V6 swap, for me, better than 3S-GTE, Yep, here we go again Options

[K-ESD]

It can be done, i know that.

I'm currently exploring my options for the possibilty of that swap.

I'm desperate to know more about it. I searched but all i can find is the same darn thing over and over "is it possible yes, blah blah blah". I need more details. I read adrian's posts in celicatech.com but he just wrote a scratch about it. I'm thinking about getting a 3MZ-FE and this is where I get confused.

From what I understand the 3MZ is a bored out 1MZ with vvti slapped on, this would mean that it would be possible to stuff a 230hp/242trq N/A engine with a 5spd (from the camry). Yumm !! But really, how does it compare to the 1MZ-FE on the outside. The 1MZ swap has been done on a 5th gen, as far as i know dimensions are identical (or very close) to the 6th gen. I know this will require alot of custom work that exceeds my knowlege/experience with car mecanics but i will seek help from my local gear heads to get this done. Right now i just have to know what goes and what doesn't as far as major components go (engine, tranny, etc...).

I'm really concidering this swap because a few things in my drivetrain are going.... concidering that my 5S-FE has 265k+ kms and i beat the shnit out of it everyday*. (what's the point of owning a sports car if ur gonna drive like a grandma). Something is going to break and I don't want to invest into what I already have, if i'm going to drop some money into my celica, i want something out of it.

Thanks in advance for your help

(p.s. found a 99' 1MZ-FE at a junk yard close to here for $900 cnd)

[Kwanza26]

I'll say the MZ series engines are basically bigger econo motors. Sure they have more power/torque... but still not a fun sporty type feel you can get from a 3SGTE. I dunno... might just be me... but I don't like to have a "swapped" engine run out of breath on me before 7000 rpms...

[Supersprynt]

But Kwanza, he already said it was better than 3sgte...

[K-ESD]

I'll say the MZ series engines are basically bigger econo motors. Sure they have more power/torque... but still not a fun sporty type feel you can get from a 3SGTE. I dunno... might just be me... but I don't like to have a "swapped" engine run out of breath on me before 7000 rpms...

I certainly won't argue with you, i "want" a 3S-GTE more than a 1MZ but i just don't have the cash to own one. The MZ is my best bang for the buck and the most redundant choice. The V6 gets good gas mileage on regular gas which is big thing for me, i drive aprox 40km to college (note that i'm a student with a student budget ) and back everyday. Believe me, i thought about this for a long time, it all came down to what is best for me.

EDIT: gas mileage is not the only factor, reliability, cost, parts availablility/proxymity - plus having the only (or first) V6 6th gen would make me feel all warm and tingly inside

This post has been edited by K-ESD: Jan 18, 2006 - 8:37 PM

[Supersprynt]

IMO the only thing you got going for this swap is that its unique. Gas mileage is no better than a 3s, reliability is no better because its still a swap. Cost, well first how do you know what parts you need? How do you even know what your doing? Buying just an engine, well I find that highly unwise especially with a swap that either very few have done, or never done. Your going down a dark road without a flashlight and a map.

[yungazzdriver]

yeah i mean if u wanna get the mz then go for it man no one else has done it...............its DIFFERENT! ...............get that feeling to say i did it first!!!

[Clipsetuner]

Well someone fineally brought this up, I plan on doing the 1mz swap before summer comes. Some things you will want to know, 3 out of the 4 motor mounts bolt up, a custom one has to be made for the 4th, I personaly am gonna have one CNC'd and mabey mass produce it. Other problems.... what tranny do you plan on using, shifter linkege, and wiring is where I have found most of the pain, Considering your a 94 OBD1, if you want something 96+ motor gotta do the convert one way or the other. If you plan on using a Solara setup, good luck try'n to find a motor with a manual tranny is a nightmare well at least on the west coast. Ill go into some more stuff later, I gotta get ready for work.

DTE

[Dr_Tweak]

I'm doing this swap this summer. After that, I'll be of more help, but for now a lot of it is unknown.

-Doc

[BBoYRuGGeD]

I'm doing this swap this summer. After that, I'll be of more help, but for now a lot of it is unknown.

