UPDATED PRICES: Phoenix Tuning Stage I Turbo Kit, For '94-'99 Celicas Options

[Dr_Tweak]

Price change: Stage I kit is now $2400 and the Stage II (which replaces the FMU with Greddy eManage) will be $2700. It looks right now that all '96 and newer (OBDII) Celicas may need the Stage II for ignition timing control. We will see.

Hey all,

This is a copy of my post over on vvt-i.net. I'm putting a turbo kit together in the upcoming months for the '93-'97 Corolla. Since the kit includes the 7AFE, I will be extending the kit to the Celica community. Eventually I will also offer a kit for the 5th generation Celica.

The only obstacle I will have to overcome after putting the kits together is getting the intercooler piping squared away, which is just a matter of having a 6th gen Celica at my shop to prototype on.

I'm posting here to check for interest and suggestions. Here's the post:

The Phoenix Tuning Stage I Turbo Kit will include the following:

Garrett T3 Turbo Super 60 compressor, .48 turbine
12:1 FMU (Vortech most likely)
TurboXS Boost Controller
Phoenix Tuning Turbo Manifold (you must send me your old manifold as a core)
Spearco intercooler
TurboXS BOV
Intercooler piping (that will actually fit)
Water and oil lines
Downpipe
Walbro 255lph fuel pump
Oil pan with turbo oil return connection (you must send me your old oil pan as a core)
Boost guage

I'm pretty sure that's it. It should be a pretty complete kit, if there's anything that you see missing then holler.

Several upgrade items will be available, such as guages and whatnot.

The price of the kit will be $2400 shipped. The kit will be good for 7-8 psi and will be a bolt-on kit, meaning you should be able to install it in a day with hand tools. I will provide full instructions. This is a tried and true setup that two friends of mine have been running for many many miles with good success. It makes around 160/170 hp. Premium fuel will be required.

I'm picking up a Corolla to build the prototype on, and then I'll start producing these. It will be a little bit but I'm hoping to have the first kits ready to go for early fall.

If anyone wants to make a deposit for dibs on the first kits, that will help me get them developed faster and out the door.

This post has been edited by raven_101: Apr 26, 2005 - 3:52 AM

[javi714]

is this kit going to fit the 1.8 engines

[Sev408]

^^^ yes thats the 7afe 1.8l


i think the price is a bit high:

to help that i would get a cheaper inercooler than a spearco, like a johnnyracecar.com, then i would leave the oil pan as a option, and mabye also give an option of a Safc2.

[playr158]

price is too much and as of your posting in the other thread i don't think your ready to be offering a bolt-on turbo kit....
esp if you have "if there's anything that you see missing then holler"
that and a super 60 trim on a 7afe motor?

but defenite over price esp. if i'd have to send you my old parts?
this is the same as a normal kit (TSI)

i see no benefit to this?

[StreetRacing10PS...]

wouldnt it be stage 2?? stage 1 i thougth was just turbo to intake, no intercooler or any thing upgraded like that.
EDIT: and for 2,700 you might as well buy a kit from TSI or go custom, its cheaper.
also i thoguth the T3 was 50trim.

This post has been edited by StreetRacing10PSI: Apr 24, 2005 - 10:02 PM

[Dr_Tweak]

First of all, I have a good reputation that I want to keep, and I don't want to put out a crappy kit. I am in disbelief that people are comparing this kit to the TSi kit, have any of you actually tried putting that on? NOTHING fits. Also, I'm working on a setup right now that will help me to produce equal length manifolds instead of a log type for even the stage I kit.

However, I will do my very best to keep the costs down for everyone, and the price listed is NOT FINAL. I still have some more tweaking to do on it and I'm working on a relationship right now with a large turbo part supplier so that I can buy in bulk for cheaper, and pass these savings on to my friends in the Corolla and Celica communities.

As far as the stage I stage II debate, in my opinion no turbo kit should ever be short an intercooler. That's just a bad situation. So the very entry level kit that I'm offering is going to have an intercooler and intercooler piping that FITS, not that joke of a kit that TSi offers.

The Stage II will have Greddy eManage or SAFC, I haven't decided which. It will have a pre-programmed file included that will have been tuned with a wideband 02.

playr158, the "If you see anything missing then holler" comment is pointed to accessories that people might want added, such as a boost guage or EGT guage. All the required turbo parts are in the kit. Also, if you don't think that a Super 60 is the correct sized turbo for the 7AFE, then I'd be happy to take you through the math and show you the turbo map. That turbo is the perfect size to give great midrange and top-end performance. Also you don't HAVE to send your old parts back, but there will be a core charge. This is to keep the price of the kit down.

