Talk about cheaply turbo-ing a 5sfe, BADDDDDDD Options

[x_itchy_b_x]

at least its a 5th gen owner.

[lagos]

thats not the amazing e-turbo in action, is it ?

[Blakout16]

ur all wrong, its a leaf blower.

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

What the hell is that supposed to be??

[94gts]

And all this time I've been using it to dry my hair, boy am I a moron!

[rjbibeau]

i saw that car on ebay. i almost lmao. if you look he also has a front mount intercooler not even connected to anything haha

[My2Celi]

i need to learn. whats bad about it? do u gain anything?

[Clyde]

lol so whats the point of the thing?

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

i need to learn. whats bad about it? do u gain anything?

It's debateable, but don't try it on this site. It's just like talking about abortion around here. This topic will be locked within a few days.

lol so whats the point of the thing?

It's purpose is to push air into the intake manifold. It's debated if it's forced induction or not. I want to talk about this thing so badly, but I'm doing my best to keep my mouth shut. btw, some purpose built e-turboes are way different than leaf blowers. I suggest everyone do as much research as you can before posting. I've done a good bit of research on it, but I'll hold my veiw for a while.

[SiN_CeLi]

Now all they need is the TORNADO and I say that car will be showing some serious hp gains.

[Blakout16]

doesnt the tornado atomize the air easier or something? i dunno

[lagos]

doesnt the tornado atomize the air easier or something? i dunno

think about it for one second. its a little fan shaped thing... it dosnt do jack.

[Blakout16]

so ur saying the tornado or eturbo cant help me get my groceries faster?

[95CelicaST]

It won't help me pick up the ladies?

[OOBE]

Hahaha you clowns.

[FSX_Celica94GT]

i cant beat them vettes?

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

so ur saying the tornado or eturbo cant help me get my groceries faster?

The tornado won't. I'm serious guys, do little research before you flame. There are differences in quality of any part. Like those crappy ebay coilovers, compared to a set if Teins. It wouldn't be fair to say all coilovers are worthless just because the crappy ebay ones are. Would it?

[celicaST]

so ur saying the tornado or eturbo cant help me get my groceries faster?

The tornado won't. I'm serious guys, do little research before you flame. There are differences in quality of any part. Like those crappy ebay coilovers, compared to a set if Teins. It wouldn't be fair to say all coilovers are worthless just because the crappy ebay ones are. Would it?

i didnt know they made these. i was considering designing something along these lines for my senior project in mechanical engineering. to everybody making fun of this: this actual product might not be very effective, but there is NO reason it couldnt be. technically it could be done, and be just as effective as a traditional turbo. the compressor doesnt care if its driven mechanically(supercharger), exhaust gases(turbo), or an electric motor. not to mention the advantages this would have both installing and controlability. pressure sensors could be fitted to alter electric motor rpm to adjust boost accordingly (no more boost creep/turbo lag), could control desired boost easily and cheaply ( 5psi daily to 10psi runs?, no problem), and it would also be a convenient option to turn on/off. now with a large engine, this would be tougher to do because it would require a powerful (aka big) electric motor and a high discharge alternator to provide any significant boost. but with a 1.8/2.2 liter engine this is very doable, and actually has nothing but advantages compared to traditional supercharger/turbocharger setup. again though, it would need to be properly designed, and since it seems the ones produced are mainly marketed as a cheap alternative, i question there quality. of course with an eturbo providing significant boost, the other necessities would still be needed such as fuel injectors/pump, intercooler, fuel management, etc. the one disadvantage is efficiency (going to be less efficient than turbo, however id bet its similar to supercharger, if not more), but in my opinion the reliability and installation ease more than make up for it.

This post has been edited by celicaST: Feb 9, 2006 - 1:33 PM

[snapshotgt]

this post will end up being locked in a few days

...i have an eTurbo, but i'm not going to comment due to the slack it gets here. I know i'll get "flamed" for having one, but i could care less...so save yourself the embarrassment

~snapshotgt

This post has been edited by snapshotgt: Feb 9, 2006 - 1:38 PM

[presure2]

this post will end up being locked in a few days

...i have an eTurbo, but i'm not going to comment due to the slack it gets here. I know i'll get "flamed" for having one, but i could care less...so save yourself the embarrassment

~snapshotgt

id LOVE to see some dyno sheets before and after from that thing man!!

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

Nice right up CelicaST. With adtvances in electronics, it's very possible. The problems I see is they are marketed as cheap alternitives. To make one work correctly it would have to have a fair amount of RD and money invested. There's so much info out there on superchargers and turboes, that it makes them as easier alternative for most. If the right guy felt like doing a e-turbo, I see no reason it couldn't work just as well. I like to compare it to carbs vs fuel injection. When FI came out, the car guys would switch it to carb right away. Some still do this. It's easier and everyone knew more about working with carbs. Besides that, there weren't many performance upgrades redily avalible for FI. But the problem with that comparision, is that race cars when to FI way before they went to street. And it was known that FI would be better for race cars. No race teams that I know of use e-turboes. This might be because there just hasn't been the desire to look into them yet. I think we'll switch to electric cars before e-turboes are popular. But the fact stands, it is very possible to make one work. Even the ones they sell will do something, just help to equilize pressure. That won't produce much of a gain, but you can't deny it's doing something.

I think this topic will actually stay open awhile. Everyone so far is presenting reasonable arguements and no one has jumped in to simply bash on anyone.

[celicaST]

this post will end up being locked in a few days

...i have an eTurbo, but i'm not going to comment due to the slack it gets here. I know i'll get "flamed" for having one, but i could care less...so save yourself the embarrassment

~snapshotgt

id LOVE to see some dyno sheets before and after from that thing man!!

i would too, go do it snapshot! but i hightly doubt any significant increase because the eturbos ive seen for sale since i just started looking all arent high power enough to provide the air flow needed. however, manny, dont let that make you discount the idea. there is no reason this cant be done, and very effectively.

