3SGE Beams VS 4AGE Blacktop 6SPD Options

[JoKeRkId613]

I will be getting a redtop Beams 3SGE in my Celica around mid-May. But I'm curious as to which engine really is better. I mean, if the ST205 was the exact same engine except no turbo, how much HP would it put out approximately, compared to the already NA Beams. I think Beams puts out 200HP(please correct me, if wrong...)? Thanks. I guess maybe what I'm trying to figrue out is if you stuck some low-comp pistons in the Beams and some other minor mods and the same CT26 or CT20 turbo, would it have more horses and be more powerful than the factory ST205?

Also, I'm real stuck between the Beams and 4AGE blacktop 6 speed. What would you guys choose? and why? Price isn't an issue and both engines will be left stock, maybe minor mods(Intake, Headers, Exhaust)...

Some advantages I see with the blacktop is that since my car is a coupe, I already have a tiny bit of weight advantage over a hatchback and the blacktop being a 1.6L will keep me at lower weight and it has 6speeds.

[OrbitalGT95]

I will be getting a redtop Beams 3SGE in my Celica around mid-May. But I'm curious as to which engine really is better. I mean, if the ST205 was the exact same engine except no turbo, how much HP would it put out approximately, compared to the already NA Beams. I think Beams puts out 200HP(please correct me, if wrong...)? Thanks. I guess maybe what I'm trying to figrue out is if you stuck some low-comp pistons in the Beams and some other minor mods and the same CT26 or CT20 turbo, would it have more horses and be more powerful than the factory ST205?

Also, I'm real stuck between the Beams and 4AGE blacktop 6 speed. What would you guys choose? and why? Price isn't an issue and both engines will be left stock, maybe minor mods(Intake, Headers, Exhaust)...

Some advantages I see with the blacktop is that since my car is a coupe, I already have a tiny bit of weight advantage over a hatchback and the blacktop being a 1.6L will keep me at lower weight and it has 6speeds.

ya but the 6spd is a rwd tranny so it wont work

[Kwanza26]

There is NO competion between the two motors. C'mon... completely different classes. There's nearly a 40hp difference between the two. Obviously the Beams is the better motor. Also... you CANNOT compare the Beams to the 3SGTE. Let's say you put low comp pistons in the Beams and turbo charge it... it will NOT make significantly more power than a regular 3SGTE because it's basically the same thing. One of the MAJOR reasons the beams makes as much power as it does is due to its high compression. If you negate that... it's not a 200hp motor anymore.

[j0e_p3t]

i'd go with the beams. its newer and faster (right?). and what are you gonna do with 6 gears anyways. but if money's not an issue, you can do whatever you want.

[ummmx2]

i thought you were gonna turbo? what happened?

[CelicaZR]

I would've to say beams.
They look beautiful in the engine bay.
Definiately one of the best n/a motor you can put in a 6gc.

[NaKeD]

i would say 3sge beams
thats my dream engine, NA engine is my style

3sge beam on ebay

celicaZR showed me that, i drool over it for a while

If only i had the money

NaKeD

[maikl]

my brother has a corolla 1998 with the black top 6speed and i have the ss-iii with the beams engine so i know VERY good both of the engines... 6peed is fun but in the 3-4 gear the power betwin the beams and the 4a-ge is HUGE!!!! i've onced raced my brother car.. i was driving the corolla 4a-ge and a friend of mine my car and the difference was big... my car won (beams) both cars were stock at the time...

This post has been edited by maikl: Mar 2, 2006 - 11:41 AM

[BBoYRuGGeD]

i say beams cuz they look prettier

and cuz its faster stock form

bboy

[95celgt]

i love beams, but i'd go black top, its like 1/3 of the price for the beams:S

[Alchemist_57]

why isn't the 4age and other motors covered in the info-section. just wondering, cuz it only talks about the 3sfe, 3sge and 3sgte motors...aside from the USDM ones.

[Hanyo]

i was sleepy when i read this. I thought your comparing the alteza 3s vs the celica 3s.


why would you want a 4a? its a smaller engine.

i dont see why we need to discuss this? the choice is blatant.

its like asking any car enthusis. Do you want a 4 banger or a v6?

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

4AGE is just as good a motor though. You can't possibly base which motor is "better" by only looking at displacement and peak power output.

