Help! Serious Electrical Problems!, The weirdest thing I've ever seen... Options

[Coomer]

I'm so confused and scared right now...I can't figure out for the life of me what's going on with my car.

It started with me trying to start it, and only the fans turning on. I checked the fuses and none were blown, so I checked the switched wire at the starter, and it was giving me no voltage.

I then unplugged the battery and went inside to take a break. When I came back out and plugged the battery back in, I noticed that the trunk light didn't turn on. I looked at the dash and the door open light wasn't on either. I tried turning on the parking lights and they didn't turn on. I tried the horn and it didn't work. Basically, nothing on the car works.

This is where it gets confusing. I've got a fuse 6" from the battery, and it's in good shape. Figuring I'd popped some other fuse, I checked all of them in the dash and under the hood, and they were all good.

I pulled the main 50 amp fuse under the hood and tested voltage on the hot side. Voltage started at around 10 volts and over a couple seconds rose to 12.4 volts and held there.

I then tried the same thing for the horn fuse under the hood, and it started at about 8 volts before rising to 12.4 and staying there.

At this point I disconnected the negative cable and came inside. Someone suggested testing voltage between the terminals and the clamps with the headlights on to test for a bad battery connection, but this yielded no voltage. At the battery terminals, I'm getting 12.4 volts. At the battery's fuse and a bolt in my trunk, I'm also getting 12.4 volts.

At this point, I'm so confused. I've never seen anything this weird in my life. Anyone have any ideas?

[Batman722]

Don't be scared, it'll be OK. It sounds like you have to have a poor connection somewhere or something is not making contact. Probably with a wire going from the battery or to the ignition.

what were you doing exactly before this happen ? have you installed any electrical stuff recently ?

[Coomer]

I took out my alarm recently and was working on re-installing it. The car's electrical system seemed to be working, but I hadn't tried starting since my engine was held in by one mount prior to tonight.

[Silvan]

The voltages you measure could indicate that the battery is gone.
example: you measure 12volts, as soon as you start to draw current, the voltage collapses, giving you false readings. Take a big bulb and connect it directly to the battery then measure again. If the voltage drops too much the battery is gone.

[bufferdan]

Test main power source going to the alternator! You can use a wire and jump from battery + to the alternator +. See if stuff works then. When I had this problem, my car actually shut off while i was driving down the street. Come to find out that one of the main power wires that ran to the alternator broke loose at the battery.

[sapperk]

I had that problem on a smaller scale. It turned out my alternator was bad, and my battery was dieing. It was that simple. Try hooking it up to a good battery and see what happens. Then check you main battery cables.

[prez]

i had a similar problem and every few days my battery would go dead... i would charge it fully with a portable charger i have and it would be fine for a few weeks, then i parked it for like 20 minutes and the battery was completely drained, i had weird things with electrical stuff not working... its simply a bad connection, one or more of the connections are in need of cleaning... and its not neccessarily a problem you find AT the battery, you might have to take it in to a good autobody place where the can lift it and clean all the connections... i had to after i thought i fixed the problem (i had a bad battery as well) luckily i have 2 cousins who each own a autobody shop, one does body work, collision repair and painting, one does mechanical, electrical stuff

[slipgun]

Prez, I have a simmilar problem... it drains if I leave it for 1 week. where do you live?

[Coomer]

My battery is fine. I took it out and had it tested today. Anyone have any ideas?

[Snarfer]

What is the voltage drop from the hot side of 50A fuse and the chasis while the fuse is in? I would also check the resistance between the +,- connectors to the battery while they are disconnected. Try to turn everything off on the car, ie disconnect the clock, radio, ecu (i'm not sure on the ignition light timeer) and keep all of the doors closed.

This post has been edited by Snarfer: Apr 13, 2005 - 6:40 PM

[bufferdan]

Like i said..test for voltage going to the alternator.

[Coomer]

Like i said..test for voltage going to the alternator.
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I'll try it when I get a chance to go work on the car.

[946thGenGT]

If it were me I would be backtracking through all the electrical work I've recently done on the car to see if something is crossed or grounded somewhere. I'm sure that was the first thing you tried but it just seems logical that since you're doing work on the alarm that it's related to your problem. Well, good luck.