[jgreening]

I take it the energy used to drive that fan is an electrical source. As such, how much air could possibly be pushed with a 12v fan? The concept is sound (engine management issues aside) but the mechanics given the capability of the components make this something that is not worthwhile.

Notice how I didn't say it was stupid despite my inclination to do so.

[x_itchy_b_x]

im going to say it impossible to even get ANY 12v motor to supply enough air to any combustion motor. no way no how. and lets pretend it does work lol. you still need to upgrade the fuel system and the timing and the sensors. its just not practical. and its only a fan. it can push air yes but it cant Pressurize a chamber.

now maybe a 10hp shop vac fan could do something

[celicaST]

Nice right up CelicaST. With adtvances in electronics, it's very possible. The problems I see is they are marketed as cheap alternitives. To make one work correctly it would have to have a fair amount of RD and money invested. There's so much info out there on superchargers and turboes, that it makes them as easier alternative for most. If the right guy felt like doing a e-turbo, I see no reason it couldn't work just as well. I like to compare it to carbs vs fuel injection. When FI came out, the car guys would switch it to carb right away. Some still do this. It's easier and everyone knew more about working with carbs. Besides that, there weren't many performance upgrades redily avalible for FI. But the problem with that comparision, is that race cars when to FI way before they went to street. And it was known that FI would be better for race cars. No race teams that I know of use e-turboes. This might be because there just hasn't been the desire to look into them yet. I think we'll switch to electric cars before e-turboes are popular. But the fact stands, it is very possible to make one work. Even the ones they sell will do something, just help to equilize pressure. That won't produce much of a gain, but you can't deny it's doing something.

I think this topic will actually stay open awhile. Everyone so far is presenting reasonable arguements and no one has jumped in to simply bash on anyone.

very nice ananogy with carbs v FI. but i disagree with you on one point. we dont need any advances in electronics to make this work. i could and will make one, granted i can get it approved as a senior project, with off the shelf parts. marketing is the only reason this hasnt taken off. its similar to the marketing of ev and hybrid cars. ev and hybrid cars have so much potential in terms of performance over a typical ICE car, but the demand isnt there so people get teh misconception that hybrid/ev technology is slow. similarly the demand for this product is from customers looking for a cheap alternative, and so they make them low power so as too not require intercooler, injectors, etc. again, i would very much like to see a dyno snapshot if you can find the time and place to do it

by the way, a bit off topic, but people doing engine swaps. motor swap>>>engine swap. i guarantee you a siemens 1pv5138-4ws24 electric motor paired with high power inverter and lightweight battery pack could outrun a 3sgte. "max" power 203hp, "max" tourqe 332 ftlb. ill post a new topic on it sometime to explain what goes into an electic swap.

*i missed your point about eturbos not being in race cars. thats simple. FI was implemented over carbs because of efficiency, and it was clearly advantageous to carbs. however, like i said before, an eturbo is NOT going to be as efficient as a turbocharger. energy must be converted from mechanical to electrical in the alternator, 12v dc electric to high voltage ac electric in the inverter, back from electric to mechanical in the motor. the engine is going to work harder to develop the same boost as a typical turbo. i said it might be similar to supercharger because of the friction in a roots blower and the mechanical drivetrain, however im just guessing.

This post has been edited by celicaST: Feb 9, 2006 - 2:54 PM

[celicaST]

im going to say it impossible to even get ANY 12v motor to supply enough air to any combustion motor. no way no how. and lets pretend it does work lol. you still need to upgrade the fuel system and the timing and the sensors. its just not practical. and its only a fan. it can push air yes but it cant Pressurize a chamber.

now maybe a 10hp shop vac fan could do something

im sorry, but you sound ignorant on this. what do you call a turbo compressor? its a fan, a highly specialized fan. its a radial fan as opposed to an axial fan your probably talking about, but still. now your right, a 12v motor isnt going to be powerful enough without very high amperage (but that will cause overheating issues) to supply the air needed, but thats why theres AC inverters and transformers by the way, "it can push air but it cant pressurize a chamber." i would like you to read that again to yourself. if you cut a hole in a box, put a room fan in the hole and turn it on, tada a pressurized chamber, although wouldnt be that much over atmosperic with a low power room fan. guys this is very practical, it just needs to be done correctly.

also, if i do get the chance to build this as a senior project, i would most likely use the compressor housing off of a turbo.

This post has been edited by celicaST: Feb 9, 2006 - 2:36 PM

[jgreening]

although wouldnt be that much over atmosperic with a low power room fan.

Or with a 12v electrical fan either. And pressurizing the positive boost system is what is needed. While I remain extremely sceptical (understatement) I say go for it and post your results.

[celicaST]

although wouldnt be that much over atmosperic with a low power room fan.

Or with a 12v electrical fan either. And pressurizing the positive boost system is what is needed. While I remain extremely sceptical (understatement) I say go for it and post your results.

well im only a freshman, and im not saying theres going to be some issues, but thats what engineering is about . main issue is power, highest amperage alternator ive seen is 300amp. at 12v output thats just around 4.8hp. im not sure whether or not that would be sufficient enough to run the compressor at desired boost. other ideas ive had would be a retro-fit system to install on a car to capture energy lost while braking. well see, its still a ways off. probably end up doing the sae race car or hpv.