4AGE's are possibly one of the most well engineered, performance designed 4 cylinder N/A motors ever built by Toyota. I would love to have a BEAMS, but I really think that for the money the 4AGE would be a better choice. Its significantly cheaper and you can get your hands on a ton of parts for 4AGE motors of any type these days.

[Punch]

for the money the 3sge cost you can get a 3sgte front clip, that way you can have all the parts you need for your swap ...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JDM-3SGTE-S...1QQcmdZViewItem

[Jdog1385]

you should really say in the pole if they're feasible. i believe there's only one swapped beams celica in north america so not much references and literature. hope you're good with cars or you have an amazing mechanic that knows toyotas

[JoKeRkId613]

you should really say in the pole if they're feasible. i believe there's only one swapped beams celica in north america so not much references and literature. hope you're good with cars or you have an amazing mechanic that knows toyotas

Both swaps are very feasible... i'm not too good with cars but i do have an amazing mechanic that knows toyotas...Dr. Tweak.

[JoKeRkId613]

ya but the 6spd is a rwd tranny so it wont work

I think ure confusing the blacktop 4age with the blacktop beams... very different

i thought you were gonna turbo? what happened?

i was. i still have all the parts but i got in an unexpected debt and i figured im better off getting a new engine, so i figured, why not get a new engine that's better than the 7a? eventually ill go turbo with whichever engine i go with. that TRD blacktop 4agte looks real nice.

[brianforster]

your not gonna wanna turbo the beams..

[JoKeRkId613]

i didnt think i had to get so specific. of course, id be putting low comp pistons and little mods here and there to make the turbo work. i wouldnt turbo a 11:1 compression motor... c'mon man.lol.

[Jdog1385]

you should really say in the pole if they're feasible. i believe there's only one swapped beams celica in north america so not much references and literature. hope you're good with cars or you have an amazing mechanic that knows toyotas

Both swaps are very feasible... i'm not too good with cars but i do have an amazing mechanic that knows toyotas...Dr. Tweak.

u took him from me, damn you. haha

[soulshadow]

A beam tottaly owns the 4age in the 1/4 mile.
C'mon if your racing a beams and a 4age in a celica, the 4age is gonna lose its only a 1.6 with 6 spd (165hp). Your never gonna go fast enough to use that 6th gear before the finish line.

[BLACKcelicaGT]

i didnt think i had to get so specific. of course, id be putting low comp pistons and little mods here and there to make the turbo work. i wouldnt turbo a 11:1 compression motor... c'mon man.lol.

by lowering the compression then turbo charging it you just made a really expensive 3sgte with a pretty red top

This post has been edited by BLACKcelicaGT: Mar 13, 2006 - 2:26 AM

[delusionz]

I know I'm digging up an old thread here, but would the redtop 3s-ge beams head not have better flow characteristics than a silvertop 3s-ge head? and what about changing the vvt-i changeover point to be at the point of positive boost....

Just in querying in response to claims that turboing a red top would not give u better power than starting with a 3s-gte itself... What I have in mind is the update to the 1jz-gte engine in the JDM Toyota Soarer (Aka Lexus SC300 to you guys) in 1996 where the engine went from IL6 2500cc twin turbo to IL6 2500cc single turbo VVT-i, the hp figure remained 276hp but the torque figures looked a hell of alot better; 378Nm @ 2400RPM for VVT-i and 363Nm @ 4800RPM for the older twin turbo (numbers from from wikipedia).. Thoughts anyone?

[Kwanza26]

I know I'm digging up an old thread here, but would the redtop 3s-ge beams head not have better flow characteristics than a silvertop 3s-ge head? and what about changing the vvt-i changeover point to be at the point of positive boost....

Just in querying in response to claims that turboing a red top would not give u better power than starting with a 3s-gte itself... What I have in mind is the update to the 1jz-gte engine in the JDM Toyota Soarer (Aka Lexus SC300 to you guys) in 1996 where the engine went from IL6 2500cc twin turbo to IL6 2500cc single turbo VVT-i, the hp figure remained 276hp but the torque figures looked a hell of alot better; 378Nm @ 2400RPM for VVT-i and 363Nm @ 4800RPM for the older twin turbo (numbers from from wikipedia).. Thoughts anyone?

