GT2 vs 3000GT, Who wins? Options

[ToYCeLi8]

Ok i know that the 3000gt has a V6 220hp, about 200+ lbs/ft of torque fwd (the base model and SL). WEIGHT=??
- 6th gen. celi. with a 2nd gen. 3sgte swap in it will have around 220+hp and 215+ lbs/ft of torque. RIGHT? or somewhere around there? WEIGHT = 2700 lbs (+/-)
- The 3kGT gets CAI/H/E 2.25" piping, underdrive pulleys, Denso sparkplugs, nology wires, and S-AFC, and an aftermarket throttle body (about 62mm).
- The GT2 gets the 2.5" custom piping, and thats it.
How would this race end up in a... 1.) 1/4 mile? 2.) Top Speed?

*My friend has a 3kGT*
**And he doesn't know about my soon to be GT2**

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

Im assuming that by GT2 you mean your celica with the 2nd gen 3sgte......??
I dunno.....sounds like a pretty close one. I always thought that 3000gt's were pretty heavy looking though........Let us know who wins after you get the swap done!

[Coomer]

QUOTE (Silver94CelicaOwner @ May 3, 2003 - 6:46 PM)

Im assuming that by GT2 you mean your celica with the 2nd gen 3sgte......??

Yeah, why do you call it a GT2? I assumed from the thread title that you were talking about a Porsche 911 GT2, which would absolutely tear a 3000GT VR-4 apart.

Anyway, I think that you'd win in the 1/4, because 3000GTs are pretty heavy, and I don't believe that they have all wheel drive unless they're the VR-4 model, which would win in case anyone's wondering. I'm not sure about top speed though.

[Mage]

Yeah, I was like "uhh $175k+ super-car porsche against a 3000gt???"

[hiflytsi]

I think the early 3k's had optional rear wheel drive for lower models, so check what year it is, or basically, does it have flip up lights or quad bubble eyes.

[ToYCeLi8]

I am sorry guys, i guess wasn't very clear. My 95' GT w/ a st185 swap (soon to be) VS my friend's 92' 3000gt FWD. This is my friend's 2nd 3kGT, so im some what familiar with the performance specs., 220hp, 210 lbs/ft of torque (+/-) FWD. So yeah i was wondering would this be a fun race? How do we compare in the 1/4 mile and top speed?

[94TRDCeli]

all non VR-4 models are crap. my friend has beat a few in his grand am..and the only thing he did to it was put a K&N filter in it so i assume you would win

[Guest_Jason_*]

You would rip on him, off the line and down the 1/4 mi.

Those things are outrageously and horribly heavy. We are talking it may be 220hp, but when its on the road, it feels like 150-160. I've seen a new 2003 SI with a CAI and Catback hang on its bumper and slowly start gaining on it.

[ToYCeLi8]

On the other hand though, the VR-4, which my spoiled friend will end up getting next, is a whole different story. I would love to see a VR-4 against a MKIV supra. Both are 320hp, but isnt the VR-4 AWD? Would that give it an advantage if they are both good drivers in the 1/4 mile?

[97sccelica]

HAHAHAHAHA

a GT2 would own any non vr4 3kgt

and for those of you that didnt come from celica.net, GT2 is the term for a celica GT with a 3sgte swap, since the celica GT4 has the same engine and 4wd so with 2wd its GT2

but the super car GT2 would definately win

ne way

3000gt's are heavy and have inefficient trannies, no matter what mods you do to that car, it wont gain much HP simply becuase it is NA and it is almost maxed out, bolt ons that he has will only raise the crank hp to maybe 260hp if the guy is lucky. now take a celica which weighs 1000-1300 pounds less with the stock HP of a 2nd gen 3sgte of 225 at the crank. common sense, come on.

oh and dont forget, the SL has 220hp, the base model has a 180 or so HP engine so it is slow.

my friend has a stock 91 SL and if only he had traction the car would be great. the car attracts a lot of ricers and they all get put in their place. but a word of advice...

