First race in the 3s, Acura Integra Type R Options

[jgreening]

It was this morning very early before work. The roads were deserted. My buddy has a 2000 Type R with only a comptech exhaust. We raced for about 4 blocks. In a nutshell, he killed me off the line and was ahead by almost a full car length. From about the first 1/2 block to the finish my car was faster but I lost by about 2-3 feet. 1 more block and I would have won.

This post has been edited by jgreening: Dec 23, 2004 - 4:53 PM

[Supersprynt]

Well thats disappointing, how much does ur car weigh?

[neoklis]

its not a matter of weight anymore. Its a matter of traction and experience now. As you can see, the lanch is the most important thing in straight line racing.

Do you have LSD?

[junhus69]

What the hell?
How did you loose?
I can see you spinning of the line but you shoud have taken him the second you hit 3rd. What is this, is the 3sgte so crappy that a stock honda can beat it. If i was gonna dump 4-6k in my car i want it to kill almost anything on the road. No offense but you need to work long and hard on launches and get better tires. Is it really true 3s-gte's are this slow. And from your profile you have a 2nd gen what is this????

[Digndoug]

Theres a bunch of reasons. The type R, is like a cheap race car. It has a better tranny, longer gearing and less trq, so less wheel spin. and its prolly the same wight. Im sure he also has a lsd. The problem is that the 3s-gte is just putting down to much power.

[Supersprynt]

IDK with the MR2 tranny, the OEM LSD and Stage 3 your launch shoulda been immaculate.

And JunHus you sound real ignorant.

[Digndoug]

IDK with the MR2 tranny, the OEM LSD and Stage 3 your launch shoulda been immaculate.

And JunHus you sound real ignorant.
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Oh true i forgot u had the nice lsd.. hummm .. maybe just the better gear in the teg.

[Supersprynt]

JG what PSI are u pushing? Coulda just been simply out raced. ITRs are like 190? stock with simple mods 200?

[jgreening]

I had a bad launch and no wheel spin. I am running about 13psi right now. Also, the Type R is not a run of the mill Integra folks. Its 200hp at the crank with LSD. I figure I am about 190hp to the wheels with my mods but I weigh about 200lbs more with the 3s. It was clear the 3s was quicker - the driver just wasn't that good

[BBoYRuGGeD]

its all good... lose the battle but win the war

[Magic]

jgreening...those honda cars unleash their power on high rpms dude..and i am wondering how the hell he was infront of you from lunch....hmmm...is your car tuned?and of course its a race of "detail",a small mistake it can cost to you.I think if you work out a stradegy you can easily have him.... I m on your side my friend.............
LETS KICK SOME ASSS!!!!!!

[jgreening]

Magic:

My car is not "tuned" in the sense that I have any fuel management. The swap was recent and it got all the goodies that you would think of in terms of a "tune up" if thats what you mean (belts, hoses, plugs, wires, valve job, coolant flush, etc.).

I really think the reason I didn't win is because my launch was not aggressive. He beat me at the light and really nailed it. I babied the throttle at the start and was a half second slower at the light.

Jay.

[Clipsetuner]

Yeah from me and Ace Racing it is clear that the 3s is a monster but it has to be tammed via lanuching and know shift points. I practice all the time on my lanuch's and can typical get almost anyone on them, I just dont have the sheer power to get them (oo summer I cant wait!).

You do have to watcht the Honddooo's tho, they have no low-end but they scream at 6k plus all the way to 9-10k depending on how built it is.

My buddy has a stock B16A1 in a 95si hatch minor mods (intake, exhaust) and can hand STi's and EVO's there assets all day long because those little honda's wrap so high up.

DTE

[shid]

My buddy has a stock B16A1 in a 95si hatch minor mods (intake, exhaust) and can hand STi's and EVO's there assets all day long because those little honda's wrap so high up.

DTE
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I'm sure he does. Yup. I'm sure.

[Clipsetuner]

damm u shid!

well it is true, this is at the track too. Once I get a video camrea, or Doge comes with us more, well get some cool stuff.
DTE

[Nemises]

dont even sweat it. You gotta get used to your car anyway. You do have a faster car.

[Supersprynt]

You only have a faster car if you know how to drive it.

[Consynx]

look at it this way, if you had the corvette it wouldn't have even stood a chance in the rain

[jgreening]

You only have a faster car if you know how to drive it.

