2AZFE? Options

[uberschall]

primarily for conversation...

seeing as the 2AZFE has assumed the role of replacement for the 5SFE, and it is similar in application and displacement....how feasible/worthwhile is a swap in your opinion?

i got to thinking about it because it is a much better 6-speed option than the peaky, fragile 2ZZ.

based on a quick browse on ebay, the highest price i found for the motor itself was $1700.

and for pete's sake, don't be obnoxious.

[Bitter]

it looks like the engine faces the correct way atleast, but you'd need to make your own wiring harness and retrofit all the OBD2 stuff in or find a way to eliminate it. the 2azfe seems like a good strong engine, and alot lighter than the 5sfe, it'd be a nice well balanced upgrade that would make the cars balance closer to center.

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

Balance doesn't feel to bad now, but lighter is always better. Is that the 2.4 in the Camry? I'll look it up.
EDIT: Looked it up. That's the Camry and TC motor. It's nuts. They are saying someone got 320 NA hp out of that motor. That's just stupid. It just seems like a bigger 5sfe with vvti. Am I missing something? How come they can get so much more power out of a 2.4 than has been gotten from a 2.2? I guess they even talked of putting it in the Lotus instead of the 2zzge. I'm just mad that my motor sucks right now. This happens at least once a week it seems. Damn 5sfe.

This post has been edited by Bigmeanbulldog55: Nov 9, 2006 - 3:03 AM

[ExSane]

Is this engine a A-series engine like the 4A and 7A?

[pure_dx]

^dont think so, that Z is looking outta place

the 2azfe is a well rounded engine, fairly new, there is a trd supercharger or you can buy a turbo kit. ZPI (zero point industries, big name for the TC community) offers a 230 whp to 350+ turbo kit for the 2az.

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

Other than .2 liters and vvti, I want to know what is so much better about this motor. .2liters isn't going to help that much, and the the vvti advantage should be fixable with a set of cams.

[JoKeRkId613]

I have a 2azfe! soon to be 2azfze

the motor is newer, better technology. to be honest, i dunno what makes it much better than the 5sfe. perhaps head design? i know the 2az actually handles quite well under boost. not too sure about the 5s.

[K-ESD]

the trick is, does the trans that fit our mounts, fits the engine?

it did with the 3MZFE

if it does with the 2AZFE, you got yourself a project on your hands

[jdg371]

Rumors has it that the S-Series Trannies will work with the 2AZFE

BTW: Its a AZ series motor.

Z in every Toyota engine usually means.. Great for Supercharger [or has a S/C avail.]

This post has been edited by jdg371: Nov 9, 2006 - 10:33 PM

[Bitter]

also it has some forged internals stock, for example forged rods. the 2azfe is somewhat overbuilt from the factory, probably to handle the TRD supercharger without any longevity problems. that means it could also handle moderate turbo boosting with a good tuning.

[uberschall]

now THIS is what i'm talking about! thanks for all the input so far, keep it coming.

from what i've found so far, the 2A is used in basically the same cars the 5S was--the camry and the "celica" (quotations used b/c i think the tC was intended to replace said car )...this means the intake, etc. should all be in the same/similar locations, the weight should be close, and so on.

i'd really like to know how far off the motor mounts are (although i have a feeling they are right), what the transmission options will mean for axle length and such, and how many wiring changes will be required to make an OBDII engine communicate well with an OBDI chassis.

bigmeanbulldog, i think it is a bigger, better 5sfe, and that's all i've wanted all along! if i were to attempt a swap, n/a would be my weapon of choice for the meantime. but as bitter noted, forged internals point this thing right at forced induction.

the wiring would be the biggest concern, i imagine. i'll pm the good doctor and see what he thinks.

edit- whoa!

This post has been edited by uberschall: Nov 9, 2006 - 11:47 PM

[JoKeRkId613]

i dont think the last statement jdog made is true. the "az" is just the series of the motor.

[Bitter]

i dont think the last statement jdog made is true. the "az" is just the series of the motor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Toyota_engines

the Z denotes that it has some overbuilding to potentially handle a supercharger, it doesnt mean that all Z engines have superchargers, just the capability is there in the engine.

