7th gen motor in a 6th Gen? Options

[VancouverChik94]

Is it possible to put a 7th gen GTS motor ( 180HP VVTL-i) into a 6th Gen GTS ?

[Kwanza26]

All those who said the 2ZZ is a bad idea are only haters... The 2ZZGE is a true sports engine and will make an excellent swap candidate. It's a matter of figuring out a custom swap.

[macavely]

the 3s is the easier thing to do since there is no more guessing in that swap everthing has pretty much been covered... IMO you can't go wrong with either swap ...

[playr158]

Tweak brother where you at

96 ST to a 2002 2zzge tell me how much

[purplegt4]

yea 2zz-ge is even in a lotus elise.

some yahama made specs here

[macavely]

the lotus version of this engine is simply a work of art to me...

[Dr_Tweak]

Hmmm, don't know how I missed this one. I usually scan the threads and look for swap related ones, but I skipped right over this I guess.

The 2ZZGE is a totally doable swap, especially in the Celica. The upsides of the swap are:

It's a legal swap (federal law states you may not swap an engine into a car that is newer than the engine you're swapping in, which is the case with 3SGTE swaps 90% of the time. Exceptions are the BEAMS and the 3rd Gen 3SGTE, depending on what year your Celica is. That's right, almost EVERY 3SGTE swapper on this site is in violation of Federal law. (Thankfully, no one really enforces this law except for in the state of California.) Let me take this moment to say that any such swaps performed at Phoenix Tuning are for off-road use only. *cough*)

It's a USDM engine, which means easy-to-find parts (not really a big issue with the 3SGTE, but still something to think about, and if you're thinking about swapping a 4AGE silvertop or blacktop, IS something to consider).

It's a very new engine, whereas 2nd Gen 3SGTEs are getting to be at LEAST 10 years old.

The downsides are:

The engine is VERY expenive, often more than a 2nd gen 3SGTE

Less potential: while the 3SGTE can easily be upgraded, the 2ZZGE (much like the Ford SHO engine, which was also built by Yamaha) is so well built and so highly tuned from the factory, there is little you can do to make more power. You can't raise the compression much (it's already at 11.5:1), cams aren't any use (already has VVTL-i), can't have a header made (comes with a true equal-length header stock), etc. Short of a full low-compression rebuild and f/i, you can get a few more ponies out of it with a Power FC, intake/exhaust, and lightweight flywheel.

Reliability: Some questions have been raised about how reliable the 2ZZGE engine is, it's a little more fragile when compared with engines like the 4AGE and 3SGTE. On that note, it's also quite a bit lighter (alloy block).

That said, here's how to swap it. It's actually quite easy. You basically have two options:

1. Use a stock 7AFE tranny: with this setup you can use three of the four stock engine mounts, and most likely, the 4th one was well. You use stock 7A axles, but then you don't get the 6-speed tranny. To do this the bellhousing on the 7A tranny must be replaced with a 1ZZFE or 2ZZGE unit (or, just use a complete 1ZZFE tranny which will swap right in).

2. Use the GTS 6-speed tranny. This would require custom mounts (maybe) on the tranny mount locations, and possibly custom axles. However, I've heard that the S54 (5SFE Celica GT) inner splines fit into the GTS tranny (C60), if that's the case then the S54 axles MIGHT fit right in. This is speculation at this point. Otherwise, custom axle bars run about $300. Also, you would need a shifter assembly from a 7th gen GTS and probably a custom bracket to hold it. I don't know about the cables.

Either way, you would need a customized exhaust hookup, which MAY require modifying the 2ZZGE header, custom intake, and of course the p/s, a/c, coolant, and other plumbing.

Wiring is slightly harder than a 3SGTE swap, and will be a little easier to wire into a '96 and newer (OBDII) Celica. Did I mention this will pass OBDII scans?

