7agte HELP, change the title still a collection 7age Options

[nik]

Well there is a lot of good info on here and I just want it in one spot i know kwanza and others have talked about it quite a bit so if you could add to this list that would be great.

Some people with good knowledge
DMC, FROTOU, KWANZA, DOGGY, EDO, FALLENHERO,

2zzge rods length 5.429 (wiseco)
7afe rods length 5.217 ( Pauter)

difference .212

a lot of info here about 4age
http://www.needfulthings.net/ostc/4age.htm

this is an idea have them make a connector 7afe to 4age with MAP
http://www.autosportwiring.com/pages/1/index.htm

7age info
http://www.corollaperformance.com/Mods/Eng...GE.html#rayhall

http://te51levin.superjamie.net/7age/

FROTOU the man with the 7agte
http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=8586&hl=

good place to ask questions
http://www.club4ag.com/

This post has been edited by nik: Jan 28, 2005 - 12:58 PM

[FallenHero]

Here is my contribution.

Fallen's info (for now)

http://www.billzilla.org/4agmods.htm

http://www.mr2supercharger.com/7Aengines.html

[nik]

well im leaving the 7afte and going into 7agte mode but need a little help.
7afte boosted 15 psi and blow oil up and out by the spark plugs she still runs fine but i want a better head so.....

i tracked down a 4age geo prism wiring harness so i can keep MAP
wiring pinout will be easy to find i'll call geo for it.
also located a cylinder head and manifold (everything i need above of the block)
got 4age billet 8:5.1 pistons lined up
trying to get a good price on the 7afe rods
copper or metal head gasket


now i have a question i know a guy that has a rebuilt 4age cylinder head new valves p&p some titanium goodies the works but it was for a afm can i still use this head with a prism manifold and us MAP with a prism harness?

[thedevilmaycrie]

you will need the igniton system from the geo... ie distrib/igntor/coil... all the 4age heads at relitvly the same execpt one that i know of... talk with doggy though to make sure you get the right compression ratio... also you will need the ecu/wiring/sensors from the geo...

[nik]

you will need the igniton system from the geo... ie distrib/igntor/coil...  all the 4age heads at relitvly the same execpt one that i know of...  talk with doggy though to make sure you get the right compression ratio...  also you will need the ecu/wiring/sensors from the geo...
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ok all sensors and all the ignition stuff ok

question i was just going to buy all new sensors + igntor and coil because the engine is kinda old. Will some of my sensor from the 7afe fit like the knock sensor?

now for compression i'll do a little searching around see if i can came up with some numbers.

on last question is the geo prism a OBD1 or 2?
thanks DMC

This post has been edited by nik: Jan 28, 2005 - 4:34 PM

[FallenHero]

well, it wasn't obd2 becaus that system was adopted in 96

[nik]

well, it wasn't obd2 becaus that system was adopted in 96
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good obd1

i'm trying to figure out if i can use the 7afe harness or atleast some of it
or just swap the 4age harness in probably 4age harness with ecu

[thedevilmaycrie]

you HAVE to use the 4age harness and ecu.... and use the 7afe for the components that you are keeping to use the plugs off it

-DMC

[nik]

you HAVE to use the 4age harness and ecu....  and use the 7afe for the components that you are keeping to use the plugs off it

-DMC
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thats what i was trying to say that will most time consuming part wiring.
if i go with the 4age harness can i use a 4agze ecu because i'm going turbo and use the 4agze bar sensor?

or do i need a 4agze map harness?

[thedevilmaycrie]

i beleive 4agze harness and sensors are needed .... but dont quote me know that...

-DMC

[nik]

i beleive 4agze harness and sensors are needed .... but dont quote me know that...

-DMC
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how about this
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...sspagename=WDVW

[thedevilmaycrie]

ummm ad ask fontu (the featured ride ..) he's the one selling it

-DMC

[frotou]

Yeah, I'm selling my wiring harness and ecu because I don't want to take the chance to cut it (to splice in my celi) and to not be happy of it. That's the main reason I finally decide to go stand alone (my favourite now is autronic; www.autronic.com). I'm sure to have the bests results quickly and safer than the 4agze ecu and e manage.

Many sensors share the same signal to the ecu (4a and 7a) (air intake temp. , knock sensor, water temp.) but FIRST you choose the ecu you want with the harness if possible and ecu connectors. SECOND you have to go with the distributor of the ecu (who fit in the head) THIRD you complete with sensors who give the same signals to the ecu.