[Coomer]

If it were me I would be backtracking through all the electrical work I've recently done on the car to see if something is crossed or grounded somewhere.  I'm sure that was the first thing you tried but it just seems logical that since you're doing work on the alarm that it's related to your problem.  Well, good luck.
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I checked all of that stuff already. In fact, the alarm isn't even in the car at the moment. Only a few wires are ran for the alarm setup, and they're all taped off and stuff.

[946thGenGT]

If it were me I would be backtracking through all the electrical work I've recently done on the car to see if something is crossed or grounded somewhere.  I'm sure that was the first thing you tried but it just seems logical that since you're doing work on the alarm that it's related to your problem.  Well, good luck.
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I checked all of that stuff already. In fact, the alarm isn't even in the car at the moment. Only a few wires are ran for the alarm setup, and they're all taped off and stuff.
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Well, this might sound stupid, but have you tried putting the alarm back in? Lol. I'd probably be trying anything and everything if I were in your position.

[bufferdan]

IF you are loosing ALL power then it IS a MAIN POWER WIRE! There are only a couple big white MAIN power wires that run into the fuse box... but check voltage to the alternator...if the alternator is not getting anything then NOTHING WILL.

[von125]

I`m with Bufferdan on this. If your getting low voltage output check out the alternator and it`s connections.

[Coomer]

The alternator is getting +4 volts when the car is off(It can only be off at the moment.) Is this normal? Or should it be +12 volts?

Edit: Today I also added an additional ground wire to the tranny, an additional ground to the battery, and a brand new Optima Red Top. Still the same problems.

[BlackCelicaGT94]

my dad says


"theres a wire that comes off the positive battery terminal that is the main wire that powers up all the instruments, lights etc. and theres usually its either a fused link or a connector leading to a fuse and if theres trouble everywhere its either in that connector or that fused link. im not totally sure. im not aware of the post 90s but i had that problem with teh Supra. but it sounds like u got no juice go anywhere"


"also just as a precaution...hook everything up, turn the key on and check ur voltage at the starter. because theres usually a heavy cable running to the starter check and see if uve got 12 volts there. if u dont then its a pretty good test that either ur battery has got a short underload or its that other connector and fused link are gone"

those are the simple things. on the supra it wouldnt run and couple of points on the ECU. and i had to change ECUs but i still had lights and stuff

This post has been edited by BlackCelicaGT94: Apr 15, 2005 - 12:49 AM

[Coomer]

Bump. Anyone got an answer for my alternator question?

[bufferdan]

Croomer, Im pretty sure you should be pulling 12v at the alternator with the car off. Just like BlackCelica said, there is a main power wire that runs directly off the battery through a fuseable link in the fuse box then to the alternator. So its not relayed therefor you should be getting 12v all the time to the alternator.

[bufferdan]

Get a decent sized wire...or even a jumper cable. Hook it to the battery + and then directly to the Alternator +. Try and start the car now

This post has been edited by bufferdan: Apr 15, 2005 - 8:34 AM

[stormtrupr]

have you checked all of the fuses with a multimeter? i had my amp fuse go and it still looked perfectly fine, also, have you checked to make sure voltage is going accross the fuses to the other side? again with my amp fuse, the one was broke even though it looked fine but the multimeter showed infinite(or really high) resistance(means it was broke) i then proceeded to buy a new fuse and all was good for a couple days until i my amp wouldnt work again. Turns out not only was the first fuse broke but, the connections to the fuse werent making good enough contact. i had 12 volts on the battery side but nothing on the other side of the fuse....you have probably checked this but just trying to help

good luck!!!

[Akimbo]

last time i had problems it was neither the battery or the alternator, but it was the charging fuse. Maybe that'll help people, cuz we overlooked it.

[Coomer]

Get a decent sized wire...or even a jumper cable.  Hook it to the battery + and then directly to the Alternator +.  Try and start the car now
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Tried this tonight just for testing purposes, and it did nothing.

have you checked all of the fuses with a multimeter? i had my amp fuse go and it still looked perfectly fine, also, have you checked to make sure voltage is going accross the fuses to the other side? again with my amp fuse, the one was broke even though it looked fine but the multimeter showed infinite(or really high) resistance(means it was broke) i then proceeded to buy a new fuse and all was good for a couple days until i my amp wouldnt work again. Turns out not only was the first fuse broke but, the connections to the fuse werent making good enough contact. i had 12 volts on the battery side but nothing on the other side of the fuse....you have probably checked this but just trying to help

good luck!!!
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Fuses are all good. I tested them all today with the multimeter.

last time i had problems it was neither the battery or the alternator, but it was the charging fuse. Maybe that'll help people, cuz we overlooked it.
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Where's the charging fuse?


