Body Roll, FWD Roll Options

[CrazyJ]

After reading the now closed "body roll" topic I just want to add that I can make my 94 SSII JDM 2.0 Celica (3sge) drift around a round-a-bout (these simplify big junctions in the uk)...

I was doing about 20mph driving like miss daisy in third gear barely touching the acceleration and my back end came right out whilst on a 2/3 lock of the wheel to the right.... It came out so bad I drifted the last 1/3 of the round-a-bout off to my exit... very cool and extremely scary....any doubters and I will take you for a spin myself (if you live near of course) and er prove it...

Any I was defo driving carefully because the missis was in the car...

I have had the front shocks changed and the anti roll bar bushes since, also waiting for the cv joints to be changed,.. I can still make it do it but have to work harder now.

just for the record.

Cheers

J

[Kwanza26]

why are you even brining back this subject? Some people just aren't very smart. I don't even wanna start. It's like talking to a brick wall sometimes. Even if I can explain with perfect clearity... if people wanna be badass drifters with FWD cars... they're gonna be... and there's no changing that. I raced a 94 Celica for 3 years from when I was 15-18 and I've NEVER had any "verycool tail sliding" scenarios... but then again... I also drive FR cars (87 RX7 back in the day and currently AE86 Corollas) so I know the difference.

As for your explaination... if you're gonna tell me you're "drifting" at 20mph in 3rd gear... heh... heh... ok buddy. Whatever you say. You know... Mid engine cars have trouble doing that in the wet...

[playr158]

ha ha kwanza.......
ok since your mostly a noob and not that into your car.....

sway bars (suspension tech)
coilovers (GC, arospeed, TEIN)
shocks(KONI, KYB)
strut tower bars(DG.TOYOTA.dodgeneon)

[CrazyJ]

Dude, its not my intention to bring it back up. Simply to let others know I have had the experience. I'm not doubting your experience either but just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

It could be any number of things on my car that caused it. No doubt something is broken that caused it (im pretty sure the car was used for rally track days prior to me getting it).

And as for my terminology,.. who cares,. skidding sliding drifting loose tail. Either way the car was at a harsh angle not usually driven at whilst doing 20mph. Im not stupid I know thats not right. But it happened.

So thanks for the VERY helpful reply.

Jase

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

http://www.tuner-world.com/drivetips_6.html

[playr158]

lol if your car was used for RALLY then you'd OBVIOUSLY have better suspension ect... that would not let you do the slide at 20

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

Could happen if he hit a pach of gravel, dirt, or something. I understand that some poeple will post BS, but I think it's important to give poeple the beifit of the doubt. Can't we all just get along?

[Kwanza26]

Could happen if he hit a pach of gravel, dirt, or something.  I understand that some poeple will post BS, but I think it's important to give poeple the beifit of the doubt.  Can't we all just get along?
[right][snapback]219511[/snapback][/right]

Benefit of the doubt is given if it makes sense. 20mph drift in 3rd gear doesn't make sense in any car...

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

Could happen if he hit a pach of gravel, dirt, or something.  I understand that some poeple will post BS, but I think it's important to give poeple the beifit of the doubt.  Can't we all just get along?
[right][snapback]219511[/snapback][/right]

Benefit of the doubt is given if it makes sense. 20mph drift in 3rd gear doesn't make sense in any car...
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Why you hatin?

[Kwanza26]

Why you hatin?  
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I don't hate... I'm just annoyed by people trying to follow the new trends and go "drifting" in their FWD cars... I help run a shop so I get it constantly...

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

Drifting is still the "in thing?" I thought that fad played its coarse aready. Shoot, I love the stuff, I had a 88 RX-7 that I dirt raced and sometimes drifted(non-event). As long as it's all in good fun. This fad will be over just as quick and the aluminum wing craze, so try to relax about man. Your getting to worked up over a few ingorant poeple. Poeple like that haven't loved cars their intire lives, and won't forever. There just not real car poeple, which means they don't matter.