For an "4ag" head you need a 4ag ecu to read the head's distributor.

I don't know the Geo engine (not sale here in Canada) but if it's a 4age engine, take the wiring harness, distributor , ecu and map. After you can do like an 7afte ; the map (and ecu) read only the vacuum (don't forget a check valve to stop boost reaching map) and you'll need piggyback system to add fuel and adjust timming under boost.

The other way (what I was supposed to do) is to take the 4agze ecu/harness and complete it with the emanage. The 4agze ecu work great until 12 lbs of boost but after that it need help. What stop me to try it is the e manage is not compatible with the toyota dli system (distributorless ignition). The dli is share by the ae92 4agze (not all) ae101 4agze and also the supra 7mgte.

Later

Claude

This post has been edited by frotou: Jan 28, 2005 - 7:43 PM

[Kwanza26]

Nik... there is no real advantage in using the MAP 4AGZE ecu over a MAP 4AGE ecu unless you plan on setting up DLI. You can modify the exsisting 7A harness to work, but it's a pretty painstaking task because you basically have to re-pin and rebuild most of the engine harness. The main focus should be the distributor, external coil/ignitor because most everything else is pretty similar. The TPS may be slightly different, but I can't imagine it being too much of a hassle. As far as the MAP sensors go, since you're gonna be rebuilding the harness anyway... get a better MAP sensor for boost. Everything else is pretty straight foreward.

[nik]

what do you recommend for a MAP sensor?

[nik]

all 20v are tvis right? can i do a black top ITB with harness and ecu to a 16v head along with 8.0:1 pistons. or is there a way to use a 20v head and turbo it but not use the tvis butterflys ?

[FallenHero]

20v were not TVIS they were vvt. No 4ag TVIS after 1989.

[nik]

20v were not TVIS they were vvt.  No 4ag TVIS after 1989.
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how can i get a 20v head to work with turbo?

[edo17982]

like every engine man....get CR ratio to 9:1 or even lower by getting forged pistons or a thicker head gasket.....

This post has been edited by edo17982: Feb 1, 2005 - 12:58 PM

[nik]

like every engine man....get CR ratio to 9:1 or even lower by getting forged pistons or a thicker head gasket.....
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but will i have problems with vvt thats my main question or do i need to disable vvt and remove the butterflys?

This post has been edited by nik: Feb 1, 2005 - 1:36 PM

[Mr2swift]

Ok here is what I think, and you can use my pesonall experience and knowledge if you choose to. My info is based on my hands on with dealing with these engines for many of years. Best thing to do is to find head with loom and all accessories attatched to the loom and ecu from the 4agze or 4age. I prefer the 4agze and you should to because you are going to run boost and the 4agze is quite ready for that. As for the 12 psi on the stock 4agze being your limit is false and I always like to make that correction as it has been floating around forums for years. Be sure to get the AFM as well. With this setup you can use Safc to control fuel or a greddy emanage. You will obviously need to interface the gze loom to your existing Efi. The link you posted with the guy that makes looms might be quite advantagous if he can do something for you affordable as his work looks very clean.

I personally would not be interested in mix matching parts as you get closer to a Mickey Mouse swap vs a dependable daily driver with OEM engine bay configuration. Standalone should be the last thing on your mind for this project trust me. I currently have a 7agze running (my brothers, but I put it together) and he is using the 4agze head and loom complete on 7a block, gze pistons, and stock 7a rods that have been balanced, polished, and bronze bushed so it is now a full floating piston like that of the 4ag/gze.

Not to get you off course of what you are trying to do at all, but why not 7agze? This way you get yourself a complete 4agze with everything much like you would get in a front clip and use the pistons head wireloom ecu and accessories including the s/c. If you choose to turbo down the road then you will have that option to remove the blower and add a turbo. Or heck maybe you want to twincharge. You have many options with the 4agze and you will not have to modify like you will need to modify to get yourself a 7agte, ie exhaust manifold, turbo, downpipe fab, ect. Best bang for your buck and ease of putting a hybrid together would surely be a 7agze. Heck, maybe you might want to upgrade your blower as I have done here. http://upload.3sgtemr2.com/upload/MVC-048S.JPG
That is a twinscrew blower that is a supercharger down low, and has turbo efficiency up top unlike any other blower on the market. Good for 200+ hp at the wheels on a 1.6 and just to let you know a mazda miata 1.8 liter made 285 to the wheels with the exact same blower, and is much more streetable then a turbo. Just food for thought!

