3sgte in an ST vs RSX Type - S Stock Options

[MonsterBOX]

im about to do the long ass installation of the 2g 3sgte into my 1997 ST with a boost controller looking to do about 13psi...everyone is dissin my car now and when I get the engine in a few months I wanna run it up against a new Acura RSX Type - S...i think they do 210 at the crank? anyways ive driven it, so far the RSX seems faster than RWD Silvia SR20DET!.....just woundering if anyone knew how a front wheel drive 3sgte at 13psi would match up to a stock RSX type S before i put down alot of money on a bet...ive never driven a 3sgte so this if anyone who has one has done alot of racing please give me some feedback on how this thing matches up to the world of racing

This post has been edited by MonsterBOX: Apr 12, 2005 - 8:54 PM

[ghostdog]

RSX type-s runs mid to low 15s stock; so you should be able to. but from what I understand a swap celica, while capable, is a difficult car to drive fast. so I wouldn't say its a sure thing

[drnovascotia]

stock RSX - 15's

Stock s13 with sr20det = 13.8

But thanks for playing.

and rwd, which is nice

Dr.

[MonsterBOX]

difficult as in no traction?

[Digndoug]

difficult as in no traction?
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My guess that would be one thing, Also if you dont use the right trany, the gears are going to be dif, and also with out lsd my guess is a lot of wheel spin.

Thats what makes me not want to do the swap.

[lagos]

difficult as in no traction?
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My guess that would be one thing, Also if you dont use the right trany, the gears are going to be dif, and also with out lsd my guess is a lot of wheel spin.

Thats what makes me not want to do the swap.
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i really wish i could take all of you guys out for a ride or something.

one of my 1st impressions after driving my swaped car for the 1st time was "wow, this engine really feels right in the celica". i never really felt like traction was a problem. its one of those things that only happens when you want it too. sure i can break the tires loose in 2nd and sometimes even in 3rd gear, but this only happens when u WOT the throttle and really isint something that makes u feel like its slowing you down. its one of those things that gets your heart going and puts a smile on your face.

any NA 4cylinder car has never given me any problems in a race. ....basically after the swap, you will no longer think of most honda/acura cars as competion.

This post has been edited by lagos: Apr 12, 2005 - 11:03 PM

[Ryu3x16]

difficult as in no traction?
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My guess that would be one thing, Also if you dont use the right trany, the gears are going to be dif, and also with out lsd my guess is a lot of wheel spin.

Thats what makes me not want to do the swap.
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i really wish i could take all of you guys out for a ride or something.

one of my 1st impressions after driving my swaped car for the 1st time was "wow, this engine really feels right in the celica". i never really felt like traction was a problem. its one of those things that only happens when you want it too. sure i can break the tires loose in 2nd and sometimes even in 3rd gear, but this only happens when u WOT the throttle and really isint something that makes u feel like its slowing you down. its one of those things that gets your heart going and puts a smile on your face.

any NA 4cylinder car has never given me any problems in a race. ....basically after the swap, you will no longer think of most honda/acura cars as competion.
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I second that... and as drnovas.. it depends on what gen sr20det you're talkin about

[Supersprynt]

After the new intercooler I can easily spin through second gear. I feel confident against 350Zs and E36 M3s. An RSX should be well within range.

[Kwanza26]

I wouldn't be too general about what car can beat what. It would be arrogant to guess based on just that. An RSX type S can break into the 14's with bolt-ons... a 3SGTE celica with increased boost and a good driver will tip-toe 14-13... but I've yet to see a 3SGTE FWD celica run consistant 13's... while on the other hand, our shop has built several 13 second n/a 4 cylinder Hondas (4 different cars, 3 different engines, working on engine #4)... so I'm not gonna just say outright what will happen. I will say, with boost, it's a lot easier to make a lot of power, but it's more difficult to utilize it. You should really go to a drag strip and learn that for yourself lagos... ;] I've never driven a 3SGTE swapped FWD celica (have driven alltracs), but I've driven SRT-4 Neons, all sorts of turbo'ed Hondas (you name it, I've probably driven it), Eclipse GS-T's... and they all act very similar as far as traction from a stop is concerned. From a roll... boost owns all...

To close... it's always a driver's race when cars are this close. As easy as it may be for a turbo FWD car to run low 14's... it's just as easy for them to run high 15's all night long simply because of the driver. RSX's should NOT be under estimated... cause they are wicked fast. The K20A/2/Z1's are by far the best n/a 4 bangers out there... even better than the S2000's F20/22C.

As for the SR20 240... a stock SR20DET, regardless of version... will be lucky to break out of 15's with a stock engine (except for maybe the late S15 ones). They're not that fast in stock trim because the stock turbo is not that big or efficient. They're good for quick spool, but they suffer for making big power.

This post has been edited by Kwanza26: Apr 12, 2005 - 11:36 PM

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

So, are they any people out there with the 3S that think the car is hard to drive? I'm thinking of doing the swap (seriously), but I was tones of power. I'd like to get a honda. But I think it would be cool to redo the Celica with new leather, new semi racing seats (so I could put 5 points in but keep it stock), maybe some stuff to the dash, new paint, new radio set-up, and a 3S. What do ya'll think would be a good car for a semi-sleeper, with really nice quality, and a tone of hp. Trust me, I can never go to fast.