My launch was poor but that doesn't mean I don't know how to drive it. I am just a little tentative with my baby.

look at it this way, if you had the corvette it wouldn't have even stood a chance in the rain

ahhhh....don't remind me about that car.....

This post has been edited by jgreening: Dec 23, 2004 - 5:24 PM

[jojobombiest]

Wait... did I miss something? What happened to your corvette?

[Consynx]

he chose not to get it...
shhhhh

[Supersprynt]

You only have a faster car if you know how to drive it.

My launch was poor but that doesn't mean I don't know how to drive it. I am just a little tentative with my baby.

look at it this way, if you had the corvette it wouldn't have even stood a chance in the rain

ahhhh....don't remind me about that car.....
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I had a feeling you woulda taken it that way - it wasnt a personal thing towards you it was a generalization - didnt say you couldnt drive.

[jgreening]

I had a feeling you woulda taken it that way - it wasnt a personal thing towards you it was a generalization - didnt say you couldnt drive.

Now I am a bad driver and too sensitive....laughs.

[ghostdog]

no worries Jay. with that loss you now have some incentive to upgrade your 3s. and maybe learn to drive better while your at it

[jgreening]

LMAO

[shin]

my comment is, honda sucks.... i'm just a honda hater lol..... my friend owns a 01 integra GSR and he couldn't even catch up with me, widen the distance right from the start. so i guess you losing to the type R's just due to lack of experience. i totally believe that the 3sgte powered 6gc can easily smoke the type R.

[jgreening]

The GSR is not the Type R. At the time of original production, it had more hp per liter than any production car.

[Kwanza26]

It's very hard to launch with 200 ftlbs of torque... that's it. That's why you lost on the launch and that's what cause you to not catch him. Although the ITR is no joke... I think you should be able to take him with work on your launch. The power is there... but it can be rendered useless...

As for those Honda haters who know nothing about tuning a Honda... unless you know, don't try to act 'cool' by passing judgement. Namely shin... you're already out of your league when it comes to Honda tech, and your friend with his GSR probably can't drive for sh!t... so don't talk unless you can back things up. You only make yourself sound like an idiot assuming things.

[lagos]

hmmm thats strange that u lost. ive yet to run a honda that could keep up with me at 10psi. maby u have a boost leak?

at 13psi you shoud be well over 200whp. what rpm were u shifting at?

[jgreening]

I wonder how many of you folks have any experience with Type R's. It was a limited production vehicle - there only 1500 sold in the states in 2000. It is not anything like the GSR or other 'tegs.

hmmm thats strange that u lost. ive yet to run a honda that could keep up with me at 10psi. maby u have a boost leak?

at 13psi you shoud be well over 200whp. what rpm were u shifting at?

My car is running very well. I don't think there is a boost leak. If there was, I would imagine the guage would not read 13psi. As for what RPM I was shifting, I wasn't really watching my tach but I would guess somewhere between 6000 and 6500.

Again, it was clear that the 3s was quicker - the driver just didn't do as good of a job at the line.

I am really not sure what hp I have at that boost level. However, with both cats and 13psi, I think I am probably around 190-200whp. Its just a guess.

Regards, Jay

[Kwanza26]

I wonder how many of you folks have any experience with Type R's.  It was a limited production vehicle - there only 1500 sold in the states in 2000.  It is not anything like the GSR or other 'tegs. 
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I highly doubt anyone here has. I myself have only seen a couple, and driven swapped B18C5 Tegs/Civics, but have never had any hands on experience with the real ITR. It's almost a production racecar. Regardless... unless his engine is heavily modified, you should take him with practice. Like I said, 200 ft lbs of torque is not easy to control from a standstill.

[lagos]

jgreening, you would be amazed at hot tricky boost leak is. it can leak like a mofo and you gauge will still read normal. ive had to deal with that in my car before. but it must have been a drivers race, like u said.

most fast integras are low 15s maby high 14sec cars.

[Kwanza26]

most fast integras are low 15s maby high 14sec cars.
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I beg to differ... but then again, I come from a different tuning crowd...

[SlowCelica94]

hm, doesn't sound right. The itr is an high 14 car. The 3s celi should be able to do mid 14s. Something happened

[junhus69]

No offense to anyone here.