This post has been edited by celicaST: Feb 9, 2006 - 3:11 PM

[x_itchy_b_x]

im going to say it impossible to even get ANY 12v motor to supply enough air to any combustion motor. no way no how. and lets pretend it does work lol. you still need to upgrade the fuel system and the timing and the sensors. its just not practical. and its only a fan. it can push air yes but it cant Pressurize a chamber.

now maybe a 10hp shop vac fan could do something

im sorry, but you sound ignorant on this. what do you call a turbo compressor? its a fan, a highly specialized fan. its a radial fan as opposed to an axial fan your probably talking about, but still. now your right, a 12v motor isnt going to be powerful enough without very high amperage (but that will cause overheating issues) to supply the air needed, but thats why theres AC inverters and transformers by the way, "it can push air but it cant pressurize a chamber." i would like you to read that again to yourself. if you cut a hole in a box, put a room fan in the hole and turn it on, tada a pressurized chamber, although wouldnt be that much over atmosperic with a low power room fan. guys this is very practical, it just needs to be done correctly.

also, if i do get the chance to build this as a senior project, i would most likely use the compressor housing off of a turbo.

im not saying electric isnt possible but no 12v fan contraption like this can possibly do anything.
ive seen REAL electric supercharges man. they have them already...... they cost close to 1k and you can only run them for 15 seconds. due to the motors heating up and not having enough current to power them.
and yes they use a compressor. like a pro charger setup just where the pully is they mount a high power motor.

heres the link of a real one http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0406tur_knight/

This post has been edited by x_itchy_b_x: Feb 9, 2006 - 3:23 PM

[celicaST]

im going to say it impossible to even get ANY 12v motor to supply enough air to any combustion motor. no way no how. and lets pretend it does work lol. you still need to upgrade the fuel system and the timing and the sensors. its just not practical. and its only a fan. it can push air yes but it cant Pressurize a chamber.

now maybe a 10hp shop vac fan could do something

im sorry, but you sound ignorant on this. what do you call a turbo compressor? its a fan, a highly specialized fan. its a radial fan as opposed to an axial fan your probably talking about, but still. now your right, a 12v motor isnt going to be powerful enough without very high amperage (but that will cause overheating issues) to supply the air needed, but thats why theres AC inverters and transformers by the way, "it can push air but it cant pressurize a chamber." i would like you to read that again to yourself. if you cut a hole in a box, put a room fan in the hole and turn it on, tada a pressurized chamber, although wouldnt be that much over atmosperic with a low power room fan. guys this is very practical, it just needs to be done correctly.

also, if i do get the chance to build this as a senior project, i would most likely use the compressor housing off of a turbo.

im not saying electric isnt possible but no 12v fan contraption like this can possibly do anything.
ive seen REAL electric supercharges man. they have them already...... they cost close to 1k and you can only run them for 15 seconds. due to the motors heating up and not having enough current to power them.
and yes they use a compressor. like a pro charger setup just where the pully is they mount a high power motor.

heres the link of a real one http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0406tur_knight/

oh i agree with you that the eturbo on that 5g isnt doing much, if anything at all. and i remembr seeing that electric supercharger before, i dont know if a link to thomas knights page is in the article so electric supercharger. this setup is essentially the same thing im talking about except that it is not continuous. he calculated 450cfm at 8psi requires about 18-22hp. ill guestimate a 4-5 hp should be ok providing 3-5 psi on a 1.8engine whose cfm is around 191 cfm at 6000rpm. keep in mind it would provide a higher sustained boost at lower rpms until the compressor could no longer flow that much air.

This post has been edited by celicaST: Feb 9, 2006 - 5:14 PM

[lagos]

im amazed there is even a debate about these things..lol

[celicaST]

im amazed there is even a debate about these things..lol

i dont think we are debating the actual eturbos for sale. im sorry, but whoever buys these is wasting there money. the one i saw for sale advertised 2.2amps. ya thats not even 30 watts, obviously its not going to have anywhere near the power needed to create boost. the product also advertised it can flow 250 cfm. another pointless fact and misleading advertising, even though my 7a only flows 191 cfm at 6000rpm, there is still no way that a 30 watt motor can sustain a significant pressure gradient without it stalling. flowing 250 cfm is pointless at a low pressure gradient, flowing 250cfm at any significant boost level requires significant power. there claims of 10-25hp gains are also laughable. however, like ive said, overall idea is still possible.

This post has been edited by celicaST: Feb 9, 2006 - 5:15 PM

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

im amazed there is even a debate about these things..lol

Me too, but probably for different reasons.

CelicaST, you who I'm talking about when I say, "if the right person decided to make a e-turbo." Have you considered running a separate alternator hooked to its own battery to supply power? If you could get a belt system working with the turning of the fan, you could run multiple electric motors on it. This would probably be more complicated than making a supercharger, but it would prove a point. Any time you have innovations there are always very reputable skeptics. Skeptics are very important to the advancement of science. They make it so we have to prove everything thoroughly. I deal with them on a daily basis. After dealing with them for so long, it's almost irritating to see the things people say with no proof. People can say and believe anything they want, but the only thing that real is things that are proven. Weather its skeptics or researcher. If the skeptics say this is wrong, I challenge them experiment and prove it is false. If nothing else, provide scientific evidence to back up your theory. The science to this is simple. How much air can an electronically driven fan push? If it's more than a car can take in, it will pressurize. The practicality is the only thing in question in my mind. That is what you are for CelicaST. Please prove this one way or the other.

[celicaST]

im amazed there is even a debate about these things..lol

Me too, but probably for different reasons.

CelicaST, you who I'm talking about when I say, "if the right person decided to make a e-turbo." Have you considered running a separate alternator hooked to its own battery to supply power? If you could get a belt system working with the turning of the fan, you could run multiple electric motors on it. This would probably be more complicated than making a supercharger, but it would prove a point. Any time you have innovations there are always very reputable skeptics. Skeptics are very important to the advancement of science. They make it so we have to prove everything thoroughly. I deal with them on a daily basis. After dealing with them for so long, it's almost irritating to see the things people say with no proof. People can say and believe anything they want, but the only thing that real is things that are proven. Weather its skeptics or researcher. If the skeptics say this is wrong, I challenge them experiment and prove it is false. If nothing else, provide scientific evidence to back up your theory. The science to this is simple. How much air can an electronically driven fan push? If it's more than a car can take in, it will pressurize. The practicality is the only thing in question in my mind. That is what you are for CelicaST. Please prove this one way or the other.