EDIT: I have done research on this, I just want to see what other poeple think.

This post has been edited by Bigmeanbulldog55: Apr 13, 2005 - 12:19 AM

[lagos]

i think the only reason u dont see swaped celicas running 12-13s is because the ct26 turbo cant make that type of power. if you look at what the mr2 guys have done with the 3sgte, you can basically make300-400hp with the right fuel and turbo.

ive never been at a track, and i really dont care if i go or not. in my opinion 1/4 tracks are for awd cars or anything thats not wearing street tires.

there will always be a faster car then what u own, it just depends on how much money u spend. the point i want to make is that with the swap you will be more then able to hold your own against other fast cars on the road and the car will work as a good daily driver too.

[Blakout16]

yeah, basically against an rsx-s comes down to driver... i was up against my friend with rsx-s off a slow roll and i gave him a good damn run for his money cuz he's a newbie to the car (only owned it like 3-4 months) and hasnt raced it much and i only have a st and race moderately for the hell of it and i was pretty excited about that i almost beat him.l

[Kwanza26]

i think the only reason u dont see swaped celicas running 12-13s is because the ct26 turbo cant make that type of power. if you look at what the mr2 guys have done with the 3sgte, you can basically make300-400hp with the right fuel and turbo.

ive never been at a track, and i really dont care if i go or not. in my opinion 1/4 tracks are for awd cars or anything thats not wearing street tires.

there will always be a faster car then what u own, it just depends on how much money u spend. the point i want to make is that with the swap you will be more then able to hold your own against other fast cars on the road and the car will work as a good daily driver too.
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I get what you're saying... but to me... it's a very single handed veiw. There will always be faster cars out there, true... but who's to say what's faster than what without knowing what's in those cars? I'm just saying to you... based on the people who have run their cars so far... 3SGTE FF Celicas, regardless of the power/torque/weight advantage... has a hard time from a standstill. Not because of the turbo, not because of the lack of power... simply because the cars can't hook up. That said... MR2's cannot and should not be part of the equation. It's not really about power... it's about traction. A 3SGTE powered FF Celica should have more than enough power to run consistant 13 second passes with the stock turbo...

You really should go run your car though... it'll give you a whole new outlook on the import scene... because there really aren't any cars that are "sorta" fast. Imports are either very fast... which is low 14's and better... or slow... 16's and slower.

[drnovascotia]

1. s13 sr20det or s14 sr20det either one will run high 13's all day long. hp does vary but is 205 ~ 250 either way stock

2. Kwanza - you're absolutly wrong.
a stock 240sx with a KA24de runs high 15's if it's a 5 speed.
a stock SR with FMIC and boost controller runs mid 13's

3. 3sgte is an underrated engine. That thing can haul @ss. CT26 is a good turbo, but of course it isn't gonna make 400rwhp.

Dr.

[lagos]

Kwanza26, buddy.... i really dont want to start any type of flame war, i have a lot of respect for you and everyone else on this board, but it kind of makes me mad when someone who admits to never have driven a swaped celica tries to explain to me how much of a problem traction is and how well the car hooks up.

[easternpiro1]

yeah, basically against an rsx-s comes down to driver... i was up against my friend with rsx-s off a slow roll and i gave him a good damn run for his money cuz he's a newbie to the car (only owned it like 3-4 months) and hasnt raced it much and i only have a st and race moderately for the hell of it and i was pretty excited about that i almost beat him.l
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wait one daaayum minute.... YOU BEAT A RSX WITH A ST?!?!? I couldnt even beat a stock civic with my st (even though i have an auto) what am i doing wrong?? god help me...i hope i get this loan so i can get that 3sgte clip in a few weeks!

[Green_MachToy]

If you just dump the clutch and floor it, traction will become an issue. If you find the sweet spot, it make all the difference. It does come down to driver. I am not saying ours will or will not beet the RSX, I haven't tried yet. Now rolling on the other hand, our cars with the 3sgte in it will fly past even the all-tracs. I have had a 240 with the SR20 roll up along side me and floor it. I hesitated thinking about it and at 70, dropped to third and caught him before 4th. Passed him and then had the Fuel Cutt-off engage as I have not installed the FCD yet. Our cars are quick and if you are looking for a sleeper, then you are on the right forum with the right car. Our cars have an element of unknown or surprise. Not many people know what they are capable of, even with the stock 3s setup. If it is another Toyota enthusiast, they know.

[97sccelica]

1. s13 sr20det or s14 sr20det either one will run high 13's all day long. hp does vary but is 205 ~ 250 either way stock

2. Kwanza - you're absolutly wrong.
a stock 240sx with a KA24de runs high 15's if it's a 5 speed.
a stock SR with FMIC and boost controller runs mid 13's

3. 3sgte is an underrated engine. That thing can haul @ss. CT26 is a good turbo, but of course it isn't gonna make 400rwhp.