I may not know as much as all of you but i do know this.
This race was 100% a drivers race. If i was going to race my cousin's husband (he has a 03 viper RT/10) i have a chance of beating him if he stalls of the line with my celica. This guy just needs to learn how to manage his power, you have a really nice car. The Integra Type R is a really nice car but its not the ****, more like a piece of **** compared to a 3s-gte powered 6gc. Practice and race him again, i garuntee you wont be able to count the car lenghts between you at the finish!!!

[Kwanza26]

No offense to anyone here.

I may not know as much as all of you but i do know this.
This race was 100% a drivers race. If i was going to race my cousin's husband (he has a 03 viper RT/10) i have a chance of beating him if he stalls of the line with my celica. This guy just needs to learn how to manage his power, you have a really nice car. The Integra Type R is a really nice car but its not the ****, more like a piece of **** compared to a 3s-gte powered 6gc. Practice and race him again, i garuntee you wont be able to count the car lenghts between you at the finish!!!
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I do take offense to this. Why? don't call something sh!t because its image was bastardized by the import scene. You obviously know jack about the car in question and obviously are just blowing chow to sound cool. Who the hell are you to judge something as crap when your car, shall I say, a vast majority of our cars, are nothing compared to an ITR? I don't often see Honda people talk crap about Celicas... I'm curious why some people here are so ignorant and simply say "it sucks" without any knowledge or justification... If it being a ricer car or 'common' is your reason, a slow car with fancy exterior mods is more of a ricer any day than a riced out Integra with a B18C...

[95gtschick]

personally, I love honda's. wow so many people will hate me now. i chose between buying a civic, and a 6gc. i guess i chose the *right* one, there were just too many civics out here. anyway, my boyfriend owns a 99 ex, with a full edelbrock turbo kit. running at only 5psi he can beat 5 litre mustangs, and that's also with stock internals. honda's are great great great cars, they're soo freakin reliable, they last forever! i know of an accord that has like, 600000 miles on it, NEVER replaced anything major on it, ever. just regular tune-ups and oil changes and **** like that, and it's still goin fine. i just think it's stupid when people hate honda's for absolutely no reason. there really isn't much difference between toyota and honda. they make different cars, obviously, but when it comes down to it, they both make amazing vehicles. ..just thought i'd put my 2 cents in

[jojobombiest]

600000 miles
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six hundred thousand miles......................
You sure about that?

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

personally, I love honda's.  wow so many people will hate me now.  i chose between buying a civic, and a 6gc.  i guess i chose the *right* one, there were just too many civics out here.  anyway, my boyfriend owns a 99 ex, with a full edelbrock turbo kit.  running at only 5psi he can beat 5 litre mustangs, and that's also with stock internals.  honda's are great great great cars, they're soo freakin reliable, they last forever!  i know of an accord that has like, 600000 miles on it, NEVER replaced anything major on it, ever.  just regular tune-ups and oil changes and **** like that, and it's still goin fine.  i just think it's stupid when people hate honda's for absolutely no reason.  there really isn't much difference between toyota and honda.  they make different cars, obviously, but when it comes down to it, they both make amazing vehicles.  ..just thought i'd put my 2 cents in
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Word. Honda bashing is dumb....I have a friend with an all white '02 RSX with the full JDM Integra Type R exterior conversion, and Type R wheels, and I really like it. Also, the stock RSX K-series engine has so much pull and excitement to it when you really get on the throttle....its really a fun car to cruise around in with him. Makes me kinda jealous. If anything, I think the power delivery and feel of the engine is far smoother than most sports cars I've been in, so its not fair to bust on a Honda.

Personally, they arent my favorite....but before anybody says anything negative or positive about a car, you should first have some real-world experience on which to base your opinions.

[97sccelica]

ITR is a race car imo

LSD, 200hp, thinner body panels to save weight

the early ones in the US didnt have sunroof or AC i think

all those people that underestimate hondas need to go to a local 1/4 mile track and see NA hondas run low 13's all night long

RSX type S is my favorite honda. almost 20hp from just an intake on a NA 4cyl? man thats good

[Yota]

Can someone post a picture of the ITR that we're talking about? I don't think I've ever seen one.

How is the launch hard to handle on a 3s celi? Is torque steer an issue in this? What would be an idle launch rpm to obtain maximum performance in Jay's case (being that he has the LSD transmission)

[Kwanza26]

Can someone post a picture of the ITR that we're talking about?  I don't think I've ever seen one. 