-Doc

on a 6th gen celi?

bboy

[Hanyo]

I'm doing this swap this summer. After that, I'll be of more help, but for now a lot of it is unknown.

-Doc

keep me posted!

[lagos]

yeah i mean if u wanna get the mz then go for it man no one else has done it...............its DIFFERENT! ...............get that feeling to say i did it first!!!

that feeling of being different and being the 1st to do something, quickly wears off when your standing over your car, scratching your head thinking, "how the hell do i finish this.... ive got no one to ask for help" .

if your going to attempt to do something thats never been done before, make sure you have a few of the common swaps under your belt so that youll know what you are doing.

[Kwanza26]

that feeling of being different and being the 1st to do something, quickly wears off when your standing over your car, scratching your head thinking, "how the hell do i finish this.... ive got no one to ask for help" .

if your going to attempt to do something thats never been done before, make sure you have a few of the common swaps under your belt so that youll know what you are doing.

Unfortunately people don't think like that. Most people who want to be "different" are actually very uncapable of doing anything by themselves... otherwise they'd know better.

[Blakout16]

i think tweak will be able to do it, clipsetuner has a possibility... the guy who posted it needs to just get some general knowledge and hands on experience to even concider this kind of swap

[K-ESD]

btw i am not the one that is going to do this swap
i talked to a few local gear heads that have many swaps under their belt, they are the one thats going to do this and i'll assist and learn as i go. I am the one that should provide them with critical details to make things easier for them. but....

no on has really responded to what i was asking (excluding Clipsetuner, thanks bud)

i don't want to know if/who/weither/choice. I need to know about the 3MZ and it's similarities with the 1MZ and most importantly the problems that i will encounter or might encounter, like hood clearance for example.

We should be talking about engines and trannys and electrical and mounts and axles and fuel systems, dimensions, etc.... Please, i don't want this thread to turn into the crap i found searching about it.

Thanks

p.s. no offense to anyone here but stop treating me like a damn n00b and READ the first post, i already mentioned that i wasn't going to do this alone.

[presure2]

its not a matter of if, its definetly doable, one of the 5th gen guys over on celicatech did it, in california no less.
its becoming a popular swap for the mkII mr2 guys, also. (you can read a bunch about it over on mr2oc in the MKII JDM/hybrid forum
the only flaw i see is that your seemed to be concerned about budget, and thats NOT somthing you wanna have a problem with in a custom setup like what your going after.
good luck!

[Clipsetuner]

Allright I will state from the start I am NO expert on this and dont take my word as law. I was gonna start emailing tweak about this here pretty quick along with other people, but lets just get the biggest Info thread going.

1MZ vs. 3MZ: I dont really know much about the 3MZ sep VVTi and a few other things, I personaly never considered it because it is out of my budget.

1MZ breakdown: I chose it because they are cheap, reliable, and parts are very easy to come by.

Motor Mounts: I have a buddy who did this on his MR2 he was able to use 3 of the stock 5s mounts and had to custom fab the 4th I will try and get pics, I hold this to be true for the celica swap as well.

Transmissions: 3sge, 5sfe, turbo mr2, solara I am pretty sure the Solara is the only one that I believe that requires a ST205 rear mount.... I am gonna run 5s.

Wiring: From the information I have collected so far on this, its gonna be a pain in the arse. Idealy a complete solara setup would be nice but this isnt a perfect world. I need todo some more information here but all West Coast solara's are automatics, and I believe most if not all Camry's were too. If this being the case you would need to track down a East coast solara wiring harness and ECU and it should be easyer... That being said those are expensive and hard to come by, I am very interested in knowing if a Automatic ECU can be tricked into a manual setup and if so how? Once I get more of these questions figured out I plan on combining my 2 harness together then sorting out what is not needed.

Fuel system: I plan on just adding a Supra TT pump

Hood clearence: without it ever being done its a hard call, I believe it shall fit, stock hood would not clear the TRD supercharger tho.