[Kwanza26]

It's just a bigger 5SFE-type motor... but newer and with better technology. "AZ" does NOT denote any overbuilding or anything related to a supercharger. It's simply the engine family code... which many of the later toyota motors have the added 'Z' in the block code (ie: ZZ,AZ,JZ,TZ, MZ, etc). Also... I have opened up this motor before and the internals are not anything special... just typical mass-produced toyota parts. Pistons are basic cast slugs, like 90% of toyota pistons are, and rods are typical design. Also note... ALL stock rods under-go forging to reduce brittleness, but because of manufacturing costs... most all stock rods in all engines are cast. Stock 'press-forged' type rods are far too expensive to produce in mass for mass produced motors like the 2AZ.

To close... IMO, it would make an alright swap engine if you plan on boosting it...

[Bitter]

i thought i read somewhere that the 2azfe came with forged steel rods?

[Kwanza26]

i thought i read somewhere that the 2azfe came with forged steel rods?

Hehe... everything is technically "forged"... which is just a process of heating metal... but 'forged' as in not molded/cast from a master mold... no they aren't. You can tell by tool marks. Cast parts always have tool marks while 'forged' parts do not.

[K-ESD]

now THIS is what i'm talking about! thanks for all the input so far, keep it coming.

from what i've found so far, the 2A is used in basically the same cars the 5S was--the camry and the "celica" (quotations used b/c i think the tC was intended to replace said car )...this means the intake, etc. should all be in the same/similar locations, the weight should be close, and so on.

i'd really like to know how far off the motor mounts are (although i have a feeling they are right), what the transmission options will mean for axle length and such, and how many wiring changes will be required to make an OBDII engine communicate well with an OBDI chassis.

bigmeanbulldog, i think it is a bigger, better 5sfe, and that's all i've wanted all along! if i were to attempt a swap, n/a would be my weapon of choice for the meantime. but as bitter noted, forged internals point this thing right at forced induction.

the wiring would be the biggest concern, i imagine. i'll pm the good doctor and see what he thinks.

edit- whoa!

if you want to dig up more info on the 2AZ, i suggest you look around the tC forums. It will never fit a celica if it doesn't fit our transmissions (S5_ or E-153). Axles are already figured out for you, either use stock axles with the stock trans or go for the e-153+mr2/st185 axle combo.

It's nice to dream and ooooo aaaaa over this engine but it's just fantasy if it can't fit our cars !!!

wiring is NOT a corcern, it's electrical. Anything electrical can be modified to work, how much wiring you will have to do is what you need to determine. I'm 99% sure it's just as much as the 3MZFE i built (since they both come in camrys), wiring was a breeze, i find. You should worry more about mechanical parts that don't fit.

keep digging and good luck

[jdg371]

i dont think the last statement jdog made is true. the "az" is just the series of the motor.

whose jdog? I scrolled up looking for his name and I dont see it

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

I popped the hood on my aunts Camry, and it looks the same as the 5sfe. I thought it was until I noticed the 2400 stamp. If it doesn't bolt right up, it has to be close. Toyota wouldn't just drasticly change things like that.

[Bitter]

i thought i read somewhere that the 2azfe came with forged steel rods?

Hehe... everything is technically "forged"... which is just a process of heating metal... but 'forged' as in not molded/cast from a master mold... no they aren't. You can tell by tool marks. Cast parts always have tool marks while 'forged' parts do not.

i think you have that backwards, a Forged piston is machined from a solid piece of metal, a cast one is cast to the rough shaped and then cut to specs. forged is stronger than cast because the structure of the metal is uniform throughout, theres not casting flow following edges of the pieces.

Forged

and i did mispeak, its the 2RZ-FE with the forged steel rods. R and A look kind of similar sometimes and things got confused.

This post has been edited by Bitter: Nov 10, 2006 - 11:44 AM

[netrata]

This might be a little off topic but hey. I raced a friends Scion TC with TRD supercharger on a close road yesterday. I lost to him like 3 car lengths. Just thought id share.

