bad news for my 3SGTE engine (56K ouchie), NOW UPDATED WITH THE NEW PLAN!!! Options

[presure2]

well, looks like i have a worse case senario on my hands at this point.
removed the head on the 3s ive been working on, first thing i noticed was TONS of carbon..tops of the pistons are coated with it, its so heavy is actually flaking off.
next i had a look at the cylinder walls..and i discovered this:

needless to say, the wife can feel it with her fingernail, and from what ive read, that = time for the machine shop.
which absolutly blows.
i had no intention of "building" this motor, as my power goals (~250WHP) really do not warrant it, and i really wanted to try and get it in ASAP.
so, now im at a crossroad....do i say to hell with it, and buy forged rods and pistons over the next several months, and slowly over the next year or so build the motor, and then start the headwork...(cause IMO its kinda pointless to put a factory head on a built block) which could take ANOTHER year with MY budget!...lol OR
another option at this point is a factory short block..i can get one new for as little as 1450$ or so to my door.
have the head rebuilt (~600) and start new...
OR
at this point, im fairly confident in the 5s block, we know the weak point is pistons and rods..and hell, im pretty close to my power goal as it is with the 5sfTe..im starting to think that for my power level, i could build the 5s to take the beating pretty easily for the next few years..especially if i spent a little more time on tuning, or stepped up and bought the emanage or somthing...
thoughts? ideas? comments?
help me out here, guys, im kinda bummed out about this whole thing.

[b1gr3d]

see if they can hone the hell out of it before getting it broed...otherwise i would do option 1 OR sell this motor and use the money for new 5s internals

[devilsden97]

wow bad break manny. i dont even know what to say.....in away i would want you to just stay 5sfTe because your like the original...well one of the few whos motor is still going.....build it up..drop like 300 ponies to the wheel....become a legend (well more then u already are)

[BBoYRuGGeD]

damn sorry to hear that manny...if ur serious about only 250whp as your goal then i'd say stick with ur awesome 5sfte setup, with it built to handle boost it'll probably be just as reliable as a 3sgte and most likely cheaper at this point. if u EVER wunna go higher...then i think you should build that 3sgte up...tho from what u say, will take awhile which would suck. damn u got a hard choice but the best of luck to you and whatever you choose is best for you

bboy

[playr158]

awww poo.....i'm sorry to hear about that manny...do i hear the words stroker ringing in the air?!!? lol maybe you should just go 5sgte?

[Defgeph]

Damn Manny.

I would check with every machine shop to see if they can save it. If not.

See if Jeremy has a spare block. Or drive to conneticut and take the engine from that dead alltrac. I'll see if I can find one for you.

Sorry Manny
Jeff

[jgreening]

You sure that can't be machined out without going to aftermarket pistons?

If not, I think forgies are the way to go. Get some minor overbore and don't spend any money on the head. Get a MLS head gasket and ARP head bolts. With that, you will have a relatively inexpensive, rock solid set-up that is capable of running very high boost with a small turbo and race gas. It would rock.

Oh yea, find some very wide front wheels too.....

This post has been edited by jgreening: May 1, 2006 - 11:28 AM

[lagos]

sorry to hear about your 3s. its a good thing you took that head off and found out now.

it seems like anyway you look at it, your going to either be rebuilding the 3s or the 5s. at least with the 3s, youll know that if you do it once, it will last forever (in theory). with the 5sfe, youll alwasy be in uncharted territory.

remember when u wanted just a little power from your 5sfTE? it starts out as.... i just want 180hp.....i just want 220hp.....i just want 250hp..... you know how that goes, we are all addicted. at least a 3sgte will give you lots of room to grow. god only knows how much power youll be making years from now.

i would compare the prices of an oem rebuild, done locally.... vs a new toyota shortblock. as nice as forged pisotons are, the 3sgte pistons are not know to be a weak point on the motor. i think you would more then meet your goals on an oem rebuild and save some cash.

the other option (if your budget is really tight) is to keep an eye out for someone selling a shortblock. i think Sean for ctech has an extra one he was trying to sell me. might want to contact him.

whatever block you do, i would also take the time to rebuild the head. a new block with an old head would be a bad idea in my opinion

This post has been edited by lagos: May 1, 2006 - 11:46 AM

[playr158]

