Well, my turbo stopped spinning.. need some input, Intercooler = cause? Options

[mark_426]

Intro: Well, I took my car to celicagurl152003 and had quite a bit of expense put into it.

Throughout the work to my car, the intercooler "could not be installed" and I was told the car would be "fine, if not better" without it, due to the length of the piping. Ok, so I drive it home, seemed to run fine, minus something occasionally that seemed like a backfire if I punched it and tried to run the rev's up in the current gear.

Regardless, I was doing some electrical work this past weeked (7-10th), and I finished some of the electrical up, and got the battery charged, and went for a drive. THis is when I first noticed no boost. After it cooled and such, looked at it a bit, and asked some opinions of some of the alltrac people locally, didnt really get anywhere. Anyway, I had to change oil, and some other stuff under the hood, and finished that up, pulled it out my driveway, turned around, still no boost.

So, the real question: Anyway, my turbo currently will work about 10* back and forth from its current location, and then it feels like it hits an obstruction. It turns freely for the few degrees it does turn, but will turn no further.

What would cause this? Is it easily fixable? Would it be related to having no intercooler?


Heres a pic of the engine bay as it was until the turbo stopped functioning:

[shin]

you need a intercooler and new turbo!!

[lagos]

how long did u drive without and intercooler and did u boost the car at all without one?

[mark_426]

I have the intercooler - it is currently installed. They just didnt put it in nor plumb it for me..

I drove it for under 200 miles without it, and boosting to around 9psi (a little over .6 bar.. where they set it and said to use it)

editx2:

Any suggestions for a new turbo (see below)

I talked to shin about it a little bit - dont take it the wrong way. I'm trying to make a case for myself.



This post has been edited by mark_426: Oct 14, 2005 - 6:16 PM

[lagos]

well.. .that probably killed it. compressor surge or some type of heating issue or somthing is responsible for it.

you should NEVER boost without and intecooler. you risk major damage to yor motor.i could understand if you had that hookup just to baby the car home with no boost, but you shouldnt have been boosting at all with it.

why are you having somone else work on your car? your really need to know all you can and do your own work if you own a swaped or turbo celica.

[Rjb23]

Uhmm yea turbo + no intercooler = dun dun duhh!

[mark_426]

I had them rebuild the motor while they were painting it. Made things a little easier, or so I thought.

If I could go back, I'd buy phats car, and swap it myself. DMC gave me rod knock, bad axles, cracked radiator, bad tires, cracked bumper, and some other cool stuff. At least the turbo worked.

I replaced a lot of stuff myself thus far.. and its looking like I'm going to become a lot more familliar with it.

[jgreening]

I don't think running without an intercooler would hurt the turbo. The turbo discharges hot air and the intercooler is in between the turbo outlet and the throttle body. The problem with the turbo more likely occurred as a result of running without a blow off valve.

That said, I agree with what other people have said about running the 3s without an intercooler. You are asking for knock and eventually detonation when you fail to cool air. Luckily, the stock ECU is pretty good at controlling timing when it senses knock which has probably saved you thus far but you are a blown knock sensor away from catastrophe. You really should CEASE running the car until you have a capable intercooler.

Good luck.

This post has been edited by jgreening: Oct 14, 2005 - 7:55 PM

[Rjb23]

Stock st185 do not have blow off valves.

[mark_426]

I did/do have a BOV though... and it was first set wrong, and then I reset it after I got the car home.

[jgreening]

Stock st185 do not have blow off valves.
[right][snapback]344734[/snapback][/right]

This is true but not really informative. Its one of the only turbo cars without a stock bypass valve (which serves the same purpose as a blow off valve). If you plan to run more than 7psi, you will significantly compromise the longevity of your turbo without a BOV or bypass valve.

[jgreening]

I did/do have a BOV though... and it was first set wrong, and then I reset it after I got the car home.
[right][snapback]344735[/snapback][/right]

I see no BOV in that pic.

This post has been edited by jgreening: Oct 14, 2005 - 7:57 PM

[GT4WRC]

It is quite feasible to run a turbo without an intercooler. However, only if the boost is 6psi maximum. Below that figure, an intercooler will not offer any gains.
There have been several big car manufacturers over the years which have produced a turbocharged production model without an i/c fitted. But the boost has always been 6psi on less.