How is the launch hard to handle on a 3s celi?  Is torque steer an issue in this?  What would be an idle launch rpm to obtain maximum performance in Jay's case (being that he has the LSD transmission)
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The late model DC3 (1994-2001 Integra) Type R is the one we're talking about. These came in 1997-2001 and had a model change over to the DC5 (RSX or JDM Integra) in late 2001-2002. Regardless, it was the ONLY Type R ever sold in the United States and was very limited.

As for launch and torque-steer... torque steer is only a problem for the amateurish driver. The LSD does help with the launch, but it's not something that is easily described with words. 200+ ft lbs of torque, boost/boost lag, rpm, throttle control, clutch control, there are many many things that can affect the launch of a FWD car with such low-end torque. I'm sure every person has their own technique... and I myself had problems launching a Neon SRT-4, so it's NOT easy. You can't just hold revs and dump the clutch.

[neoklis]

Its really a shame that we have this discussion/controversy about hondas. yes, they are fast but they are built differently. you can get any crappy car and make it fast but i would never even ride in a fast car that is either reliable or safe. in my country the government has just decided to triple (yes tripple) the car related fines due to the many deadly accidents. And i ask you, why should everyone pay because hondas are not safe? 80% of the deadly car accidents are with hondas, very rarely with toyotas and almost never with celis. come to think of it, i do not remember i ever heard of a deadly accident with a celi.

[95gtschick]

600000 miles
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yeah, i saw the odometer. it had 680,000km's.. so that's like, 570,000 miles, sorry rounded up . but yeah, it was crazy.

This post has been edited by 95gtschick: Dec 24, 2004 - 8:31 AM

[95gtschick]

oh and by the way, you can have a deadly accident with any vehicle. that's why it's called an accident. honda's are very very very safe vehicles, as are toyotas. but still, you can have an accident with any vehicle, there is no vehicle that keeps you safe from lets say.. a drunk driver! he'll still ram right into you no matter what you're driving

[95sweetness]

Hondas r always gonna be great and fast cars...no matter wat....they're amazin with their short gears n high end power... i have a friend with an 02 si..who just ran a 13.1 1/4 mile with a damn broken motor mount...thats insanely fast with just usin a rev hard turbo kit...he can easily be in the 12s once he fixes the motor mount n practice his launches...ooo 4got to mention thats only at 15 psi n stock internals

[hellsyphon]

Hondas are safe cars as are Toyotas. The only problem with Hondas is that it has a bad crowd. Granted there are alot of good people out there that are knowledgeable and have reason, but there is a even larger idiotic crowd. Those are the kids that think they are the **** and have no clue wtf their doing. They ask pointless questions and act and drive with complete disregard for anyone elses safety just so they can post on their forums that they owned a car. Hell, if I really wanted to "own" a car, I could do it walking. Just wait at a redlight and ask the other guy if they want to race and then i just run a couple of feet and OMG I just BURNED YOU HAHAHAHHAHA. I have nothing against Hondas and I have no idea why some of you guys are so biased against them as are Honda kids biased against Toyotas etc. I personally think they're amazing cars with great engineered engines that suit any crowd. I'd really like to see anyone else pump 300hp out of a 3.5L V6. Toyotas and Hondas both have their own qualities and if I ever owned another car that wasnt a Toyota it would be a Honda. Then again what do I know... thats just my opinion.

[junhus69]

No offense to anyone here.

I may not know as much as all of you but i do know this.
This race was 100% a drivers race. If i was going to race my cousin's husband (he has a 03 viper RT/10) i have a chance of beating him if he stalls of the line with my celica. This guy just needs to learn how to manage his power, you have a really nice car. The Integra Type R is a really nice car but its not the ****, more like a piece of **** compared to a 3s-gte powered 6gc. Practice and race him again, i garuntee you wont be able to count the car lenghts between you at the finish!!!
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I do take offense to this. Why? don't call something sh!t because its image was bastardized by the import scene. You obviously know jack about the car in question and obviously are just blowing chow to sound cool. Who the hell are you to judge something as crap when your car, shall I say, a vast majority of our cars, are nothing compared to an ITR? I don't often see Honda people talk crap about Celicas... I'm curious why some people here are so ignorant and simply say "it sucks" without any knowledge or justification... If it being a ricer car or 'common' is your reason, a slow car with fancy exterior mods is more of a ricer any day than a riced out Integra with a B18C...
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You state that i dont know anything about Hondas. I have A 2001 Acura TL as a daily driver. I have had a 02 Acura RSX from the dealer for a week when my cars tranny got reacalled and it was slow as hell. All these guys with there VETEC, well i have driven a bunch of the hondas and i have still yet to be amazed with this VETEC!. My favorite quote from one of my friends is, "Man when the VETEC kicked in i couldnt control the car man, it was so fast". This is pure bull i drive a honda everyday, get sick of it sometimes, its not as reliable as my 6gc but i go on the highway everyday and it is faster and a lot smoother.