Ok more indepth opinion of mine....


that isn't going to get machined out with out going to an over bore .010" if your really lucky but .020" isn't going to hurt..hop over to ebay right soon and you'll see some arais pistons that are for overbore fitment at a relativily cheap price.. IMO don't even bother touching the rods they should be fine if anything you can have them shot peen'd. This will save you money (IE not buying forged rods) and will hold more then a 250whp potential as the stock rods have shown capable of over 400whp. i think you should talk to a machine shop and have the bore redone to a minimum needed requirement to remove the imperfection get a set of forged pistons and seal it back up don't even bother with the rods. see don't you remember me saying to replace that headgasket anyways even though you didn't need to.. manny's "dont fix it if it ain't broke yet" theory can always set aside cause look wat you learned good luck manny

[x_itchy_b_x]

HOLY CARBON! man i hate to see that. put the money you would put into the 5sfte to get new pistons and rehone the cylinders. more boost later down the line. maybe we can get together this weekend. ill come down.

[Jeremy1210]

A little off topic, but how does a scratch like that happen? I mean everything is smooth when its made, so did something get in there somehow?

[presure2]

thanks for the replies, guys.
theres no doubt that is gonna need oversized pistons.
as far as the goal thing, it was always 2 seperate goals, one for the engine, and one for the car, because i was never expecting to make the power i have with the 5s.
being as close as i am to my goal for the car with the 5sfte, i must admit my first thought is to continue to work on improving the 5sfte setup i have, and go from there, slowly working on the 3s build as $$ and time allow..
keep your opinions and thoughts coming.
player, if your footing the bill, ill start the stroker tommorow. you call ricky and order me up the nemisis, cause thats the FIRST thing that'd be on my list to go with it.
jeremy, its my understanding that scratches like that are caused by somthing that dont belong in there...lol
maybe contaminated oil...ect..i dont really know what exactly cause these.

[playr158]

lol i got my own bill with some of those parts on there

i did the same thing to my race bike's cylinder wall caused by a piston wrist clip coming loose

[bigal004321]

I hope my 3s doesnt look like that on the inside..can a compression check give a hint as to the condition of the block or is that strictly for HG?

Bigal

[GT4WRC]

From personal experience, I doubt it very much if a hone would be enough to remove that scratch. It would probably require a rebore at the least. Given the cost of a new replacement block, weigh up the cost of a re-bore and oversized pistons. Then decide which you can afford. Other option could be a used short block from a wrecker perhaps if your budget is tight. Bung that in and then rebuild your current block over time when funds allow.
Gary

[Batman722]

we talked about it but I will put my opinion down

there are 2 things to look at...costs and goals

first, your goal - around 250whp and reliability (you know as well as I do that any more hp than what you have is borderline useless...unless you like to buy new tires every few weeks )

needed for the 5s
stronger pistons and rods - that would give you more peace of mind with the god-like fte set up you have and make it long term reliable.
If you want more hp out of it, then get some cams and you should be right around 250whp - with the bigger injectors, 2.5 MAP, clutch, flywheel...

needed for the 3s
either rework the current block you have with bigger pistons, ect..or get a new block from Toyota. Either choice you need to rebuild the head. Proven daily driven reliability and power will be there.

now costs

5s costs
pistons, rods, 2.5 MAP, flywheel, cams, injectors, clutch...what around $1600-$1800ish ?

3s costs
rework (and pistons, rods) or new block around $1400 easy, head rebuild - $500, and still all of the costs waiting in plans for the 3s...a bazillion $$

with the 5sfe, youll alwasy be in uncharted territory.

I 100% agree with Art - you have done what no one else has done with that 5s, what no one thought you could do, and what no one thought would last.... but with that in mind, you have proven everyone wrong so far, why not prove them wrong for a few more years.

IMO, lets strengthen the 5s this summer, and you will without any doubt have the best, most reliable, most unique, highest hp 5s in any 6th gen. You have a swap killer...make it better

[lagos]

I 100% agree with Art - you have done what no one else has done with that 5s, what no one thought you could do, and what no one thought would last

its funny you said that, because i pretty much said the same thing to manny today on the phone. no one else has really taken a 5sfe this far. mad props to manny.

5s costs
pistons, rods, 2.5 MAP, flywheel, cams, injectors, clutch...what around $1600-$1800ish ?