Today I worked on the car, and now some stuff is working, but some stuff isn't. When I turn the key to accessory, the airbag light turns on. When I turn it to on, the brake light comes on(e-brake), the check engine light comes on(always does when the car is on and not running), etc. When I turn the key to start the fans turn on, but that's it. The door open indicator doesn't turn on when I open a door, the trunk light doesn't come on with the trunk open, etc. The dome light fuse(in the engine bay) is good, but neither side is hot. The little chime thing that sounds when the key is turned to on and your seatbelt isn't on or when you have the key in ACC with the door open doesn't sound either.

I spent a couple hours at the Toyota dealer looking through the BGBs for answers, but couldn't find any. This is just a complete nightmare.

[Batman722]

remember when you got rid of alot of extra wires in the engine bay a few weeks ago ? Time to recheck all your connections. If a connection is weak, it won't allow all of the current needed. That might explain some power but not enough when you turn the key. I bet one or two are not are barely making a connection and causing this.

That could be the problem

[Coomer]

I unwrapped the harness and inspected all of the connections. They all look good.

What do you guys think of the voltages at some places testing at 8-10 volts initially and then gradually rising to 12.4 over the course of a few seconds? That really confuses me.

[Coomer]

I just realized that even with the four gauge wire going from the battery to the alternator, it's still reading +4 volts at the terminal? What do you think is causing this?

[Dm_Vinny]

Coomer,

Me personally I'd start off tracing everything. If I cant find anything wrong than I'd swap out the wires for new ones, if it still dont work, replace the alternator, I'm not sure but is our alternator have a built in regulator? never checked, if it doesnt that swap out the regulator.

[madmods]

What did you actually wire from your alarm? Starter kill? Did you cut your ignition wires? You door lock wires?

[Coomer]

Coomer,

Me personally I'd start off tracing everything. If I cant find anything wrong than I'd swap out the wires for new ones, if it still dont work, replace the alternator, I'm not sure but is our alternator have a built in regulator? never checked, if it doesnt that swap out the regulator.
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I actually found out that I am getting +12 volts at the alternator. Before, I was just testing with a bad ground.

What did you actually wire from your alarm? Starter kill? Did you cut your ignition wires? You door lock wires?
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I never cut my ignition wires, and my door locks are aftermarket. Right now, there is only wires ran for the positive brake input, door trigger, parking lights, ignition 1, ignition 2, and starter, and they're all completely taped off.

Can anyone explain what causes voltages to start from 8-10 volts and then rise to +12.4 volts over the course of a few seconds? This effect gets worse as the ground for the multimeter is placed further away from whatever I'm testing.

[madmods]

Coomer,

Me personally I'd start off tracing everything. If I cant find anything wrong than I'd swap out the wires for new ones, if it still dont work, replace the alternator, I'm not sure but is our alternator have a built in regulator? never checked, if it doesnt that swap out the regulator.
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I actually found out that I am getting +12 volts at the alternator. Before, I was just testing with a bad ground.

What did you actually wire from your alarm? Starter kill? Did you cut your ignition wires? You door lock wires?
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I never cut my ignition wires, and my door locks are aftermarket. Right now, there is only wires ran for the positive brake input, door trigger, parking lights, ignition 1, ignition 2, and starter, and they're all completely taped off.

Can anyone explain what causes voltages to start from 8-10 volts and then rise to +12.4 volts over the course of a few seconds? This effect gets worse as the ground for the multimeter is placed further away from whatever I'm testing.
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What actually are you testing to get this spike from? Any relays in there?

[Silvan]

Take one cable off from the battery, and measure the current running trough the electrical system. (don't start try to start, your meter will melt) If the current is very low, most likely you have a corroded connection, acting as a resistor.
(resistor restricts current not voltage)
But I can't give you a answer about the voltage going up from eight to twelve volts.
The only thing I can come up with is that the current that can be drawn is so low, the voltage collapses.