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

This might be a little off topic but hey. I raced a friends Scion TC with TRD supercharger on a close road yesterday. I lost to him like 3 car lengths. Just thought id share.

Yes, but with a 4age, you looked cooler loosing. lol, I just like the 4age for there potential and light weight. Depending on the length of the race, 3 car lengths isn't bad for about twice the hp advantage of the TC and just a few hundred pounds more.

[macavely]

My TC has 2azfe my gt has 5sfe.. an i have had the pleasure of tearing down an building both engines (2azfe no from my tc) .. so yes the 2az is a better engine just cause the technology.. an the extra .2 litters does help .. an having better engine management system

[Kwanza26]

Hehe... everything is technically "forged"... which is just a process of heating metal... but 'forged' as in not molded/cast from a master mold... no they aren't.

i think you have that backwards, a Forged piston is machined from a solid piece of metal, a cast one is cast to the rough shaped and then cut to specs. forged is stronger than cast because the structure of the metal is uniform throughout, theres not casting flow following edges of the pieces.

Forged

Refer to the bold word. To forge is to basically work hot metal (or even cold metal). When people say 'forged' internals, typically they refer to non-cast parts (forged by shaping)... however ALL engine parts undergo a forging process of heating and cooling to reduce brittleness and/or plasticity of a metal. All I'm saying is... 90% of stock internals are cast in mass... and are not shaped by a forging process... however they do undergo a heating/cooling process (also called forging) to gain the desired brittleness/plasticity. Such is the nature of iron alloys. Cast metals are typically not as strong because of casting flaws and because casting requires metal to become molten, but is easy to mass produce. Like I said before... it's easy to tell which parts are cast parts and which are 'forged' parts by looking at tool marks. This is HIGHLY HIGHLY misunderstood amongst the tuner crowd. 4AGZE pistons are often reffered to as factory forged pistons, when they are actually cast pistons with a heat resistant ceramic coating. 4AGZE rods too, are often reffered to as 'forged'... when they are cast rods identical to all 4AG rods on the 42mm crank (minus the blacktop 20V).

[uberschall]

perhaps we should start using the word machined to describe part of the process...

edit: nevermind

This post has been edited by uberschall: Nov 11, 2006 - 8:12 PM

[saleeka]

Toyota wouldn't just drasticly change things like that.

Yes they would. The S series motor's design development started in the early 80's... They aren't GM, you know...

[JesterDC]

who freaking cares about the definitioin of 'forged' and whether they'd just change things all of the sudden!!! This Topic has some serious potential, so "c'mon guuyys Keeap it Serial!"

[JoKeRkId613]

i dont think the last statement jdog made is true. the "az" is just the series of the motor.

whose jdog? I scrolled up looking for his name and I dont see it

r u serious? i meant jdg. sorry... i thought ud figure it out.

[jdg371]

i dont think the last statement jdog made is true. the "az" is just the series of the motor.

whose jdog? I scrolled up looking for his name and I dont see it

r u serious? i meant jdg. sorry... i thought ud figure it out.

I was bored out of my mind.. LOL

k back to the main topic

[pandakid]

yea i plan to drop 2azfe. it would be street legal in california.

[j0e_p3t]

let me know how you do that. i wanna swap in a couple years and i want it to be totally street legal.

[JoKeRkId613]

yea i plan to drop 2azfe. it would be street legal in california.

ure probably better off getting a tC or camry. for the $4000-$6000 it'll cost you for that swap, you might as well get a brand new car and there will be absolutely no bugs to worry about and everything else will be enw and ull have warranty.

[JesterDC]

yea i plan to drop 2azfe. it would be street legal in california.

ure probably better off getting a tC or camry. for the $4000-$6000 it'll cost you for that swap, you might as well get a brand new car and there will be absolutely no bugs to worry about and everything else will be enw and ull have warranty.

But what fun would that be for him?

Also I was thinking since the 2azfe and 5sfe are looking pretty similar, how hard do you think it'd be to fabricate the TC's TRD s/c kit up to our 5sfe's?