3s costs
rework (and pistons, rods) or new block around $1400 easy, head rebuild - $500, and still all of the costs waiting in plans for the 3s...a bazillion $$

very good point. the one thing im missing is, why crack into the 5sfe? it runs, its fine. keep it where its at an enjoy it while it lasts. its all uncharted terrtory, and for all you know, you could make a mistake while installing the new pisonts or some other unforseen problem could happen and end up with 2 damaged motors.

when you step back and look at it. your going to be spending 2grand on either motor. i would put that money into the 3sgte. why? because you can get a very realiable OEM short block and head rebuild that has been proven time and time again to be a rock solid setup. it will give you lots of room to grow in the future too. you know that next year your going to want to have 300hp and try to break into 12s at the track, right? we all say we only want XXX hp ... but the fact is, that you alwasy want more .

[97sccelica]

you really should try to just hone it and see how much better it gets

my buddies built mustang had lines like that in the cylinders, we dont know what caused it.

either way, he simply had the cylinders honed and put the motor back together. it runs just fine.

by fine i mean runs 9's, doesnt burn oil, and drives well on the city streets

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

Damn Manny, sorry to hear about the motor.

However I've had this thought before....everybody on here has there own special something to bring to the table on 6GC. For us east coast guys it's very much a reality.....for example, Jeff is the 3SGTE RC king. Coomer IS the yelli celi, with the unique 4AGE 20v. Dustin is the wiring/twin celicas with hot JDM style/UK forum guru. Romas IS the custom master. Art and Erik are the EC swap pioneers......etc.

Now when I think of Manny and Jenn's car, I think awesome one-of-a-kind, dyno proven 5SFTE power. And that super mean looking front end profile on squeaky clean white paint. In my mind, this is a car that ALWAYS gets me excited every time I see it in action, simply because its SUPER unique and thats what makes it their car. I only hope that I can turn out having a car just as unique and awe-inspiring.



Theres alot of positive things to say about the 3SGTE.....but theres just as much, if not more, to be said about individuality. I would LOVE to see the 5SFTE keep on kicking in your car. Just remember that when choosing.

This post has been edited by Silver94CelicaOwner: May 2, 2006 - 5:51 PM

[presure2]

thanks corey, i appreciate the kind words.
what your talking about is exactly what jenn and i have been thinking about, and talking over with the guys i trust most.
im thinking by tommorow ill have a solid plan that i can move forward confidently with.
ill post my finalized plan tommorow.

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

No prob Manny, I've always loved you and wife's Celica as does this whole site I'm sure.

Good luck though with whatever you guys decide.

[OOBE]

Manny, I say keep building the 5S-FE. You are already there with that torque monster. Like everybody said, you'll be unique. I don't know how it is here in the States, but back home, the 5S-FE is a popular platform and many people have gotten ridiculous power levels out of it. Usually, the econo-engines end up being the most built ones with the most power output. Just this week, some older friend of mine dynoed 545.X WHP and 499.X TQ on his '97 Mirage LS. A 1.8 liter SOHC econo-engine that started life breathing only 113 crank horsepower. There's not a lot done to the engine other than forged pistons and rods, and little supporting mods. So I say keep at it, because hey, we all know that it's not the ones who follow trends that get remembered. It's the ones who SET those trends and think outside the box. You are of the latter category...stay in it.

[celicast3sgte]

3s-gte 2.2 Stroker.... nemesis ecu, and forged pistons, keep the rods, keep the head (for now) you can pull it off in car later on. itll give you the best of both worlds. just my opinion for what it carries around here

[madmods]

I would have to say the plan on keeping you 5 and little by little working on the 3 when time and money permits. You have a fast motor already. Take your time, little money here and there on the 3. If it takes
2 years, let it be. If you pull your 5 motor out, you got down time on your baby. Enjoy your 5, don't push it
too hard. I would die to have that motor.

[presure2]

3s-gte 2.2 Stroker.... nemesis ecu, and forged pistons, keep the rods, keep the head (for now) you can pull it off in car later on. itll give you the best of both worlds. just my opinion for what it carries around here

if you wanna dump me the close to 10K it would take to do that PROPERLY, id be more than happy to. the idea of putting a stock head on a stroker motor is pointless to me.

ok guys...ive been thinking ALOT about all the diffrent senarios, talking to all of my good friends (thanks guys) about the good and bad of each setup, including cost, goals, and knowledge required to get each senario done, ect.

ive come up with a few things.