Again, do not compare this kit to a TSI kit. This is a well built, quality turbo kit that has actually been test fit on YOUR car. This isn't just a collection of eBay parts thrown into a box for you to figure out.

Please don't think I'm trying to make a bunch of money off of other people, I'm offering a kit to the Corolla community that I've been a part of for many years (I'm a moderator on VVT-I), and I thought it made sense to offer it to our Celica brothers.

I appreciate constructive feedback because it helps me to design better parts for you. However, comments like "i don't think your ready to be offering a bolt-on turbo kit..." are not needed. If you aren't interested in getting more aftermarket parts for you car, then keep your mouth shut and don't ruin it for everyone else.

And to clarify, this kit is for the Celica ST and will work on both auto and manual versions.

[97sccelica]

how much boost will this kit run?

also, this base tuning, what kind of AFR's are you going for? what kind of timing?

just a suggestion, i would make it all on the safe side. no two cars are the same, especially when you go from NA to turbo

This post has been edited by 97sccelica: Apr 24, 2005 - 10:54 PM

[Akimbo]

7-8 PSI.

What can you do for GT's?

[Dr_Tweak]

The stage II kit which I descibed some above will be able to boost a little higher, 8-10 psi, due to better tuning.

Are there no kits for the GTs? In that case I will add it to my list. I have to get these going first though.

97sccelica, the stage I is running of a 12:1 FMU, and at 7-8 psi it runs right around 11.5:1 to 12.5:1 a/f. On the safe side, like you said. It begins to lean out if you boost over 8 psi though, so you have to restrain yourself

The stage II kit will be right on 12:1 a/f all the way up to 10 psi, and I'll be checking for EGT and detonation problems as I go to make sure it's safe.

-Doc

[97sccelica]

The stage II kit which I descibed some above will be able to boost a little higher, 8-10 psi, due to better tuning.

Are there no kits for the GTs? In that case I will add it to my list. I have to get these going first though.

97sccelica, the stage I is running of a 12:1 FMU, and at 7-8 psi it runs right around 11.5:1 to 12.5:1 a/f. On the safe side, like you said. It begins to lean out if you boost over 8 psi though, so you have to restrain yourself

The stage II kit will be right on 12:1 a/f all the way up to 10 psi, and I'll be checking for EGT and detonation problems as I go to make sure it's safe.

-Doc
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12.5:1? i have a 8:1 CR and water injection and i dont even run that lean of an AFR(i run 11.9-12.0:1 afr's)

then again i run on crappy CA gas, but idk, still seems a little lean to me.

on a plus note, i like that you are including a walbro pump

i just might still have been driving my ST-T today had i upgraded the fuel pump from the get go

[Dr_Tweak]

No, 12.5:1 will be just fine on 91 octane. Of course I'll doublecheck this before shipping with my LM-1, but several people who've been running this setup have not had problems, and they push it as high as 12 psi! (It DOES lean out at that point though so DO NOT do that if you don't want to blow your engine, especially if you're only running 91 octane.) Around here we have 93 octane so we're spoiled

It depends on the boost, I notice that it tends to lean out as you go higher. If you run 7 psi you'll probably never go over 12:1 though.

[97sccelica]

No, 12.5:1 will be just fine on 91 octane. Of course I'll doublecheck this before shipping with my LM-1, but several people who've been running this setup have not had problems, and they push it as high as 12 psi! (It DOES lean out at that point though so DO NOT do that if you don't want to blow your engine, especially if you're only running 91 octane.) Around here we have 93 octane so we're spoiled

It depends on the boost, I notice that it tends to lean out as you go higher. If you run 7 psi you'll probably never go over 12:1 though.
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k, im just giving constructive critisism, like you asked for.

really, you should include disclaimers with the instructions. wouldnt want someone to sue you when their engine blows up if they run too much boost, of they installed something incorrectly.

im ok with having 91 octane, thanks to water injection. i am sure i can lean my car out even more and run even more timing, but i chickened out.

my car spikes boost sometimes up to 1.5bar(21ish psi, i run 17psi), and when that does happen, i dont get any knock, prior to the water injection, it was a big problem for me.

[Dr_Tweak]

really, you should include disclaimers with the instructions.  wouldnt want someone to sue you when their engine blows up if they run too much boost, of they installed something incorrectly.

Oh don't worry, there will be! Thanks for the feedback and keep it coming.

[97sccelica]

really, you should include disclaimers with the instructions.  wouldnt want someone to sue you when their engine blows up if they run too much boost, of they installed something incorrectly.