[JoKeRkId613]

very hard

[uberschall]

trust me, joker...if one could acquire a new car for 4-6k this discussion would not be taking place.

half of owning a 6gen in the first place is being different. i for one am sick of seeing b18 hondas, sr20 nissans, yadda yadda. soon enough, without some more initiative being taken to find new and creative swaps and power adders....we're all going to end up like ford vs. chevy: one debate for several decades.

some dude built a rwd v8 5th gen that someone posted a video of not too long ago. as long as people are willing to do the work, anything is possible.

i know somebody is going to argue that it's not a celica anymore, it's too hard, it's too expensive...well, to those people--shut up and make excuses for yourself, not for others.

as for the trd supercharger, it is too expensive. simply from the perspective that for 3 grand you could buy a whole clip that makes more horsepower right out of the chute. if you have 3 grand, you can get a burien turbo kit (iirc).

i want to know about this swap because i have found low mileage 2az's for decent prices...the most expensive i've seen so far was 1700. this is in the same range as many 3sgtes, but is much newer...lower miles, etc. and less initial work (no ic, no oil/water lines, no additional ems, the list goes on).

imo, the engine is a good candidate for a mild boost application (under 10 psi) without any serious bottom end mods, and provided it will bolt up to a s54 or e153...should be a relatively simple job except the electrical.

i am not a toyota expert, and have never worked on a tC. i'd just like to know if it will bolt to a gt trans, if the mounts line up, etc... i can't speak for everyone else, though.

This post has been edited by uberschall: Nov 13, 2006 - 12:24 AM

[pandakid]

the reason i rather get the swap is i can't let go of my celica, love it too much. do the motor mounts like up right or are the off alittle?

[playr158]

outta the box....but you guys are thinking what tranny can we bolt up to it E153/S54?~

why are you even thinking this question at the moment...Tc is FWD and a better tranny try and USE IT

[K-ESD]

why are you even thinking this question at the moment...Tc is FWD and a better tranny try and USE IT

The E-35X is indeed a better tranny but does it share the same mount locations as the E-153 and S54?
thats why the question remains, does the e-153 and s54 bolt up to the motor?

[macavely]

why are you even thinking this question at the moment...Tc is FWD and a better tranny try and USE IT

The E-35X is indeed a better tranny but does it share the same mount locations as the E-153 and S54?
thats why the question remains, does the e-153 and s54 bolt up to the motor?

NO

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

NO

I hate replies like this. At least try to explain what the "NO" is for. The mount locations, or the bolting up to the motor. And why won't it bolt up? Different housing, different shaft, different pattern on the flywheel? Don't be a dick, explain yourself.

[Negative]

woah ease up. This is a good conversation and one me and my friends have been asking since I got my '05 tC. I'd like to know what the answers are before this degenerates further and gets locked.
Tweak?

This post has been edited by Negative: Nov 13, 2006 - 5:49 PM

[macavely]

I'm sorry i thought the NO explained the answer to the question .

mount locations do not match
an the bolt patters did not seam to be the dame.

[Dr_Tweak]

Hey all, sorry it took me so long to get in on this discussion.

Personally, I think that the 2AZFE is a great swap candidate for the Celica, or even the Corolla. The wiring is a non-issue for me, if anyone wants to do this swap just send me the harnesses and I'll return a plug and play harness for $350 plus shipping.

The other major issue is mounting. If the 2AZFE will bolt up to an S-series tranny, then the problem is just about solved, the only issue being the passenger's side mount, which may or may not fit. You would use GT axles.

On the other hand, if it doesn't bolt up, then you're looking at custom mounts and axles. Even so, that's not a big deal considering the engine will fit in the car easily enough and it's a worthy swap (160hp/160tq).

We really just need someone to match the 2AZFE up to an S54 and see if it will work. Or does anyone know what the manual tranny that comes with the 2AZ is called?