[Coomer]

OK,
I managed to get the car started and running yesterday. Now here is what still doesn't work:

Headlights and parking lights will not come on unless the car is on. The engine doesn't have to be running, the key just has to be in the on position.

The CD player won't turn on.

The clock doesn't come on.

Door open indicators, trunk light, dome lights don't work at all.

[946thGenGT]

How did you manage to get the car started? Or are things just starting to magically fix themself? Weird...

[Coomer]

How did you manage to get the car started?  Or are things just starting to magically fix themself?  Weird...
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A couple of the wires I ran were causing too much resistance, so when I removed them, the car was able to start. Hopefully tomorrow I can figure out what's up with the rest of the stuff...probably something small again.

[946thGenGT]

Any updates?

[Batman722]

remember when you got rid of alot of extra wires in the engine bay a few weeks ago ? Time to recheck all your connections. If a connection is weak, it won't allow all of the current needed. That might explain some power but not enough when you turn the key. I bet one or two are not are barely making a connection and causing this.

That could be the problem 
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How did you manage to get the car started?  Or are things just starting to magically fix themself?  Weird...
[right][snapback]272898[/snapback][/right]

A couple of the wires I ran were causing too much resistance, so when I removed them, the car was able to start. Hopefully tomorrow I can figure out what's up with the rest of the stuff...probably something small again.
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booya - update ???

[Coomer]

Not yet. I don't have time to work on the car until the weekend most likely. School/work kills me.

[Coomer]

OK,
So the car is worse than ever now. On Monday, it wouldn't start after work. Monday night I compression started it, and the RPMs fluctuated from 1,500-3,000, shooting back and forth. I immediately shut off the car and had it towed home, and now I'm stuck with no idea what's wrong.

The headlights and parking lights still work with the ignition on. The dome light, door open indicator, seat-belt-not-on indicator, stereo, trunk light, and clock still don't work.

What's interesting is that on one fuse, I'm getting resistance between ground and one of the sides of the fuse? Should I be getting resistance at all? To me it seems like I shouldn't, since +12v shouldn't be hitting ground, but maybe other stuff factors into resistance. Anyone know if this is normal?

[stormtrupr]

sounds like the fuse connections arent good and causing too much resistance....yes the resistance with the fuse should be practically zero
use the multimeter and check the resistance from the wire on one side of the fuse to the a wire on the other side of the fuse....resistance should be very low. Current= voltage/ Resistance so your resistance should be small or everything after the fuse will have little to no voltage since the current stays the same

[Coomer]

sounds like the fuse connections arent good and causing too much resistance....yes the resistance with the fuse should be practically zero
use the multimeter and check the resistance from the wire on one side of the fuse  to the a wire on the other side of the fuse....resistance should be very low.  Current= voltage/ Resistance so your resistance should be small or everything after the fuse will have little to no voltage since the current stays the same
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Been there done that...I tested every fuse and all have a very low resistance.

[stormtrupr]

i thought you had....i just misunderstood you last post..sorry

to meassure resistance...you dont have to have any voltage running through it....the digital multimeter will send a voltage through it for you. you shouldnt have resistance through just a wire....is you ground point ok? if so...maybe that section of the wire is bad

i'm still not positive on what exactly you mean...just tryin to help..so sorry to see a celi down and sick:(
storm

This post has been edited by stormtrupr: Apr 22, 2005 - 3:55 PM

[Snarfer]

I'm confused at what you mean resistance between ground and one side of the fuse... you should be measuring this with the battery disconnected, if so most of the fuses remain on the hot side of the connection so finding the impedance between either side of the fuse and the ground will have to go through what ever equipment is on that circuit meaning you will have a resistance.

[Snarfer]

I would check out the integrated relay and jb#1 which are both behind the drivers kick panel. All of the stuff you are talking about having trouble with are terminated there.

Here are some pdfs to help you...
component locator: http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jvernaci/elect...t%20locator.pdf

wiring diagrams:
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jvernaci/syste...%20diagrams.pdf

All you can really do is check the voltage at say the dome light, then move back into the wire (piece it with a needle or something), move to the junction box, then the fuse until you found out what went wrong.

I would also check out the relay connected up there and make sure it is working. What ever you do make sure you have proper ground on the battery or even run a wire to the batter to use as ground from the voltmeter.

[Snarfer]

I will only keep these on my filebox for a week, so people don't link to them. lemme know if you have any questions or find anything out, electrical problems are the worst.

