If you guys had a 3S-GE Celica would you....., Still deciding! Options

[Kadett]

This maybe sounds strange. Ive been here about 5 months and have seen lots of guys with engine swaps. Mainly because you US peeps do not have to same engines as we got.

I was thinking to myself, "Is it worth all the money and trouble to either upgrade my 3S-GE engine or do a Turbo swap (3rd gen 3S-GTE)"
I already have 177 horses under the hood.

So this question goes out to al of the swappers and turbo driven 7A/5S celica owners.

Would you have considered doing a swap or upgrade if you had a 3S block in your car???

[mark_426]

I'd probably turbo it..

[celicaST]

if i had a 3sge i wouldnt turbo or swap because for me anyways, 177 hp would be plenty, and turbocharging your engine would only result in reliability issues if not installed correctly. however if you enjoy projects, racing, or have the extra cash, go for it. plus im a fan of naturally aspirated engines over forced induction. however, since im in the us and have the wimpy 7a, i have no choice .

[tomazws]

If you think your 177HP still couldn't tickle your pickle, I'd say sell your car for a stock GT-FOUR.

I believe the reason why we (US people) loooooove to swap our gay ass engine is cuz GT-FOUR is not available in America.

[Smlogg]

I dont think its worth a swap, personally. It's a lot of money and you aren't looking at large gains. You are looking at anywhere from a boost of about 20-80 hp, depending on which generation you get (how much money you spend). As for turboing it, as its already been said the internal components of the 3sge would probably have to be replaced. If you aren't using the car for racing applications, id say no.

[ArizonaRed]

id be happy with a 3s and just focus on other customizations. Like said before, i'd get a whole new car if i wanted something with more power.

[elvasoshexai]

people swap 2nd gen 3sgte's and that's only about a 70hp gain too... you getting a 3rd gen 3sgte would be about the same. i don't see why not.

you probably have a lot more fast cars over there making your car feel slow in comparision

and to answer you're question. i wouldn't swap because 177hp seems so good compared to what i currently have... and i don't really need more speeding tickets

This post has been edited by elvasoshexai: Aug 29, 2005 - 12:54 AM

[CheesyLobster]

I'm sure you can tune that to get more horses if you want. I'd either keep it a 3sge or sell it for a gt4.

[Geert]

il woud modify the engiet to a gt4 engien... if i had a 2.0 GT..

-Geert

This post has been edited by Geert: Aug 29, 2005 - 11:22 AM

[Kadett]

Well to be honest. This is one of the fastest and still a bit exclusive car thats available here. If you look at the engine size (2.0 liter or less) and no forced induction.

If you look at whats available here the only 5 cars faster then mine are.

Honda Integra Type R
Honda Civic CRX VTEC
Opel Kadett GSI
Honda S2000
Toyota MR2 (1994 model and up)

Only less common ones (and affordable) are the Type R and MR2.
But i am still happy (very happy) with the engine. Maybe i will replace the cams for more agressive ones (more and longer lift)

And no i am not using the car for racing or drag strips. Its a every day car for me. Use it to go to work, shopping, vacation and shows.

You guys are right. Should be more then happy with the car as it is. Only need new paintjob + rims and then I'm done.

[Geert]

well the kadett 2.0 GSI is only faster becors of the waight (1024 kg).. i think it haves 150 hp stock..

and btw the celica is MUTCH more coooler then the kadett..

and i understand that your happy for your 2.0 GT... I cant wait to i bye 1!!

This post has been edited by Geert: Aug 29, 2005 - 11:27 AM

[doGGy]

I dunno, but isnt it the 3 gen 3SGE has 186 hp ?

First of all, i dunno, but i drove a Euro GT and it was more then enouth of power for me for daily driver... And there are alot of stuff to do on this engine, and still if you did some mods, i think 200 hp mark going N/A is really a reality......

Keep this engine and drive safe mate

[Kadett]

I dunno, but isnt it the 3 gen 3SGE has 186 hp ?

First of all, i dunno, but i drove a Euro GT and it was more then enouth of power for me for daily driver... And there are alot of stuff to do on this engine, and still if you did some mods, i think 200 hp mark going N/A is really a reality......

Keep this engine and drive safe mate
[right][snapback]329089[/snapback][/right]

Nope as it has 177bhp. Some say 175 but it is 177.

With a different ECU, cams, cai, exhaust system and better pistons(??) the 200 hp mark would be to do. But that will cost about 2500-3000 here in Holland.

Someone is already trying to get 240 BHP with has 3S-GE. He spend about 5000 euros on it as it is.