-Doc

[uberschall]

the bolt patterns don't seam (sic) to be the same?

that seems to be an unfounded statement. they must be factually different for the statement to mean anything.

the mounts DO NOT have to be exact. they should obviously be close, but the phrase "custom motor mounts" is not a fantasy term referring to mystical devices contrived by faeries and delivered by unicorns. if there are slight discrepancies between the mount locations, a skilled shop guy could fab a set of custom mounts pretty easily. this is not really a big deal.

the transmissions, however...do present a larger, but not necessarily unsolvable issue. if the 2AZ does have the same main bolt pattern as an S54 or E153 trans, life is good. if not, the E35 from the scion would have to be used, maybe requiring a little more fab work for mounts, and possibly some axle magic.

ultimately, you could put a caterpillar diesel in a celica, it would just require more work, more money, and more time. nobody has asked about something that ludicrous and thus, a highly negative response is unnecessary.

we're talking about the possibility of an inline four-cylinder toyota engine from a late-model, fwd application being installed in an older toyota inline four-cylinder, fwd vehicle.



edit: whoa, thanks tweak! missed your post while i got a beverage.

This post has been edited by uberschall: Nov 13, 2006 - 6:15 PM

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

How about the cost of the 2azfe? Is it easy to get ahold of one of them? They come in the Solars, Camrys, and TCs, right? About the transmission thing, if we can find out what kind of auto came on the Camrys and Solars when they first swapped into these motors, and if it's different from the most recent auto's in the Camrys with 5sfes, we'll have the answer.

EDIT: Sorry Mac, I got a little carried away there.

This post has been edited by Bigmeanbulldog55: Nov 13, 2006 - 6:50 PM

[playr158]

http://www.scionlife.com/tech/parts/image....=tc05_1_H04.gif
http://www.scionlife.com/tech/parts/image....=tc05_1_G04.gif

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

http://www.scionlife.com/tech/parts/image....=tc05_1_H04.gif
http://www.scionlife.com/tech/parts/image....=tc05_1_G04.gif

Links don't work

[JesterDC]

http://www.scionlife.com/tech/parts/image....=tc05_1_H04.gif
http://www.scionlife.com/tech/parts/image....=tc05_1_G04.gif

Links don't work

They work for me

[K-ESD]

We really just need someone to match the 2AZFE up to an S54 and see if it will work. Or does anyone know what the manual tranny that comes with the 2AZ is called?

-Doc

EDIT: The tranny is a E-350
camry has a E-351 with a longer 5ht gear and final drive

This post has been edited by K-ESD: Nov 13, 2006 - 9:59 PM

[Dr_Tweak]

Since the tranny is an E-series, then mounting it would be similar, if not identical, to using a E153 with a 3SGTE swap.

I think that the main issue with this swap is that with the 3SGTE so readily available and so relatively easy to swap into the Celica, why would one bother? The 3SGTE has been, and remains to be, the NUMBER ONE BEST Toyota 4-cylinder engine, EVER. Why go anywhere else?

Of course, if someone actually wants a 2AZFE, I'd be more than happy to swap it in, but that's just because I'm such a nice guy

-Doc

[K-ESD]

Since the tranny is an E-series, then mounting it would be similar, if not identical, to using a E153 with a 3SGTE swap.

I think that the main issue with this swap is that with the 3SGTE so readily available and so relatively easy to swap into the Celica, why would one bother? The 3SGTE has been, and remains to be, the NUMBER ONE BEST Toyota 4-cylinder engine, EVER. Why go anywhere else?

Of course, if someone actually wants a 2AZFE, I'd be more than happy to swap it in, but that's just because I'm such a nice guy

-Doc

Be even nicer and drop in a V6 instead

[K-ESD]

I'm sorry i thought the NO explained the answer to the question .

mount locations do not match
an the bolt patters did not seam to be the dame.

from looking into the scion forums, i found no evidence of our tranny bolting to the AZ block nor mounts matching. I guess your right.

This 2AZ idea is starting to look non feasable.

