Autocross: I got madd questions for you guys!, Info needed for the crowd that autocrosses Options

[jdg371]

Im starting to collect my suspension for an STS Celica. I will be running my Celica in STS[N] for the winter season [3 different series] Being in STS isn't as easy as GSN was.. haha. Right now my stock springs are getting worn [stupid quick]; I will need a replacement as soon as I get the money [haha] For the autoX fellas out there.. what would you recommend???

Some might read this and not get it.. heres an example

Front XX kg
Rear XX kg


--------------------
The only other car I can really base it on are the AE92 Crowd.. although they're lighter [300 I think..] and are more rev happy [Damn their stock 4AGE..] suspension is probably closely related [setup wise]


THANKS!

This post has been edited by jdg371: Nov 21, 2006 - 2:43 PM

[jdg371]

Someone?

well.. how about TRD springs?? whats their spring rate?? someone has to know!

[playr158]

i doubt anyone has gotten into tuning their celica that much....talk to ground control..i know they do custom spring rates and can help you decide

[jdg371]

that sucks. I know theres a couple autocrossers out here.. tho.

[Kwanza26]

Rates are tuned more to drivers... and not necessarily to cars. I personally like very stiff rear springs (8-10kg) when reacing and softer fronts (~6kg)... There are also other things like dampning and stuff... but strictly springs and autoX... all depends on what class you're trying to run in. Too much suspension work and you end up in a class you don't belong.

[jdg371]

I have been moved to GS- I can run either Open class or Street Tire..
In either class. I would be better off running the course..

I will move to STS after the winter season. So research will be done [so will the $ issues.. ]

In STS I can do plenty of suspension modifications.. NO Engine MODs.. with the exception of header, intake, pulleys.

My priority is to get a set of adjustable struts and stiff springs.. probably 325 front/ 450-475 rear and match it with some KYB AGX.

after I destroy my current tires.. I will get some 205/50 Azenis

Then off to get some front and rear strut bars, and rear sway.

If I feel rich [or have the money.. LOL] I will grab some camber plates. Suggestions on what to get? Or what not to get..

I will be basing my adjustment to similar FWDs

[purplegt4]

tein:

front: 7
rear: 5

trd:

front: 8
rear: 6

[purplegt4]

more from trd:

Standard ride height=front -35mm/ rear -15mm

Recommend ride height when driving in circuit
=front -50mm/rear -30mm

[94celicadude]

i currently auto-x my AT200 in STS, i have suspension tech. sway bars, front and rear, eibach pro kit springs, dont know the rate on those, cutom front sway bar, camber adjustment bolts with 1 degree - camber in front and 1.5 degree - camber in rear. those are my only suspension mods, and i was able to take 2nd place in STS in my region this season. Just ended last weekend. For the rest of my mods you can check my profile, but i love the setup i have on the ST coupe, now if ur car is a GT hatch then, more tweaking is required, i have one car of each and the AT200 will outhandle the ST204 anyday, and they both have the EXACT same suspension mods. GT has custom rear strut bar. I think the extra weight from hatch and rear windshield have a lot to do with it, but i dont know for sure. Good luck finding a setup you like.

This post has been edited by 94celicadude: Nov 6, 2006 - 1:03 AM

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

My GT seems to be doing well so far. I run STS class as well. Miro, member on here, has a nice ST Celica he autox's. He was first this year in STS. I joined late, but I'm hoping for 1st next year. He has dropzones, and they make his car handle nice. I have a set in my garage I'm putting on Tuesday. I'll let you know in a month after they settle how well they did. You've got to move fast to get ready for next session.

[jdg371]

cool. never knew we had soo many people that autocross. I ended at umm top 10 in the novice with 3 events [6 total events]

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

cool. never knew we had soo many people that autocross. I ended at umm top 10 in the novice with 3 events [6 total events]

Good job. These Celica's are great for autoX. I'm wondering which of the GT and ST are the better. My buddy with the ST says it's better due to wieght (see topic in general discussion), but he admits that the GT definately has more power. But, is it really enough to overcome the weight advantage? It's almost a 5sfe vs 7sfe question. There aren't many 6gc'ers who race autoX, they all want to talk about drag racing and peak hp. You all know who you are. If you're talking nothing but peak hp, you're not in it for the driving, just the bragging rights. That's why I fear no 3sgte at the track. But, that goes against my GT being better than the ST. I can't wate to start the new session, I'm going to try for 1st this year.