[shid]

Way to compare your Acura TL to a 6gc for smoothness

[Kwanza26]

You state that i dont know anything about Hondas. I have A 2001 Acura TL as a daily driver. I have had a 02 Acura RSX from the dealer for a week when my cars tranny got reacalled and it was slow as hell. All these guys with there VETEC, well i have driven a bunch of the hondas and i have still yet to be amazed with this VETEC!. My favorite quote from one of my friends is, "Man when the VETEC kicked in i couldnt control the car man, it was so fast". This is pure bull i drive a honda everyday, get sick of it sometimes, its not as reliable as my 6gc but i go on the highway everyday and it is faster and a lot smoother.
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You're just making it worst for yourself man... You can't even spell VTEC right... It's pretty obvious you have little to NO knowledge about the technology so just shut it before I make you look like a dumb sh!t... There's no way you're gonna convince me short of an engine swap that a 6th gen Celica is faster, smoother, and overall better than an Acura TL or an RSX... that's just foolish.

Its really a shame that we have this discussion/controversy about hondas. yes, they are fast but they are built differently. you can get any crappy car and make it fast but i would never even ride in a fast car that is either reliable or safe. in my country the government has just decided to triple (yes tripple) the car related fines due to the many deadly accidents. And i ask you, why should everyone pay because hondas are not safe? 80% of the deadly car accidents are with hondas, very rarely with toyotas and almost never with celis. come to think of it, i do not remember i ever heard of a deadly accident with a celi.

Man... that's a terribly biased view. I don't know how life is on your island, but in the world, "accidents" are not distinguished by car make. It's a pretty pitiful argument blaming Hondas for everything. Any car can have an "accident" anytime. That's why they're called "ACCIDENTS"... That's probably the dumbest reason I've seen yet for someone to dislike Hondas. Again I say, go visit a Honda webboard and they rarely bash on Toyotas. Why is it so opposite on Toyota boards!? How can you, we, as a community, be so petty? sheesh....

This post has been edited by Kwanza26: Dec 24, 2004 - 1:47 PM

[jgreening]

These came in 1997-2001 and had a model change over to the DC5 (RSX or JDM Integra) in late 2001-2002. Regardless, it was the ONLY Type R ever sold in the United States and was very limited.

Actually, the 1999 was never released here. Only 97-98 and 00-01.

Can someone post a picture of the ITR that we're talking about? I don't think I've ever seen one.

Here is a link to a pic of a 2001 Type R (they only came in black, yellow and white):

Yellow 2001 Acura Integra Type R

[jgreening]

I wanted to add one more thing about my "race" if it wasn't already obvious. When we set out to test our cars, I didn't take it all that seriously. It was just a chance to run the cars side by side. I was careful not to spin my tires off the line or beat on the car too much. I was probably only mildly reving when we left the line and I let out my clutch slow enough that I didn't have any wheel spin. My buddy was much more agressive. Like I said he absolutely killed me off the line and it was definitely driver related.

[drdos]

wttf, how did you lose?

[hellsyphon]

wttf, how did you lose?
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lol... read the post above

[junhus69]

OK, in the end this was not a race for you in the 6gc but a race for him. It sounds like you were not trying to launch your car or trying to strain it at all. The Integra on the other hand was redline like there was no tomorrow. And for the comment made about my Acura, i was not comparring it to any 6gc, it is in a class by itself. That is comparing a 30k car to a 4k car. I like my celica because it is stick and a lot more fun to drive. The Acura is a luxury car that is smooth. The comment made about the Acura RSX is that it is slow as a mother in the lower RPM's but in the highet revs it does get speed but it does not make up for the lack of power in the lower RPM range. All Hondas are like that which i just dont like.