Oh don't worry, there will be! Thanks for the feedback and keep it coming.
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if i think of anything else, i'll let you know

[celica47]

i know playr is in the process of doing this and nik is like one of the first ones to do this, i know both of them are talking about upgrading there internals, would you reccomend upgrading your internals before buying your kit or all depends on how much your boosting at.

[Dr_Tweak]

i know playr is in the process of doing this and nik is like one of the first ones to do this, i know both of them are talking about upgrading there internals, would you reccomend upgrading your internals before buying your kit or all depends on how much your boosting at.
[right][snapback]277660[/snapback][/right]

All depends how much you're boosting. At this level, you don't need to worry about it yet.

[javi714]

about how much power are this kits going to be putting, stage 1 and 2

[Akimbo]

There are kits for the GT i was just seeing if you would put one out.

[nik]

now what are you going to do about the obd1 anb obd2 94-95 have obd1 so what about the timing on those

and for the 96-97 with obd 2 are you just depending on the computer to make the change


i might have missed it but what about the ecu how are you going to hide the boost?

i still think people should build there own kits like myself its a learning process that helps out in the end

and you can build a kit like mine for 1500-2000

[dustin15brown]

How long did it take you though Nick?

[94ST2]

[/quote] my car spikes boost sometimes up to 1.5bar(21ish psi, i run 17psi), and when that does happen, i dont get any knock, prior to the water injection, it was a big problem for me.
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[/quote]

Youre running 17 psi on your ST? Send me a pm with your setup information.

[king_wsk]

I saw a GT kit for $2,500 but still needed some parts. All this turbo talk makes me wonder.... why not just swap in a lovely 3S-GTE... I found a few places that have them for less than $2000. I mean sure, an engine swap is quite a bit of work, but so is installing a kit. Personally I'd just rather get a couple of hundred bucks for my good old 5S-FE selling it and use that money to offset the cost of getting a 2nd or 3rd gen 3S-GTE. Maybe next year.

But back to the question, what real advantage besides being simpler to install, does a T-kit have?

[Dr_Tweak]

Okay I've got some good news. After working out some deals on the pricing, I've been able to drop the price of the Stage I kit to $2400.

I'll be using check valves to shield the MAP sensor. The timing on the '94-'95 Celicas can be retarded a little right at the distributor, I'll work out how much, but it won't be a lot. As for the OBDII cars, I'm going to have to work something out, either using the MSD unit or just go to the Stage II kit which includes Greddy eManage to control ignition and fuel.

The stage II kit looks like it will be $2700 at this point.

This post has been edited by raven_101: Apr 26, 2005 - 3:58 AM

[celicaboston1983]

are u going to make a kit for gts

[playr158]

why not swap in a 3sgte?

cause they way i'm running my 7afte project i'm look at a few more WHP (wheel horse power 10-15 more to be exact) then a 3rd gen 3sgte
a 3rd gen 3sgte runs at about 225 to the crank and 190 to the wheels
my 7afte plans should park me between 200-220 at the wheels

hows that for you
my baby 7afe just kicked your 3sgte swap in the ass and i have a stock motor what do you have?

[nik]

How long did it take you though Nick?
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to get all the parts about 4 weeks because of shipping on a few things then it took about a day and a half to install with no power tools

[nik]

Okay I've got some good news. After working out some deals on the pricing, I've been able to drop the price of the Stage I kit to $2400.

I'll be using check valves to shield the MAP sensor. The timing on the '94-'95 Celicas can be retarded a little right at the distributor, I'll work out how much, but it won't be a lot. As for the OBDII cars, I'm going to have to work something out, either using the MSD unit or just go to the Stage II kit which includes Greddy eManage to control ignition and fuel.

The stage II kit looks like it will be $2700 at this point.
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i had to retard my timing on my obd1 set up plus adjust the intake throttle plates
i though about making kits a while ago but i just dont have the time

player the 3rd gens had 255 hp 2nd gen had 225 hp and 1st had about 190-200 hp all numbers at the crank

[playr158]

yea at the crank thanks nik!

so 255 translates to about 220 at the wheels give or take a few hp
so i'm shooting to compete with a 2nd gen swap and a tough 3rd gen

but so what even still i'm running a 7AFTE
thats rights on its own

and NIK me and slipgun are doing motors together
and when we were talking one night
we talked about torque plates....a TB spacer right?
or what you refered to as a intake throttle plates?
what did you do to it?

[javi714]

what are going to be the numbers hp n tq in the stage 1 and stage 2

[Dr_Tweak]

what are going to be the numbers hp n tq in the stage 1 and stage 2
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I'm counting on around 170hp for the stage 1, and the stage II i'm hoping to crack 200 without touching the internals...