Reviving a very old thread... heh

First off, I should correct your statement "silvertop 3s-ge". I'm going to assume you're talking about the silvertop 4age. In which case, the silvertop 4age, although it does have 3 intake valves, the actual valve surface is only marginally larger than a standard 16v 4age. I don't think it has better flow characteristics than a Beams redtop 3sge, given the beams head makes near 200hp at the same revolutions as the silvertop 20V. The difference is, the 4A block is much better designed to rev, whereas the 3S block is not, yet the 3SGE still matches the 4AGE silvertop in terms of hp per liter. Not to mention the 20V 4ag's have a much better "top-end" intake set-up...

As far as VVTi goes, I think you are confused about the function of VVTi. The purpose of VVTi is to improve throttle response, which is dictated by the torque curve. In terms of raw horsepower, VVTi is negated by the fact it is variable and computer controlled. It does not work, as you mention, like VTEC or VVT where you can change the crossover point. VVTi is always engaging (for the most part) and works based on throttle position, engine speed, etc. It's not a switchover where you would notice power gains. By the time the engine speeds up enough to make maximum power, VVTi is already negated because its function is to provide torque in the mid-range. Basically, it drastically doesn't affect horsepower. Race motors (high horsepower motors) tend to eliminate computer controlled cam timing because, although it can work to improve mid-range torque and overall useability, it's not designed to maximize power, hence you would probably end up with relatively the same amount of power as a normal 3SGTE, because that's essentially wht you'd have built, VVTi or not. So why the trouble?

[parriehunter]

There is a BEAMS motor that they call the "silver/grey" top. It actually has a black head but only has single vvti unlike the black top.

[delusionz]

Sorry Kwanza but step back a minute, I'm referring to my 3rd gen 3S-GE (Yes I know my own motor) as a silvertop head which would be the same head as used in a 3rd gen 3S-GTE. I never made any mention to 4A-GE and I'm well aware that a 4A-GE head would never fit on a 3S motor and why would you ever bother is beyond me.

Now back to the point at hand... 3rd gen head vs 4th gen head for 3S-GTE, I'm talking about torque, since in the top range, displacement is displacement, peak hp is peak hp if its still 2 litres same boost same compression. Purely the benefit of VVT-i for low end rpm response with a turbocharged application is what I'm trying to get at like the comparison I made with the 1jz going from twin turbo to single turbo vvt-i.

And yeah, VVT-i does have a changeover point, in a blacktop 4a-ge levin/trueno its at 4500rpm or 55kph in 2nd gear.

And yeah, I'm sure it's just as controllable as the way I've been able to control the RPM point of ACIS changeover in my 3rd gen 3S-GE (what I call silvertop).

[Kwanza26]

Sorry Kwanza but step back a minute, I'm referring to my 3rd gen 3S-GE (Yes I know my own motor) as a silvertop head which would be the same head as used in a 3rd gen 3S-GTE. I never made any mention to 4A-GE and I'm well aware that a 4A-GE head would never fit on a 3S motor and why would you ever bother is beyond me.

Now back to the point at hand... 3rd gen head vs 4th gen head for 3S-GTE, I'm talking about torque, since in the top range, displacement is displacement, peak hp is peak hp if its still 2 litres same boost same compression. Purely the benefit of VVT-i for low end rpm response with a turbocharged application is what I'm trying to get at like the comparison I made with the 1jz going from twin turbo to single turbo vvt-i.

And yeah, VVT-i does have a changeover point, in a blacktop 4a-ge levin/trueno its at 4500rpm or 55kph in 2nd gear.

And yeah, I'm sure it's just as controllable as the way I've been able to control the RPM point of ACIS changeover in my 3rd gen 3S-GE (what I call silvertop).

This topic was originally about the 4AGE 20V and a Beams 3SGE. When you say "silvertop" in a topic dealing 20V's... how many people are gonna know what you're talking about? And who calls the 3SGE "silvetop" anyway? Wouldn't all engines technically be "silvertops"? heh...