[BLADDER_MASTER]

I'm perfectly happy with my 3S-GE. It still surprises me at how powerful it is with just intake and exhaust. With bolt-on's i'm sure you won't have any problems dealing with ITR's, unless they're modded as well. IMO, keep the engine. And if you want a 3S-GTE, get a GT-Four.

[97GTinKC]

Come over here and drive an ST, then go home and be happy

[Smlogg]

Come over here and drive an ST, then go home and be happy
[right][snapback]329337[/snapback][/right]

Yea no really...

[Kadett]

^^ Guess you guys are right. Have never driven a ST before. Jumped right on the GT here

[neoklis]

I am probably the most qualified person to answer this as i have a 3S-GE Curren AND a 1998 GT4. What ever anyone may say to you, there is absolutely no comparison between a 3S-GE and the GT4. Swapping a GT4 engine would be a great difference.
And it may say in the book that the 3S-GE is 177 but it does not feel more than 150 on the road. I got killed too many times in my curren to say this.
I recommend you swap the GT4 engine and not Turboing your current engine, if the price is more or less the same.

[Kadett]

To me it does feel like that i have more horses. But power @ flywheel is always more then at the road. Every car measures its from the flywheel. I can keep up with a Teg R and a CRX Vtec when already rolling. The reason my Celica is still a bit "slow" for its power its because of first gear. After that its drivers heaven.

And to think of it. If i cant afford a GT4 as it is right now (Have enough money on the bank, thats not a problem, but not for this purpose, like to buy a house in the near future) then i probably cant afford the turbo since its gonne be about 6-7 k. Swapping a bit more but i can get money back for the 3S-GE block.

I can get about 8k euro back for this car (withou ICE and JDM lights).
A UK/German/Italian GT-4 wil probably cost me between 12-15k. Then i have to pay car tax cost, DOT/MOT checkup so that is about 3k total.

So i can have a 4 from 15-18k euro. Yeah i will have a 4 then but insurrance and road tax go skyhigh. Still have engough time to decide.

[BLADDER_MASTER]

The 3S-GE might feel slow, but in reality it isn't. I think part of the reason why it feels slow is because of the final drive on the S54 transmission. If you were to put a 5S-FE S54, it would feel quicker and probably run quicker as well.

[tomazws]

Come over here and drive an ST, then go home and be happy
[right][snapback]329337[/snapback][/right]

Yea no really...
[right][snapback]329348[/snapback][/right]

****ing sad **** right there but that's so true.....

I wanna cry....

[BLADDER_MASTER]

He doesn't need to come over here. Toyota sold a Celica ST over there.

[TomPoz]

If you can afford GT4 - forget swaps / mods / whatsoever. I have driven GT4 recently and difference to GT in power / handling / acceleration is huge. I would get GT4 for myself but in my country (even though in EU) I would have to add 65% of excise tax to average Europan cost of GT4 - that makes it ridiculously expensive. Though, there was one available here a month ago (import from Italy) for 5k EUR!!! Good shape, just turbo needed repair / replacement. Someone bought it just before me.

This post has been edited by TomPoz: Sep 1, 2005 - 3:07 AM

[yozef]

I understand you. I am in the same situation. Do not know if I should modify the 3sge or change it, or change car.

I love the negine, so reliable, and I think it is quite powerful, especially for its age. I think it is tru the transmission is letting the car down but is there a solution to this?

I think the first three gears are tooooooooo looooonnnnnnnnnngggg!

However just for the record I still got a 15.01 1/4 mile out of my unstripped, no cat but otherwise standard 3s-ge.

[Kadett]

@ Tompoz: We also have to pay a ridiculous price for importing a GT-4 but the price of the car itself is low enough to make it work.

[BLADDER_MASTER]

I understand you.  I am in the same situation.  Do not know if I should modify the 3sge or change it, or change car.

I love the negine, so reliable, and I think it is quite powerful, especially for its age.  I think it is tru the transmission is letting the car down but is there a solution to this?

I think the first three gears are tooooooooo looooonnnnnnnnnngggg!

However just for the record I still got a 15.01 1/4 mile out of my unstripped, no cat but otherwise standard 3s-ge.
[right][snapback]330096[/snapback][/right]

IMO, 1st and 2nd gear are short while 3rd, 4th, and 5th are long. You can try doing what I mentioned earlier by swapping in a USDM 5S-FE S54 transmission. The 5S-FE S54 has shorter gears compared to the 3S-GE S54. But I don't think you can find that transmission outside of the U.S.

I haven't gone to the track to verify, but I feel like my car is running mid-14's with just intake and exhaust on my 3S-GE.

[Hanyo]

i would keep the 3sge.

For some reason, i keep getting the feeling that the 3sgte is a heavy engine. And Weight is always a problem with sports cars. I would just mod the 3sge and be happy with it. After all, the 7afte guys are only getting 180 hp max.

so be happy, you lucky......