My thoughts on this swap from when I decided to ditch the 3sgte project for now anyways, was a decently quick DD and reliabality. I am shoting for about 200whp in the end. 1 thing you have to consider tho is that this is a Aluminum block vs. the steel block of the 3sgte, this v6 boosted with the TRD supercharger will never see the likes of over 250whp, its basicly the same concept of the 7afe where it doesnt get that much over stock. I plan on later down the road turbo charging it but not much boost just to see what it can do but that would probley be 07 at least. I know about 2 months ago when my 7a decided to start buring oil like a mofo it was either ST205 it or v6 and at this point the v6 suits my needs.

Thoughts comments anything really, I really want to get tweaks insite.

DTE

[Einhander]

Just so you know, When all is said and done, You'll have just as much invested in a 1m swap as you would a 3s. I paid 1300 for my 99 1m in august of 04, By the time you include the already mention custom mount, wiring, and labor if your not doing it yourself, you'll be in the same ball park as a 3s swap.

I will agree however it is a echo motor, But quite a few have made upwards of 320+hp on boost with tunning. There are even a few camrys with 400+ hp, with only internal mods being pistons, I don't see needing more than that on a fwd.

[Clipsetuner]

Its not that im looking to save money, you cant do that with any setup weither it be 5sfte to a 3sgte to a 1mz, its just not gonna happen once you decide todo a swap and invest time in money, you will never see that money again. The 1mz for me is a strong reliable daily driver motor, if it wasnt they wouldent have put it in the camry's forever. The 3sgte however is in the AWD platforms/RWD platforms and it does amazing there however many 3sgte'd swap people complain of traction issues running a FWD setup, I dont doubt there will be some with the added torque of the 1mz but its coming from a FWD to a FWD so I think/hope its easyer to control, the 1 3sgte swapped car I got to drive (thanks Doge) had insane amount of torque steer and was quick not fast.

When you compare the ST185 200hp to the 1mz's 190hp ratings it is only a 10hp difference but you also get a ton more torque, Einhander if you have links to some of these high horsepower 1mz's I would be very interested to read, I havent read anything positive about the 1mz past 250hp.

For my swap which I might recomend is just buy'n a donor car, that is my plan, pull the motor rebuild it, and peice it all together and see what I get.

DTE

This post has been edited by Clipsetuner: Jan 19, 2006 - 8:36 AM

[Einhander]

The pricing thing was directed toward the original poster, Just so ya know. If your doing this swap yourself you can come out a little cheaper, Hopefully atleast.

www.mr2oc.com in the stickys for the v6 forums. If you can wait a few i can post them here.


One of the guys i was referring to posted numbers here, http://www.solaraguy.org/viewtopic.php?t=22776 i can't find any of the other specifc cars right now, But will later.

His set up as stated in the thread. Notice the first is through a auto.

"99 Solara v6 auto
s/c at 12.5 psi, 75 shot, all the bolt ons
320hp 320tq at the wheels

00 camry v6 5 speed
s/c at 7psi, some bolt ons
274hp 282tq to the wheels

97 camry v6 auto
s/c at 7psi, some bolt ons
233hp 236tq to the wheels"

This post has been edited by Einhander: Jan 19, 2006 - 8:56 AM

[Clipsetuner]

I think with his limited hands on experiance his cost will far exceed a 3sgte swap, but thats me talking, I am not a certified anything and am a weekend warrior. Once this swap can be done a few times I believe it will become fesiable swap then the 3sgte, and in far favor because local parts that are cheap. Like I said in my first post if me, tweak, or K-ESD can get that motor mount fabbed I can get CNC'd copy's made, and I had planed on having all mine made as well. I personaly think its a great alternative to the 3sgte as far as power goes, also being the 1mz is a lighter motor then the 3sgte as well.

DTE

[Einhander]

It'll be done eventually. I personally would atleast have the motor in the car by now if i still had a full garage, Fabrication is not a problem, it's the wiring that will slow me down.

I am also looking at other swaps that the 1m will open up, Consider the 2a*i believe* from the tc shouldn't be a issue and has nice aftermarket support.