Anyway... yeah... I made no mention of any head swapping either, simply saying there is no comparison between the two ("silvertop" referring to 4AGE... not 3sge). As far as a turbo BEAMS goes... why? I'm not going to say VVTi can't help, because if it's tuned for FI, it surely will, but in this case... why? Why spend the extra thousands of dollars for VVTi when you can spend a few hundred for adjustable cam gears that do the same thing, arguably better in a build for the top numbers? Also, VVTi cannot be controlled to the degree ACIS can. ACIS (older versions anyway) are mechanical so they can be controlled. VVTi is electronic and built into the computer. It cannot be easily controlled, nor can it be tuned without a complete retune of the computer. Specifically, the "i" part of VVTi is its intelligence. There are no set parameters in terms of settings.

As for the 20V's (4AGs)... those are VVT, the predecessor to VVTi and it is different. There is a changeover point, but it also doesn't do the same stuff VVTi does. VVTi can do varying degrees of adjustments based on various inputs, whereas VVT only advances/retards a few degrees or so based on engine speed.

There is a BEAMS motor that they call the "silver/grey" top. It actually has a black head but only has single vvti unlike the black top.

That's specifically a "greytop"... Never heard of anything called a silvertop besides the 4AGE 20V...

This post has been edited by Kwanza26: Oct 31, 2008 - 6:24 PM

[delusionz]

ACIS (older versions anyway) are mechanical so they can be controlled. VVTi is electronic and built into the computer. It cannot be easily controlled, nor can it be tuned without a complete retune of the computer. Specifically, the "i" part of VVTi is its intelligence. There are no set parameters in terms of settings.

As for the 20V's (4AGs)... those are VVT, the predecessor to VVTi and it is different. There is a changeover point, but it also doesn't do the same stuff VVTi does. VVTi can do varying degrees of adjustments based on various inputs, whereas VVT only advances/retards a few degrees or so based on engine speed.

If VVT-i is electronic then I'd assume it has an actuator that takes a 12v signal for engage and 0v for disengaged yeah?

Theres only one VVT-i that I know (never owned or driven any other vvt-i), its in my friends blacktop 4a-ge trueno (jdm stuff) because he goes crazy with foot-tech, and when I gave it a drive I punched 2nd gear from 3000 to 8000 to see what its low speed pickup was like and the only changeover Ive ever noticed is at 4500, not like a randomly seeking might be here might be there like ACIS, the whole reason why I made my own ACIS controller is because it would get stuck on/off inappropriately...

[Rusty]

just throwing in my 2cents

The "Grey Top" BEAMS 3S-GE was an available engine option in the Rav4 in Japan. Even though the valve cover on this engine is black, it is referred to as "Grey Top" to differentiate it from the Dual-VVTi "Black Top" in the Altezza. Power output is 177 bhp (132 kW, 180 PS) @ 6600 rpm.

VVT-i, or Variable Valve Timing with intelligence, is an automobile variable valve timing technology developed by Toyota, similar to the i-VTEC technology by Honda. The Toyota VVT-i system replaces the Toyota VVT offered starting in 1991 on the 4A-GE 20-Valve engine. The VVT system is a 2-stage hydraulically controlled cam phasing system.

VVT-i, introduced in 1996, varies the timing of the intake valves by adjusting the relationship between the camshaft drive (belt, scissor-gear or chain) and intake camshaft. Engine oil pressure is applied to an actuator to adjust the camshaft position.

just throwing in my 2cents

I'm not going to say VVTi can't help, because if it's tuned for FI, it surely will, but in this case... why? Why spend the extra thousands of dollars for VVTi when you can spend a few hundred for adjustable cam gears that do the same thing, arguably better in a build for the top numbers?

what like this?

or even 3S-GZE??



BUT both are fine motors 4A-GE's & 3S-GE's

This post has been edited by Rusty: Oct 31, 2008 - 11:18 PM

[Cuts_the_Pilot]

what about 2zz-ge, top motor, vvtl-i...lift is awsome.
dont count it out, 180 hp, 1.8 litre, lighter then both 4a and 3s.

[Rusty]

oh yea I love the lift on that,imagine increasing the displacment to a 2.0L

[delusionz]

Just had crazy ideas about higher peak torque levels from 2000 instead of 3000 or 4000 or even 5800, for the most part, our Celicas are road cars, and 2000 - 4000 RPM is probably where we spend most of the time driving.

[WH95TE]

Jason, where are you? lol

[JoKeRkId613]

Jason, where are you? lol

damn, this thread is ooold! lol. whats up?

[Shigexile]

i would choose the 3sge because my car is a gt and share the same mounts. Plus, the engine is so beautiful looking and RARE!