dont try to race a neon srt4. you will get your ass handed to you(unless you are turbo or have an engine swap)

[97sccelica]

QUOTE (ToYCeLi8 @ May 4, 2003 - 1:54 PM)

On the other hand though, the VR-4, which my spoiled friend will end up getting next, is a whole different story. I would love to see a VR-4 against a MKIV supra. Both are 320hp, but isnt the VR-4 AWD? Would that give it an advantage if they are both good drivers in the 1/4 mile?

stock for stock a VR4 would get owned by a supra TT, they may have the same HP numbers, and the VR4 spools faster but the extra weight kills the car. off the line the VR4 would most likely be ahead but the supra would be lighter and as every one knows, a lighter car with the same HP is faster.

your friend is spoiled, but while the car is fast it isnt the most reliable. that car is an analog controlled computer. every part of that car has a computer attached to it(ok not exactly but you get the point)

another problem is the ecu of all 1st gen 3000gt's, the capacitors in all the ecu's have a 9 year life, and after that they begin to go bad and pop, causing a few problems

that and the car is a b*tch to work on

[NEVERSTOP]

3000gt is another name for the supra... just a little FYI
and the 2000gt is the mr2

[95STCelica]

i saw a Porsche GT2 at Mud City (restaurant where i work) the other day. 465 hp awd...yeah wow..

[XE_Nathaniel]

Actually the base version of the mitsubishi GTO (I would never call it a 3000GT because thats teh Supras name.....we got it first!) has around 160-180 crap HP. The SL has 222 (or something) and the VR-4 has 320HP. There was a guy on th Supra forums BEGGING to sell his VR-4 because he wants a Supra so bad.

-Nate

baby Supras rule (celicas)

[Mage]

Don't just make up your own name for a car because you think it sounds cool

[aaronc222]

3000GT was the original name Toyota gave it. Way back in the late 60's(or was it early 70's?). Either way, it wasn't the name on it when it hit showrooms, but it was the concept name.

[FallenHero]

I hate 3000's. They cannot be major performance cars because of the weight issue. I have heard that the VR-4 conv. weighs in at over 4000lbs! You cannot corner with that.

moving on...

The peon SRT-4

You cannot have that kind of power at that price without cutting corners. I bet recalls start pouring in a year from now.
(Mopar is going to start offering a factory turbo upgrade to bring the car to 320hp!!!) <---crazy as hell.

[Mage]

QUOTE (aaronc222 @ May 4, 2003 - 11:14 PM)

3000GT was the original name Toyota gave it. Way back in the late 60's(or was it early 70's?). Either way, it wasn't the name on it when it hit showrooms, but it was the concept name.

Yeah, I meant the "GT2 = FWD 3sgte celica" bit.

[aaronc222]

The GT-2 name is something that has been floating around Celica.net for a while now. It started when someone asked what we would call a FWD 3SGTE. It would no longer be an ST or a GT.

[95STCelica]

QUOTE (FallenHero @ May 5, 2003 - 12:15 AM)

I hate 3000's. They cannot be major performance cars because of the weight issue. I have heard that the VR-4 conv. weighs in at over 4000lbs! You cannot corner with that. moving on... The peon SRT-4 You cannot have that kind of power at that price without cutting corners. I bet recalls start pouring in a year from now. (Mopar is going to start offering a factory turbo upgrade to bring the car to 320hp!!!) <---crazy as hell.

So now domestic engines and tranny's are only gonna last till 50K miles..before it was 100K and then they were shot..320 HP with no upgraded internals? I pity anyone that buys that thing

[ToYCeLi8]

QUOTE (97sccelica @ May 4, 2003 - 2:03 PM)

dont try to race a neon srt4. you will get your ass handed to you(unless you are turbo or have an engine swap)

You're a little too late for that. I had to find out the hard way.

[FallenHero]

I guess it's sorta like a 3rd gen RX-7. They were hella fun until about 60k miles. But what a bad azz 60k miles...