Dr.
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1. ok, the 250hp s15 motor swaps are rare, so lets go with the 205-220hp ratings. an s13 with 220hp would not at all hit high 13's all day long, not with out a lot of weight reduction. if 220hp was enough to make a ~2700lb 240sx run high 13's every time, then so should a stock WRX which has about the same HP, with more torque, and comparatively unlimited traction with roughly 300lbs more. you will never see a bone stock WRX run high 13's consistantly

2.i have driven and riden in a s14 with a stock s14 sr20det in it. all it had was intake, it still had the stock 240sx exhaust

the car was not at all fast. it was right at the power level that 240sx's should have had from the factory. this observation seems fairly in tune with Kwanza's opinion

my car was faster when racing him, and that was when i was bone stock and didnt know how to drive my car worth ****. if i had to guess, he would barely hit high 14's, and he was a pretty good driver.

3. he now has a FMIC, down pipe, 3.25 inch exhaust, and a MBC set at 10psi. still only a low 14 second car. not mid 13's

now my car runs consistant 13's, and thats with me being nice to the tranny.

who here has actually gone to a track and driven a car down the 1/4 mile?

the most important part of drag racing is the hole shot, the 60ft, basically, the launch.

the faster the 60ft time, the faster the 1/4 mile time, i think that for every .1 second faster 60ft, its a .2 second faster 1/4 mile time.

i have seen plenty of turbo FWD cars at the track, and they get 2.5+ second 60ft times on street tires when they have the power to get something like a 2.1 maybe faster if they had traction(slicks). take the same car, if on one run it got a 2.5 60ft and the next run was a 2.0 60ft, the second run would be 1 second faster.

its for that reason, that ANY high power FWD car will require professional driving to hit the times its capable of with out the aid of slicks.

and before anyone asks, i have driven an 04 SRT4 and a 93 prelude VTEC boosting 8psi

all high power turbo FWD car, while very different from a 3s swapped celica in many aspects, when it comes down to the launch, they all do the same thing. SRT4 had the factory LSD and it still roasted the tires. the prelude gets traction in 3rd gear.

that was with me trying to get off the line as fast as possible, not getting rolling then rolling into the throttle, in which case, both those cars would still roast the tires in 1st. i will admit, i am not a good driver that can just hop into any car and make it run its best. i can only handle my car, and some RWD cars(datsun Z's with the turbo 1982 engine, and v8 mustangs)

take a 3s powered FF celica, and try to get off the line as fast as possible. thats when you will realize that the car has traction problems. you want a little bit of controlled wheelspin, too much wheel spin, you arent going anywhere, no wheelspin at all means the car is probably bogging.

[Kwanza26]

Kwanza26, buddy.... i really dont want to start any type of flame war, i have a lot of respect for you and everyone else on this board,  but it kind of makes me mad when someone who admits to never have driven a swaped celica tries to explain to me how much of a problem traction is and how well the car hooks up.
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Same here lagos... don't want to start any flame wars with you... but I'm just stating my opinion. Like I said before... even if not Celica specific... all FWD turbo cars act the same from a standstill.

1. s13 sr20det or s14 sr20det either one will run high 13's all day long. hp does vary but is 205 ~ 250 either way stock

2. Kwanza - you're absolutly wrong.
a stock 240sx with a KA24de runs high 15's if it's a 5 speed.
a stock SR with FMIC and boost controller runs mid 13's

Where's your backup information? I have buddies who drive sr20 240's... and they're not that fast. Our shop had a 92 240 (ka24de) and it got spanked by my corollas, which are 15 second cars at best. One of my good friends drives a 91 240 (ka24de) and my Celica can hang with it! I can post pictures and video clips if need be... but seriously now. What makes you think a stock sr20 240sx can run 13's? The 240sx weighs in the 2600-2800 pound neighborhood depending on generation... the SR20det makes 200-220 hp depending on generation. With rear wheel drivetrain loss, it'll put about 160-170 to the wheels... that's NOT a 13 second car. Take for example... the RSX type S weighs about 2600-2700 pounds... makes 200-210 hp (170-180 whp)... and runs low 15's stock. The 1st gen Solara 5 speeds (2800-2900 pounds)... made 200 hp (170-180 whp)and ran mid 15's... the Honda S2000 weighs 2700-2800 pounds, makes 240 hp (200 whp), and runs mid 14's... so how can a car that matches all of these others... run times a full second faster?

This post has been edited by Kwanza26: Apr 13, 2005 - 1:37 PM

[97sccelica]

so how can a car that matches all of these others... run times a full second faster?

Magazine hype?

[Blakout16]

yeah, basically against an rsx-s comes down to driver... i was up against my friend with rsx-s off a slow roll and i gave him a good damn run for his money cuz he's a newbie to the car (only owned it like 3-4 months) and hasnt raced it much and i only have a st and race moderately for the hell of it and i was pretty excited about that i almost beat him.l
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wait one daaayum minute.... YOU BEAT A RSX WITH A ST?!?!? I couldnt even beat a stock civic with my st (even though i have an auto) what am i doing wrong?? god help me...i hope i get this loan so i can get that 3sgte clip in a few weeks!
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lol, i didnt beat him! i came really close like half a car length, and he isnt the best at driving the car neither so...