[soulshadow]

If money was not an issue, I'd find a way to make that Beams a 6SPD.

[mr220v]

Ok, since I own both motors, I have to say the beams 3sge will kick the crap out of a blacktop 4age. For that matter a 2nd or 3rd gen 3sge will be the faster motor.

I have a beams 3sge in a mk2 mr2, and a blacktop 20v in my mk1 mr2. My beams mk2 is faster than my 20v mk1 despite being heavier.

This post has been edited by mr220v: Feb 4, 2009 - 4:05 PM

[Junior]

I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but a beams motor running VVTi and turbo WILL produce less power then a 3s-gte. Most turbo charged motors with VVTi or any other variable valve timing (like VTEC) has their variable valve timing removed or disengaged. Variable Valve timing creates too much overlap which reduces the horse power and torque production potential. If you are going to turbo, do not waste the money on a beams. The features of a beams motor that makes it powerful will be lost after installing a turbo. You will NOT have high compression and you will NOT have VVTi.

[silver6gc]

Junior Posted Today, 08:55 PM
I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but a beams motor running VVTi and turbo WILL produce less power then a 3s-gte. Most turbo charged motors with VVTi or any other variable valve timing (like VTEC) has their variable valve timing removed or disengaged. Variable Valve timing creates too much overlap which reduces the horse power and torque production potential. If you are going to turbo, do not waste the money on a beams. The features of a beams motor that makes it powerful will be lost after installing a turbo. You will NOT have high compression and you will NOT have VVTi.

Are you insane? Have you ever heard of a car called the Supra, or the Soarer as previously mentioned in this thread, they got MORE torque by using VVT-i. Ask any Honda guy, they love vtec with a turbo. I have never in my life met someone who said "Oh I'm going to get rid of my vtec because I'm going to turbo my car instead.". Congratulations you fail.

I can't find the other quote I wanted to use, but to answer it, there is no change-over point with VVT-i. That's all there is to it, no arguments necessary, it is constantly variable based on engine running conditions and load.

Also, to correct any and all presumptions by anybody about the purpose of VVT-i, it's main purpose and function is to replace the EGR system and get better emissions, it is not meant as a power adder but can have the effect in certain cases (i.e. Supra and Soarer). Again, no arguments needed, I have that written "in stone" by Toyota.

[Junior]

Junior Posted Today, 08:55 PM
I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but a beams motor running VVTi and turbo WILL produce less power then a 3s-gte. Most turbo charged motors with VVTi or any other variable valve timing (like VTEC) has their variable valve timing removed or disengaged. Variable Valve timing creates too much overlap which reduces the horse power and torque production potential. If you are going to turbo, do not waste the money on a beams. The features of a beams motor that makes it powerful will be lost after installing a turbo. You will NOT have high compression and you will NOT have VVTi.

Are you insane? Have you ever heard of a car called the Supra, or the Soarer as previously mentioned in this thread, they got MORE torque by using VVT-i. Ask any Honda guy, they love vtec with a turbo. I have never in my life met someone who said "Oh I'm going to get rid of my vtec because I'm going to turbo my car instead.". Congratulations you fail.

I can't find the other quote I wanted to use, but to answer it, there is no change-over point with VVT-i. That's all there is to it, no arguments necessary, it is constantly variable based on engine running conditions and load.

Also, to correct any and all presumptions by anybody about the purpose of VVT-i, it's main purpose and function is to replace the EGR system and get better emissions, it is not meant as a power adder but can have the effect in certain cases (i.e. Supra and Soarer). Again, no arguments needed, I have that written "in stone" by Toyota.

You need to check yourself and not be so rude. Do yourself a favour and read up on cam overlap. Variable Valve Timing increases the amount of cam overlap. Reduce this overlap by removing variable valve timing and you'll see power gains in turbo applications. The supra is turbo charged and has VVT-i, but like you said it is to replace the EGR system to get better emissions. This doesn't mean that cars come from the factory tuned to the best of their capabilities. The supra would see better power production if it didn't have VVT-i or and EGR system.