[TomPoz]

Kadett, you could always do n/a tuning to 3sge by putting in:
- sporty camshafts
- lighter flywheel
- piggyback with new fuel map

This should give you redline at 8k rpm, ~200 hp and much better torque in lower ranges.

[yozef]

You cannot "feel" a mid 14's you have to time it on a proper track. Do you have the transmission converion yourself?

Is there somewhere documented that gears are shorter on the USD S54?

Finally you cannot rev a car to 8k with a piggyback. You need a complete ECU!

[doGGy]

Well, my mister 2 (mr2) has 3SGE engine in it.. Even if it is 2 gen, but im pretty happy with this engine... Even it is 160 hp only but it is almost enouth for me. And dunno about the 8K rpm, but myne revs nicely till the 8K rpm (not more ofcorse) but no limiter till 7.900 rpm for sure. i was thinking about turboing this engine, but desided to leave it N/A. Gonna do some basic moods on it first, then will see what else is gonna be put on it

[yozef]

Do not know about the rev limiter on the ST but on the GT with 3s-ge its 7200 and you cannot change unless you have a complete diffrrent ECU (AFAIK)

[Kadett]

^^ Yup If you want to go higher then that you will have to replace the ECU!

[TomPoz]

Guys, friend of mine did the forementioned n/a tuning on his GT without piggyback and now his rev limit is 8k rpm.

[BLADDER_MASTER]

You cannot "feel" a mid 14's you have to time it on a proper track.  Do you have the transmission converion yourself?

Is there somewhere documented that gears are shorter on the USD S54?

Finally you cannot rev a car to 8k with a piggyback.  You need a complete ECU!
[right][snapback]330439[/snapback][/right]

The reason why I say I feel like I run mid-14's is because i've ran against cars doing mid-14's and i've either beat them or kept up with them.

I've yet to find documentation showing the gear ratios of the 3S-GE S54, but there is documentation of the 5S-FE S54 gear ratios. But I know for a fact that the gears are different because I noticed the difference after I swapped the engine. Not only that but it's been verified over at MR2OC.com that the gears are different as well.

[Kadett]

1st gear: 3,285
2nd gear: 1,960
3rd gear: 1,322
4th gear: 1,028
5th gear: 0,820
reverse: 3,153
diff: 3,944

This is for my GT from The Dutch Fan Club

From here the gears from US GT

1st gear: 3.285
2nd gear: 1.960
3rd gear: 1.322
4th gear: 1.028
5th gear: .820
reverse: 3.153
diff: 4.176

So bladder was right. Final drive is different. But from what i could tell that should make the car faster in acceleration but lower in top speed! When using the same enginge of course!

This post has been edited by Kadett: Sep 3, 2005 - 2:39 AM

[BLADDER_MASTER]

1st gear: 3,285
2nd gear: 1,960
3rd gear: 1,322
4th gear: 1,028
5th gear: 0,820
reverse: 3,153
diff: 3,944

This is for my GT from The Dutch Fan Club

From here the gears from US GT

1st gear: 3.285
2nd gear: 1.960
3rd gear: 1.322
4th gear: 1.028
5th gear: .820
reverse: 3.153
diff: 4.176

So bladder was right. Final drive is different. But from what i could tell that should make the car faster in acceleration but lower in top speed! When using the same enginge of course!
[right][snapback]330746[/snapback][/right]

Indeed. Thanks for the info Kadett.

[TomPoz]

Well, Kadett - I gave your issue another thought. And I think you are right - there is no need to turbo or swap 3sge. I had plans to do such setup but now changed my mind. I definitely want to have turboed car, but for it to be fun I will buy (if Mr. Wallet allows) MR2 (drifting :-D). With Celi I will just go for full engine maintenance to bring it to 100% stock specs, plus sporty camshafts, light flywheel, piggyback, custom CAI and exhaust. This will bring me to ~200 hp and still allow to race 1/4 mile in Profi class (n/a 1.6+ litre engines, FWD). If I turboed then I would have to go to Turbo class which currently has some 1000+ hp monsters - no point competing with such things.

Thanks for inspiration.

[kevstir]

a guy on the uk celica-club got 188bhp from his 3s-ge thats with an induction kit cat back exhaust and dastek uni chip all setup on the rolling road, the peak bhp isnt as good as you would hope but if you look at his graphs theres plenty of improvment lower down , 5k theres a 15bhp increase also the increase in torgue below 3k must make it a dream to drive , if he added a decat and got a better cold air feed setup i recon he could see close to the 200bhp

http://www.celica-club.co.uk/cgibin/phpbb2...ghlight=unichip