[Jeremy1210]

I think its a great idea, and kudos to you folks for trying something new.

One thing though that pisses me off are comments from Kwanza, lagos and super. You know you got a swapped 3s congratufreakinglations to you. Kudos that you did it yourself. Congrats that you have the time, tools, skills, and place to do the swap yourself. Good on you

Now why don't you stop negative jerks about some guys trying to do something new?? Give him some helpful answers or don't say a thing.


Anyway, I for one appreciate your knowledge of cars and swapping a 3s. You all have been helpful to people with their swapped 3s or when swapping thier 3s.

[Dr_Tweak]

Yes, I'm planning on doing one on a 6th gen this summer if all goes well.

Allright I will state from the start I am NO expert on this and dont take my word as law. I was gonna start emailing tweak about this here pretty quick along with other people, but lets just get the biggest Info thread going.

1MZ vs. 3MZ: I dont really know much about the 3MZ sep VVTi and a few other things, I personaly never considered it because it is out of my budget.

1MZ breakdown: I chose it because they are cheap, reliable, and parts are very easy to come by.

Motor Mounts: I have a buddy who did this on his MR2 he was able to use 3 of the stock 5s mounts and had to custom fab the 4th I will try and get pics, I hold this to be true for the celica swap as well.

Transmissions: 3sge, 5sfe, turbo mr2, solara I am pretty sure the Solara is the only one that I believe that requires a ST205 rear mount.... I am gonna run 5s.

Wiring: From the information I have collected so far on this, its gonna be a pain in the arse. Idealy a complete solara setup would be nice but this isnt a perfect world. I need todo some more information here but all West Coast solara's are automatics, and I believe most if not all Camry's were too. If this being the case you would need to track down a East coast solara wiring harness and ECU and it should be easyer... That being said those are expensive and hard to come by, I am very interested in knowing if a Automatic ECU can be tricked into a manual setup and if so how? Once I get more of these questions figured out I plan on combining my 2 harness together then sorting out what is not needed.

Fuel system: I plan on just adding a Supra TT pump

Hood clearence: without it ever being done its a hard call, I believe it shall fit, stock hood would not clear the TRD supercharger tho.

My thoughts on this swap from when I decided to ditch the 3sgte project for now anyways, was a decently quick DD and reliabality. I am shoting for about 200whp in the end. 1 thing you have to consider tho is that this is a Aluminum block vs. the steel block of the 3sgte, this v6 boosted with the TRD supercharger will never see the likes of over 250whp, its basicly the same concept of the 7afe where it doesnt get that much over stock. I plan on later down the road turbo charging it but not much boost just to see what it can do but that would probley be 07 at least. I know about 2 months ago when my 7a decided to start buring oil like a mofo it was either ST205 it or v6 and at this point the v6 suits my needs.

Thoughts comments anything really, I really want to get tweaks insite.

DTE

Motor mounts: remember that if you're using your stock GT tranny, then the three mounts on the tranny will bolt up fine, you just need to make one mount that attaches to the front of the engine.

Tranny: Since plenty of people use the GT tranny with their 3SGTEs, I see no problem to try using it with the V6. Obviously you can also use the E153, in which case it's exactly like installing one with a 3SGTE.

Wiring: Send both harnesses and ECUs to Dr Tweak along with $350, get it back, install, drive. Problem solved.

Here's the thing: there are always little problems that come up, and until someone tries this with a 6th gen we won't know what they are. Personally, I feel that the V6 swap is highly underrated and I plan on making it a commonplace swap if all goes well. I have put the numbers together and I think that the V6 could be installed for at least a thousand less than a 3SGTE, depending on what options are chosen. Not to mention, the V6 is easier to work one for the typical mechanic whereas a lot won't touch a more complex engine like the 3SGTE, they are easy to find parts for, and easy to replace if you blow one up!