[delusionz]

Junior Posted Today, 08:55 PM
I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but a beams motor running VVTi and turbo WILL produce less power then a 3s-gte. Most turbo charged motors with VVTi or any other variable valve timing (like VTEC) has their variable valve timing removed or disengaged. Variable Valve timing creates too much overlap which reduces the horse power and torque production potential. If you are going to turbo, do not waste the money on a beams. The features of a beams motor that makes it powerful will be lost after installing a turbo. You will NOT have high compression and you will NOT have VVTi.

Are you insane? Have you ever heard of a car called the Supra, or the Soarer as previously mentioned in this thread, they got MORE torque by using VVT-i. Ask any Honda guy, they love vtec with a turbo. I have never in my life met someone who said "Oh I'm going to get rid of my vtec because I'm going to turbo my car instead.". Congratulations you fail.

I can't find the other quote I wanted to use, but to answer it, there is no change-over point with VVT-i. That's all there is to it, no arguments necessary, it is constantly variable based on engine running conditions and load.

Also, to correct any and all presumptions by anybody about the purpose of VVT-i, it's main purpose and function is to replace the EGR system and get better emissions, it is not meant as a power adder but can have the effect in certain cases (i.e. Supra and Soarer). Again, no arguments needed, I have that written "in stone" by Toyota.

You need to check yourself and not be so rude. Do yourself a favour and read up on cam overlap. Variable Valve Timing increases the amount of cam overlap. Reduce this overlap by removing variable valve timing and you'll see power gains in turbo applications. The supra is turbo charged and has VVT-i, but like you said it is to replace the EGR system to get better emissions. This doesn't mean that cars come from the factory tuned to the best of their capabilities. The supra would see better power production if it didn't have VVT-i or and EGR system.

I agree with Silver6gc, Take this for example, the 1JZ-GTE lost Twin turbos in favor of a larger single huffer.... This alone would dictate a huge loss in low end torque yet the addition of VVT-i and the .5 increase in static compression along with other adjustments have led to a higher torque level at 2000 than the old peak torque level at 5000. I would say VVT-i is a very good fix for low end response, turbo or non turbo.

[Rusty]

just want to add my 2c's in here

MIVEC (Mitsubishi Innovative Valve timing Electronic Control system)

Can you believe that its been 16 years since the 4G63 first roared to life? But the legendary 2 L turbo with its throaty snarl and linear power curve has been replaced by the 4B11. Just like the 4G63 the 4B11 is a 2 L turbocharged and intercooled weapon. In fact, the architecture of the two motors is pretty much the same. However, the 4B11 T/C has 217kw and produced more torque that the 4G63 at all engine speeds, peaking at 366nm at 3500 rpm.

The 4B11 is also 12kg lighter, thanks mainly to a cast aluminium block. The 4G63 used cast iron. During the casting processes, Mitsubishi has also been able to reinforce the block to make it stronger. Inside is all business. A cross-drilled steel crank rotates in 4 bolt main bearing caps, and forged rods all help prepare the motor for buckets of boost. The high strength gravity cast aluminium pistons are now fully floating compared to the semi floating in the 4G63. To reduce friction loss and increase reliability compression is now up from 8.8 to 9.0.

The new aluminium head is also a different kettle of fish. It uses a direct acting valve train to replace the roller rocker configuration which further reduces weight because there are fewer moving parts. And if thats not enought the MIVEC consistently variable valve timing system now works on the exhaust ports as well as the intake ports. This means more power, higher fuel efficiency and lower emissions.

This post has been edited by Rusty: Feb 6, 2009 - 10:26 PM

[Ronan]

Ive had both the 20v blacktop in my Levin and the Beams in my SS-III. The Beams is a better base for building power. To get a blacktop (better then the silvertop IMO) to even the same power as a standard Beams would be VERY expensive. Youd be much better off putting that money into the Beams.

But that doesnt make the 4A-GE 20v blacktop any less of a great engine. 8k rpm plus 6 speed gear box is ALOT of fun to drive. High revs plus short gears always puts a smile on my face. The 3S-GE Beams only revs to 7k and has 5 LONG gears, too long in my opinion. Having such long gears is a problem when all your power is literally at the redline.