Total cost on this swap at my shop would be $1000 for labor. I'd estimate about $2500-$3500 for parts, putting it close to 3SGTE range depending on if you have an ST or a GT, and how lucky you are sourcing parts.

A note about F/I. From what I understand, there is a supercharger kit that is/will be available for the Lotus, and there is at least one turbo kit out for the 2ZZGE. With that information we can deduce that a carefully designed and well-built turbo system could be installed on an otherwise stock 2ZZGE with good results. Since 91 octane is already required for the 2ZZGE, I'd expect that 93 octane would be a must. It would produce about 250hp at the crank. With a complete rebuild using forged rods and low-compression pistons, I see no reason why this engine couldn't push 15 psi and make... a lot of power. Think $$$

I suspect that a stock 2ZZGE swapped Celica would be just as fast as a stock 3SGTE swapped Celica. As soon as modification begins, the 3SGTE would leave it behind. Remember this point: the 3SGTE is THE BEST Toyota 4-cylinder engine that you can use, and possibly, the best 4-cylinder engine of any manufacturer PERIOD. (Competitors are the SR20DET, 4G63T, EJ20 and EJ25)) If you want BIG power, you just can't beat it. If you're going to swap an engine in and you plan on keeping it stock, you want an n/a engine, you want something newer, something that will pass OBDII, just be unique, etc, then the 2ZZGE is a DEFINITE option to consider.

-Doc



This post has been edited by Dr_Tweak: Feb 6, 2006 - 5:14 AM

[CelicaZR]

Very good info there Doc.
Question: $2500-3500 does this include the engine block, tranny etc?
I guess not, but want to make sure.

[Dr_Tweak]

Oh yes, that's everything. Actually, if you did it the "easy way" using the 7AFE tranny, it could be done for under $3000 INCLUDING labor, IF you could get the engine set cheap enough. There's a salvage yard down in NH that sells engines for $300... it'd be hard to get a Celica GTS engine for that price, but if you look long and hard enough...

2ZZGE Engine set $600
1ZZFE Tranny $300
Clutch kit $150
Exhaust,intake $450
Misc $500
Labor $1000
Total $3000

I'm just throwing numbers out there, but it's possible. I know a certain someone who bought a complete, wrecked Matrix XRS for $1000

-Doc

This post has been edited by Dr_Tweak: Feb 6, 2006 - 6:33 AM

[BBoYRuGGeD]

and for some reason i just have to believe that someone has either tried this swap or completed it, just not on 6gc.net. it seems that after 6 years of the 7g being out, SOMEBODY out there has had to at least attempt this. or not...

http://www.phoenixtuning.com/toyota/swaps/mantis.html

from what i know 2 people have done this. one is tweak and the other i believe is over-seas. tweak swapped this motor in from a matrix xrs (still a 2zzge) last year into a '98 corolla called hellish mantis with owner jerry. thats why everyone is saying that if anyone can do it...TWEAK can i personally have seen this motor in jerry's corolla and the thing is done up RIGHT! lemme see if i can find pics of jerry's car from when i met him...

here...at the NET meet 6 months before my swap...seeing this car is what made me decide to trust Doc. with my car


beautiful aint it?

i said many times and ill say it again...someone need to do this swap in a 6gc! lol


bboy

This post has been edited by BBoYRuGGeD: Feb 7, 2006 - 12:39 AM

[Kwanza26]

i meant 6g specifically. awesome swap there nonetheless. its obvious tweak knows his stuff, id trust him with my car as well.

by the way, lagos, i respect you, but sometime you and other certain people can get a little attitude. just keep it in check allright we all know your car is the s***. but dont diss on people with bone stock cars. im sure some are broke 16 year olds just full of crap, but some of us just put our money/effort into other areas. unneccessary comment, but it just bugs me sometimes.

No-one cares about how awesome something "could" be in a 6gc. It's not like we don't have imaginations ourselves. Some of us here have attitudes because we've been through it already and there are dreamers (are you one?) who make endless topics and posts listing all of their little wet dreams. it gets boring and old really fast. unneccesary, but it needs to be said.