[AndyST4]

My friend has beat rsx's in his stock 90 si and I could beat him wen I had the st motor As for the 3s my car destroys cars. I haven't taken it to the track yet and don't really plan on it but you should have no problem beating a stock rsx. From a rolling start I have beaten my cousin's evo 8 and killed a turbo r32. It is deffinetely tough to get a good launch in my car but I haven't needed one yet, and this was when I was only running 10psi My car gains like the other cars are at a stand still.

[97sccelica]

My friend has beat rsx's in his stock 90 si  and I could beat him wen I had the st motor As for the 3s my car destroys cars.  I haven't taken it to the track yet and don't really plan on it but you should have no problem beating a stock rsx.  From a rolling start I have beaten my cousin's evo 8 and killed a turbo r32.  It is deffinetely tough to get a good launch in my car but I haven't needed one yet, and this was when I was only running 10psi My car gains like the other cars are at a stand still.
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a turbo r32?

what kind of roll was this? VW r32's are fairly well powered. and turboing a 240hp 3.2l v6 would make a lot of power

[Kwanza26]

I sometimes get the impression some of you just haven't come across fast cars and good drivers...

This post has been edited by Kwanza26: Apr 13, 2005 - 3:31 PM

[nik]

yesterday i got beat by a STI but i hung with him a little bit but i know its got stuff done to it as for the RSX i beat my friends type s by a fender then he beat me by 1/2 a car a 7afte @ 10 psi and a rsx type s are almost dead even as for other cars i'm still waiting for a chick with a gst 99 eclipse to race her boyfriend acura would kill me he putd down 400whp+ on the highway he down shifted and lit up the tires when i rebuild into the 7agte he's my target i want to be as fast as him but the sad news is that he is getting more upgrades and going for 600 horse thats out of my reach.

[AndyST4]

My friend has beat rsx's in his stock 90 si  and I could beat him wen I had the st motor As for the 3s my car destroys cars.  I haven't taken it to the track yet and don't really plan on it but you should have no problem beating a stock rsx.  From a rolling start I have beaten my cousin's evo 8 and killed a turbo r32.  It is deffinetely tough to get a good launch in my car but I haven't needed one yet, and this was when I was only running 10psi My car gains like the other cars are at a stand still.
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a turbo r32?

what kind of roll was this? VW r32's are fairly well powered. and turboing a 240hp 3.2l v6 would make a lot of power
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it was a skyline

[drnovascotia]

You celica people have your facts completly wrong.

I said a SR'd 240, not the KA, those are slow as a celica

I'll take your @ the track anyday of the week in my SR and I guarantee I'd smoke you. I'm going for 12.5 this year once I get my LSD

with swaps s13's are 2600 lbs, with the boost turned up like I said they run 200rwhp stock with a FMIC. And if your "Friends" 240sx ran HIGH 14's he's doing something wrong.

Yes Subaru's are similar but AWD you lose a buttload of HP due to AWD, and they are heavier.


MY facts are from my 3 years 0f 240sx ownership, and my s13 SP powered sr20det.

Not trying to bash, just open up some of your biased eyes.

Dr.

[lagos]

why do i always get the feeling that people on here like to bash the 3s swap. its the best mod i have dont to my car and totally changed the way i look at my car. the motor really feels like it belongs in the 6th gen, and makes you wonder why toyota never offered the 3s in a fwd car. sure there will always be a faster car, but with the boost at 14psi, you really feel like u can give anyone a good run for their money.

[Kwanza26]

You celica people have your facts completly wrong.

I said a SR'd 240, not the KA, those are slow as a celica

I'll take your @ the track anyday of the week in my SR and I guarantee I'd smoke you. I'm going for 12.5 this year once I get my LSD

with swaps s13's are 2600 lbs, with the boost turned up like I said they run 200rwhp stock with a FMIC. And if your "Friends" 240sx ran HIGH 14's he's doing something wrong.

Yes Subaru's are similar but AWD you lose a buttload of HP due to AWD, and they are heavier.

MY facts are from my 3 years 0f 240sx ownership, and my s13 SP powered sr20det.

Not trying to bash, just open up some of your biased eyes.

Dr.
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You're the one that brought up the KA... If anyone here is biased... it's you. You say "STOCK" yet you also say FMIC and increased boost... what's stock about that? C'mon... now. Go back and re-read what I wrote... I said "a stock SR20DET, regardless of version... will be lucky to break out of 15's with a stock engine"... To add... I'm not doubting the SR20 with boost increase can get into the 13's with the stock turbo, but hardly at stock boost. I also think it's interesting you're gonna be running 12.5 soon. You currently are running mid 13's... and now down 1 full second all because of an LSD... and all this on the stock T25 turbine? These sorts of "guesses" is what riles me up sometimes.

When compared to the Celica, the 3SGTE makes a bit more power per psi because it has slightly higher static compression and a slightly better turbo... so a stock boost JDM 3SGTE (second gen), can potentially put a FF Celica into the mid-low 14's...

You can complain all you want about how biased us Celica folks are... but what the heck do you expect? You're on a celica forum. My reason for even posting in this discussion is to defend the Honda K... and now... you're totally mis-interpreting everything I'm saying in defense of your pride. I never even said anything about my buddie's SR20 240 (aside from it's not that fast)... yet you've managed to "guess" his time. I ask you your opinion about why you think a stock SR20DET can power a 240 into the 13's... yet all you can say is FMIC and increased boost. Do you have any idea what that sounds like?