well thank you. "Have you considered running a separate alternator hooked to its own battery to supply power? If you could get a belt system working with the turning of the fan, you could run multiple electric motors on it." sorry i dont understand the benefit or what you mean by either of those two ideas and both sound to complicated to the point where it would be more difficult to install than a typical setup. main benefit of such a electronic setup would be installation ease. well when im a senior i hope to, but first i would have to get this project approved by the ME department. sounds like they would since it involves thermodynamics, electronics, fluid dynamics, and pretty much anything else i could think of.

oh and this statement "How much air can an electronically driven fan push? If it's more than a car can take in, it will pressurize." is true, however, it will only produce a pressure gradient that the motor can sustain, aka high pressure gradient=high power. a tiny weak motor might pump a lot of air say in open air but once the outlet pressure rises in relation to the inlet pressure, it becomes harder for that motor to pump air in. IN CONCLUSION, dont buy an eturbo! they are scams and a complete waste of money.

This post has been edited by celicaST: Feb 9, 2006 - 5:08 PM

[FAQdaWorld]

This shouldnt even be debated on any level....

Yes its possible in theory to create boost with an electric motor, but for less cost and a simpler setup you can have a working TURBO that is using waste energy anyway....

[creis]

ok, i'm gana say this only one because i know people are gana say i'm full of it because they just dont know, you would be very suprised how much air that little thing can push, I was, I put one on my car for like a week just to see if it would work and it did give gains. probably 10-15 low end hp.

I know its a very cheap way to gain hp and the only reason i bought and installed one was to see if it worked, but I gata tell its the lowest cost part to give the gains it did, and wile its not upgradable some people just want a little extra power. The drain on my battery was considerable but not enough to where i could not continue use indefinetly. in reallity its just like people who put on a CAI, what all does a CAI do really, just takes in air a little better then a stock intake, does not give respectable gains to a motor, so please keep an open mind when it comes to car mods, and dont think that just because something looks like it cant work does not mean it cant.

as far as dyno results i was going to have it tested but sold the part before I got to.

[jgreening]

I put one on my car for like a week just to see if it would work and it did give gains. probably 10-15 low end hp.

Are you guessing as to these gains or did you attempt to measure them somehow?

[WannabeGT4]

Come on Jay. You know the butt dyno totally pwns the Dynojet.

[lagos]

if it really did add 10-15hp, you would have kept it on the car. only reason people resell stuff like that is because its worthless.

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

creis, I knew your post would look bad. You claimed 10-15hp, and you do the famous, "I never got around to dynoing it" line. I'm open to conversation on these e-turboes, but that just opened up the door for the skeptics to bash. Please edit your topic or something. If you support, that's good, but don't claim without evidence. It actaully makes e-turboes look worse to have claims with no real data.

EDIT: I know you mean well, and so do guys like Jay and Lagos who keep us all in check. I really do appreciate the desire to see prove guys, and thanks for not getting too mean on this thread. Presure2, thanks to you too. I know you guys don't mean to be mean, I know your just trying to help.

This post has been edited by Bigmeanbulldog55: Feb 10, 2006 - 5:45 PM

[celicaST]

ok ive thought about this, and i actually think that a 30watt motor could provide a benefit. not by providing boost (although it will provide a miniscule amount), but by eliminating the vaccuum. ok with my 1.8 liter 7a, it will pump around 191 cfm at 6000rpm as i already calculated. the eturbo i sas for sale advertised 250 cfm, which i assume to be correct at a low pressure gradient. like i said, it will create a pressure gradient because of the excess flow, however it will be very small. as ill say again, 30 watts isnt enough power to create significant boost obviously. what i didnt take into account is that typically the pressure in the intake manifold is about around 1psi or more less than atmospheric due to flow restriction in the intake. so, as long as the motor is powerful enough to flow more air through the filter than the engine requires, it SHOULD result in a slight performance gain.

and FAQ, i have to disagree. if a proper electric setup was mass-produced, it could be cheaper or at least similarly priced (only difference really would be etubo instead of turbo, and a high discharge alternator instead of custom exhaust manifold/downpipe), and it would be a little easier to install (no exhaust modification, oil lines to hookup). yes i know it wont be as thermodynamically efficient as a turbo, but it should be somewhat comparable to a supercharger. main advantages again would be installation, controlability, reliability. remember, the smaller motor the easier this would be. my 1.8 7a with a 300amp alt is still on the lower end of performance (although it would work). and with a 2.2 5s, your looking at an even higher power alt/motor required. time to crack open the books and do some hard calculations

[jgreening]

ok ive thought about this, and i actually think that a 30watt motor could provide a benefit. not by providing boost (although it will provide a miniscule amount), but by eliminating the vaccuum. ok with my 1.8 liter 7a, it will pump around 191 cfm at 6000rpm as i already calculated. the eturbo i sas for sale advertised 250 cfm, which i assume to be correct at a low pressure gradient. like i said, it will create a pressure gradient because of the excess flow, however it will be very small. as ill say again, 30 watts isnt enough power to create significant boost obviously. what i didnt take into account is that typically the pressure in the intake manifold is about around 1psi or more less than atmospheric due to flow restriction in the intake. so, as long as the motor is powerful enough to flow more air through the filter than the engine requires, it SHOULD result in a slight performance gain.

and FAQ, i have to disagree. if a proper electric setup was mass-produced, it could be cheaper or at least similarly priced (only difference really would be etubo instead of turbo, and a high discharge alternator instead of custom exhaust manifold/downpipe), and it would be a little easier to install (no exhaust modification, oil lines to hookup). yes i know it wont be as thermodynamically efficient as a turbo, but it should be somewhat comparable to a supercharger. main advantages again would be installation, controlability, reliability. remember, the smaller motor the easier this would be. my 1.8 7a with a 300amp alt is still on the lower end of performance (although it would work). and with a 2.2 5s, your looking at an even higher power alt/motor required. time to crack open the books and do some hard calculations

Please explain how the reduction of the vacuum reading (to something less than boost) increases performance. I always understood that at vacuum or 0 the combustion chambers are getting the same air and fuel and flow. Are you saying this is incorrect?