[Dr_Tweak]

celicaST, you're totally right about this swap probably being done already. What many people don't realize is that the online community of ANY group only represents a VERY minute portion of the group.

In other words, there are hundred of extremely nice, swapped 6th gens out there, maybe some with 2ZZGE swaps, that we don't even know about. Most people don't go online and search out other enthusiests.

And all of you quite arguing, this is supposed to be an INFORMATIVE thread.

-Doc

[Defgeph]

This is another great option. I would love to see it in a 6gc one day.
See it in my rear view

I hope somebody steps up to the challenge. This would be a nice engine over stock.

[Defgeph]

This thread is not going anywhere, everyone has a right to an opinion. Hearing from both sides, will help everyone make a definate choice on what they want.

Just keep it clean fellas.

DEF

[purplegt4]

well now that that's settled...

____________________________________________

IMO its more about driveability & ability to drive.

it's unorthodox for fwd to have that much power because the car will push in the turns. and yes it does come down to the driver @ this point. this is why no fwd car is manufactured with 250+ hp. it's against engineering, impractical, & unwise. Especially for a daily driver. Which is why honda & toyota, two leaders in sport compact cars, have their cars (referring to dc2-5 integra type-R's, zzt23x celica gt-s, and even st202 with a beams 3sge) both high RPM, higher HP units, mounted in FWD cars.

comments about an SRT-4 arise (fwd, turbocharged and intercooled 2.4-liter double overhead camshaft (DOHC) 16-valve 4-cylinder engine produces...230 horsepower and 250 lb-ft of torque. reference) such that it has too much torque/torque steer for a car. That is comparable to a 3s-gte mounted in a GT/ST 6gcelica. for a fwd to have so much tq/hp that means when turning you would have to ease up, or have a lighter foot on the gas or else you're gonna get a new set of tires everytime you change your oil. High horsepower/high torque cars are engineered to be mounted in awd/rwd vehicles. (i.e. ST205 celica gt-four)

Tech Notes from Toysport on 2zz-ge vs 1zz-ge is very interesting because it mentions:

It is very interesting to note the difference between the two engines. The 1ZZFE and 2ZZGE are of the same displacement, but their bore and stroke are different. The 1ZZFE “izzy” with the FE head is the quick response, high torque model- has a longer stroke ratio, to further improve the torque characteristic. The 2ZZGE “duzzy” with the sports type GE head is the high RPM, higher HP unit- with a square bore / stroke ratio. This allows it to rev and deliver power in the higher RPM range.

The driving characteristic of both engines are dramatically evident. In the 2000 Celica, where both engines are offered- the GT with the 1ZZFE is easier and smoother to drive- more responsive. The GTS with the 2ZZGE starts of lazier, and need lots of pedal- but ultimately more HP. Which is a good contrast- drivers now know the trade-off between drivability and horsepower. A lot of people who tested the cars opted for the more responsive GT model, although they were initially looking for power. The power band characteristic of the two engines offer a good choice- chooses which is more important.

This is very similar, when compared to the current argument.

[lagos]

good post man... but just wanted to point out something. im pretty sure that a lot of accura sedans have 200-250 hp in their fwd modles. hondas, celicas, etc... are not produced with that much power, becasue they are ment to be economy cars for daily driving and great gas milage.

also there is something about torque steer that people seem to forget. it dosnt happen when u are daily driving, or even doing a spirited run. its only a problem when you FLOOR the gas in 1st and 2nd gear and as long as you dont punch the gas, its not a big issue in a car thats making 200-250hp fwd. and even when it is a "problem" its the type of thing that is easy to control and kind of takes your breath away (in a good way) as you experience that much power.

i think 200-250 is perfect in a fwd car. ask anyone else who is making the same power (3sgte, 5sfe,etc) and they will prbably agree that it feels just perfect. so much that toyota could have sold the car just like this. i never noiced any negative changes in the way my car handles or drives. its still a celica, except now, when u give it some gas, it dosnt disappoint you like it used to with the stock motor.

i think most of the issues you talk about, start to become a problem at the 300-400 hp level on a fwd car.