[jdg371]

The extra power does not compensate for the weight. Having a light weight ST fairs better. For begginers [like me] The 100hp that my 7AFE throws out is enough. maybe even plenty. When the time comes that I learn the Celica's reaction to any situation.. then maybe more power would be needed. I still need to work on my driving more than anything else

[purplegt4]

get a simulator. haha

[jdg371]

i currently auto-x my AT200 in STS, i have suspension tech. sway bars, front and rear, eibach pro kit springs, dont know the rate on those, cutom front sway bar, camber adjustment bolts with 1 degree - camber in front and 1.5 degree - camber in rear. those are my only suspension mods, and i was able to take 2nd place in STS in my region this season. Just ended last weekend. For the rest of my mods you can check my profile, but i love the setup i have on the ST coupe, now if ur car is a GT hatch then, more tweaking is required, i have one car of each and the AT200 will outhandle the ST204 anyday, and they both have the EXACT same suspension mods. GT has custom rear strut bar. I think the extra weight from hatch and rear windshield have a lot to do with it, but i dont know for sure. Good luck finding a setup you like.

Im getting the stock setup for the ST and GTs today at Toyota.. I need some help finding out an agressive stance for my car in STS.

[Kwanza26]

tein:

front: 7
rear: 5

trd:

front: 8
rear: 6

Where'd you get these numbers? Those are awfully stiff spring rates...

tein S-techs are roughly 3.2kg/mm fronts and about 2kg/mm rears

I forget TRD's (eibach's) specs... but most of the street kits available aren't that firm... typicall less than 4kg/mm. Springs as firm as 6-8kg/mm usually run about 200.00+ a pair.

[94celicadude]

i have both a Gt and St, and i am willing to vouch that the ST coupe handles MUCH better than the GT hatch, and that is with EXACTLY same mods to both of them and using same rims/tire combo, the ST wins all everytime.

[Kwanza26]

i have both a Gt and St, and i am willing to vouch that the ST coupe handles MUCH better than the GT hatch, and that is with EXACTLY same mods to both of them and using same rims/tire combo, the ST wins all everytime.

I agree with this statement regarding to autoX...

[purplegt4]

tein:

front: 7
rear: 5

trd:

front: 8
rear: 6

Where'd you get these numbers? Those are awfully stiff spring rates...

tein S-techs are roughly 3.2kg/mm fronts and about 2kg/mm rears

I forget TRD's (eibach's) specs... but most of the street kits available aren't that firm... typicall less than 4kg/mm. Springs as firm as 6-8kg/mm usually run about 200.00+ a pair.

sorry forgot my works cited part for my post.

these are spring rates for damper kits

tein: http://www.tein.com/ti/l36.html
trd: http://toyota-trd.jp/en/strt/s-heightadjustablesk.html

(spring rates for the damper kits)

[Kwanza26]

sorry forgot my works cited part for my post.

these are spring rates for damper kits

tein: http://www.tein.com/ti/l36.html
trd: http://toyota-trd.jp/en/strt/s-heightadjustablesk.html

(spring rates for the damper kits)

Ahh... those are full dampning kits which are basically full shocks and adjustable coilovers... BLING! I thought you meant drop-in springs...

[purplegt4]

i should be more specific. my fault.

[jdg371]

225/45/16s are what Iam running on in my last event.. and whoa! my rear hates me.. it kicks out hard when I let off the acc. and when I take a sweeper.. halfway on a left or right sweeper it looses traction in the rear..

Remedy for this kick out?

[purplegt4]

i'm thinking: adjust rear sway bar, if it is adjustable that is.

[jdg371]

nothing is adjustable except for my tire pressure. =[

I was planning on getting some tires once more on my 15s but.. 300 for a set uhh.. i dont make good money at my work.. lol

I had an idea.. might sound dumb as fcuk but o well..

Front: 225/45/16 ES100
Rear: 205/50/15 Ecsta SPT

they are the same height.. I would have less chances of getting loose because their not as wide in the rear. I would however get more rotation in the rear during tight turns

[jdg371]

nothing is adjustable except for my tire pressure. =[

I was planning on getting some tires once more on my 15s but.. 300 for a set uhh.. i dont make good money at my work.. lol

I had an idea.. might sound dumb as fcuk but o well..