Take your induction pipe off the turbo and start the car. You will be able to see if the turbine is spinning or not.
Gary

[lagos]

Take your induction pipe off the turbo and start the car. You will be able to see if the turbine is spinning or not.
Gary
[right][snapback]344745[/snapback][/right]

not on our 2nd gen afm based cars...haha

[mark_426]

I have it off, and I cannot turn it with my fingers...

[jgreening]

Thanks for pointing it out...I have never seen that kind of BOV before. Are you saying that you were running the car without it or when it wasn't operational?

[mark_426]

The BOV has been hooked up all along. However, the spring setting was set too low, and the valve would open too easily. I adjusted it after I picked the car up, and was working fine.

Its also th same bov as


http://www.6gc.net/images/member_photos/939_7.jpg

http://www.6gc.net/images/member_photos/2526_2.jpg

This post has been edited by mark_426: Oct 14, 2005 - 9:09 PM

[GT4WRC]

Take your induction pipe off the turbo and start the car. You will be able to see if the turbine is spinning or not.
Gary
[right][snapback]344745[/snapback][/right]

not on our 2nd gen afm based cars...haha
[right][snapback]344748[/snapback][/right]

[jgreening]

Gary, many of us running swaps are using the Gen II 3sgte due to parts availability in the states. If you take off the intake piping with the AFM, the car won't start. This can be done with the Gen III but not with the Gen II do to the AFM.

[mark_426]

Guys, can I run the car with the turbo not spinning? Would it hurt the turbo to keep running the car?

Is there any way to mke the wastegate stay open? Would it be better/ok then?

[lagos]

Take your induction pipe off the turbo and start the car. You will be able to see if the turbine is spinning or not.
Gary
[right][snapback]344745[/snapback][/right]

not on our 2nd gen afm based cars...haha
[right][snapback]344748[/snapback][/right]

[right][snapback]344765[/snapback][/right]

the car would stall out right away without the air intake piping and afm being air tight onto the turbo. with a 3rd gen map based motor, you could start it up and let it run to see the turbo spin

[lagos]

Guys, can I run the car with the turbo not spinning? Would it hurt the turbo to keep running the car?

Is there any way to mke the wastegate stay open? Would it be better/ok then?
[right][snapback]344768[/snapback][/right]

if you cant spin the turbo by hand, then the turbo is dead. buy another ct26 or fork out the cash for a 27 rebuild.

dont drive the car in the meantime. you problem has nothing to do with the wastegate, so dont try to mess with that. my theory is that your turbo died from some type of compressor surge cause by not running an intercooler and having such a direct path from the turbo to throttle body. 9psi blasting through such short piping was probably too much air even for an hks bov to let out.

dont take this the wrong way or anything, but it sounds like you really dont know much about this car. if i were you i would hit the net, big time. start reading everything you can find on mr2oc.com , celicatech.com , and other sites you find on google.

[mark_426]

Where should I try to get a replacement CT26.. or how fast is ATS at getting a CT26 upgraded, or a CT27?

(I need the car really as soon as possible, I havent been able to run it since... June, and its getting rough with my college schedule, work, and other stuff)

This post has been edited by mark_426: Oct 14, 2005 - 9:38 PM

[lagos]

look on ebay for a used one

[jgreening]

or the parts for sale section of mr2oc.com. You can get a used ct26 for about $150-200.

[mark_426]

Shin suggested ATS - Is it worth the extra money to get the warranty and upgrade it through ATS? Or is this not very fast to get done?

[jgreening]

The nice thing about the ct27 is that it is an upgrade and will give you 30-40 more whp at the same PSI. Its 850 with a core exchange (you send the old turbo in and if they can use it to make a new ct27 they will give you $300 off the $1150 price). One thing to consider about the ct27 is that it is a rebuilt turbo. There are MANY people who have had bad luck with rebuilt turbos lasting. Of course, the shop that does the rebuild is key and ATS has a good reputation. That said, these have not been on the market long enough to know for sure. As for availability, you can email Ken Blake at kblake@atsracing.net and he can tell you if they have any on the shelf. Good luck.