This post has been edited by lagos: Feb 7, 2006 - 3:42 AM

[purplegt4]

i think 200-250 is perfect in a fwd car.

...issues you talk about...become a problem at the 300-400 hp level on a fwd car.

agreed & agreed, true & true. because either 3s-ge & 2zz-ge would have that many horsies but not as much torque. it's just how one would drive their car.

so i dunno how an argument could've came up from that.
lol now time for me to start saving my money for something i dont need

[devilsden97]

in a way, the 2zz is like a beams..(powerwise, 180bhp on the 2zz, and 200bhp on the beams) but the 2zz is easier to get a hold of, and parts for it. Idk it looks pretty interesting, and kinda worth doing.

[playr158]

its very worth doing for the pro-n/a moderate power seeking crowd

also for those people who want swaps but emissions and inspections are an issue this provides a legitamate legal swap

[celicaST]

thanks for keeping this thread alive degh, some good info in it. lets just keep it on topic discussing 2zz swap. no more arguing, because we all know what arguing on the internet is like... special olympics anyone?

good post man... but just wanted to point out something. im pretty sure that a lot of accura sedans have 200-250 hp in their fwd modles. hondas, celicas, etc... are not produced with that much power, becasue they are ment to be economy cars for daily driving and great gas milage.

also there is something about torque steer that people seem to forget. it dosnt happen when u are daily driving, or even doing a spirited run. its only a problem when you FLOOR the gas in 1st and 2nd gear and as long as you dont punch the gas, its not a big issue in a car thats making 200-250hp fwd. and even when it is a "problem" its the type of thing that is easy to control and kind of takes your breath away (in a good way) as you experience that much power.

i think 200-250 is perfect in a fwd car. ask anyone else who is making the same power (3sgte, 5sfe,etc) and they will prbably agree that it feels just perfect. so much that toyota could have sold the car just like this. i never noiced any negative changes in the way my car handles or drives. its still a celica, except now, when u give it some gas, it dosnt disappoint you like it used to with the stock motor.

i think most of the issues you talk about, start to become a problem at the 300-400 hp level on a fwd car.

good points. although i would guess most production fwd cars with 200-250 hp arent as light as a 6g. either way i think your right about 200-250 being optimal in fwd setup. i rode in a 5th gen with 3s swap (didnt drive it though) and it did seem controlable for daily driving, but its also had enough power to give you that rush when you want it.

also just out of curiousity, all else being equal, how much lighter would a 2zz swap be (in comparison to 3sgte)? any ballpark ideas?

[playr158]

2ZZ-GE
Displacement (cc) 1795
Bore x Stroke(mm) 82 x 85
Compression 11.5
Valve Train DOHC 4 Chain Driven VVTL-i
Aspiration natural
Cylinder Block Aluminum w/MMC liner
Bore Pitch (mm) 87.5
Bore wall (mm) 5.5
Valve Dia. (mm) Int 34 Exh 29
Max Power 135kw/7600rpm
Max Torque 180Nm/6800rpm
Size (LxWxH)mm 652 x 608 x 659
Dry weight 115kg(253.531602 lbs)


information taken from: http://www.m-msport.com.au/Downloads/2zzGE...e%20weight'

This post has been edited by playr158: Feb 7, 2006 - 12:35 PM

[BBoYRuGGeD]

i saw that same info dan but i cant seem to find the engine weight of the 3sgte anyone know?

anyway 115kg is about 250lbs...im sure the 3sgte is heavier than this because the 2zzge is an all aluminum motor

btw i agree with lagos that 200-250hp in a fwd car feels natural...anything else above just takes a little getting use to but is still pretty easy to daily drive if you have a good enough control of the gas pedal (like i said im basing this statement from driving my friends 300hp srt4).