[celicaST]

ok ive thought about this, and i actually think that a 30watt motor could provide a benefit. not by providing boost (although it will provide a miniscule amount), but by eliminating the vaccuum. ok with my 1.8 liter 7a, it will pump around 191 cfm at 6000rpm as i already calculated. the eturbo i sas for sale advertised 250 cfm, which i assume to be correct at a low pressure gradient. like i said, it will create a pressure gradient because of the excess flow, however it will be very small. as ill say again, 30 watts isnt enough power to create significant boost obviously. what i didnt take into account is that typically the pressure in the intake manifold is about around 1psi or more less than atmospheric due to flow restriction in the intake. so, as long as the motor is powerful enough to flow more air through the filter than the engine requires, it SHOULD result in a slight performance gain.

and FAQ, i have to disagree. if a proper electric setup was mass-produced, it could be cheaper or at least similarly priced (only difference really would be etubo instead of turbo, and a high discharge alternator instead of custom exhaust manifold/downpipe), and it would be a little easier to install (no exhaust modification, oil lines to hookup). yes i know it wont be as thermodynamically efficient as a turbo, but it should be somewhat comparable to a supercharger. main advantages again would be installation, controlability, reliability. remember, the smaller motor the easier this would be. my 1.8 7a with a 300amp alt is still on the lower end of performance (although it would work). and with a 2.2 5s, your looking at an even higher power alt/motor required. time to crack open the books and do some hard calculations

Please explain how the reduction of the vacuum reading (to something less than boost) increases performance. I always understood that at vacuum or 0 the combustion chambers are getting the same air and fuel and flow. Are you saying this is incorrect?

well im sure youre aware that the mechanics of ICE's is extremely complex. NA engines are engineered to maximize the air mass enclosed in the cylinder after the intake valve closes. the timing of the intake valve is tuned to take maximum advantage of the phenomenon where the intake charge acquires a slight pressure to to rapid change in its velocity. this couples with the vacuum created by the pulse of exiting exhaust gases (exhaust scavenging) can actually create hyperbaric conditions in the chamber at certain speeds. now im not entirely sure that eliminating the vacuum would be benefitial, but my gut feeling says it would (i see no reason why it shouldnt trap more air per stroke), and what the hell, it couldnt hurt

This post has been edited by celicaST: Feb 10, 2006 - 6:31 PM

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

With the elimiation of the vacum, couldn't this help scavanging? This would help the exhaust pull, pull in more air due to it being readily avalible and not having to "suck" it in. It would just help the flow, I think. Might help these econo heads.

[celicaST]

ok well i just google eturbo+dyno, some finds:



discussion with possible reported dyno results

this one hes reporting is rated at 55amps (significantly more than the first one i saw at 2.2amp, but isnt continuous due to overheating. as long as the pump can flow more air than your engine is flowing, you WILL generate a pressure gradient (but the magnitude depends on the power of the pump). im convinced with a decently power motor, gains will be seen as long as the parasitic load on the alternator doesnt exceed the extra power generated.

heres the actual site for the eram, eram, theres some vids, testimonials and other stuff. make sure to read FAQ and buyers guide (fraud protection). this thing is legit, 2006 model is a 833watt motor (only activated at WOT), 2006. also on the home page, download and read the pdf file of magazine article dyno testing it on a civic. i might try one and see what its like.

This post has been edited by celicaST: Feb 10, 2006 - 8:50 PM

[madmods]

I have one laying around that I will donate if anybody has some dyno time. It basically works like ram air.
Its a boat impellar designed to move air into the cabins through ducting. Lets put it on a dyno to see if it does anything.

[celicaST]

heres the dyno of it that the magazine did. on a 95 civic



not bad for $300.

another interesting read, looks like its already produced, although this article is old VTES

this is probably what everybody has in mind when they are discounting the idea, and this sounds what madmods has (or something similar) e-turbo
ok notice on the box this is 3.5amp motor. now of course it didnt do anything, it doesnt matter if it can flow 230cfm in free air, these kids obviously know nothing about physics. this is so much different than the 833 watt eram motor, which by the way, im considering buying soon.

This post has been edited by celicaST: Feb 12, 2006 - 11:01 PM

[creis]

I know my statement sounded kinda bad, "never got around to it" kinda thing but its true I do stand behind it pushing 10-15 (probably more tward 10, but I cant back that up, its just what i felt it push. The only dyno I know of thats worth going to is 40 miles south, and I had no free time for that.

basicly all the thing was, is a fan, powered by a elecctric RC motor, now for thoes that dont know, RC motors can run Extreamly fast with minimal current.

in reality all a reg turbo is, is a fan pushing air into the motor, the fact that its powerd by the exhaust or a batt really makes no diff (with the exception that a reg turbo spools up and then helps pull the exhaust as well.) thinking about it, the idea of an electronic turbo could (maybe) be better in that if you can push enough air with the fan to create boost you would have far more control over your motors HP output because you can easaly change how much boost you want and when, with a very simple system.

Side note: I'm not saying some cheap turbo would ever be as good as a reg turbo, but just dont think it can do nothing for your motor.

[jgreening]

I know my statement sounded kinda bad, "never got around to it" kinda thing but its true I do stand behind it pushing 10-15 (probably more tward 10, but I cant back that up, its just what i felt it push. The only dyno I know of thats worth going to is 40 miles south, and I had no free time for that.

basicly all the thing was, is a fan, powered by a elecctric RC motor, now for thoes that dont know, RC motors can run Extreamly fast with minimal current.

in reality all a reg turbo is, is a fan pushing air into the motor, the fact that its powerd by the exhaust or a batt really makes no diff (with the exception that a reg turbo spools up and then helps pull the exhaust as well.) thinking about it, the idea of an electronic turbo could (maybe) be better in that if you can push enough air with the fan to create boost you would have far more control over your motors HP output because you can easaly change how much boost you want and when, with a very simple system.