Front: 225/45/16 ES100
Rear: 205/50/15 Ecsta SPT

they are the same height.. I would have less chances of getting loose because their not as wide in the rear. I would however get more rotation in the rear during tight turns

[miro1975]

I'm running my ST in our SWVR and won a STS for a season. Nate with his GT just started, so I trying to help him as much as I can, but he did great for a first time. I was impressed.
Anyway...
I'm using Dropzone lovering springs 1.5" drop with a OEM shocks. Super set up for a start. Also using GT sway bars. ( helped a lot) Camber front: -2.6, rear -1.0 Best what you can do for no many spended. Next season buying adjustable shock. That is going to help a lot, because my current ones are shot pretty bad. So buy some Dropzones or whatever with max 1.5" drop, if you want to stick with stock shocks and just learn the car. After you know your car , you can start spend more many in to it. That way you buing something what is going to actually help you. Lots off people spending many for all kind off sway bars, strut bars , coilovers etc with out any sense or knowledge. So that's what I think and you can take it or not. Good luck with your car and have fun with it. Web side: swvrscca.org

http://s66.photobucket.com/albums/h246/mir...autoxcelica.jpg

This post has been edited by miro1975: Nov 23, 2006 - 12:04 AM

[miro1975]

Falken Azenis. Best tire for autocross 200 tw , A A
Great tire.

[jdg371]

Im staying stock for a while. I might get some camber in the F/R for the winter season.. but thats about it..

heres a pic of my car taking a turn. I think I lifted the rear tire lol.. can you say stupid ammount of bodyroll?

[miro1975]

Some body roll is actually good for autocross. Gives you better grip at tite corners. But - camber gonna help you a lot. Get your self a set of camber bolts at you all set. You can do up to -2.7, I think. Car looks good on course...

[Kwanza26]

nothing is adjustable except for my tire pressure. =[

I was planning on getting some tires once more on my 15s but.. 300 for a set uhh.. i dont make good money at my work.. lol

I had an idea.. might sound dumb as fcuk but o well..

Front: 225/45/16 ES100
Rear: 205/50/15 Ecsta SPT

they are the same height.. I would have less chances of getting loose because their not as wide in the rear. I would however get more rotation in the rear during tight turns

I used to run something similar to that. If I remember correctly...

Fronts were 215/45/16
Rears were 195/50/16

[soulshadow]

Honestly for FWD cars, If you increase the spring height in the front and lower the back you get better turning vs lower the front and raise the back. Plus if you run stock tires it actually performs better than aftermarket tuner tires. One plus side if you can't raise the height is to let out some pressure from the back tires and increase the pressure in the front. Adding extra weight to the front actually makes it easier to control cornering when your sliding. Remember your not on an offical track and your just on a parking lot. A parking lot actually slides easier than real roads. What you can do in real life does not count on a lot. So no fancy moves will actually work.........such as hugging a guard rail.

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

Honestly for FWD cars, If you increase the spring height in the front and lower the back you get better turning vs lower the front and raise the back. Plus if you run stock tires it actually performs better than aftermarket tuner tires. One plus side if you can't raise the height is to let out some pressure from the back tires and increase the pressure in the front. Adding extra weight to the front actually makes it easier to control cornering when your sliding. Remember your not on an offical track and your just on a parking lot. A parking lot actually slides easier than real roads. What you can do in real life does not count on a lot. So no fancy moves will actually work.........such as hugging a guard rail.

You should never raise the car for autocross. Lower is better. Sometimes you can run less psi in the rear to keep it a little loose. Adding weight to the front isn't a good idea. You get all the weight up there you need when you break, especially in a Celica. I've never seen a FWD car that needed wieght up front. Some could use it in the back to keep them from "flopping" about and loosing the back end though. I don't understand by what you mean by no fancy tricks. You have to hit the best line, and you have to use the cars body role to control it. What other tricks are there? 360s? Not all autocross is on parking lots. And even if I was, different lots have different levels of traction.