-Doc

[Punch]

help on the new swap, dont turn the man away let him do it so the whole 6gc fam can have somthing diffrent to do....
we all can't have a 3s-gte(that's what I'm doing)
I seen a V6 Solara turboed so if we can put that motor in a 6g we can do alot to it ( it's been done more than once)
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/351910/3

[Shigexile]

man, i didn't know that corola's and solora's were making big numbers like these

This post has been edited by Shigexile: Jan 19, 2006 - 11:20 AM

[celi_gt_racer]

This whole concept is completely awesome..... and i too wouldn't mind having one of the first v6 celica's! Someone just needs to get poppin on this idea and keep this thread alive!! Good luck to all - and when get some money saved up ... i'm comin to tweak to hook me up w/ the supercharged v6 swap **evil laugh**
Newayz - keep up the great info and maybe this will be a great alternative swap one day!

[snapshotgt]

Not to mention, the V6 is easier to work one for the typical mechanic whereas a lot won't touch a more complex engine like the 3SGTE, they are easy to find parts for, and easy to replace if you blow one up!

-Doc

...this is a very good point...long term...it looks like the V6 is a better way to go...man tweak, your making me think about this more!!! I'm leaning toward the V6 over 3sgte b/c of tweaks point...lol...well, just will have to think about it more and more!!

later,
snap

p.s. ...i wish this decision was easier...

[Kwanza26]

I think its a great idea, and kudos to you folks for trying something new.

One thing though that pisses me off are comments from Kwanza, lagos and super. You know you got a swapped 3s congratufreakinglations to you. Kudos that you did it yourself. Congrats that you have the time, tools, skills, and place to do the swap yourself. Good on you

Now why don't you stop negative jerks about some guys trying to do something new?? Give him some helpful answers or don't say a thing.

Here's the deal... we're being realistic. If you have no idea what sort of work is needed for a custom swap, let alone an original custom swap... YOU are the ones who *NEED* realistic opinions. Who gives a rats a$$ if it's a cool or original swap? It'll be cool to have an M5 V10 in a Celica... but would it be a practical swap? Umm... no. Would it be an easy swap? Umm... no. Who's gonna help you? Umm... no-one. Get off the "awesome" chair and ask serious questions besides "wouldn't it be cool if..." Maybe you'll get some answers. Ask for opinions... and you get opinions.

[Kwanza26]

i don't want to know if/who/weither/choice. I need to know about the 3MZ and it's similarities with the 1MZ and most importantly the problems that i will encounter or might encounter, like hood clearance for example.

We should be talking about engines and trannys and electrical and mounts and axles and fuel systems, dimensions, etc.... Please, i don't want this thread to turn into the crap i found searching about it.

Thanks

p.s. no offense to anyone here but stop treating me like a damn n00b and READ the first post, i already mentioned that i wasn't going to do this alone.

Not treating you like a noob... but you didn't ask a question...

The 3MZ is an overbored version of the 1MZ. The engines are basically the same thing size-wise. Both the 3MZ and 1MZ are available with VVTi. There are many many versions of the 1MZ which date back all the way to 1992... so be specific on what you want and which engine you'll use. They vary greatly in terms of manifolds, sensors, wiring, power, etc over the years. They bolt up to the same E153 as the 3SGTE, so one would assume they can also bolt up to the S54 trans. The tranny mounts can be the stock ones so long as hood clearence isn't an issue (an NO... no-one can answer that for you right now)... but the motor mounts, possibly exhaust DPs, plumbing, etc will all need to be custom. Wiring is a custom job as mentioned, and arguably the part that stalls an engine swap.

[Kwanza26]

...this is a very good point...long term...it looks like the V6 is a better way to go...man tweak, your making me think about this more!!! I'm leaning toward the V6 over 3sgte b/c of tweaks point...lol...well, just will have to think about it more and more!!

This whole concept is completely awesome..... and i too wouldn't mind having one of the first v6 celica's! Someone just needs to get poppin on this idea and keep this thread alive!! Good luck to all - and when get some money saved up ... i'm comin to tweak to hook me up w/ the supercharged v6 swap **evil laugh**
Newayz - keep up the great info and maybe this will be a great alternative swap one day! smile.gif

These types of responses are why (although I don't want to speak for anyone else) I don't sugar coat things. Sorry for the guys that are being singled out... but really... I don't think you guys need anything extra to fantasize about. Know what it takes to do a swap before you go off dreaming about one. Unless of course you have enough money to pay others to do it for you... and in that case... I recant. =]

I do agree with Tweak to some degree (except on the ease of parts)... that an MZ swap can be made much more reliable and streetable than a 3SGTE... however, that's simply the nature of a normal street engine versus a force fed sport engine.