[Mage]

QUOTE (aaronc222 @ May 5, 2003 - 5:56 AM)

The GT-2 name is something that has been floating around Celica.net for a while now. It started when someone asked what we would call a FWD 3SGTE. It would no longer be an ST or a GT.

yes, so "made up" perfectly describes it.

[bufferdan]

this is a funny thread with tons of misinformation....anyways, i wonder how this race went? What are some times that the gt-2 and gt-4's are running?

Base/SL 3000GT's
Weight = 3200lbs for Base models....3300lbs for SL models
91-93 3000GT's are DOHC 222hp
94-96 are all DOHC 218HP (Emissions)
97-99 they either had a SOHC 160hp or 218hp DOHC

VR-4's
Weight= 3800lbs
91-93 are 300hp (Free boost mod =320hp)
94-99 are 320hp

VR-4's are capable of running into the 12's virtually STOCK
Non-turbo DOHC 5spds usually run high 15's to high 14's depending on conditions. I ran a 15.4 at 91mph with my stock 3000GT on bad clutch and plugs/wires. Im pretty sure i could bust a 14.9 today with my bigger tires on the front and running properly.

[boosted_K2]

[bufferdan]

This is my conclusion



I own one...they are decently powered cars and the vr-4's are very fast and can haul that almost 4000lb butt. Nothing looks as pretty either

A GT-2 celica probably will not run very fast times...try keeping that little light front end on the ground during a launch.

[bufferdan]

3000GT's and stealth's are not DSM's either... The steering on mine is tighter than mr-2's i have driven and also celica's.

[boosted_K2]

news to me, i was almost positive they were built at the DSM plant...

[97sccelica]

[kuya1284]

After I get my front fixed (the body shop said they'll have room for me in 3 weeks), I'll go FINALLY take my car to the tracks... I'll run her with stock boost, 15 lbs, and 18lbs and let you all know wassup...

I still need to program the speed map feature in my EBC.

[bufferdan]

[OOBE]

3000GTs are heavy, even the NA ones. The day I took mine to the dyno and it laid down 454.5 RWHP and 461.6 RWTQ, the next car only dynoed like 168.x RWHP and 171.x RWTQ ...and what it was? a 3000GT SL.

[Supersprynt]

[Batman722]

bufferdan is right, and thanks for providing some real info Have any others here besides bufferdan ever driven a 3KGT or a Stealth ? I have. For a few years. I had a 93 Stealth ES (n/a) and it would easily take a celica GT. Yes they weigh alot (especially VR-4s with the AWD) and the trannys are crap if they are consistantly pushed too hard.

But, what is the weight difference between a ST, GT, and a GT4 ? It looks like you guys are comparing a lower model 3K to a GT4. Put a GT4 (or GT2) and a VR-4 side by side and have it out. This is something we would all love to see. Whoever beats who would be the final answer.

If anyone wants to post on 3Si.org to set this up I am sure they would be more than willing.

my $.02

[Supersprynt]

At first I posted the VR4 would own, but tahts outta power figures. My friend has a 93' and I havent run the 3s Celica with the VR4 but i've been in the VR4 while he boosted it up to like 20lbs. Stock its 300hp and boosted that high its like 350 or something. Its a fast car yes, but his tranny is shot. The ST205 i think would most definately stand a chance and own on cornering and stuff. The VR4 has all wheel steer however, but still its not a rally car.

The VR4 just has more power and 4wd so it launches hard with hardly any tire spin. Its just a different level.

This post has been edited by Supersprynt: May 13, 2004 - 12:08 PM

[FallenHero]

agreed. the 300GT, 300ZXTT, RX7, and SupraTT all fought it out back in the mid 90's for the ultimate import supercar. The celicas just aren't in the hunt.

[Chrobis]

is it just me, or did anyone else relize this topic is over a year old...

And a CRX can be made to run 9's, so pretty much any tuned car could beat other cars.