bboy

[BBoYRuGGeD]

yah the 3sgte is cast iron block....tougher but heavier lol

bboy

[playr158]

A RWD 3SGE complete (no clutch or exhaust manifold, but alternator mounted) was 129.0kg
http://www.club4ag.com/faq%20and%20tech_pa...m%20Crosse.html

[celicaST]

its not a steel block

3sgte is a cast iron block i do believe

but i do believe a better comparison for the 2zz would be a 3sge beams
comparing N/A to F/i is like apples and oranges

yep your right, i believe gray cast iron is typically used for engine blocks. machining steel engine blocks would be hell!

i know, the reason im comparing to 3sgte is because its the most common swap for the 6g.

[BLADDER_MASTER]

I just want to point this out. If you have 6GC GT and want to stick with N/A power. The easiest engine to swap in would be the 3rd gen 3S-GE. It'll be as fast as a 7th gen GT-S.

wow i never knew the 3rd gen 3sge would be a pretty easy swap for a celica GT. i wonder why this is not more common among the GT guys? i know the 3rd gen 3sge doesnt put down as much hp as a beams or 3sgte...but it would still be a great upgrade with good potential and from what u tell me alot easier than the 3sgte/beams. maybe u should write about how ur swap went so more people can see that there are even more and easier options to us 6gc owners.

ok back to topic...2zzge anyone?

bboy

Follow this link, I posted there some of the issues I went through with my swap. Keep in mind that I have a 5GC, so some of the issues I went through, 6GC owners won't have to go through.

http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4292

This post has been edited by BLADDER_MASTER: Feb 7, 2006 - 11:22 PM

[purplegt4]

cool look what else i found
-> Toyota Corolla Compressor
->More Corolla Compressor

This post has been edited by purplegt4: Feb 8, 2006 - 12:52 AM

[purplegt4]

"The torque increase from variable valve timing is approximately 5% below 6000rpm and 2% above 6000rpm. At above 6000rpm, the variable valve lift shows a big torque increase of 22%" refer to the torque curve in figure 10 on page 5.

Development of the High speed 2zz-ge engine

_____________________________________

this document states "Figure 2 shows the Power, weight, and displacement of the engines in the Japanese market. 2zz-ge is among the top of all engines."

so yes ladies, gentleman, dan, this motor is a beast.

[presure2]

ok guys, i just deleted 5 PAGES of junk.

Lets keep this ON TOPIC from here on out.

[playr158]

thank you manny!

i thought i would add in one more rather good piece

http://www.absoluteingenuity.net/matrix/re...erformance'

This post has been edited by playr158: Feb 8, 2006 - 2:32 PM

[Smaay]

wow, i cant believe i never seen this thread before. there is a TON of mis information that Dr. Tweak put here. first off the 1ZZ 5 speed and 2ZZ 6 speed use "almost" the exact same transmission. the only difference is gear ratios and the 6th gear. they use the exact same clutch and engine mounts.

The 7A-FE transmission does use the same exact clutch and pressure plate as the 1ZZ/2ZZ, however the bell housings are different and it wont bolt up directly. That don't mean it cant be alters to fit. but why? use the 6 speed!

no some things to consider, the 2ZZ is backwards from your 7A. this means the intake is on the front and the exhaust is in the back, guess what your steering rack is right in the way of the header. so you will have to alter that alot! then there is the wiring, NIGHTMARE! much easier to do a 3S-GTE or 1MZ. the 2ZZ does not make good torque. you need to spin the engine up over 6000 into "lift" before it makes any power, and the 6th gen celica is much heavier than the 7th. so its going to be slower.

if you really want to do an engine swap, i suggest looking into a V6. they are cheaper than a 3S-GTE, the wiring is the same between the two, installing would be the same since the V6 can use the same trans as the 3S-GTE.