[K-ESD]

Thank you very much for the response (most of ya )
Specialy Clipsetuner and Doc - I'm printing all that info out, it's what I need thanks again

aside from your constructive critisim (meaning it has been worth something) Kwanza26, thank you for the info on the 3MZ, this is what i was looking for.

as far as $$ go, no one will prove me that a 3S-GTE will cost me less. I have crunched the numbers with the highest cost expectation for the swap and still, the V6 beats the 3S-GTE by a large margin, concidering getting one and upkeeping it. (supreme costs more than regular btw ) I can find most of the parts localy and thats a big factor for me.

[snapshotgt]

snapshotgt:

...this is a very good point...long term...it looks like the V6 is a better way to go...man tweak, your making me think about this more!!! I'm leaning toward the V6 over 3sgte b/c of tweaks point...lol...well, just will have to think about it more and more!!

Kwanaza:

These types of responses are why (although I don't want to speak for anyone else) I don't sugar coat things. Sorry for the guys that are being singled out... but really... I don't think you guys need anything extra to fantasize about. Know what it takes to do a swap before you go off dreaming about one. Unless of course you have enough money to pay others to do it for you... and in that case... I recant. =]

Responce from me:

Well Kwanza, i don't know why you "singled" me out...i was just commenting on what the doc said...b/c i will be swaping soon (note: i'm not "dreaming about one")...and yes, i will be having the doc do the swap, so you can "recant".

~snapshotgt

p.s. sorry, i did something funny with the reply/quote thing...made my own ^^ lol.

This post has been edited by snapshotgt: Jan 19, 2006 - 3:17 PM

[K-ESD]

as for the labour, my "team", as i would like to call it , consists of relatives, friends, and local car enthusiats that are willing to help me out with this one. I will pay for their work, just not at the price of a swap shop. I don't doubt their skill either, most of them have done swaps and custom fabrication. Altho it worries me a little that it's something they have never done, i have confidence in them and myself.

I will be getting my hands dirty, i'm not gonna stand there and watch. I am learning and whatever i don't do, i will make sure i know what has been done and how it was done. As for electrical, this is where I shine, i'm a electrical engineer student and i'm just dying to get my hands on that big pile of wires called "the harness". If I can't do it, Doc is gonna get mail

i could go on about this but it's really not important to this thread so....

anyone else want to chip in their knowlege relating to the v6 (1MZ or 3MZ) swaps?

Thanks

[K-ESD]

hood clearance is gonna be an issue... unless there is more vertical room in the 6th than the 5th gen... ugly bulge until i can afford a gt-four front end conversion

[K-ESD]

Sorry for the consecutive posts

i picked this out of celicatech.com

link: Celicatech

Yup, runs like a champ. I suggest signing up for an account over at mr2oc.com and reading their V6 forum extensively. If you have any specific questions after doing that, feel free to contact me.

I've got a 1997 Toyota Avalon V6 engine, the 1MZ-FE. It's mated to a 5spd from a 1999 Toyota Camry Solara V6. I wanted to maintain the manual shifting I had before, but was hasty and purchased an engine from an autotranny car. So I had to do some minor extra wiring and had to purchase a manual tranny ECU to plug into my 1997 harness.

You can usually find a complete engine, with ECU and harness, for about $1000. I suggest you spend the extra dough and find a complete package with a 5spd already attached. This means your options are reduced to the Camry V6 and Camry Solara V6 but you won’t have to source things like a clutch, flywheel, ECU, etc. The 1MZ also came in the Sienna, ES300, and RX300.