[playr158]

don't be so narrow cause you can't slap on a tranny...oh noes!
its not too hard to relocate a tranny mount if need be

i mean your swapping a motor and your saying no because of a tranny mount?

do more research

[XS4lv1Truch0x]

anything is feasable.

if they shoved a v8 in a 5gc than we can put a 2azfe in a celica.

its all in the money my friend if you are serious and determined than it can be done.

non feasable is just a word.

[uberschall]

i've only started to understand toyotas transmission codes because of the searching i've done about this swap, but according to dr. tweak, the e-series in the camry and tc should mount similarly to the e153. this is good news.

after some thought, the s54 wouldn't make very good use of the extra power anyway...so using the tc's transmission would be a pretty good idea.

so we are approaching the ideal:

2AZFE engine
E350 trans

this leaves:

axles
diff options (is there an lsd in an e-series that would fit?)
engine managment (vvti ecu from tc, standalone?)

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

I don't think the non-fesiable should be talked about. The question is, is it pratical? Prices on 3rd and 4th gean 3sgte's, and TC clips with trannies and mounting costs. For me, it would be a question of 3rd gen 3sge or 2azfe. And the 3sge has it beat. But, the 2zafe has a lot better aftermarket. But how much aftermarket do you really need? I can get a good port polish for any car. As well as custom bottem end, manifolds, exhaust, EMS modifications.

[K-ESD]

don't be so narrow cause you can't slap on a tranny...oh noes!
its not too hard to relocate a tranny mount if need be

i mean your swapping a motor and your saying no because of a tranny mount?

do more research

thats exactly what i'm saying, research won't prepare you for when you cut the **** out of a celi, weld in some mounts then because of that something interferes with something or axles don't fit, shifter cables don't reach, stuff doesn't line up and one thing f-cks up annother and everything becomes one big as-s disaster.
This isn't body work where every part is passive , this is high profile mecanical engineering
Yeah sure you "can" make it work but by that time you're getting into a franken swap type of job and you might as well put a jet engine connected to your rear wheels.... only with a 2AZ you'd have 25HP more, still FWD, still a 4 banger. (not putting the 2AZ down, just pointing out that if you're about to do a monster garage type of swap, might as well get something better)

A "feasable" swap is something that can be done with little or no modification to a car.
This is NOT feasable, unless someone comes up with clear and accurate information about the bolt patern AND mount locations and in the case of mounts not fitting, XYZ dimensions, axle lengths, axle splines at both ends -does the E-35 axles fit our hub.... maybe, but probly not, even if they do they are most likely not the right length. so custom axles, custom tranny/motor mount, custom shifter cables, custom misc. part that didn't fit... get my drift?

It's never been done and the foundation for this swap is not looking very solid (speaking of information/research material)

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

A swap is something that can fit. Sure, there are alot of guys out there that can't do that custom work, but they're more likely to have someone else do the swap for them. So, it doesn't really matter what they know. All that really matters is that Dr. Tweak is willing to do it, and someone is willing to pay. After that, we'll have proof it will work. It only takes one till you have this "clear and accurate information." If I really wanted, I could get a wrecked TC and cram it in my car. It isn't something I want to do, so there isn't much chance in that happening. I still think their are some better swaps, but the 2zafe definately has the better aftermarket. It'll pick up in numbers, and the 3sge with go down. That'll make the 2zafe cheaper, and the 3sge more expensive. Got to be ready for it when that happens.

[Kwanza26]

who freaking cares about the definitioin of 'forged' and whether they'd just change things all of the sudden!!! This Topic has some serious potential, so "c'mon guuyys Keeap it Serial!"

Uhem... learn to spell. Just so you realize there is a big difference between a discussion of "possibility" and a discussion "probability".

thats exactly what i'm saying, research won't prepare you for when you cut the **** out of a celi, weld in some mounts then because of that something interferes with something or axles don't fit, shifter cables don't reach, stuff doesn't line up and one thing f-cks up annother and everything becomes one big as-s disaster.
This isn't body work where every part is passive , this is high profile mecanical engineering
Yeah sure you "can" make it work but by that time you're getting into a franken swap type of job and you might as well put a jet engine connected to your rear wheels.... only with a 2AZ you'd have 25HP more, still FWD, still a 4 banger. (not putting the 2AZ down, just pointing out that if you're about to do a monster garage type of swap, might as well get something better)

You sound like I did when you and others started dreaming about V6 swaps (except everyone else kept dreaming and you actually did it)... Experience sure does change things huh?