[playr158]

I was told the car would be "fine, if not better" without it,

#1 i think you need new friends they just bad for ya....

from the CT27 pressure2 is running one pretty sure ATS?
(art/manny correct me if i'm wrong there)
his runs beautifully....
also search around the supra forums if you want to for a turbo i've occasionally notice them around there as well

and jay mentioned mr2oc......headover there for some good reading material on your motor......the more you know the better off you are...

and good luck

[GT4WRC]

So even if the AFM was still plugged in and only the pipe was disconnected from the turbine housing, the engine wouldn't run?
Gary

[lagos]

So even if the AFM was still plugged in and only the pipe was disconnected from the turbine housing, the engine wouldn't run? 
Gary
[right][snapback]344821[/snapback][/right]

yep. all that stuff needs to be air tight or it will just die out as soon as you try to start it.

[GT4WRC]

Glad I have a MAP sensor then

As previously said then, try spinning the compressor wheel and check for movement etc.
Gary

[Driveby]

You need to find out exactly why the old turbo died before fitting a new one or it may all end in tears.

[presure2]

yea, sounds like you snaped the shaft.
not good.
could be a few diffrent things IMO you running 9lbs with no intercooler prolly had somthing to do with it,...but more than likely it was somthing else.
do the blades on the compressor wheel look deformed or chipped?

[mark_426]

Anyway, my turbo currently will work about 10* back and forth from its current location, and then it feels like it hits an obstruction. It turns freely for the few degrees it does turn, but will turn no further.
[right][snapback]344717[/snapback][/right]

edit, this is from either side

[Consynx]

if either side will only more 10* definately do not drive it...
air will only be able to work around the blades, and you go nowhere. same on the exhaust side, it will cause a pressure on the exhaust side, and try forcing that air back into the cylinder, which without enough air will be more gas, and boom.

[zipstrips]

i put $$ on the shaft snapped from lack of a BOV. thoes blades are spinning at some 100,000rpms+? and once u boost and let off, the throttle plate shuts, and your 9psi went straight back to where it can from, instantly that 9psi took the wheel from forward to reverse and that should explain to you why it no longer spins freely..

lack of an intercooler @ 9psi is BAD, but i personally dont have a big problem with boost and no intercooler... 9is too high for no IC thou. at worst no IC would send EGT's really high, cause denation, burn pistons/rings, damage headgasket... did u look at the turbine wheel (exhaust wheel in turbo) that might have snapped/cracked, lost some blades?

find a new used rebuilt turbo and get someone who knows what there doing. im somewhat local and willing to give u a hand. if u can get it up will get some piping and we can get that FMIC setup in no time.

[mark_426]

THe BOV has never been removed from the car. When it was not working correctly, it vented TOO easily.

The turbine wheel, and compressor wheel, are both fine.

As far as what steve said, is there any way to open the wastegate to make it driveable for a few days? I could also make a temporary intake bypassing the turbo housing, if that'd be better.

Right now, I'm talking to a guy in KY at autolab performance, who has a turbo to sell, and the price seems decent. I can have that by hopefully next week.

[zipstrips]

mark, u cannot bybass the turbo and drive it around. it will cause a larger headach. go get a $200 beater car for the week and dump it after u get this fixed.

the motor is made for boost. the exhaust is still doign to spin or try to spin or w/e to your trubo and w/o the back pressure of the intake piping it will cause it to boost to who knows what and its going to be destroyed even more. jsut park it. nothing u can do. liek this kid on the eclipse form i know, wanted to break in the newly build motor but w/o boost so he but a cap on the turbo outlet... gee that built pressure and it had no where to go.. tore the wheels right on the unit...

[Rjb23]

Hey mark are you talking to Billy? I just dropped my car off there to get my rear mount made, and my exhaust done.

[mark_426]

Small world, same guy, Billy Roberts.

I already bought and he should've shipped my new turbo by now.

[Rjb23]

Probably did, I live 2 mins from his shop.