[Kwanza26]

why do i always get the feeling that people on here like to bash the 3s swap. its the best mod i have dont to my car and totally changed the way i look at my car. the motor really feels like it belongs in the 6th gen, and makes you wonder why toyota never offered the 3s in a fwd car. sure there will always be a faster car, but with the boost at 14psi, you really feel like u can give anyone a good run for their money.
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You're right lagos... on the street, a 13-14 second car is not gonna get beaten... like ever... especially one with massive mid-range such as the 3SGTE. I shall say again, turbo 4 bangers will own just about everything from a roll. The only disparity between the opinions here, mainly yours and mine, is the standard for a fast car. Believe me lagos... I've contemplated (am still am contemplating), selling the MR2 and the Corolla and go for a 3SGTE swap. I hold very high praise for the 3SGTE.

[jgreening]

I have to agree with Lagos as well. Once you get the car dialed in, it screams. I had quite a few bumps at first but the car is so close to being perfect I can taste it. Oh, and by the way, when I reased my buddy's ITR, I didn't realize that I had a boost leak. There is no doubt my car would wipe his now - unfortunately, he sold it.

I would like to add that my sway bars were another one of my favorite mods. The cornering in this car is like riding in a go cart.

[97sccelica]

You celica people have your facts completly wrong.

I said a SR'd 240, not the KA, those are slow as a celica

I'll take your @ the track anyday of the week in my SR and I guarantee I'd smoke you. I'm going for 12.5 this year once I get my LSD

with swaps s13's are 2600 lbs, with the boost turned up like I said they run 200rwhp stock with a FMIC. And if your "Friends" 240sx ran HIGH 14's he's doing something wrong.

Yes Subaru's are similar but AWD you lose a buttload of HP due to AWD, and they are heavier.


MY facts are from my 3 years 0f 240sx ownership, and my s13 SP powered sr20det.

Not trying to bash, just open up some of your biased eyes.

Dr.
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so you have 200rwhp, something like that?

if you lived close i would race you any day, from a stop, from a slow roll, from a fast roll. i would even put money on it, why? 1.because i know pretty much exactly what your car has, you dont have LSD, so from a stop, i would slaughter you, and even if you did, i would turn on launch control and launch making 7psi at a dead stop, again, slaughter. from a roll, i have more power at the wheels than you do, with only a little more weight, but thats OK, i can still raise my boost more where as with stock fuel/turbo/ECU you cant take a s13 SR past 14psi i believe 2. i made my AUTOMATIC 1997 ST celica faster than a stock WRX. i have full confidence in my modding and tunning abilities.

by your terms of stock you could say my car is stock being that i still use the stock turbo. and RWD isnt leaps and bounds more efficient than AWD but my car does weigh more(although i doubt your car weighs 2600lbs), so our car should be pretty even from a roll, in your eyes. never the less, i am quite positive that what ever type of straight line acceleration you can try, my car is faster. let me get a hold of my friend with the s14, he has pretty much the same mods as you. i will race him from a roll, and get it on video. yea, an s14 weighs more, so lets say your car would be 1 car length ahead of his

a FMIC is a MAJOR modification
raising the boost to past 10psi on an SR is major considering 6psi is stock.

and do you have any proof of what your car can do? i guess your car has full turbo back exhaust, FMIC, oh lets say 12psi, intake and probably some nice tires and wheels. i dont doubt thats enough to get into the 13's, that, is beyond stock.

my friends 240 was stock, in every sense when it comes to a car that has had an engine swap. stock down pipe, stock 240sx exhaust, stock side mount, STOCK BOOST. Hell, he even still had the stock 240sx cat.

and i agree with kwanza, simply adding an LSD to your car wont bring you into the mid 12's from the mid 13's

[saleeka]

i have to say i get really irritaed with the "a modded ______ is faster than a stock_____" and trash along those lines... You can make any car faster with $$$, but it only can go so far depending on how good the car is in the first place. Yeah a 3SGTE celi prolly could keep up with a stock Type S, but put 3 G into the S and now its spanking your @ss again...

[AndyST4]

i have to say i get really irritaed with the "a modded ______ is faster than a stock_____" and trash along those lines... You can make any car faster with $$$, but it only can go so far depending on how good the car is in the first place. Yeah a 3SGTE celi prolly could keep up with a stock Type S, but put 3 G into the S and now its spanking your @ss again... 
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but a stock type s costs more than buying a celica and putting a 3s into it and I don't even know if a type-s with 3k into would give us trouble. I really don't think people have any idea how fast our cars actually are. In 1/4 i can see getting beat by a fairly fast car because my car is hard to launch but overall its fast

[saleeka]

yeah and its also a hell of a lot newer and nicer... like i ALREADY said- the car can only go so far within its parameters... If you want value buy an older lude and do an H22 swap- same concept as the 6GC and the 3S... plain and simple, my point was the RSX has better potential if you want to invest in it...

[FallenHero]

so how can a car that matches all of these others... run times a full second faster?

Magazine hype?
[right][snapback]270678[/snapback][/right]

naa, initial D hype.