#1 and most importanly, im a broke mofo. lol i dont have a large reserve of cash that i can lay into to build ANY motor, let alone a 3sgte monster.
#2 the 5sfTe has be VERY good to me up till this point, and shows no signs of stopping.

so, that said, im going to put the 3SGTE plan on the back burner for a while. im going to put the block and head in engine bags, and kinda stuff it in a corner for awhile.

the 5SFTE is gonna take me where i wanna go.

i have a few minor things i want to work on "shoring-up", that i had kinda been ignoring in anticipation of the 3s. basicly tidy up the whole setup, just make it a cleaner, more efficent install, with a cleaner look.
i need to reroute my water bypass lines for the oil cooler and turbo, they were kinda just thrown together last minute, so i need to take a little time and optimize that.
i NEED to get my damn oil cooler actually mounted. lol as well as do somthing about the GETTO autozone dryer duct intake pipe.
im thinking about getting new intercooler piping as well. my piping is alumizied, and while it hasnt started yet, it can and will eventually rust. i HAVE to replace it before it starts to rust, you all can imagine how nice a chunk of rust would sound running thru my engine.
once that smaller stuff is taken care of, im gonna save up a bit and get the emanage, or ultimate emanage, depending on the outcome of more research.
one thing i noticed from a quick browse is that the emanage ultimate has compensation maps, which i think is a really cool thing, and will allow me to learn more about tuning on a basic level.
like i was telling the chicken man last night, the emanage is like the next logical step in the learning process for me. while its not a full standalone, it works on alot of the same principals, and alot of the operational process works like a standalone would.
once i got all that externall stuff taken care of, i will continue to push the motor, expanding the horizon on what can be done with the little 5s.
ive had an offer from nukeularhappiness for an adjustable cam gear, (itd be a 2jz gear thats machined to fit the 5s cam), and im thinking i may take him up on that, as well as maybe trying a cam.
i really wanna try and optimize my pump gas tune, cause i know there is ALOT more in it if i can get it properlly tuned.
and, even in a worse case senario, one thing that we realized in all the talk...the 5s is a very cheap, and available everywhere, in practicly every junkyard across the contry.
if i pop mine, finding a replacement will be easy, and relitivly cheap. hell, i can pick up a nice 96+ camry motor for around 600, and a 98-99 for around 800.
i also wanna take a second, and thank ALL OF YOU.
most of you have taken an interest in my project since day one, and i appreciate that greatly.
this project is somthing that has taken on a life of its own, with the help of all the cool people i have met on this site, and others.
without all of you, nothing ive accoplished with it would have been possible. thank you.
and with your help, ill take this thing to the next level, and beyond.

[lagos]

sounds like a good plan. i think the emanage and the cam work are very good ideas.

only thing i would say, is before replacing the ic piping. try to primer, paint and clear coat it. as long as you give it a good layer of protection on the outside, it should last you along time. the only reaon why i say that , is because i know how expensive replacing the ic piping could be. painting it would make it look better and last longer for 10bucks max.

[presure2]

sounds like a good plan. i think the emanage and the cam work are very good ideas.

only thing i would say, is before replacing the ic piping. try to primer, paint and clear coat it. as long as you give it a good layer of protection on the outside, it should last you along time. the only reaon why i say that , is because i know how expensive replacing the ic piping could be. painting it would make it look better and last longer for 10bucks max.

yea, that would do the outside, but thats not what im worried about, art..its the inside that really matters.
besides, the aluminized piping was 110$, not too bad, this time ill not cheap out on it and prolly get aluminum piping, and have it mostly welded.

[lagos]

sounds good... clean it up . i want to see more bling under the hood then that red supra has!

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

Manny that sounds like a great plan.

I'm sure that the EManage will really open up alot of doors for your motor. Also I totally agree with the cam idea, you'll then be looking at a much smoother and more linear HP and TQ curve. I think that when your current setup is refined further, it'll really be even more of a masterpiece than it already is.

Good luck with everything.

[BBoYRuGGeD]

good look manny im sure u can push that motor a lil' more

bboy