My 20v Blacktop:

http://www.bebo.com/PhotoAlbum.jsp?PhotoAlbumId=4048222346

My Beams:

[Rusty]

The Beams is a better base for building power

to a point, they don't make VVTi 3SGE cams anymore (and if you do most likly they are for inoperative VVTI, also a part to disable VVT-I a plug is nolonger available) if you did the same work on both 3SGE(3rdgen) & 3SGE(BEAMS) you get the same power. (cams, compression, quad throttlebodies)
although the price for the 3SGE quad throttlebodies is about $2000(unknown currency)

the best thing you could do is have a very light car with either of these engines tuned. it will fly!!

[BonzaiCelica]

So some of you guys were saying that 4age blacktop with 6spd is not possible in a celica? but looking on wikipedia i found this
list of C transmissions : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_C_transmission
and modified toyota levin specs on engine and gear ratios: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/804063


i also saw that Carina GT came with exact transmission as corolla levin came with. 5spd C52 and 6spd C160.
so does that mean it is feasible. i was also looking on ebay and i searched 4age blacktop. some had 6spd and others 5spd.

i know the corolla trueno has 6spd blacktops in them. but isn't that same transmission used in the levin and carina gt??

btw what fuel octane does blacktop and redtop use. i believe its a minimum of 93 octane for both. could be wrong i think i saw blacktop saying it required 100 octane

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Apr 9, 2009 - 12:50 AM

[Rusty]

I've heard that Japan does have very high octane gas over there (100+), we have 91(lowest) 95 & 98 at the pump. so it must run ok

[BonzaiCelica]

hmm ok wow thats pretty high. in california the highest we get is 91. due to emissions im guessing. other states in U.S. i believe run up to 95.

so can anybody answer my question?

edit: haha just looking back at my post and i used the word feasible without even knowing it until now

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Apr 9, 2009 - 2:27 AM

[azian_advanced]

you don't need 100 octane or whatever japan offers... just use premium 91 and up. the higher the better for high compression engines to prevent detonation. the lower ron rating will be compensated by the ecu by making the necessary adjustments to make it run properly.

[DEATH]

you don't need 100 octane or whatever japan offers... just use premium 91 and up. the higher the better for high compression engines to prevent detonation. the lower ron rating will be compensated by the ecu by making the necessary adjustments to make it run properly.

What he's refering to here is we use a different method to calculate octane here in the US so where they may have 100-104 overseas that would be equal to a lower rating here in the states. Meaning our 93 octane is not equal to their 93 - it would actually be higher octane. Not sure what the specific conversion factors are - I'm sur eyou can google it online.
Long story short - Our 93 octane is perfectly fine for both of these motors and also the 3S-GTE engines which also require higher octane fuel. I use 93 in my 3S-GTE with every single tank.
Hope this helps

[BonzaiCelica]

hmm i believe i understand how it works. looked it up on google like u said and found this http://www.answers.com/topic/octane-rating-1

quote from link: 87 octane fuel, the "regular" gasoline in the US and Canada, is 91–92 in Europe. However most European pumps deliver 95 (RON) as "unleaded", equivalent to 90–91 US (R+M)/2, and some even deliver 98 (RON), 100 (RON), or 102 (RON).

so if i were to go to fontona raceway. i heard that they have racing fuel up to 130. that will obviously work better on the blacktop n beams right. or is it not really necessary. and death, ur saying you guys have 93 octane over there when CA has 91 t highest. emissions have anything to do with it.

also thinking about honda's vtec usdm engine's vs the jdm engines. for instance the b18c engine from 94-96 gsr integra has 180hp in japan of 10.6 compression and 170hp of 10.1 compression in us with .
in japan they use 104 and here the most we can use is 91. same thing right.

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Apr 9, 2009 - 3:32 PM

[Rusty]

and to add to my previous comment all our fuel is unleaded, but you can buy lead addative for older cars.

so if i were to go to fontona raceway. i heard that they have racing fuel up to 130. that will obviously work better on the blacktop n beams right. or is it not really necessary.

if want to melt your pistons?
higher octane fuel doesn't add horsepower it just means you can run higher boost or compression safely

[Ryouxrs]

what about 2zz-ge, top motor, vvtl-i...lift is awsome.
dont count it out, 180 hp, 1.8 litre, lighter then both 4a and 3s.

X2!!!! i miss my 2zz, that motor kicked ass, almost 300 hp. to the wheels with just a turbo kit with 8psi and water injection, u could hit lift and 8350 rpm all day long, and not hurt it. but just to add anouther question... can a black tops 6spd be put into a 7a celica? are the bellhousings close enough? or is this just anouther wet dream? lmao

[DEATH]

death, ur saying you guys have 93 octane over there when CA has 91 t highest. emissions have anything to do with it.