You will need to make some custom engine mounts, but the engine does fit into the engine bay. You will need to convert the stock fuel rail on the V6 to a return system. You will need to run custom coolant lines. Axles will bolt up with the right combination of parts (MR2 inner bolted to Alltrac outer). The rear header needs to be modified to clear the steering rack.

If I remember correctly, including a custom headerback exhaust, it came to about $4k. If you are smart about your purchasing, and also do the work yourself, I don’t see why it can’t be done for under $3k.

For that, I get a car that runs solid 14s in the quarter mile, is fun and easy to drive on the street, gets over 30mpg on the highway, and passes smog.

If you wanted to go overboard, you could also fit the TRD supercharger and add another 50hp, though I don’t know how well the supercharger will fit into the Celica engine bay.

[lagos]

as for the labour, my "team", as i would like to call it , consists of relatives, friends, and local car enthusiats that are willing to help me out with this one. I will pay for their work, just not at the price of a swap shop. I don't doubt their skill either, most of them have done swaps and custom fabrication. Altho it worries me a little that it's something they have never done, i have confidence in them and myself.

I will be getting my hands dirty, i'm not gonna stand there and watch. I am learning and whatever i don't do, i will make sure i know what has been done and how it was done. As for electrical, this is where I shine, i'm a electrical engineer student and i'm just dying to get my hands on that big pile of wires called "the harness". If I can't do it, Doc is gonna get mail

i could go on about this but it's really not important to this thread so....

anyone else want to chip in their knowlege relating to the v6 (1MZ or 3MZ) swaps?

Thanks

there are 2 major problem that i see with your thinking. 1 is cost. you never know how much something is going to cost, untill its all said and done. the funny thing with car is, that you can do all the planning in the world, and still have unexpected things that happen, that change your budget in a drastic way.

2nd problem i see, is that you are depending on your friends to do this for you. i was thinking the same thing when i did my swap. i talked to a bunch of guys that i know that do all kinds of crazy work on their 11sec, rollcaged DSMs. they all told me the same thing, "hell yeah, bro... we will pop that motor in for you in a weekend! it will be awesome! " . then when the clip go to my garage, i called all of them back and they were nowhere to be found. so, one lesson youll quickly learn (like i did), is that this is YOUR SWAP, your car, and your money. if a few of your buddies come over for the weekend to give you hand, than thats awesome, but it will be you laying under the car, all alone at night, trying to figure out how to finish it. your buddys will head out the door quick when the going gets tough, because its not their car, and not their problem.

------

as for reliability.... its foolish for anyone one to expect any motor swap, na, trubo, or v6, to be 110% realible. you are using a motor that came ouf of a car that no one wanted (this goes for the 3sgte as well) you dont know how it was treated, when the oil was changed, or if its blown when you get it. just keep that in mind and know that you will be poping the hood a lot more often then you ever had to do with your stock motor.

------

as for the people who think that some of us are bashing you. we are just trying to help you. we know what its really like to do a swap. you always hear people say " oh that one is easy, you just pop that motor in and its done", but thats just hype talk. the reality is that any sawp is a ton of work and a lot of stress.

This post has been edited by lagos: Jan 19, 2006 - 4:03 PM

[K-ESD]

it's very true i depend on many in order to accomplish this but i have very good bonds with these people, we always helped each other with whatever in the past. Those people don't say "pop the engin' ina weekend yo", most of them are my relatives and they are decent trusting people, but i do see your point. It's my car, my project, my responsibility regardless what happens.

I certainly don't expect this to be easy, this is the purpose of this discussion, to make it possible. Everything always goes wrong, i know that. I have spent full days, head up side down doing wiring on my car, same goes when i changed my struts, it's that one rusty bolt that f-ed up everything. Note that i did that myself and i didn't have clue how to do it, same when i changed my alternator and when i took the whole front end appart to run some wires. I learn as i go. It's part of the hobby.


as for reliability
after 269000+ kms things start to break, i can't see a swapped engine being much worst. Of course there's always the possibility of getting a bad engine, thats annother point towards the MZ, you can get it localy and often can be seen running. If not, you can always go break the junker's knees if he rips you off.