[Rjb23]

Honda's are nice cars and are fast. Ive driven a few of them, I drove a 2000 civic si and it far quicker than any stock 6gc. The new integra's are nice as hell and quick, the new 2k5 type s is one nice car. Stock it has 210 hp and 6 speed tranny, go test drive one sometime they are nice, you will want one after you drive it.

Of course the guy was close high reved, that is where vtec's make their power in the high revs. Also honda's gearing is just so much better than toyota's, first gear sucks but anything past that is better than toyota's gearing.

Also I don't know much about honda tuning but if its vtec I doubt you can run 15psi for any length of time and not blow your engine on stock internals. If he is boosting that much of with the right tires of course he is in the 13's that is about 310 hp on a light little car.

[95sweetness]

yea..he ran 15psi for the hell of it..c how wat he can get...n ya hes got good set of tires (falken azenis) ..i think the most boost the new si can take is 10-12 psi

[Ryu3x16]

I've drove plenty of honda's before and i'm quite please with the engineering work. the only thing that sucks about hondas to me is the quality of the car itself not including the engineering part. everything in the car feels so... Cheap compared to toyota and nissan. they're great cars blah blah.. anyways I've raced an ITR with intake and exhaust before (on a roll) going 30-35. he had no chance with me on a roll but off the line who knows.. and i've also raced a rsx type-s with a "20hp intake" and it was easier to beat than i thought..

p.s. im not bashing honda's

[jgreening]

anyways I've raced an ITR with intake and exhaust before (on a roll) going 30-35. he had no chance with me on a roll but off the line who knows..

Based on my experience, I feel the exact same way.

[Jehuty]

The ITR has a number od advantages.

First and formost is weight. An ITR comes in a 2600 soaking wet. Curb weights state as low as 2400 pounds. Besides having an effect on the power to weight ratio, that's lett inertia for the front tires to fight off the line.

Tires may be a factor in the launch. There where probably some nice tires on the Celi but the tires on a stock ITR are pretty impressive as far as the softness of the compound goes. Probably not that much difference here tho.

Suspension! Follow an ITR on the highway for awhile and marvel at it's rock hard ride! Many people have an easier time launching a car that is sprung and damped hard! I know I do!

Gears. A type r carries a direct 5th tranny that effectivly works like a six speed for racing purposes. Many have mentioned the ITR's lack of torque but with gears like this it doens't matter.

Ever heard the expression "Horsepower sells cars. Torque wins races."? Suprise. It's bullsh!t. With the proper gearing and a good driver, the ITR's NA 190 hp are every bit as good as a turbocharched 190 hp. A turbo in and of itself is not an advantage.


Anyhow, I can't help but say I'm shocked at some of the replies on here. Noone should be expected to know the ins and outs of every aspect of tuning and performance, but everyone should know this:

The outcome of a race will never be derived from hp and weight alone. The cars themselves are roughly one third of the race equation, the other two being the venue and the drivers. None of these three elements can be fully described on paper, let alone the synergy of all three. That's racing.

The race described in this post should be a close call, and it was. I don't know how anyone sees it any other way. Hell, I've used an e36 M3 to beat a supercharged Saleen Mustang, and yet I've somehow managed to lose to a Chevy S10 in the same car! Why? I dunno. That's racing.

[TheReader]

Either way, it was good.

jgreening's friend has a smile on his face for winning a 2nd gen JDM 3sgte 6gc convertible.

jgreening has a smile on his face knowing that he babied his car instead of trying to wreck it for just a race before work.

I am happy for both.

Happy New Year and safe driving,

TheReader.

[Kwanza26]

Either way, it was good.

jgreening's friend has a smile on his face for winning a 2nd gen JDM 3sgte 6gc convertible.

jgreening has a smile on his face knowing that he babied his car instead of trying to wreck it for just a race before work.

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Yes... we're glad to know your unbiased view holds up here... /sarcasm

Sure do make it sound like Jay wasn't trying at all...

[jgreening]

Oh, I was trying. I just got beat.

I make no excuses but I do think it is important for people to know that I didn't drop the clutch, spin the tires, or otherwise have an aggressive launch - not because it makes me sound better, but because it explains the "loss" somewhat and confirms the majority sentiment that my car is faster.

This post has been edited by jgreening: Dec 29, 2004 - 11:06 PM