Ron (951) 283-3778
Motors Unlimited

[nik]

was the gze head direct bolt on? And i'm not going to get into a supercahrger Vs turbo talk i like turbo and just want to stay turbo the i really would like to do what Ray Hall did 20v 7agte around 250-300 whp

[Mr2swift]

Yes the Gze head is a direct bolt on like the 4ag. As for turbo vs. supercharger talk, my real point is ease of getting your car going. Sometimes doing to many things at once can get confusing and or complicated. Things look good on paper sometimes but the execution is another. Not trying to take away from anyones skills or mechanical level, my main point is you can go 7agze and litterally bolt everything in place rewire and fire up for the same cost of attaining the 4agze hybrid essentials and still go turbo if one wanted to.


Ron

[Kwanza26]

but will i have problems with vvt thats my main question or do i need to disable vvt and remove the butterflys?
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VVT should not cause any issues. Also, the 20V head does not use TVIS butterflies, only the earlier model "bigport" 4AGEs did. For a forced induction set-up... the butterfly system is rendered almost pointless, so removing them can help flow, but the bigport intake ports are a little bit too big so low-end suffers slightly. As for the issue of ITBs, so long as you use the stock box that covers the ITBs, with or without the stacks, you should be fine.

was the gze head direct bolt on? And i'm not going to get into a supercahrger Vs turbo talk i like turbo and just want to stay turbo the i really would like to do what Ray Hall did 20v 7agte around 250-300 whp

The gze head is essentially the same as the regular 4AGE heads. The earlier MR2 4AGZE used bigport heads, and the AE92/AE101 used smallport heads. I believe the early AE92 models may have also used bigport heads. These are typically the AFM 4AGZE. As for your question, the head essentially bolts on the 7A block. The only concern is using the correct headgasket (4AGE/GZE/20V headgasket matching the head). The headgaskets correspond to the layout and waterlines also...

[frotou]

After 12-14 psi the 4agze ecu read to much air and compensate by retard timming and give too much fuel (a/f ratio fall in the 11;1 and lower range) It's possible to tune with a piggyback but you need to make A LOT of corrections (read here a lot of time). Also I HATE THE AFM system .

Claude

[edo17982]

After 12-14 psi the 4agze ecu read to much air and compensate by retard timming and give too much fuel (a/f ratio fall in the 11;1 and lower range) It's possible to tune with a piggyback but you need to make A LOT of corrections (read here a lot of time). Also I HATE THE AFM system  .

Claude
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Sorry bro but if it retards and add too much fuel it would run over 17:1 a/f since it's rich, not under 11:1.....

[nik]

After 12-14 psi the 4agze ecu read to much air and compensate by retard timming and give too much fuel (a/f ratio fall in the 11;1 and lower range) It's possible to tune with a piggyback but you need to make A LOT of corrections (read here a lot of time). Also I HATE THE AFM system  .

Claude
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you think the e-manager would be ok for this set-up i want to push about 15 psi or(240 whp) do a full harness swap with ecu. what head will accomplish this goal?
i dont want to super just turbo
small port = probably not?
big port= better flow for FI
20vblack= good need to do something about the butterflys has map
Geo prism 4age= easy to get has map
and i want MAP

[frotou]

The most simple solution for you nik ; big port and 4agze usdm ecu + e manage if you need it.

Forget 20 valves and if you want run the geo map ecu you will need to tune all the fuel and timming curves under boost because this ecu don't reconize boost.

But nothing is really simple with this hybrid

Later Claude

[Mr2swift]

The most simple solution for you nik ; big port and 4agze usdm ecu + e manage if you need it.

Forget 20 valves and if you want run the geo map ecu you will need to tune all the fuel and timming curves under boost because this ecu don't reconize boost.

But nothing is really simple with this hybrid 

Later                      Claude
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Well put and understand that the gze ecu is the only ecu in the equation that reads boost. Just makes things simpler but you could use the one you wish to just will be more tuning and tweaking using a N/A Ecu. Either way good luck and keep us posted as to what you decide to do. The 7ag hybrid is a great setup that produces real nice torque!

