDUE.. I have held my tongue concerning you for a long time now.. I have spoken with SEVERAL other members about that LONG before this topic ever came about wink.gif

QUOTE
my personal OPINION (not fact, just the way I take the things u type) of you has always been of a guy who doesn't tell the truth about his past car projects, but you never see me try to disrespect you about it or try to pick a fight.



Um... yea... ok

QUOTE
QUOTE (97Celica @ Jul 13, 2004 - 5:40 PM)
Talk to Neverstop,He made it AWD at one point. 


Bull S h i t !
QUOTE
i think that awd could be done with no problems. neverstop claims to have done it, but im sorry, i just dont believe him.


link

There's more but I don't have time to post em right now but got the point across...

my point on a personal level lagos is that you have run around this site for a while like your king Sh*t.. just cuz you have done the same things that have been done before... you have not brought nething new to the table.. even If I had lied about the AWD conversion.. (which I haven't) at least it opened up the possibility of others trying it.. I personally don't think its worth it after my problems with it, there are tons of new ideas I have thrown out.. some good some bad but you don't see me ripping on every person that graces these boards.. granted I'll argue with the best of em just for the sake of debating but im not usually a dick about it, and you don't see me braggin about the things I have done with the 94...

The closet thing you have done to being helpful and creative for this site is the swap wiring info.. which neone with the wiring schematics and an IQ over 80 could figure out....

So don't come at me tell me you have never attacked me.. cuz you have.. and I let it go for the most part...

So read up and maybe rethink the way you act... granted I have been a dick to some people on this site before.. mynzeyes in particular.. but I have made my amends to them and now things are cool wink.gif

Frankly this has gone way too far IMO.. All I tried saying was that if you had 4-5k to spend.. you could do ALOT more going the 5sfte route... I figured you would of gotten that idea the 1st 3 or 4 times I posted it... maybe some people just are quite as quick witted as the rest of us.. or need to be told 20x's before they understand something....

and on that note.. I am off to the casino cuz losing all my $ seems like alot better idea than trying to match wits with someone obviously ill equipped


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99 project version 3.0.. hello SEMA 2010 =)
post Nov 10, 2004 - 2:01 AM
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SlowCelica94



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So the arugment is sorta like this. 3s is better. But for the money you spend swapping in a 3s, you could build a better 5s. Ok. Prove it. No, don't actually do it, i wanna know now. Price it out. You prove to me there's even strong enough aftermarket support for the 5S to do it.

NEVERSTOP, do you have any pics of ur awd conversion? maybe a write up? Or could you just tell us in a quick nutshell how you did it. I'm not asking for some DIY guide, just enough to sway some opinions as to if you really did it.


--------------------
NASA/SCCA RX-7....currently under the knife
92 Civic hatch B16 - Sold
10th anniv RX-7 - RIP
The Slow Celica - Sold...and then crushed crushed due to street racing.

Quote from Seinfeild: George's Boss reading a magazine: "People magazine's most beautiful people. Oh and a Celica...nothin wrong with that!"
post Nov 10, 2004 - 2:06 AM
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SlowCelica94



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Also, as far as what Lagos has brough to this site, he's brought more then you list. Even if he can just deliver intelligent answers to technical questions, it's pretty helpful. When it comes to anything mechnical on this site, I only take Lagos's, Kwanza's and superspirt's words seriously. Sometimes your's but you just give me a shady vibe


--------------------
NASA/SCCA RX-7....currently under the knife
92 Civic hatch B16 - Sold
10th anniv RX-7 - RIP
The Slow Celica - Sold...and then crushed crushed due to street racing.

Quote from Seinfeild: George's Boss reading a magazine: "People magazine's most beautiful people. Oh and a Celica...nothin wrong with that!"
post Nov 10, 2004 - 9:26 AM
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celicarocker

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meh.... johns addicted to speed anyway... i give it a year and a half and he has a 3S in his car anyway, cuz he maxed out the gains out of his 5S....


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post Nov 10, 2004 - 12:13 PM
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ummmx2

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well from what i hear..you can get the basic basic for the turbo kit for about 800..then add in the bov..turbo timer..boost controller..fuel management..intercooler etc. itll run about 2000 theres the basic 5sfte right there..should run safely at about 8-10 psi..get internals about 3gs..and then some goodies and ur still under the swap cost.
post Nov 10, 2004 - 2:40 PM
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NEVERSTOP

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QUOTE
So the arugment is sorta like this. 3s is better. But for the money you spend swapping in a 3s, you could build a better 5s. Ok. Prove it. No, don't actually do it, i wanna know now. Price it out. You prove to me there's even strong enough aftermarket support for the 5S to do it.