Side note: I'm not saying some cheap turbo would ever be as good as a reg turbo, but just dont think it can do nothing for your motor.

For the record, my question about whether you measured in some way was not discounting what you felt. Altough you never had it on a dyno, I was wondering if you estimated these gains some other way (like a simple boost guage, for example). I have a hard time believing these devices could even result in positive boost of 1psi.

Also, is that dyno graph from the vendor or someone who bought one and tested it? It makes a difference.

[celicaST]

I know my statement sounded kinda bad, "never got around to it" kinda thing but its true I do stand behind it pushing 10-15 (probably more tward 10, but I cant back that up, its just what i felt it push. The only dyno I know of thats worth going to is 40 miles south, and I had no free time for that.

basicly all the thing was, is a fan, powered by a elecctric RC motor, now for thoes that dont know, RC motors can run Extreamly fast with minimal current.

in reality all a reg turbo is, is a fan pushing air into the motor, the fact that its powerd by the exhaust or a batt really makes no diff (with the exception that a reg turbo spools up and then helps pull the exhaust as well.) thinking about it, the idea of an electronic turbo could (maybe) be better in that if you can push enough air with the fan to create boost you would have far more control over your motors HP output because you can easaly change how much boost you want and when, with a very simple system.

Side note: I'm not saying some cheap turbo would ever be as good as a reg turbo, but just dont think it can do nothing for your motor.

im purchasing the e-ram tomorrow, and i will post impressions after installation. i encourage everybody to take a look at this product with an open mind. and like you said, it can be better than a conventional set-up. in fact, ive talked to my brother and we are going to build a high power electric forced induction setup (we are beginning to research and want to have it complete by end of 07, if not much earlier). ive given up on the idea of constantly running the motor because of power issues (and it would require an AC inverter and transformers), instead it will be more akin to the eram (activate at WOT), but with more power. we plan on running a 5+hp electric motor with a multi-stage compressor (kind of like a turbofan jet engine's compressors). it will be powered not the car battery or a seperate battery-pack, but by an ultracapacitor. this is what we are looking at using for power supply.

goal is to provide 10psi max boost on a 1.8L engine.

and it will be quicker than any 7afte running 10psi, because there will be no parasitic losses during periods of boost (power from ultracapicors was stored during periods of disuse from the alternator), and no turbo lag.

not to mention this will be very unique.

it will be a mix between the eram and the electric supercharger by thomas knight. we wont be using a roots blower, and we wont require the power that knights does because we are developing for 1.8L engine (but will also work fine on 2.2L). it will only be activated at WOT, but unlike both it will be powered solely by ultracapitors.

[creis]

well the anser is no it was not tested other then feel.

It is however holding your had over the outlest end wile its running was a good way to tell it pushes a lot of air. also I dont know if you guys have seen the fan blade on it, its not a conventional propeller that has massive restriction because the motor is in the way, its a rotary kinda fan (probably using the rong turm but its a fan that pushes the air horazontaly from the fans center so there is no restriction of the motor, and has a good 30 blades on it verticly from the center.

[celicaST]

I know my statement sounded kinda bad, "never got around to it" kinda thing but its true I do stand behind it pushing 10-15 (probably more tward 10, but I cant back that up, its just what i felt it push. The only dyno I know of thats worth going to is 40 miles south, and I had no free time for that.

basicly all the thing was, is a fan, powered by a elecctric RC motor, now for thoes that dont know, RC motors can run Extreamly fast with minimal current.

in reality all a reg turbo is, is a fan pushing air into the motor, the fact that its powerd by the exhaust or a batt really makes no diff (with the exception that a reg turbo spools up and then helps pull the exhaust as well.) thinking about it, the idea of an electronic turbo could (maybe) be better in that if you can push enough air with the fan to create boost you would have far more control over your motors HP output because you can easaly change how much boost you want and when, with a very simple system.

Side note: I'm not saying some cheap turbo would ever be as good as a reg turbo, but just dont think it can do nothing for your motor.

For the record, my question about whether you measured in some way was not discounting what you felt. Altough you never had it on a dyno, I was wondering if you estimated these gains some other way (like a simple boost guage, for example). I have a hard time believing these devices could even result in positive boost of 1psi.

Also, is that dyno graph from the vendor or someone who bought one and tested it? It makes a difference.

did you read the magazine review? S3 mag review of e-ram

i just dont understand why some of you are so in disbelief that this is possible and actually has a lot of promise. the e-ram is a 833 watt (a little over 1hp) motor forcing air into your intake. this isnt going to provide extraordinary gains, but it will provide gains nonetheless.

This post has been edited by celicaST: Feb 12, 2006 - 10:17 PM

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

Wouldn't it be hard to run 10psi due to the engine running bad when not boosting? The timing would be hard to figure I imagin.

[creis]

^ I'v read that, I was not impressed, the thing is kinda a crapy design as far as the fan goes, but 10hp is respectable.

[celicaST]

well the anser is no it was not tested other then feel.

It is however holding your had over the outlest end wile its running was a good way to tell it pushes a lot of air. also I dont know if you guys have seen the fan blade on it, its not a conventional propeller that has massive restriction because the motor is in the way, its a rotary kinda fan (probably using the rong turm but its a fan that pushes the air horazontaly from the fans center so there is no restriction of the motor, and has a good 30 blades on it verticly from the center.

ok lets get this straight once and for all. it doesnt matter how much the air a fan can push in unrestricted air(so holding your hand in front of it isnt going to be a good indication if it will be helpful). like the article i posted above witht the kids trying to use a marine blower. it might be able to blow 250 CFM in free air, but it wont be able to produce a significant pressure gradient becuase its only rated at 3.5amps (approx 42watts). imagine placing the output of a fan (or any compressor whether it be a displacement type or cetrifugal) to a closed container. as pressure builds, the air is trying to push its way out against the fan. the fan rpm will slow as pressure builds. it requires a high power fan and a properly desinged housing/compressor to maintain a significant pressure gradient.