Ron


Ron

[nik]

The other way (what I was supposed to do) is to take the 4agze ecu/harness and complete it with the emanage. The 4agze ecu work great until 12 lbs of boost but after that it need help. What stop me to try it is the e manage is not compatible with the toyota dli system (distributorless ignition). The dli is share by the ae92 4agze (not all) ae101 4agze and also the supra 7mgte.

Later

Claude
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so if i get the newer 4agze MAP without DLI i should be ok use the 4agze head and ecu hook that up with my e-manager / E-01 for tuning and full harness 4agze

http://www.club4ag.com/faq%20and%20tech_pa...A-GZE_specs.htm

this says that the newer 4agze have DLI crap i'm going to e-mail greddy about using the e-manager with the 4agze DLI.

[frotou]

The jdm gze 90 and before is not dli but afm and all others map gze are dli ....

Maybe there is a solution for the dli and emanage but I don't understand it (that's because my wiring/ecu are on ebay).

Try a research (4agze dli or 7mgte) on these forum :

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/emanage/

http://www.emanageforums.com/

Good luck

[nik]

The jdm gze 90 and before is not dli but afm and all others map gze are dli ....

Maybe there is a solution for the dli and emanage but I don't understand it (that's because my wiring/ecu are on ebay).

Try a research (4agze dli or 7mgte) on these forum :

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/emanage/

http://www.emanageforums.com/

Good luck
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well i called and talk to greddy and they have no data on it but they said just use the # 3 the 2 coil (waste spark) 4 cyl and it should work fine.

frotou do you have a wiring daigram for the harness? if so i'll add a bid to ebay

[Mr2swift]

You can not retard the timing on a map based gze without making a modification to your stock ingitor and I do not care what Greddy says. Greddy promised my friend for 9 months to sort out the timing situation on his map based gze and did not get that info until he figured it out himself. If you have not already purchased the Emanage I would strongly suggest you wait. Get the motor running and then make a decision as to what you wish to use to control your efi. Who knows, by then I might be able to help map based gze owners with my Plug and Play Link engine management if you choose to adjust timing. Otherwise, the Safc would be your best bet for fuel only. I only say this because the Emanage and Eo1 will cost you about the same for a Plug and Play link but lets focus on getting your 7ag project going and then we can discuss your tuning methods and options.


Ron

[nik]

You can not retard the timing on a map based gze without making a modification to your stock ingitor and I do not care what Greddy says. Greddy promised my friend for 9 months to sort out the timing situation on his map based gze and did not get that info until he figured it out himself. If you have not already purchased the Emanage I would strongly suggest you wait. Get the motor running and then make a decision as to what you wish to use to control your efi. Who knows, by then I might be able to help map based gze owners with my Plug and Play Link engine management if you choose to adjust timing. Otherwise, the Safc would be your best bet for fuel only. I only say this because the Emanage and Eo1 will cost you about the same for a Plug and Play link but lets focus on getting your 7ag project going and then we can discuss your tuning methods and options.


Ron
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hey ron

well i already have the E-01 and e-manager set up for my 7afte thats why i want it to work with the hybrid if it can.

[frotou]

If you talk about my wiring on ebay, yes I include the wiring harnes. I can include also the 7afe wiring with m/t if you bid on it.

Claude

[nik]

If you talk about my wiring on ebay, yes I include the wiring harnes. I can include also the 7afe wiring with m/t if you bid on it.

Claude
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so you have the pin outs for both the 7afe 94-95 ecu and also your AE92 harness pinout right?

[nik]

well it started i bought the head 4agze big port now i have to find a map DLI wiring harness

once the head arrives i'll send it out to the shop for p&p and some valve work.

[nik]

does topshelfracing still do wiring?
AE92 to 6th gen?

topshelfracing

This post has been edited by nik: Feb 14, 2005 - 12:30 PM

[FallenHero]

http://www.topshelfracing.com/

Home page says no,.

[nik]

i think i might have to go stand alone.

This post has been edited by nik: Feb 14, 2005 - 5:31 PM

[thedevilmaycrie]

im gonna talk to my friend and see if i can get his wiring diagrams... no promises though and yes they are in japanesse so ill have to get them translated lol

-DMC

[nik]

im gonna talk to my friend and see if i can get his wiring diagrams...  no promises though and yes they are in japanesse so ill have to get them translated lol

-DMC
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i have this link

4agze pinouts

it has the jdm pinouts