[Kwanza26]

Drifting is still the "in thing?"  I thought that fad played its coarse aready. Shoot, I love the stuff, I had a 88 RX-7 that I dirt raced and sometimes drifted(non-event).  As long as it's all in good fun.  This fad will be over just as quick and the aluminum wing craze, so try to relax about man.  Your getting to worked up over a few ingorant poeple.  Poeple like that haven't loved cars their intire lives, and won't forever.  There just not real car poeple, which means they don't matter.
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It's not that I get pissed or anything like that. Typically it all starts with me saying something as simple as "FWD cars don't tail slide like that" and then it blows up from there. This topic however was a blatant and stupid attempt to carry on an argument that obviously pissed off a quite a few people on both ends, hence it was locked. It's not neccesary and I don't even want to waste my time to explain to the person who started this topic. That's all.

As for drifting... I dunno how it is where you live... but drifting is only gonna get bigger. I deal with performance imports and so-called "drifter cars" are beginning to replace the common FF import. Also notice import magazines now cover the popular drift cars (240sx, etc) as much as they cover the typical Honda. It's growing. I personally think drifting is a fun thing to do and requires very high driving skill levels, however is still not a proven race technique (on pavement anyway). The sad thing is, most of the so-called tail sliding people still drive FF cars or have very poor FR driving skills. When people don't know enough how different drivetrain layouts react... it's just annoying to hear them claim things such as tail sliding around a corner and drifting at 20 mph in 3rd gear with an FF car, which typically don't react like that.

[RedSunCelica]

are you sure the back end was sliding and not the front end? kinda hard to believe that the back end will do that in 3rd at 20mph.

even in heavy rain it wont happen. im pretty sure you where understeering thru the corner steering got light and it felt like you where drifting. either way i say we have a 6gc track day at willow springs race way whos with me

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

I'm for it. I'd like to see how I race on pavement. I'm probably not that good, but it's all about having a good time. I've wanted to take my car to the track even before I had it. Anyone know any good tracks in WV? I'm going to post that as a new topic in general, so don't feel obligated to answer it here.

[playr158]

ok if i remember correctly the RPM at 20 mph in 3rd is like ummm under 2000?

WHO THE HELL CAN SPIN A TIRE AT 2000RPM iN a 6th GEN celi?!?!?!?!?!

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

Come on guys, let him alone. He obviously doesn't have all his facts in line, but he could just be mistaken on a few things instead of intentionally lying to us. I no his story doesn't make since, but he is new to this site. He joined dec6 of 2004. I know that’s no excuse, but because he's so new to the site, it makes me think that he's probably pretty young. And I think we can all remember a time when we were young and..... well...not as with it (sorry CrazyJ).

[CrazyJ]

Some interesting facts in those replies. It could of potentially been the front wheels sliding then the back just followed. But the first time it happened the rear did come out (since then I have had the rear toe and thrust line corrected).

Bulldog, thought it may have been oil, gravel or something on the road, but before I had the adjustments it did it on any road (if it was atleast damp and it was a right turn).

I tried to recreate the problem the other day and again at quite a low speed again far right exit on a different roundabout it seemed the road turned to glass, because I was expecting this it was corrected quickly but the back end did NOT come out this time the whole car just slid. So I guess that was the rear toe.

This has only happened when turning right, and its nothing to do with speed, its to do with how far I turn the wheel. It seems a lot easier to turn to the right, than to the left. And when turning to the left I have really pushed it and she sticks like glue.

I'm not trying to pi$$ anyone off btw, this is for mine and my familys safety in the car, nothing to do with anyones sanity...

Oh and dont doubt my love for the car please. (she might hear you).

Jase

[doGGy]

here goes my story...

At first then i bought my celica (compleatly stock, on stock 15 steeles), i almost crashed it like 3 times, and this was just becose my tail was sliding so bad, that i didnt knew what to do... It wasnt drifting, but the tail of my car was so light, that after few sharp turns of the wheel on gravel i could drift to the outside of the corner so easy not even using my handbrake... same happend on normal roads.. few times i came to sharp to the corner and tail just slided, leaving my car at 35' angle in the corner... it was no fun at all, i was just sceard cuz of not being able to control then my there my car gonna go control... In winter it was fun, cuz i ould drift (yes kwanza DRIFT ) any corners i wanted without handbrake...just few sharp turns of the steering wheel, and tail just slided easily...