It's a good thing to list the pros and cons, can never be too prepared

[Kwanza26]

The only thing a man can rely on is what he can and cannot do.

[K-ESD]

right

i'm still going to attempt it even if i have to do the whole darn thing myself

[lagos]

right

i'm still going to attempt it even if i have to do the whole darn thing myself

well at least you are tinking on the right track now. good luck

[K-ESD]

at least i always have you guys to help me figure some stuff out so in the worst case i wouldn't be entirely alone

This post has been edited by K-ESD: Jan 19, 2006 - 5:08 PM

[lagos]

at least i always have you guys to help me figure some stuff out so in the worst case i wouldn't be entirely alone

who? the guys who are cheering you on... most of them have never done any major car work. as for the rest of us, we have never put that motor into a car, we wont be able to really help you, youll be on your own... thats what me, kwanza,etc have been trying to say this whole time. thats the price you pay for being the 1st to do something

[K-ESD]

sorry for being french, i have a hard time to express myself correctly

i meant you guys would be willing to help me figure out a solution to a problem, i didn't necessarly mean you guys would tell me how to do it. you know, give me advice, suggestions etc.... support is what i'm talking about !!

blah, i'm confusing myself with my own words

[celi_gt_racer]

If this swap does become more practical and i still think it's a good idea - when i gather the funds - i would be paying someone to do the swap for me. I have neither the time nor the patience (although i have the majority of the knowledge) to so the swap on my own - Hence the reason i said IN MY POST that i would be taking it to the dr. , go ahead and "recant" - find someone else to call a daydreamer

[Hanyo]

i think its good to through some negative opinons in this thread, not only to discourage the weak hearted; but to help brain storm problematic areas with this motor swap.

how heavy is the v6 engine in comparison to the 5afe? Wont the gt tranny gearing waste the low end torque of the v6?

[Clipsetuner]

12 hours later and all this pops up, I dont think much else needs to be said here unless its about v6 componets, all this bashing is non-sense, the few people that know about this swap need to speak about it.

I am pretty sure me and tweak have listed just about everything that needs to be said for the most part anyways, any other imput is awsome tho.

As long as you have friends or people with some knowledge to help you, I think you will be fine, I have only done a handfull of swaps and I believe tweak is probley the best for the job, but hence him being 2000 miles away we cant work together. Thanks for all the extra info tweak, and a good business transaction. hopefully we can get our v6's running about the same time, even tho I'd like to lay claim to fame to be the first but we'll see.

DTE

[K-ESD]

this thread is just the begining

i've copied all the info given here and i will continue to gather as much as i can and share it in a upcoming thread. Of course i will certainly credit who i got that information from

thanks DTE and DOC, you guys ROCK !!!

[Clipsetuner]

So I gathered more info today for the mass's. the 1mz is gonna be by far the easyer swap. The wiring wont be to bad as how I look at it but there is one problem the factory tach wont read right no matter what creative wiring you do, unless you get the dash harness from your donor car, so all us v6 guys gonna look foward to aftermarket tachs. Another thing which doesnt reguard you too much but for the 96+ guys we are gonna want a 96-00 motor/wiring harness/ECU only, if 2001 they did some big changes to the OBD system as long with the harness so I wouldent try and mix and match anything. stay'n with the 96-00 OBD2 setup we shall breeze threw emissions, I am unsure about the inspection states tho.

If tweak or I get that last motor mount made, Ill get copy's made soon as possible, and have em out to all who want to attemp this swap.

I think personaly this swap is gonna be the cheap alternative to the 3sgte in the short run, if your looking for over 300whp good luck, but for the reliable DD that makes 200hp this should be fun for the rest of us, anything else comes up let me know. I was gonna keep mine on the low down untill the summer meet but o well.

DTE

[lagos]

how much does this motor make at the wheels and at the crank in stock trim?

[Dr_Tweak]

how much does this motor make at the wheels and at the crank in stock trim?

Not sure on the wheels, but at the crank it's between 190 and 210 I think, depending on which version you get.

Like clipsetuner said, there isn't much else that can be added to the debate until one of us does it and can say for sure one way or the other.

-Doc