[darksecret]

i have to say i get really irritaed with the "a modded ______ is faster than a stock_____" and trash along those lines... You can make any car faster with $$$, but it only can go so far depending on how good the car is in the first place. Yeah a 3SGTE celi prolly could keep up with a stock Type S, but put 3 G into the S and now its spanking your @ss again... 
[right][snapback]271163[/snapback][/right]

You also have to consider that a stock 7th gen GT-S isn't much worse than the RSX-S, the type-S is over rated just like most Hondas, I am not being biased i've owned or driven a number of Hondas and yes they are nice due to the aftermarket support and reliability, but the power numbers are exaggerated, and if the 5s had the same support as the B16 or the K20 we wouldn't need to discuss this. On the other hand if the 6th gens 3S had been offered in America we would own the turbo four market. Don't get me wrong Honda does own the N/A, there aren't any N/A fours like those, but the 3S is still the king of all fours, not much better and it is highly negotiable, but all around it's the best (this is if you keep the same characteristics such as bore and stroke, head flow,etc. anything after that and it's not even the same motor).

[easternpiro1]

okay guys...imhoping to get a 3sgte soon and dont flame me for this question,but when swapped into a st (formerly an auto) what would the whp be?

[darksecret]

okay guys...imhoping to get a 3sgte soon and dont flame me for this question,but when swapped into a st (formerly an auto) what would the whp be?
[right][snapback]271403[/snapback][/right]

What year did you say it was, either way probably 185 to 190. Let me check the motor out before you buy it, i'll try to get out there next weekend.

[prompt]

slap a t3 turbo on instead of the ct26 and run boost at 22psi. Low 13's is very possible.

[AndyST4]

yeah and its also a hell of a lot newer and nicer... like i ALREADY said- the car can only go so far within its parameters... If you want value buy an older lude and do an H22 swap- same concept as the 6GC and the 3S... plain and simple, my point was the RSX has better potential if you want to invest in it...
[right][snapback]271190[/snapback][/right]

whos talking about nice you said it would be whooping ass, last time i chcked being nice didn't make a car whoop ass. There is no way an h22 in a prelude would even touch my car, like I said people have no idea how fast 3s's are.

[Doge]

slap a t3 turbo on instead of the ct26 and run boost at 22psi. Low 13's is very possible.
[right][snapback]271459[/snapback][/right]

A gernade under your hood is also very possible


This post has been edited by Doge: Apr 14, 2005 - 5:26 PM

[lagos]

like I said people have no idea how fast 3s's are.

i 100% agree

[97sccelica]

yeah and its also a hell of a lot newer and nicer... like i ALREADY said- the car can only go so far within its parameters... If you want value buy an older lude and do an H22 swap- same concept as the 6GC and the 3S... plain and simple, my point was the RSX has better potential if you want to invest in it...
[right][snapback]271190[/snapback][/right]

whos talking about nice you said it would be whooping ass, last time i chcked being nice didn't make a car whoop ass. There is no way an h22 in a prelude would even touch my car, like I said people have no idea how fast 3s's are.
[right][snapback]271485[/snapback][/right]

H22 preludes are slow.

[Consynx]

i really found this post interesting

i wouldn't even be worried about a RSX type S w/ a 3S in the celi
i'd be worried about something like a Turbo GT 7th gen celi
modified GS-T
heavy modded RSX...

not a stock one though
this is why i did no think much of this thread...
also, if all you wanna do is be fast, and dont LOVE the celi
i do suggest 240SX w/ swap...i thought about it, but i love the celi too much

[saleeka]

it seems my point hasnt been all too clear... I get irritated when people always want to ask questions like " if i modify this car to this level, will it beat this car off the shoroom floor??? , when the car they are comparing it too has vast potential if only someone decided to take advantage of it- perfect case in point- the Type S... I havent disputed ONCE that a 3S Celi is slow, or slower than the S stock- But seriously, do a few mods to the S and now its a better car... Also, why do you think it is that there isnt any aftermarket support for toyota engines like the 5S? Its really simple- They dont have the ability to generate high amounts of power efficiently. There is a reason why B and K series motors do have that support- its because they have potential. Yeah, if the 5S was designed better than the KA we wouldent be having this conversation, but guess what, its not as good as the KA, or a B series, or an H block... I will say that the 2ZZ-GE toyota put out is a damn good engine, but the transmission that toyota uses for it dosent come close to harnessing the power in the way that the KA's do... In terms of Turbo fours i will agree the 3SGTE is the best out there, but in terms of performance NA 4 cylinder engines- nobody consistantly puts it down like honda...

[darksecret]

But what i'm saying is that the 5S is a very good motor with great potential, the problem it has is that it's also hard to work with, Hondas are popular for tuners because they are so easy to build and you don't need a very extensive amount of knowledge to build a 300 horsepower B16. They are very simple motors (not as simple as the SR20) and parts companies jumped on it. If the parts were avilable for the 5S or the 3S was in the car GE or GTE Toyota would run the American market, but the government needed are car company to set an example with and chose Toyota. Besides why are we comparing the 3SGTE to the Type S, I took a stock 95 DeVille and busted a Type S they are very over rated. If any motor is to be compared it should be a 3SGE. For one thing it's N/A, two it's got the same potential as the 3SGTE. So that means that you can have N/A motor that is very capable of 800+ HP, put it simply the KA and 3S are both very capable motors and on N/A or Turbo apps they can both be strong. They're is no comparison between them, unless you want to bring the fact that the 3S is old is still the performance choice from Toyota. It's like comparing the RB26 to a 2JZ, both are very capable and great motors.