[Hanyo]

You should never raise the car for autocross. Lower is better. Sometimes you can run less psi in the rear to keep it a little loose. Adding weight to the front isn't a good idea. You get all the weight up there you need when you break, especially in a Celica. I've never seen a FWD car that needed wieght up front. Some could use it in the back to keep them from "flopping" about and loosing the back end though. I don't understand by what you mean by no fancy tricks. You have to hit the best line, and you have to use the cars body role to control it. What other tricks are there? 360s? Not all autocross is on parking lots. And even if I was, different lots have different levels of traction.

i disagree with your logic.

I'm into RC car suspention tuning and this is where i base my suspention knowledge. Since this is a front wheel drive car, it will experience understeer. Decreaseing rear tire pressure will increase contact patch therefore increasing grip. Increase rear grip will make the car understeer even more. I do know inorder to drive a fwd car fast around the track, you can brake hard and shift the weight to the front causings the rear of the car to have less grip. This will essentially cause the rear to slide out allowing you to make tighter turns and decreasing understeer.

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

Hanyo, I see why your saying what your saying. It's something that I've heard a long time ago and have used and seen other racers use, but never seen actual reference for it.

HERE for Reference

[DanKimber]

Back in the day the stripped ST coupes were the autocross cars to have. They were actually faster then the GT's. The ST's are lighter, have little to know wheel spin issues (at least my R-compound experience) and have more low end torque then the GT's. I believe that the GT's also fall off of their powerband on the 1 -2 shift.

When the back end of your car rotates be sure to keep your foot in the throttle, to pull it out. I run mine with the back quite loose, either by stiffening the rebound on the shocks, ie tap brake car rotates, or by running 205 tires in the rear.

I currently live in the Milwaukee area, where Jeff Cashmore resides, multiple time national champ, who stills has one of the celicas he used to autocross. For stock Jeff tried all sorts of different front bars and came back to stock bar as being the best.

Locally you may make one into a competitve STS car, but nationally I do not think it will happen. The car even though quite light will always be at a weight disadvantage, and is down on power even compared to the lower powered STS cars (wait a minute they are all low powered!!). The suspension can only be lowered a so much or the geometry will be out of whack and mess up the handling.

For any of them get the full negative camber in the front, and you should be able to yank about 1 degree in the rear. I run with about 1/8" toe out in the front and 0 toe in the rear. A good alingment is the best bang for the buck.

I really like they car, just whish they would have moved it to H-stock like they had proposed.

Dan

[jdg371]

Prep since I have money again. Getting an alignment [finally!]

I have two 2dot and two 3dot camber bolts.. are the rears adjustable? I haven't messed around with alignment and not sure if its possible to put camber bolts in the rear. If it is.. I will put the 3dots in front and 2dots in the rear.

from what ive read.. 1degree front and 1.5degree rear is ideal?

I will be running on some.. Azenis 215s [older version]

[DanKimber]

Put the smallest bolts you have in the front should be able to get about 2.5 degrees negative camber.
The rear is adjustable, though I have not messed with it, stock you should be able to get about 1 degree of negative camber.

I would also go with zero toe in the rear and about 1/8" total toe out in the front. (these are based on a stock class car)

And yes you will wear your tires at an angle.

Dan



Forgot something else.

The old hot stock autocross set-up used to be running GT struts in the front and Convertible struts in the rear. Possibly a lower cost alternative then adjustables.

Dan

[jdg371]

Thanks. How bad of tire wear would that setup add?

I'll use those alignment specs and get it aligned hopefully Wednesday or Thurday.

This post has been edited by jdg371: Mar 12, 2007 - 8:56 PM

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

I'm going to run about 1.7-1.8 up front and 1.5 in the rear. Miro (STS Region Champ) runs 2.0 in front and 1.5 in the rear. I think that's right, he might come on here and correct me.

[uberschall]

i'm going to shoot for -2.5 front, -2.0 and zero toe on the rear.

i am still debating between falken 615s and the hankook 512. i have used the 615s in the past and been very happy, but i've been hearing alot of good things about the hankooks lately.

i'm stoked, i have a set of ss dampers waiting to be installed. it's going to take some time to get everything dialed in, but it'll be awesome when it's set.

[jdg371]

I should have vids and pics for my upcomming event this Sunday..

Saturday is when my car will get the alignment.. and the same date when I can put my steelies on with the 205 azenis.. hehehe for 40 bucks.. they have a crap load of thread