[kuya1284]

[97sccelica]

[bufferdan]

what?? did they make a new 3000gt in the last year IT really doesnt matter..what matters is the information is wrong and the thread never actually was finished...thats why i brought it up.

Anyways..a VR-4 doesnt weigh that much more than any of the other cars in its class..what are TT supra's and 300zx's?? 3600lbs?? Whooppy... Somedrivers weigh almost 300lbs right there

A VR-4 running 20psi safely is a very modded vr-4...we are talking around 500 hp or more most likely.

OOBE: You cant compare a Forced induction car to a N/A...there are plenty of VR-4's laying down over 400 ALL WHEEL HORSEPOWER.
170hp at the wheels for a N/A is about right..Go dyno a GT celica and see what you get. Not enough to keep with a N/A 3000GT... My g/f knows what i did to her celica GT just up to 50mph

I would still rather have a toyota supra over a vr-4 anyday though... supras seem to have better high performance reliability over mitsubishi's.

[97sccelica]

[uzthedentist]

how can u call the car a gt2? thats a porsche! celica turbo would be better

[bufferdan]

Also OOBE...Your Supra weighs more than a Non-turbo 3000GT.

88 turbo supra manual = 3530
93 N/A 3000GT= Base model =3307 SL=3461

Real heavy huh? Kinda weird how everyone thinks that all 3000GT's are heavy just because the VR-4's are 3800lbs. They may be heavy compared to a celica but they really arent very heavy when it comes to it.

[uzthedentist]

no, but they do use electronics to control most of the handling of the car, hence not so pleasurable to drive

[bufferdan]

HUH??? What are the talking about? They have electronic controled suspension (ie Sport and touring modes) just like corvettes. That is a really nice feature and stiffens or softens the suspension depending on what you want. The Vr-4's are All wheel steering which is not electronic but does help cornering. That all they have...

[uzthedentist]

yep cos corvettes handle great dont they......

dont they have eletronically controlled diffs?

This post has been edited by uzthedentist: May 13, 2004 - 3:22 PM

[bufferdan]

yeap... and 3000GT's are pretty fun to drive also! i have Intrax springs and new kyb-gr2's on mine and it handles awesome! It didnt handle too bad stock either though.

[uzthedentist]

interesting, ive never driven one so apologies, not cussing your car just going on wat ive read and seen, i had a 3000gt try to keep up with me once on a bit of a twisty road section near where i live. he was struggling big time. probably a crap driver then

[bufferdan]

no?? Vr-4's have two limited slip differentials..probably what the GT-4 has

[bufferdan]

[bufferdan]

here is some info on the Vr-4 AWD system..
http://www.stealth316.com/2-awd.htm

You know anything about the gt-4 system?

[uzthedentist]

yeah but my 4 has over 300bhp lol.

yeah the 4 has a mechanical rear torsen limited slip diff and superstrut suspension. Im also running bigger strut braces all round and a fat rear anti roll bar to eliminate understeer

[bufferdan]

the joys of turbo

[Supersprynt]

RE: the VR4 @20lbs, i dont really kno the exact pressure he was pushing it was up there tho. I'll ask either today or not. THe car is stock except for filter and boost controller.

[bufferdan]

no more than 14psi

[Supersprynt]

haha. I think its over 14 but who knows. He isnt exactly the best to this car

[OOBE]

[OOBE]

[bufferdan]

just dropping a 3sgte into the celica isnt going to be 400+hp... a 210hp celica with no traction off the line isnt going to go very far very fast. FWD 3000gt's have the same problem but they do have bigger tires and more weight in the front so the race could be relatively close off the line. Im pretty sure the turbo celica can take the 3000 anyways but you just never know.

[uzthedentist]

ud have 2 spend an extra 6000 to get a stock 3sgte to 400hp. then again if racing sum1 in a straight line gives the best idea on how fast acar is then any car can be made fast, throe in sum cornerd on the other hand....