[MonsterBOX]

i think people rnt thinking bout how light the celica is...i have the ****ty 7afe and have beat an integra

[darksecret]

I could agree with MonsterBOX that the weight makes a difference but the RSX and Celica are only 200lbs. apart so the Celica will still need to make close to 200HP to run with the RSX that is why the 3SGE is a good candidate for comparison. Now if you want to go all out the Type-S is the top of lince RSX and the GT-Four Caldina is the top of the line Celica, well you're looking at the same weight but the Caldina is pushing 260HP so, top of the line comparison is out of the question when comparing the Celica to an RSX, so lets go the next step down to a standard RSX and a 3SGE powered Celica, we have 160 HP for the RSX and 190 for the SS-II so no matter how you look at it the Celica out powers the RSX, now there are the American Celicas but they don't even have the real engines, they use them from other cars, so no comparison there either. Last thing don't bother with the torque since we are comparing a Honda to a Toyota and it's funny that my numbers are also from a 10+ year old engine.

[Supersprynt]

I was messing with a 350z and doing better than holding my own if it gives you any idea.

[Consynx]

aren't those like 14.6 cars?

[97sccelica]

I was messing with a 350z and doing better than holding my own if it gives you any idea.
[right][snapback]273999[/snapback][/right]

aside from helping with heat soak

did that W2A intercooler help the car? is it better on the top end?

[Mr2_Joel]

aren't those like 14.6 cars?
[right][snapback]274186[/snapback][/right]

yeah but w/ a few bolt ons they'll get in the 13's easily

[Digndoug]

i really found this post interesting

i wouldn't even be worried about a RSX type S w/ a 3S in the celi
i'd be worried about something like a Turbo GT 7th gen celi
modified GS-T
heavy modded RSX...

not a stock one though
this is why i did no think much of this thread...
also, if all you wanna do is be fast, and dont LOVE the celi
i do suggest 240SX w/ swap...i thought about it, but i love the celi too much
[right][snapback]271608[/snapback][/right]

I was thinking the same thing, I love rwd, but there are to many 240's and civics around here.. A celica with a swap would own just cause you wont see one around you.

also speaking of the 3s-gte swap, how is the fourm/site for the how to and wiring coming??

This post has been edited by Digndoug: Apr 19, 2005 - 6:05 PM

[nObOdy]

Having done extensive research and owning niether of the cars i feel as if i can offer some truley unbiased information -
First off - the 3s-gte is one of the best I4's out there. period. You see the amounts of times they are used in Toyota's racing cars, you see the supra engine being pulled out and an 3s-gte put in, you know its a good engine.
On a standing start though - a 3s without lsd will lose to the acura given the figures, weight. mainly because yea - the 3s has the power, but it cant put it to the ground - the acura has less power - but it will be throwing all it has to the floor immediately. The acura is lighter and as ive seen several people post - their N/A engines are phenominal. Now - i have every expectation that come the end of second and 3rd and so on the 3s-gte will absolutly begin taking back lost ground.
also - correct me if im wrong but does it not sound odd that you would lose so much horsepower in the translation of hp - whp. for instance the second gen 3s-gte puts out 225 horse and to tell me it would only be putting 160 whp to the ground sounds a bit out of place.

When i get money i am most definetely doing a 3s swap as it is an extremely formidible engine.
over and out

[MonsterBOX]

AMEN NOBODY

[Rjb23]

i really found this post interesting

i wouldn't even be worried about a RSX type S w/ a 3S in the celi
i'd be worried about something like a Turbo GT 7th gen celi
modified GS-T
heavy modded RSX...

not a stock one though
this is why i did no think much of this thread...
also, if all you wanna do is be fast, and dont LOVE the celi
i do suggest 240SX w/ swap...i thought about it, but i love the celi too much
[right][snapback]271608[/snapback][/right]

I was thinking the same thing, I love rwd, but there are to many 240's and civics around here.. A celica with a swap would own just cause you wont see one around you.

also speaking of the 3s-gte swap, how is the fourm/site for the how to and wiring coming??
[right][snapback]274219[/snapback][/right]

Uhmm civics are FWD.

[Consynx]

lol, he knows, the 240 is the main choice, i think he thrwe civics in for a comparison of their popularity

[XXX_Mina]

first car i beat when i got my swap was turpoed h22 prelude...
as for the RSX type s vs 3s celica with uped boost, ill go with the celica... stock for stock, rsx type s might win since 3s is only 225hp and the rsx is a little lighter and has v-tech... 3s is a heavey bitch..