It all ended then i lowered my car, and put the 225/45 on... from what day, i can do crazy speed corners without been sceard of my tail sliding away... only thing that im sceard what my front or whole car will lose grip and i will end up at safty bariers...

[Kwanza26]

here goes my story...

At first then i bought my celica (compleatly stock, on stock 15 steeles),  i almost crashed it like 3 times, and this was just becose my tail was sliding so bad, that i didnt knew what to do... It wasnt drifting, but the tail of my car was so light, that after few sharp turns of the wheel on gravel i could drift to the outside of the corner so easy not even using my handbrake... same happend on normal roads.. few times i came to sharp to the corner and tail just slided, leaving my car at 35' angle in the corner... it was no fun at all, i was just sceard cuz of not being able to control then my there my car gonna go control... In winter it was fun, cuz i ould drift (yes kwanza DRIFT ) any corners i wanted without handbrake...just few sharp turns of the steering wheel, and tail just slided easily...

It all ended then i lowered my car, and put the 225/45 on... from what day, i can do crazy speed corners without been sceard of my tail sliding away... only thing that im sceard what my front or whole car will lose grip and i will end up at safty bariers...
[right][snapback]221682[/snapback][/right]

I just keep repeating the same sh!t over and over so it's becoming pointless. I've driven cars to the brink and even destroyed one and I assure you, getting the tail to slide is not an easy task. Dry pavement makes it a completely different game (I've said this I don't know how many times)... snow is easy, gravel and dirt is easy because you don't have to set on the gas to continue the slide. You can tap it. Pavement, well, any attempts at major throttle control will cause the front to increase grip and understeer. No throttle control will cause loss of speed and result in grip (spin-out of understeer). *Sigh*... I need to get on a track and demonstrate. That'll be the only way you people can know the differences...

[pimpstarr690]

Dude...simple just slap some coil over's and front n' rear srut bars....slam your car to the ground...I slammed mine 4 inches but no aftermarket srut bars...Dropping it really improves the handling...taking corner's at higher speeds....mmmm lol =)

~doggy...good luck with your drifting...i bet you'll slam into something because when you turn...that's if you turn you'll just slide....The lil blizzard thing we just had the other day in Ohio I went to turn but turning was not an option...I found it very usefull to drift every turn so that I could make it completely...

This post has been edited by pimpstarr690: Dec 15, 2004 - 3:11 PM

[doGGy]

I know what you talking about Kwanza. I'v been on the track, done AutoX, and i love driving, so i know what im talkinb bout too.. Im not saying what i was drifting like crazy in my car at 20 mph.. it was just like this, then i changed lanes i jumped from right lane to left on a really slow corner, and i saw few cars in the left lane so practicly after 1 sec, i turned my wheel back to the right lane, and the tail just lost the grip, the point is what then i changed to the left lane and then i saw cars, i braked a bit, so this could iniciate the tail slide then i turned to the right...

Another thing, was in winter, then i got out of the road didnt even knowing what happend.

It was night and i was driving home, doing about 45 mph, in front of me there was a truck traveling my way, so i turned to the right a bit, just to make clear what he wount hit me, and at the same time i changed from 4 to 3 gear just in case.. road was pure snow. and then i let the clutch of after changing gears, my tail just started sliding (road there wasnt straigh, and it was small uphill, and it was really easy right turn)...

And youare saing that its not and easy task to make the tail slide on paivmen...Well then i will ask you, how do you think, if i was doing like 40 mph, on a straight road, right lane, turned my wheels sharply to the left and after this turned my wheels to the right and braked for a few second ? What would happend? I think what a good driver could make his tail lose grip like this 8 times from 10...

Im just asking, dont wanna get the s!it going, im not trying to argumentate, and im just telling the story HOW and what happend...

~doggy...good luck with your drifting...i bet you'll slam into something because when you turn...that's if you turn you'll just slide....The lil blizzard thing we just had the other day in Ohio I went to turn but turning was not an option...I found it very usefull to drift every turn so that I could make it completely...

Slammed my 2 cars before, same story, cornering at high speed... Lost control with my corolla (winter, but road was kinda clear) and ended up on the sidwalk, 2 wheels damaged, and some suspension damage... Thanks fro wishing me to get the same result in celica...

here goes my story...