^ I'v read that, I was not impressed, the thing is kinda a crapy design as far as the fan goes, but 10hp is respectable.

why arent you impressed? an axial fan has no inherent disadvange of a centrifugal fan. 10hp for 300 bucks is nice value in my opinion.

This post has been edited by celicaST: Feb 12, 2006 - 11:01 PM

[celicaST]

Wouldn't it be hard to run 10psi due to the engine running bad when not boosting? The timing would be hard to figure I imagin.

why would engine run bad while not boosting? i assumer youre talking about restriction of compressor blades. well if properly designed it should not provide a large restriction. however it will be more restrictive, and since we dont want a really slow car under normal driving, were planning on powering the motor continuosly from alternator(at a lower power) during normal driving (to provide around 0.5-1psi of boost). we thought of using a bypass valve, but thought the other idea to be much better and simpler. i dont get what your trying to say about timing.

[snapshotgt]

If it is possible to hook up some kind of boost gauge (or something else to measure the the output) to these eTurbo's, i'd be glad too try it out on mine...

Let me know...

~snap

This post has been edited by snapshotgt: Feb 12, 2006 - 10:42 PM

[celicaST]

If it is possible to hook up some kind of boost gauge (or something else to measure the the output) to these eTurbo's, i'd be glad too...

Let me know...

~snap

how powerful is your motor in your eturbo?

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

Wouldn't it be hard to run 10psi due to the engine running bad when not boosting? The timing would be hard to figure I imagin.

why would engine run bad while not boosting? i assumer youre talking about restriction of compressor blades. well if properly designed it should not provide a large restriction. however it will be more restrictive, and since we dont want a really slow car under normal driving, were planning on powering the motor continuosly from alternator(at a lower power) during normal driving (to provide around 0.5-1psi of boost). we thought of using a bypass valve, but thought the other idea to be much better and simpler. i dont get what your trying to say about timing.

No, I'm talking about how the car adjusts the the amount of air going through it. I just figured it would screw it up to have the on and off again high levels of boost. I think it's more than workable on low levels, but I don't know about high levels. It just seems like it would run weird. I don't know though.

[celicaST]

Wouldn't it be hard to run 10psi due to the engine running bad when not boosting? The timing would be hard to figure I imagin.

why would engine run bad while not boosting? i assumer youre talking about restriction of compressor blades. well if properly designed it should not provide a large restriction. however it will be more restrictive, and since we dont want a really slow car under normal driving, were planning on powering the motor continuosly from alternator(at a lower power) during normal driving (to provide around 0.5-1psi of boost). we thought of using a bypass valve, but thought the other idea to be much better and simpler. i dont get what your trying to say about timing.

No, I'm talking about how the car adjusts the the amount of air going through it. I just figured it would screw it up to have the on and off again high levels of boost. I think it's more than workable on low levels, but I don't know about high levels. It just seems like it would run weird. I don't know though.

why would it screw it up? the engine management responds to incoming data in milliseconds. even conventional turbocharged cars arent always at high boost (or boost at all). i assume youve seen a boost gauge on a turbo car theyre not always at max boost. keep in mind, with our setup we likewise are going to need fuel system upgrades, fuel management, and a intercooler.

[snapshotgt]

okay, i know now how to hook up a boost gauge...if anyone wants to donate/give me one, i'll get a boost read on it...pm me...

~snap

This post has been edited by snapshotgt: Feb 12, 2006 - 11:18 PM

[celicaST]

okay, i know now how to hook up a boost gauge...if anyone wants to donate/give me one, i'll get a boost read on it...pm me...

~snap

just to let you know, its going to be a waste of your time.

[95celgt]

well i can do 2 dyno runs for $30 so if anybody wants to to donate a blower with decent CFM let me know.

[celicaST]

well i can do 2 dyno runs for $30 so if anybody wants to to donate a blower with decent CFM let me know.

ahhhhh! again, the CFM isnt the only factor, it also needs powahhhh and the compressor and housing must be designed to inhibit blowback

i am purchasing the e-ram tomorrow, and i will post my impressions. also, anybody coming to the colorado meet, i will let them take a ride in my car with it connected and disconnected.

[95celgt]

haha, well, ill basically be doing it for fun, so any "decent" compressor will sufice.

[celicaST]

haha, well, ill basically be doing it for fun, so any "decent" compressor will sufice.

youll end up like these guys e-turbo. if you do it though, i want to see you destroy the fan more creatively

[BBoYRuGGeD]

keep in mind, with our setup we likewise are going to need fuel system upgrades, fuel management, and a intercooler.

just curious but why would u need an intercooler? if its just a fan connected to the intake its not like its taking hot exhuast air like a real turbo right?

bboy

[celicaST]

keep in mind, with our setup we likewise are going to need fuel system upgrades, fuel management, and a intercooler.

just curious but why would u need an intercooler? if its just a fan connected to the intake its not like its taking hot exhuast air like a real turbo right?

bboy

when you compress a gas quickly without letting heat flow to the environment, the work done on the gas will be transferred to heat in the gas. this is know as adiabatic compression where delta W (work done) equals delta E (internal energy). have you ever held the hose of an air compressor? it will get warm because of this fact. i dont get what your saying, a real turbo doesnt take hot exhaust air. the exhaust gases power a turbine that powers a compressor to compress the incoming air (which very well might be cold). but through the process of compression, the air's temperature increases.

also, when i said im going to need an intercooler, i wasnt talking for the e-ram if thats what you thought. it will be needed for the high power setup that me and my brother are in the process of designing and searching for parts we will need.