I will put together a kit for the GT if there is demand. I have to get this going first though.

Nik, did you get my email?

[playr158]

haha 200 without internals is PUSHING it way far

your trying to take a 90whp motor to 200 without internals?

[dustin15brown]

i agree that sounds kinda hard to do, but i dont know that much about 'em

[Dr_Tweak]

haha 200 without internals is PUSHING it way far

your trying to take a 90whp motor to 200 without internals?
[right][snapback]278610[/snapback][/right]

For one thing, I never said 200 WHP, I said 200. And it's been done before a number of times. Remember, a car running 175 WHP is probably right around 200hp.

Remember people, it's all in the tuning. You aren't going to destroy your internals unless it's not tuned right or you're running really high boost. The stage II kit will not be using an FMU, it will be a eManage tuned by wideband 02.

This post has been edited by raven_101: Apr 26, 2005 - 10:44 PM

[king_wsk]

why not swap in a 3sgte?

cause they way i'm running my 7afte project i'm look at a few more WHP (wheel horse power 10-15 more to be exact) then a 3rd gen 3sgte
a 3rd gen 3sgte runs at about 225 to the crank and 190 to the wheels
my 7afte plans should park me between 200-220 at the wheels

hows that for you
my baby 7afe just kicked your 3sgte swap in the ass and i have a stock motor what do you have?
[right][snapback]278237[/snapback][/right]

What have I got? sh1+. Just a 94' Stock GT with a CAI. I'm also new to modding cars, even new to 5speed. I'm just exploring my options, as I hear lots of praise about the 3s-gte.

After speaking with Urbandork, I'm leaning more towards the 5s-fte, especially since the 5s-fe is 2.2L and the 3s-gte is only 2.0L (less low end torque). Also, apparently turboing a GT can be done for less than $2000 and the results (like you said) would yield greater hp gains than the 2nd or 3rd gen 3s-gte.

Also, engine swaps require lots of down time, and if this is your only car like it is mine, then down time is bad. A bolt on turbo kit would require less than a day to install and could even be installed on in phases.

This post has been edited by king_wsk: Apr 27, 2005 - 1:27 AM

[Dr_Tweak]

Here's a general rule of thumb for the engine swap or turbo debate:

An engine swap will be more expensive and difficult, but it will have the potential to give more power down the road.

A turbo system will be cheaper and easier for the same amount of power, but you're stopped at that level, you can't really upgrade much further.

For example. You could spend say, 5 Gs and a few weeks on a 3SGTE swap. You get 225 hp. A year or two later, you decide you want more power. Bigger turbo, fuel, and management upgrade, and BAM, you're knocking on the door of 300hp.

Or

You spend say, $2700 and a couple days on a turbo kit. You get 225 hp (if that) and you saved a lot of time and money. A year or two later, you decide you want more power out of it. Guess what? SUCKS TO BE YOU!!! You either need an engine rebuild with low compression pistons and forged parts, which will run you at least another $2000, or swap for a 3SGTE.

So basically, if you're going to be happy with around 200hp and you know it, turbo. If you know you'll want more, swap. At least, that's my take on it!

[celica47]

good point... Raven how are you going to be able to turbo kits together? Are getting the parts at wholesale?!

[Dr_Tweak]

Basically I'm not making any money off them...

[celica47]

Hey raven are you known as Dr. Tweak at the vvt-i.net community?

[Dr_Tweak]

Yeap

[playr158]

ok so your goin to claim 200 crank hp?

[celica47]

lol I see the guys over there welcome you with open arms with a turbo kit. Over here you get hassled...lol iam still interested though. I think its a good way to get some decent HP for those who arent hardcore with spending money and dropping mad amounts of money into there car. Have you had any dibs yet on either of these sites Raven?

[playr158]

its not hassling its just making sure its done right
and to make sure he knows what he's doing
i welcome a turbo kit for this community its been needing one
i just want to make sure its a good one

[nik]

Nik, did you get my email?
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yeah i got it.

I dont know about the price tag but he is trying to make a direct bolt on kit like i had its not real hard (it is if your not mechically inclined) but it is time consuming.You still can do it yourself or buy a kit less time.

now to the dirt
do you have a prototype yet?
you need dyno sheets with air fuel readings
dyno video maybe
A list of parts that come in each kit.
is there any options?
what diameter piping?
what bov?
turbo internal or external gate?
is the manifold coated?
are you gong to do injectors?
spark plugs? one step colder what gap
there are alot of little things
how are you hiding the boost from the ecu i used check valves or are you going to use a new map sensor?
warrenty?