Ok here goes:

Basic 3sgte swap with upgraded IC setup installed by your self:

185 clip - 2000-2500
MRT2 Tranny - 800-1000
motor mounts - Appox 200
Halfshafts camary/mr2 - 200-300
FMIC - 200-400
Piping w/couplers - 200-300
BOV - 50-150
Misc - 500

Total - $4150 - $5350

5sfte Basics:

185 ct26 turbo - 200
185 exhaust manifold - 60-90
185 oil pan - 60
7mge injectors - 70-90
185 2 bar map - 50-90
tt fuel pump - 90
plugs wires - 200
Piping for basic step up - 50-100

Total - $780 -$920

5sfte mild build up:

185 ct26 turbo - 200
185 exhaust manifold - 60-90
185 oil pan - 60
7mge injectors - 70-90
185 2 bar map - 50-90
tt fuel pump - 90
plugs wires - 200
MSD6a - 150
MSD BTM - 175-200
Vortec FMU - 150
FMIC - 200-400
Piping w/couplers - 200-300
BOV - 50-150
Misc - 500

Total - $2205 - $2630

thats a difference of $1945 - $2720 that could be used on internals, mr2t tranny clutch, Boost controller and other parts for the 5sfte build up.. and I lowballed alot of the parts for the 3sgte... I personally had almost DOUBLE those numbers into my swap.

I gave average prices for the 5sfte stuff.. like the 185 parts... I am pickin up a 30k JDM CT26, manifold and oil pan this weekend for $275 so you can get the parts for cheaper wink.gif

as for the AWD stuff... we have covered all that MORE times than I can even remember.. im not goin threw it agian for your viewing pleasure wink.gif

and if you dont wanna take my advice on things... well thats fine I never asked you too.. thats why its advice

Thats the point I have been trying to make.. you can do ALOT more with the same or even less amount of money to the 5sfte than the 3sgte... granted you have to know what you doing... frankly I am amazed that the 5sfe can handle 13lbs but if It can take it great... give me hope about not having probs with the 6-8 lbs I plan on running soon.


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post Nov 10, 2004 - 8:12 PM
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lagos



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185 clip - 2000-2500 - yep thats correct
MRT2 Tranny - 800-1000 - i, and many others are using the stock GT tranny
motor mounts - Appox 200 - u dont need them if u have a GT
Halfshafts camary/mr2 - 200-300 - dont need unless using mr2 tranny
FMIC - 200-400 = yep thats about what the go for
Piping w/couplers - 200-300- correct
BOV - 50-150 - dont really need it, but its a fun toy
Misc - 500 - tools engine lift etc...


$2950-3850 - this is t he ballpark figure i spent on my swap

sell awd tranny from clip -200
sell 5sfe..depending on condition -300-900
sell alltrac hood... 300-450
sell misc alltrac parts 100-300

after selling all that stuff off the price starts to come down.

the Baic 5sfte kit is not a good idea imho.

5sfte mild build up... is the better way to go if you are doing a 5sfte. its very important to control timing with the btm. this is my theory as to why itchyb still has a running engine.

what ever choice people decide, you have to consider the goal: A Turbo 6th gen. a swap will give u that, and a 5sfTe will too. choose not based on cost, but on what you think will give you the best, most realiable setup. if you feel a 5sfTe will do that....great, but do it right and dont expect a 750$ invstment to be realiable. if you go for the swap, spend the extra bucks to fully tune up your engine, and all that stuff.

This post has been edited by lagos: Nov 10, 2004 - 8:14 PM


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post Nov 10, 2004 - 9:23 PM
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x_itchy_b_x



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come on though if we didnt base things on price we'd all live in huge houses and drive bmw's... money owns me.


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post Nov 10, 2004 - 9:29 PM
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NEVERSTOP

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QUOTE
come on though if we didnt base things on price we'd all live in huge houses and drive bmw's... money owns me.


HAHAHHAHHA


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99 project version 3.0.. hello SEMA 2010 =)
post Nov 11, 2004 - 2:00 AM
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t-spoon

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Just FYI, the 3sgte can in fact handle more than 1bar reliably (as reliably as anything is with a turboed car anyway). I run 15 daily, two other guys in town run 17 daily, it's not that uncommon. The limitation is in fact the turbo itself, CT26 seals just don't like to go higher boost, the turbo is not efficient at those levels, pushing a lot of hot air for less good. When you have an a different turbo that's more efficient and can safely run the boost like Hyde, that's not as much of an issue. For the cracking pistons, with the stock turbo it's hard to exhaust the stock fuel system, at 17 psi it's probably got the injectors working at a high duty cycle, but unless they fail, lean isn't likely. There are a couple of easy precautions, namely sticking an egt probe in exhaust manifold runner 3 which, as we all well know, is the cylinder that will go lean first due to the 3s intake manifold design. You have that backup and it's easy enough to back off as soon as EGTs get a bit higher than they should.