At first then i bought my celica (compleatly stock, on stock 15 steeles),  i almost crashed it like 3 times, and this was just becose my tail was sliding so bad, that i didnt knew what to do... It wasnt drifting, but the tail of my car was so light, that after few sharp turns of the wheel on gravel i could drift to the outside of the corner so easy not even using my handbrake... same happend on normal roads.. few times i came to sharp to the corner and tail just slided, leaving my car at 35' angle in the corner... it was no fun at all, i was just sceard cuz of not being able to control then my there my car gonna go control... In winter it was fun, cuz i ould drift (yes kwanza DRIFT ) any corners i wanted without handbrake...just few sharp turns of the steering wheel, and tail just slided easily...

It all ended then i lowered my car, and put the 225/45 on... from what day, i can do crazy speed corners without been sceard of my tail sliding away... only thing that im sceard what my front or whole car will lose grip and i will end up at safty bariers...
[right][snapback]221682[/snapback][/right]

I just keep repeating the same sh!t over and over so it's becoming pointless. I've driven cars to the brink and even destroyed one and I assure you, getting the tail to slide is not an easy task. Dry pavement makes it a completely different game (I've said this I don't know how many times)... snow is easy, gravel and dirt is easy because you don't have to set on the gas to continue the slide. You can tap it. Pavement, well, any attempts at major throttle control will cause the front to increase grip and understeer. No throttle control will cause loss of speed and result in grip (spin-out of understeer). *Sigh*... I need to get on a track and demonstrate. That'll be the only way you people can know the differences...
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This post has been edited by doGGy: Dec 16, 2004 - 2:05 AM

[Kwanza26]

And youare saing that its not and easy task to make the tail slide on paivmen...Well then i will ask you, how do you think, if i was doing like 40 mph, on a straight road, right lane, turned my wheels sharply to the left  and after this turned my wheels to the right and braked for a few second ? What would happend? I think what a good driver could make his tail lose grip like this 8 times from 10...

Im just asking, dont wanna get the s!it going, im not trying to argumentate, and im just telling the story HOW and what happend...
[right][snapback]222163[/snapback][/right]

KamiX and I went over this dozens of times also... but to make this technique work on pavement for a FWD car requires a whole lot more speed than 40mph and it still won't work the way you're describing it... The thing is, regardless of weight shifts, the front is pulling the rear. The rear will follow the front no matter what. It just doesn't work like what you *think* or what people *think* it should. The rear may skip out for a second or two, but as soon as the front start gripping, the rear follows. There's simply too much grip on pavement.
Basically there are a few things that can happen. An unexperienced driver will panic, tap the brakes and spin out. A controlled driver will let the car slide through without touching anything... in that case, the car will eventually slow down, regain grip and understeer or spin out (depends on angle of car). An experienced driver may want to step on the gas to induce grip to the front causeing the car to understeer and then attempt to control the understeer. An experienced and controlled driver will control the throttle, brakes and allow the car to correct itself normally. There are really no scenarios where a FWD car can hold a tight angle and allow the tail to slide for more than a few split seconds.
Say for example, during a hard corner entry into a right hand turn and you do the feint technique, all of the weight will be carried to the front left-hand side of the car. The feint technique is used to point the front in the direction you want to go and hold front grip. This also has the effect of weight shifting to the outside front... Even with weight off of the rear wheels, there is NOTHING to drive them and push them out, to cause a tail slide... inertia won't do it because the car is already moving at a steady pace in that direction. They're simply following the front. There may be some cases where the rear is unstable and skips about, but in a FWD car, the rear rarely comes out on its own. From there, any of the events I've tried to describe above can happen depending on the driver.

And again... cannot compare sliding in the snow to pavement.

[doGGy]

Period.
Compleatly true, and there is nothing to add.

And youare saing that its not and easy task to make the tail slide on paivmen...Well then i will ask you, how do you think, if i was doing like 40 mph, on a straight road, right lane, turned my wheels sharply to the left  and after this turned my wheels to the right and braked for a few second ? What would happend? I think what a good driver could make his tail lose grip like this 8 times from 10...