Not sure - Cali's just gay - they can't even mod their sh*t over there

also thinking about honda's vtec usdm engine's vs the jdm engines. for instance the b18c engine from 94-96 gsr integra has 180hp in japan of 10.6 compression and 170hp of 10.1 compression in us with .
in japan they use 104 and here the most we can use is 91. same thing right.

Same here as on my RC ECU - more agressive tune to take advantage of the higher octane fuel.
If I take my car to the track here and get US 104octane race fuel it'll wake up even more


This post has been edited by DEATH: Apr 10, 2009 - 10:36 PM

[DEATH]

but just to add anouther question... can a black tops 6spd be put into a 7a celica? are the bellhousings close enough? or is this just anouther wet dream? lmao

Black top what? BEAMS or 4A-GE? There is a blacktop version of both.
The BEAMS can be done but it would be a lot of work and the IM would have to be custom or perhaps [but IDK] the redtop IM would work.
The BT 4A-GE can easily be swapped into an ST along with the Levin FWD 6Speed tranny

[Dr_Tweak]

So some of you guys were saying that 4age blacktop with 6spd is not possible in a celica? but looking on wikipedia i found this
list of C transmissions : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_C_transmission
and modified toyota levin specs on engine and gear ratios: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/804063


i also saw that Carina GT came with exact transmission as corolla levin came with. 5spd C52 and 6spd C160.
so does that mean it is feasible. i was also looking on ebay and i searched 4age blacktop. some had 6spd and others 5spd.

i know the corolla trueno has 6spd blacktops in them. but isn't that same transmission used in the levin and carina gt??

btw what fuel octane does blacktop and redtop use. i believe its a minimum of 93 octane for both. could be wrong i think i saw blacktop saying it required 100 octane

The 4AGE Blacktop is available with a 6-speed FRONT WHEEL DRIVE transmission. Yes, you can swap this into the 6th gen since it is FWD.

The 3SGE BEAMS Blacktop comes with a 6-speed REAR WHEEL DRIVE transmission. You cannot swap this into a 6th gen (generally speaking).

I think that's where the confusion is coming from, there are two "Blacktop" engines. Hope that helps

-Doc

[Ryouxrs]

So some of you guys were saying that 4age blacktop with 6spd is not possible in a celica? but looking on wikipedia i found this
list of C transmissions : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_C_transmission
and modified toyota levin specs on engine and gear ratios: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/804063


i also saw that Carina GT came with exact transmission as corolla levin came with. 5spd C52 and 6spd C160.
so does that mean it is feasible. i was also looking on ebay and i searched 4age blacktop. some had 6spd and others 5spd.

i know the corolla trueno has 6spd blacktops in them. but isn't that same transmission used in the levin and carina gt??

btw what fuel octane does blacktop and redtop use. i believe its a minimum of 93 octane for both. could be wrong i think i saw blacktop saying it required 100 octane

The 4AGE Blacktop is available with a 6-speed FRONT WHEEL DRIVE transmission. Yes, you can swap this into the 6th gen since it is FWD.

The 3SGE BEAMS Blacktop comes with a 6-speed REAR WHEEL DRIVE transmission. You cannot swap this into a 6th gen (generally speaking).

I think that's where the confusion is coming from, there are two "Blacktop" engines. Hope that helps

-Doc

thanks guys, now the issue is findind a 4a 6speed tranny and figuring out how the heck to bolt it up to my 7a. lmao

[BonzaiCelica]

alright thx for the reply tweak. But being that it is 6 spd. i already know for a 5spd 4age i would just need to send wiring harness to you, get custom a/c and p/s. but since a 6spd would be going into the st celica. what else is needed. shifter cables. is 6spd tranny same size as 5spd tranny?? im thinking about going this way since it would be cheaper than going with a 3sge motor. and plus it wud be a 6spd celi

[BonzaiCelica]

wow another video of toyota failing with the 2zz-ge, and not having the superstrut suspension on the sport m celica version. the race is in the last 10 min of this 56 min video enjoy. be patient it takes a while to load.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTYzMTA1NjA0.html