[OOBE]

It's cool racing in a straight line but you need some good handling too. For example, my 87 Supra is fast but the handling sucks and it's too easy to loose control even on a slight curve...now my 88 Supra has a better suspension (Tein HA coilovers kick ass ) and I can still accelerate on curves, you know what I mean...the road is straight and then it curves a little bit, but that little bit still makes my 87 loose control and be all over the place. So the formula is to have a little bit of everything...have some balance

[Hym3n]

I read all of page one and wanted to puke. Going to clear up some facts here first--some of this may have been covered in the second, third, and fourth pages, but this is it, the definitive stuff. I'm in the market for a 3000GT, frequently meet-up with the Dallas 3Si (3000GT/Stealth International) group, and have since learned a ton about these cars.

1st Gen ('91-'93): Base/SL 3.0L V6 - 218-222hp/200-215ft./lbs. torque, VR-4 (Twin Turbo, AWD, AWS) 320hp/315ft./lbs. torque
2nd Gen ('94-'98): Base 3.0L V6 - 161hp/160ft./lbs. torque, SL 3.0L V6 - 218-222/200-215 ft./lbs. torque, VR-4 (Twin Turbo, AWD, AWS) 320hp/315ft./lbs. torque
"3rd Gen" ('99): Same as above, different exterior styling.

The Base model usually weighs in just around 3300lbs curb weight, so tack on a few more hundred for driving weight. SL models are ~100lbs. heavier than base models, and the VR-4 another ~100-200lbs. over the SL. The average VR-4, including driver and gas is around 4000lbs. Heavy yes, slow no. Check out http://www.3si.org, and take a look at their forums. From there, you'll find the most comprehensive database of any car I've seen outside Civic's and the SR20DET. There are more than just a handful of 3000GT's that run a consistent 11-second 1320, and most of the VR-4's (couple thousand or so), have broken into the 12's with very minor mods.

Mod-wise, there is a HUGE aftermarket for the 3000GT/Stealth. Find out where your buddies parts are from, and I can give you rough estimates of how much FWHP each part makes. Every part available for the 3/S aftermarket has been extensively dyno tested in the years it's been out, and finding numbers such as these is not difficult. Shockingly, dyno results off common upgrade mods such as downpipes, headers, and the Borla exhaust are quite high, each part respectively in the 10-20hp range. That is a HUGE gain. The reason being is that Mitsu was under tight emissions standards, and even with minor mods these cars will not pass any emissions standards whatsoever. I know that with the parts you have listed, this guy should be throwing about 230 to the ground, unless he purchased el-cheapo parts (yes, that can always be done, but the results are less gratifying). Ask where his parts are from, and if he knows the brand name, or the website he got it off of (3sxperformance.com, etc..), then odds are, it's good quality stuff.

There is no RWD 3000GT, although there are two in existance, both custom applications. And even though the 3kgt you'll be racing is FWD, he'll have 10x better traction than you off the line due to much wider tires (stock are 16x8.5" on a '92 I believe), and a heavier front end. Stock base/SL models have a LSD, which should also help.

Your Celica is getting, what you said was 210hp, so probably 180 to the ground, 50 less (guesstimating) than the 3kgt, but it weighs, likely, a thousand pounds less. The 1320-race should be pretty damn good, granted you both shift well.

Good luck!

-Brian

[bufferdan]

tru dat! One thing though... they only started putting SOHC 164hp engines in 97-99 3000GT's. Stealth had a option for SOHC during all years.

[Hym3n]

Yup, that's why I want the '94-'96, or the '97+ SL model. I really just want a second gen.. IMO it looks better, but less Ferrari-like. If only I could get first gen headlights/signals on a second gen front/rear/sides.. and the viper hood.. mmmm

-brian

[97sccelica]

[bufferdan]

mine is a 5spd and it mostly spins the tire the tranny is closest too..same with my celica.

[bufferdan]

the difference between 5spd's and auto's in mitsubishi's is night and day. There is like a second difference between the two in quarter mile times. I had a guy try to keep with me one time in a auto and he couldnt hang.