Mina

[SoundSlut_dotcom]

Kwanza26, buddy.... i really dont want to start any type of flame war, i have a lot of respect for you and everyone else on this board,  but it kind of makes me mad when someone who admits to never have driven a swaped celica tries to explain to me how much of a problem traction is and how well the car hooks up.
[right][snapback]270518[/snapback][/right]

with all due respects more than 80% of this board has never driven a swapped celica.. and after reading all the info on it for a few years u kinda get the idea wat u can do with a 3sgte and its extras...

SS.com

[SoundSlut_dotcom]

my girl has the RSX.. hook up a turbo to that motor and a 3s wont come close.. unless that 3s is modded really heavily. top to bottom.. RSX engine is DEF a better engine to mod. in my choice. but as far as the original question... Run your new 3sgte a few times tune it. and see what kind of numbers your puttin up... IMO

bye.

[Ryu3x16]

first car i beat when i got my swap was turpoed h22 prelude...
as for the RSX type s vs 3s celica with uped boost, ill go with the celica... stock for stock, rsx type s might win since 3s is only 225hp and the rsx is a little lighter and has v-tech... 3s is a heavey bitch..

Mina
[right][snapback]279363[/snapback][/right]

you beat a turbo h22?!? crazy...
as for a rsx vs 3s stock for stock, I had no problem beating em. My friend's friend has a 2004. so...speaking from experience 3s would win. raced it off the line and raced it on a roll.. took it both and this is before my fmic

This post has been edited by Ryu3x16: Apr 28, 2005 - 2:26 PM

[Mr2_Joel]

my girl has the RSX.. hook up a turbo to that motor and a 3s wont come close.. unless that 3s is modded really heavily. top to bottom.. RSX engine is DEF a better engine to mod. in my choice. but as far as the original question... Run your new 3sgte a few times tune it. and see what kind of numbers your puttin up...  IMO

bye.
[right][snapback]279568[/snapback][/right]

a better engine in what sense? You take the money needed to buy a turbo kit for the rsx, i'll take the money and buy a bigger turbo and other stuff. Same amount of money in........bubye rsx

[darksecret]

Well seeing that the KA20 is a new engine good luck finding them as cheap as the 3SGTE, and I haven't actually seen an 800hp KA20, i'm not saying there isn't one, I just haven't seen it.

[SoundSlut_dotcom]

my girl has the RSX.. hook up a turbo to that motor and a 3s wont come close.. unless that 3s is modded really heavily. top to bottom.. RSX engine is DEF a better engine to mod. in my choice. but as far as the original question... Run your new 3sgte a few times tune it. and see what kind of numbers your puttin up...  IMO

bye.
[right][snapback]279568[/snapback][/right]

a better engine in what sense? You take the money needed to buy a turbo kit for the rsx, i'll take the money and buy a bigger turbo and other stuff. Same amount of money in........bubye rsx
[right][snapback]279601[/snapback][/right]

it all depends whats been done to the engine .. some engines u cant compare.. but these 2 you can. . .
ex: i seen a turbo civic beat a turbo rsx.. ??? which leads me to believe that a 6gc st or gt turbo can even beat a rsx... so its hard to say till u run em. thats y people bet lol

[lagos]

i dont fear the rsx...esp not this one
http://s17.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3NQXNYQ...LO2FYC2EXK34Q7K

[vangSTa_celica]

What a loser. Haha.

[celicaboston1983]

what happened to the car

[XXX_Mina]

add a turbo to an rsx and i can still beat ... ive destroyed one of the cybernation's turbo rsx type S on the highway... it was a short race thou... i was a car ahead of him and gaining until my shifter mest up... because of vibrations, some pin flew off and i could'nt shift into 4th gear ... but i ****ed him up in 2nd and 3rd... i was doing about 13-15 psi on 93 octaine with octaine booster... The good thing about turbo engines, is that you can always turn up the boost... if the rsx does beat you... just get some octaine booster and turn up your boost... also if you use a stock ECU, try to get the boost cut defender asap. and dont shift into 2nd until the wheels stop spinning...

Mina

This post has been edited by XXX_Mina: Apr 28, 2005 - 7:23 PM

[97sccelica]

first car i beat when i got my swap was turpoed h22 prelude...
as for the RSX type s vs 3s celica with uped boost, ill go with the celica... stock for stock, rsx type s might win since 3s is only 225hp and the rsx is a little lighter and has v-tech... 3s is a heavey bitch..

Mina
[right][snapback]279363[/snapback][/right]

you beat a turbo h22?!? crazy...
as for a rsx vs 3s stock for stock, I had no problem beating em. My friend's friend has a 2004. so...speaking from experience 3s would win. raced it off the line and raced it on a roll.. took it both and this is before my fmic
[right][snapback]279573[/snapback][/right]

preludes are heavy. i have driven a turbo h22 prelude. it was fun, and faster than most cars on the road, but it wasnt by any means fast

[saleeka]

that 800 hp 3SGTE isnt in a FWD car, however, so that really isnt a logical comparison...

[XXX_Mina]

that 800 hp 3SGTE isnt in a FWD car, however, so that really isnt a logical comparison...
[right][snapback]279895[/snapback][/right]

doesnt matter if its not in a FWD car.. one motor is just way more capable than the other...

also: there is one in a fwd 7th gen celica pushing 640hp+

Mina

This post has been edited by XXX_Mina: Apr 29, 2005 - 12:25 PM