Im just asking, dont wanna get the s!it going, im not trying to argumentate, and im just telling the story HOW and what happend...
[right][snapback]222163[/snapback][/right]

KamiX and I went over this dozens of times also... but to make this technique work on pavement for a FWD car requires a whole lot more speed than 40mph and it still won't work the way you're describing it... The thing is, regardless of weight shifts, the front is pulling the rear. The rear will follow the front no matter what. It just doesn't work like what you *think* or what people *think* it should. The rear may skip out for a second or two, but as soon as the front start gripping, the rear follows. There's simply too much grip on pavement.
Basically there are a few things that can happen. An unexperienced driver will panic, tap the brakes and spin out. A controlled driver will let the car slide through without touching anything... in that case, the car will eventually slow down, regain grip and understeer or spin out (depends on angle of car). An experienced driver may want to step on the gas to induce grip to the front causeing the car to understeer and then attempt to control the understeer. An experienced and controlled driver will control the throttle, brakes and allow the car to correct itself normally. There are really no scenarios where a FWD car can hold a tight angle and allow the tail to slide for more than a few split seconds.
Say for example, during a hard corner entry into a right hand turn and you do the feint technique, all of the weight will be carried to the front left-hand side of the car. The feint technique is used to point the front in the direction you want to go and hold front grip. This also has the effect of weight shifting to the outside front... Even with weight off of the rear wheels, there is NOTHING to drive them and push them out, to cause a tail slide... inertia won't do it because the car is already moving at a steady pace in that direction. They're simply following the front. There may be some cases where the rear is unstable and skips about, but in a FWD car, the rear rarely comes out on its own. From there, any of the events I've tried to describe above can happen depending on the driver.

And again... cannot compare sliding in the snow to pavement.
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[RedSunCelica]

Period.
Compleatly true, and there is nothing to add.

And youare saing that its not and easy task to make the tail slide on paivmen...Well then i will ask you, how do you think, if i was doing like 40 mph, on a straight road, right lane, turned my wheels sharply to the left  and after this turned my wheels to the right and braked for a few second ? What would happend? I think what a good driver could make his tail lose grip like this 8 times from 10...

Im just asking, dont wanna get the s!it going, im not trying to argumentate, and im just telling the story HOW and what happend...
[right][snapback]222163[/snapback][/right]

KamiX and I went over this dozens of times also... but to make this technique work on pavement for a FWD car requires a whole lot more speed than 40mph and it still won't work the way you're describing it... The thing is, regardless of weight shifts, the front is pulling the rear. The rear will follow the front no matter what. It just doesn't work like what you *think* or what people *think* it should. The rear may skip out for a second or two, but as soon as the front start gripping, the rear follows. There's simply too much grip on pavement.
Basically there are a few things that can happen. An unexperienced driver will panic, tap the brakes and spin out. A controlled driver will let the car slide through without touching anything... in that case, the car will eventually slow down, regain grip and understeer or spin out (depends on angle of car). An experienced driver may want to step on the gas to induce grip to the front causeing the car to understeer and then attempt to control the understeer. An experienced and controlled driver will control the throttle, brakes and allow the car to correct itself normally. There are really no scenarios where a FWD car can hold a tight angle and allow the tail to slide for more than a few split seconds.
Say for example, during a hard corner entry into a right hand turn and you do the feint technique, all of the weight will be carried to the front left-hand side of the car. The feint technique is used to point the front in the direction you want to go and hold front grip. This also has the effect of weight shifting to the outside front... Even with weight off of the rear wheels, there is NOTHING to drive them and push them out, to cause a tail slide... inertia won't do it because the car is already moving at a steady pace in that direction. They're simply following the front. There may be some cases where the rear is unstable and skips about, but in a FWD car, the rear rarely comes out on its own. From there, any of the events I've tried to describe above can happen depending on the driver.

And again... cannot compare sliding in the snow to pavement.
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[right][snapback]222316[/snapback][/right]

i nominate this thread to be locked whos with me ........ jk

[CrazyJ]

just to let you all know this issue has now been resolved.

once the cv joint was replaced the hold to the right came straight back.