To put it simply, the 3s is a pre-engineered Turbo setup. No guessing if you leave it basically stock. The 5s is EXTREMELY well engineered in its own right, but not as a turbo motor. That doesn't mean it can't be turbo'ed well, it just means you have a lot of things to take care of that you don't with the 3s. There's no better or more cost effective way IMO, they both are expensive to do RIGHT and they both can yield extremely good results. I've owned 2 MR2s (a 93 with 190k miles, a 91 with 173k miles which I have still) and an Alltrac (90 with 123k miles) as well as a 94 Celi GT which has had internals built in preparation to a 5sfte project I haven't got around to completing yet. I can tell you I sunk a lot of money into every single car. Each car had its own quirks, and building up the 5sfe wasn't as cheap as it should of been, quite simply because things can happen that you can't predict, as happened with me. By the same token, another guy who is trying to swap got a bad motor to start with and is having problems. Whichever way you choose, choose with knowlege, not with what's going to be "cheaper" or "better", choose what's going to be what you wanted out of the car, each setup has strengths and weaknesses. I think it's pretty poor form that some of you have yet again devolved the discussion into a which is better argument. It's pointless and counterproductive, try laying the information out objectively without tossing in opinions to try to steer people one way or another. If someone wants to 5sfte, give them the information or just stay out of it. If they want to swap, again, info or hush. IMO that's the only reasonable way to approach it.

BTW, those dyno numbers look great, I do recommend an EGT probe in runner 3 and a good gauge to keep an eye on things smile.gif
post Nov 11, 2004 - 11:59 AM
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OOBE

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Dude, back home (Puero Rico), there's more people running fast on non-turbo deuces than turbo ones. They either boost the hell out of them until the engine gives up (15 PSI and they last a while), or they stuff it with forged internals. I'm not kidding here, I've seen more 400+ WHP non-turbo deuces than turbo ones. Down there, the 5S-FE is the prefered platform for going fast. Weird, huh? tongue.gif


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Past - 7A-FTE: Will never forget you
Present - 3rd Gen 3S-GTE: Swap in progress
QUOTE (SinisterSinner @ Dec 19, 2009 - 10:52 AM) *
I dont want to even think of turbos, they blow up way too often...
post Nov 11, 2004 - 12:58 PM
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celicarocker

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QUOTE (x_itchy_b_x @ Nov 10, 2004 - 10:23 PM)
come on though if we didnt base things on price we'd all live in huge houses and drive bmw's... money owns me.

BTM out of LEGOS man.... cant go wrong...


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post Nov 11, 2004 - 1:14 PM
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Supersprynt



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QUOTE (SlowCelica94 @ Nov 10, 2004 - 2:06 AM)
superspirt

Superspirt?

How come nobody ever remembers that part?

Haha j/k wink.gif Thanks man.


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post Nov 14, 2004 - 3:07 AM
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ST204no2

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QUOTE(SlowCelica94 @ Nov 10, 2004 - 2:01 AM)
So the arugment is sorta like this. 3s is better. But for the money you spend swapping in a 3s, you could build a better 5s. Ok. Prove it. No, don't actually do it, i wanna know now. Price it out. You prove to me there's even strong enough aftermarket support for the 5S to do it.
[right][snapback]205672[/snapback][/right]


I Completed a buildup of a 5sfe Motor tuned for No2, this April Forged Oversized lowcompression pistons, forged rods, ballenced crank, reman head, and early series head gskt. So far has been Very reliable, daily driven car. two things became apparent
one, because of the angle of the engine in the mounts the front side of the block tends to wear faster ovaling the bore[due to less oil from the pump ]. hence the oversize pistons. two, with the narrow with of the head the twin cams are a real pain to work with[as well as limiting airflow](don't flame me over this its just an observation). I've been working on a prototype Motor useing the 5sfe block and reworking a 89' 3sge head
has anyone tried this? In theory the Higher flowing head If tuned properly will produce more horse power over all {especially if turboed} Combined with the higher torque of the 2.2l block. I heard of versions of this mainly using the 3sgte and stroking it or combining th two. btw the Source for 5sfe parts is Raceeng.com
post Nov 14, 2004 - 4:27 AM
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CheesyLobster



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Get a 3sgte and bore it. There you got a engine thats ment for turbo with the displacement of a 5sfe.
post Nov 14, 2004 - 11:58 AM
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x_itchy_b_x



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the idea is to do sumthing new and creative though.


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post Nov 14, 2004 - 3:48 PM
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chucho



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Good job, hope it keeps going strong for ya smile.gif I wanted to do this too but decided i need to buy a 2nd car if I was going to turbo the celi
post Nov 14, 2004 - 10:30 PM
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Doge



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QUOTE
Get a 3sgte and bore it. There you got a engine thats ment for turbo with the displacement of a 5sfe.


Adding a 5s block to the 3s head is a better idea for stroking. The 5s block is stronger.. and the crank is more beefy.
post Nov 15, 2004 - 5:09 AM
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ST204no2

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QUOTE(Doge @ Nov 14, 2004 - 10:30 PM)
QUOTE
Get a 3sgte and bore it. There you got a engine thats ment for turbo with the displacement of a 5sfe.


Adding a 5s block to the 3s head is a better idea for stroking. The 5s block is stronger.. and the crank is more beefy.
[right][snapback]206731[/snapback][/right]


I don't think tha block is any stronger... But the advantages are you can continue to use the crank sensor for the later obd2 ecu with no modification. bore and build the 5sfe block and get the better flowing head. If you use the correct pistons[available online] Turboing is not a problem.
post Dec 9, 2004 - 12:24 AM
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Punch



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thats a good idea

This post has been edited by Punch: Dec 9, 2004 - 12:25 AM

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