This post has been edited by Snarfer: Apr 22, 2005 - 6:00 PM

[Coomer]

Snarfer,
Thank you so much. I had the component locator from the CelicaTech BGB page, but I didn't have the electrical diagrams PDF, which looks to be VERY helpful. I'll have to look at it in depth at home tonight and see what I can figure out. Thanks!

[Coomer]

Finally, I made some good progress tonight. I fixed all of my interior/non-engine problems. A picture is below, with an explanation at the bottom.



Basically, I guess I must've had something in that slot before. I guess it fell out or whatever...initially I figured that slot was useless(although one side was giving +12 volts), since it has a box with a slash through it on the fuse layout printed on the fuse cover.

However, that's not the case. When I pulled apart the fuse box and looked underneath, I realized that the three fuses to the left of it(20 amp radio fuse, 15 amp ECU-B fuse, and the 10 amp dome light fuse) get their constant power from the side of the empty slot that wasn't getting +12 volts. So I popped in the little connector that fits in there from the purple Celica, and now everything on the interior works again.

Lots of stuff revolves around the integration relay inside the car near the interior fuse box, and if the dome light fuse is blown or isn't getting power to the constant side then it messes with all kinds of stuff not even related to the dome light, such as the lights not being able to be on unless the ignition is on.

Now my stereo, clock, dome light, trunk light, door open indicators, seat belt light, and lights all work correctly.

What's very interesting is that there's NO mention at all in Toyota's BGB and electrical diagrams about this jumper piece of metal...I only found out what it did by pulling the fuse box apart. I wish there would've been...it would've saved me a ton of trouble.

That's the good news. Now for the bad.

I'm still having engine problems. The car still won't start.

So I tested the grounds on the block, head, tranny, and intake manifold, and they all are solidly grounded with the ignition off. However, with the ignition on, the engine/tranny give me a ground that yields +9 volts. If I move the ground probe of my multimeter to a good chassis ground(even the ground wires right where they bolt to the engine/tranny), I get +12 volts.

Also, if I place the ground probe at a solid chassis ground and then place the positive probe on the block, head, intake manifold, or tranny, I get +3 volts.

I'm thinking that I've got some sort of a +12 volt wire shorting out somewhere on the engine. Does that sound like something that would cause this?

Attached image(s)

 

[Coomer]

According to this Toyota god that I just talked to, it sounds like my problem is poor ground wires going to the engine. Anyone else think this is a ground issue?

[Hanyo]

good job on finding the electrical problems Christian.

About the ground problem. Can't you just run alot of thick gauge wires all around directly to your negative side of your battery. If you do that, and the engine starts and works fine.. then that means you have a poor ground somewhere. But if it doesnt help.. then that means its another issue.

[Snarfer]

on page 28 of that electrical guide there is something labeled short pin, is that what you are talking about?

This post has been edited by Snarfer: Apr 23, 2005 - 12:48 PM

[Coomer]

on page 28 of that electrical guide there is something labeled short pin, is that what you are talking about?
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That might be it...not sure though.

What's important is that I just got everything figured out! It works perfectly again!

[Consynx]

thx coomer, but im not a toyota god

This post has been edited by Consynx: Apr 23, 2005 - 10:55 PM

[Batman722]

on page 28 of that electrical guide there is something labeled short pin, is that what you are talking about?
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That might be it...not sure though.

What's important is that I just got everything figured out! It works perfectly again!
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all figured out ? AWESOME. Very glad to hear it.

what exactly was wrong ? are you sure you got it ?

[Coomer]

My ground to my tranny wasn't very good. Why it wasn't a problem for so long was because my solid tranny mount provided an excellent ground. With the new rubber/urethane mount, it's no longer conductive, so I ran a wire to a bolt on the tranny with some washers. Today, I removed the washers and made it so that the ground wire hits the tranny directly, and it solved all my problems completely.

[Drocay]

good to hear bro, u had us worried.

[Snarfer]

Heh, after I rebuilt my engine I didn't hook up the tranny mount for about 3 months until I saw it hanging around in the engine bay, didn't even notice anything. Good ol' toyota.

[DamDirtyApes]

nm

This post has been edited by DamDirtyApes: Apr 24, 2005 - 9:32 PM

[slipgun]

YES!!! Great work guys!!!!