This post has been edited by celicaST: Feb 13, 2006 - 1:00 AM

[95celgt]

haha, well, ill basically be doing it for fun, so any "decent" compressor will sufice.

youll end up like these guys e-turbo. if you do it though, i want to see you destroy the fan more creatively

haha, i promise i will, unless the donor wants it back:P:P

[BBoYRuGGeD]

aaahhhh...well in any case good luck n hope u make some progress

bboy

[CelicaSTX02]

when you compress a gas quickly without letting heat flow to the environment, the work done on the gas will be transferred to heat in the gas. this is know as adiabatic compression where delta W (work done) equals delta E (internal energy). have you ever held the hose of an air compressor? it will get warm because of this fact. i dont get what your saying, a real turbo doesnt take hot exhaust air. the exhaust gases power a turbine that powers a compressor to compress the incoming air (which very well might be cold). but through the process of compression, the air's temperature increases.

also, when i said im going to need an intercooler, i wasnt talking for the e-ram if thats what you thought. it will be needed for the high power setup that me and my brother are in the process of designing and searching for parts we will need.

*Adiabatic means that "no heat is transferred...it does not enter or leave the system"
*internal energy is denoted with a "U" not an "E"
*basically what this kid is trying to say is that when you use a turbo, it causes a lot of heat. And to know how much heat is produced, you must understand adiabatic processes. A turbo just takes in air and compress it by increasing the velocity of the molecules. When the molecules doesn't have anywhere to go (like going back through the intercooler) the compression process heats it up. This heat is the disadvantage of turbochargers.

This post has been edited by CelicaSTX02: Feb 13, 2006 - 5:27 PM

[celicaST]

when you compress a gas quickly without letting heat flow to the environment, the work done on the gas will be transferred to heat in the gas. this is know as adiabatic compression where delta W (work done) equals delta E (internal energy). have you ever held the hose of an air compressor? it will get warm because of this fact. i dont get what your saying, a real turbo doesnt take hot exhaust air. the exhaust gases power a turbine that powers a compressor to compress the incoming air (which very well might be cold). but through the process of compression, the air's temperature increases.

also, when i said im going to need an intercooler, i wasnt talking for the e-ram if thats what you thought. it will be needed for the high power setup that me and my brother are in the process of designing and searching for parts we will need.

*Adiabatic means that "no heat is transferred...it does not enter or leave the system"
*internal energy is denoted with a "U" not an "E"
*basically what this kid is trying to say is that when you use a turbo, it causes a lot of heat. And to know how much heat is produced, you must understand adiabatic processes. A turbo just takes in air and compress it by increasing the velocity of the molecules. When the molecules doesn't have anywhere to go (like going back through the intercooler) the compression process heats it up. This heat is the disadvantage of turbochargers.

i dont get it, are you rewording what i said, or disagreeing with me? your definition of adiabatic is exactly what i said. assuming the time is minute, than it is a reasonable approximation that no heat is transferred, but the physical work of compression increases the internal energy of the gas. yes, i have seen internal energy represented by both U and E depending on the text and context.

[lilsteeg]

okay, i know now how to hook up a boost gauge...if anyone wants to donate/give me one, i'll get a boost read on it...pm me...

~snap

just to let you know, its going to be a waste of your time.

there is no point, even the bs cheep ones on ebay only claim 1 psi, thats like 1/8 of a moderate turbo set up which might get you like 30 or 40 extra hp, so 1 psi would net you like 5 at most
wooo hooo 5 more hp and all your friends laugh at you for doing it

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

okay, i know now how to hook up a boost gauge...if anyone wants to donate/give me one, i'll get a boost read on it...pm me...

~snap

just to let you know, its going to be a waste of your time.

there is no point, even the bs cheep ones on ebay only claim 1 psi, thats like 1/8 of a moderate turbo set up which might get you like 30 or 40 extra hp, so 1 psi would net you like 5 at most
wooo hooo 5 more hp and all your friends laugh at you for doing it

I can't wate till he gets this thing working and shows everyone. Then, he will be the one laughing. I'll just have a nice smile for a week or so.

[celicaST]

okay, i know now how to hook up a boost gauge...if anyone wants to donate/give me one, i'll get a boost read on it...pm me...

~snap

just to let you know, its going to be a waste of your time.

there is no point, even the bs cheep ones on ebay only claim 1 psi, thats like 1/8 of a moderate turbo set up which might get you like 30 or 40 extra hp, so 1 psi would net you like 5 at most
wooo hooo 5 more hp and all your friends laugh at you for doing it

the cheap bs ones on ebay dont work. weve settled that. they dont even provide the 1psi they claim. 1psi of positve pressure is better than 1psi of vacuum isnt it? last time i checked it was. and remember this is a hell of a lot cheaper than a turbo setup. you could buy an exhaust, headers, and intake and still not see the same gains you will from this. and since when should you care what your friends think, take them for a ride to shut them up.

dont worry bulldog, im getting the e-ram. when it gets here ill post pics and impressions. im also looking into increasing its power to 1135 watts over 833 by powering it from a seperate ultracapacitor pack (the one ill eventually use in the high power setup) rated at 16.2 volts. thats the nice thing about electric motors, they dont really have a "max" hp however, ill need to contact eracing and find out which exact motor theyre using so i can see if it could handle the increased amperage. it shouldnt be a problem i suspect considering the high air flow environment provides ample cooling. the only issue would be increased brush wear perhaps, but thats no big deal this should as place me at around 1si of positive pressure im guestimating.

This post has been edited by celicaST: Feb 14, 2006 - 12:31 AM

[Smokeeey420]

i saw that car on ebay. i almost lmao. if you look he also has a front mount intercooler not even connected to anything haha

wtf that'z funny as hell.........some people r krazy

[lagos]

i havent been keeping up on this thread....and just clicked on it now and started reading the posts with my jaw to the floor.... my god, im ashamed to be a celica owner.