Cheers

J

[blackbullet]

well as for you guys.. not to be crap talking... i tried to corner my cars a couple of times to see how my steering was.. my car is completely stock and not even drop... it didn't even skid or slide.. even though there was dirt on the road... i was trying a 25mph in 2nd gear pulling my e-brake... well i made it and as i was sliding i punched it a little and it kind of swirved a little left and right just like doing a burn out... i have also done turns at 30 or so and it does not skid at all... well thats my story.. no offense to anyone... please don't say anything about my story OK.. no more **** talkin....

[turboinduction]

Yea, I'm with you Blackbullet. My celica is by far the best FF handling car I've ever driven. Wouldn't really slip out stock. I'd have to be heavy on the right foot to cause some understeer (granted, I've been driving forever and I how to control a car). Then with the suspension mods and putting some 19 inch rubber underneath. Hell the car wont slip. On dry payment using techniques to control understeer, I can rival speeds and corners that my old AWD Eclipse would take. All in all, i'm very impressed with the car. Now fun parts -

Dont like bodyroll kids - get sway bars
Wanna turn faster - get a drop and better grip tires
Wanna hold those tires down - get a strut bar in front and rear for fun!
Still need more - Slap yourself, your in a FF


ahhh Kwanza, what are we gonna do. Drifting an FF. God I love this topic. Drifting is a process of braking all the wheels loose on a car but control the speed force and oversteer with the throttle for the REAR wheels and controling the direction with the steering wheel for the front wheels. Even if you break the back end loose on a FF (front engine, front wheel drive for you n00bs), you can only do 2 things. 1. Speed up, spinning the front wheels and having the back end slide a little bit until it reaches enough friction to regain grip and slide back or completely spin you out. 2. Slow down, which will result with both front and rear wheels regaining grip and returning. A FWD "drift" only last 3 or 4 seconds. If you've gone any longer, Inertia is causing the drift, not you. The reason you cant drift a FF is because you cant power the back wheels. Since theres no power back there, the wont be spinning. Since they wont be spinning, they will regain grip! Also a FF car only goes in the direction that the front wheels are pointing. Kindof hard to do drift if you gotta go in the direction of the wheels. Moreorless, you'd understeer and crash. So please, I love my Celica. I like FF's. I even pull that e-brake on snow and whip that rear around sometimes, but I cant drift it. Cant. Period. Done. Fin. End. Credits.

-Ti

[doGGy]

Cant. Period. Done. Fin. End. Credits.

Welcojme to last week We already made statments of this topic

But ya you are right...Cant. Period. Done. Fin. End. Credits.

[sous710]

haha i drift all the time on dry pavement at 20 mph. yes it is possible. dont believe me try it your self. go to mcdonalds/burger king. get yourself a pair of plastic trays they give you food on. go out to your car and place them behind the rear wheels. back up about six inches and pull your hand brake. now the trays are locked under your wheels. make sure it is an open parking lot. if so drive 20mph and crank the wheel. bam your tail end is going crazy. so haha you can drift at 20 mph. lol

[parriehunter]

^^^^^^ how old are you? My mates did in there fwds (parents cars) back in high school, about 7 years ago. that was before "drifting" became "cool" here in NZ.

they found it actually works better on gravel.ie drive way.

[sous710]

lol 19

[playr158]

for digging this thread up and posting that....

you should be banned

[chucho]

man '04 I havent seen those names in awhile

[Kwanza26]

Hehehehehehe.... this thread is full of funny

[Euphoria]

I have a little experience as I had both a front engined rear wheel and front engined front wheel, yes 2 times I have felt the back go out in the celica around a wet round about and a wet twisty road, both times were from taking my foot of the accelerator (lift off oversteer) as for dry weather on tar I have never felt the back go out, even on a track day I did a scandanaven flick and the celica didn't like it at all it just tried to grip, like people have said you just cant "drift" a front wheel drive, yes you can do a handbrakee or power slides but you can keep a continual drift.

In my rear wheel drive I only tried to drift it a few times and obviously much easier to drift than a front wheel drive as you can keep the drift in motion and it being continual, even in the wet in a straight line you can floor it in a straight line and the back will come out.

If you have good tyres you should get rare oversteer especially in a stock celica.