This post has been edited by nik: Apr 27, 2005 - 9:33 AM

[celica47]

one of the members ZIPSTRIPS has also turboed his 7afe check it out and confirm this, i dont think hes on here much anymore though.

[nik]

one of the members  ZIPSTRIPS has also turboed his 7afe check it out and confirm this, i dont think hes on here much anymore though.
[right][snapback]278793[/snapback][/right]

i bought his turbo, manifold and dp. I email him once in a while but i think he is into the hole 240 seen now

as far as i know there is only 3 working kits
mine
forkee
one other guy

This post has been edited by nik: Apr 27, 2005 - 9:52 AM

[celica47]

what do you mean by hes in the hole 240?

[Dr_Tweak]

playr158, I'm not going to be "claiming" anything. Either I'm going to build a kit that makes 200hp, or I'm not.

nik, thanks for the good questions.

I am picking up the test Corolla this weekend and I will start building that kit. That one will be done first and then the Celica kit once I get one to work with.

The dyno sheet will be provided. The list of parts that I have in the first post it pretty accurate. As far as options, I've had a number of people request certain specific parts be included for them. I have no problem customizing kits that way. For example, if you want to choose your own turbo, that's fine. The intercooler piping will most likely be 2" or 2 1/4", but I will test it to make sure. The wastegate is internal. I have not decided on the coating. Injectors will not be included with the stage I kit. I'm planning on copying the 3SGTE gap for the time being, but that needs to be tested. I'll be using check valves similar to what you did.

You mentioned that you needed to adjust the throttle plate? What needed to be changed and why?

[nik]

raven this is what i would do 3 stages

stage 1 (hot air) 5psi
manifold
FMU
turbo w/ internal waste gate
oil pan
drain line
feed line
filter
check valves
bov
piping (from turbo to intake)
boost guage
MBC

est whp 140

stage 2 (gettin cooler) 8-9.5psi
all of the above +
new piping
intercooler

proven 170whp 180 torque

stage 3 (hacking the brain) 10+psi
piggy back system

est 200whp

options:
spark plugs
wires
2 stage mbc
upgrade bov
powder coating
underdrive pully


i should patent this

This post has been edited by nik: Apr 27, 2005 - 10:30 AM

[nik]

what do you mean by hes in the hole 240?
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nissian 240 sx

[nik]

You mentioned that you needed to adjust the throttle plate? What needed to be changed and why?
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the dyno guys and i did a little adjusting while on the dyno the first time
why...... i might tell you

[playr158]

lol patent the normal turbo setups nik?
lol

[nik]

lol patent the normal turbo setups nik?
lol
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the 3 stage idea for the 7afe but it probably wont happen

[Dr_Tweak]

It's not just me, it's us. Why did they need to be adjusted, and what changes did you make?

Also I refuse to market a kit that's not intercooled. I will be breaking the kits up into three different ones though, which I'll go into more detail about tonight.

This post has been edited by raven_101: Apr 27, 2005 - 10:14 AM

[97sccelica]

one of the members  ZIPSTRIPS has also turboed his 7afe check it out and confirm this, i dont think hes on here much anymore though.
[right][snapback]278793[/snapback][/right]

i bought his turbo, manifold and dp. I email him once in a while but i think he is into the hole 240 seen now

as far as i know there is only 3 working kits
mine
forkee
one other guy
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and forkee got his kit from me.

and to the guy(94ST2) that asked about me running 17psi

i drive a WRX buddy.

[BBoYRuGGeD]

I know Raven personally... hes THE doc. when it comes to cars... ill vouch for him. he knows his $hit and excels in it and i look forward to seeing his kits in action!

bboy

[celica47]

alright thats what iam talking about Raven has some crediability. Nik thanks for clearing that up ,240 sx lol iam dumb. Raven you know what else would be nice just a suggestion i think pressure2 was talking about it and i think 97scelica knows about it, a water injection system to help add more cooling wouldnt be bad to look into.

[javi714]

this turbo setup sounds good I'm starting to save my money now so I could get it

[Dr_Tweak]

bboy, celica47, jav714, thanks for the votes of confidence.

By the way, raven_101 is a REALLY old screen name, my name is Dr Tweak and that's what everyone knows me by. I'll see if Coomer can fix that up for me.

[celica47]

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/cp/cp.html heres that cooling part for turbos if anybody cares to take a look.

[Dr_Tweak]

Well guys, I managed to pick up a 5th generation Celica this weekend. I've got some repairs on it and then I'll develop the turbo kit for it which will be the jump-off point for the 6th gen Celica and the Corollas.

-Doc