Ok... it's a 160hp engine 160 ftlbs of torque... 2.4 liter econo engine. I fail to see the point behind all of that custom work for a marginally better performing motor over the 5SFE... but hey... that's just me. I think all of those who have NOT done swaps... should just shut up and quit speculating. Like I told k-esd back when he was talking about a V6 swap... shut up and go do it. If you're gonna do it... do it. People don't care about 'wanting to do it'... Hell... people want a lot of things, however this is uncharted waters. Are you gonna ask hoping for a path to be made, or make the path?

Personally speaking... I would NOT even bother with this swap. The engine is new and expensive... TC's are fairly cheap cars... they look nice, handle every bit as good as a 6gc, they have the amenities, the aftermarket support, and in this case, which suddenly seems to be so debate-able, they have the 2AZ. Why not spend all of that money and buy the damn car instead? Don't give me none of that crap about 'originality' and 'uniqueness' or whatever. "unique" would be swaping in a motor that actually has performance value... not an updated version of the 5SFE. To think I originally hated (and still do to some degree) toyota/scion for putting the 2AZFE in the TC... heh

This post has been edited by Kwanza26: Nov 14, 2006 - 11:19 AM

[pandakid]

I have a 2azfe! soon to be 2azfze

the motor is newer, better technology. to be honest, i dunno what makes it much better than the 5sfe. perhaps head design? i know the 2az actually handles quite well under boost. not too sure about the 5s.

got any pictures?

[K-ESD]

On topic now, I think you guys sound rather lame. If you wanna do it... shut up and go do it. Talking about it isn't gonna do anything.

words of a wize man

Thanks Kwanza26



(notice quote date)

This post has been edited by K-ESD: Nov 14, 2006 - 10:11 PM

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

On topic now, I think you guys sound rather lame. If you wanna do it... shut up and go do it. Talking about it isn't gonna do anything.

words of a wize man

Kwanza is a smart guy, and definately knows his stuff. But when he says stuff like that, it just makes him look like a jerk. Yeah, it's true, if you really want to do it, then do it. But you've got to have fun talking about it and seeing if it's even possible by whatever your standards are. Be happy Kwanza, I hope you get your passion for cars back.

[uberschall]

i definately did not mean to get anybdy riled up about the whole thing.

the engine in my car will be pretty much done in 20k, period. it will need to be replaced or rebuilt. end of story. so sometime in the middle of next year, there will be the opportunity for me to replace the engine with more of the same, or something "better."

i have spent ALOT of time compling information about the swaps people have, what other parts they have with them (turbo, ems, etc.) to try and figure out what is going to be the best. there are alot of options, and i'm still trying to find the right one for me.

the few things i want:

1. decent fuel economy (regular gas is a plus)
2. ease of maintenance (i don't want to be fighting sparkplugs from the firewall side of a v6, etc.) and parts availability (i would like to be able to stop at a murrays and get regular maintenance parts if needed, like a timing belt, for example)
3. minimal fringe expenditures (i don't want to spend a bunch of extra money to rebuild a turbo, etc. i don't need to be constantly throwing money at it when i'm done, either)
4. reasonable entry cost. a blacktop 3sge would be my first choice if money weren't an issue. i would like to keep the clip around $2k if possible.

i'm not interested in more that 200 hp or so. the primary goal is a daily driven tsm-class autocross car. the reason the 2azfe interested me is that it's got alot more torque than a 5sfe, and a little more horsepower. it runs on regular unleaded, has an aftermarket that is growing exponentially, and is very new. by very new, i mean that you can buy a clean low mileage motor domestically for under 2k.

i'm wary of a 3sgte swap because the engines available domestically are either 15 years old or rwd, and they tend to be high mileage. i'm also uncomfortable with buying an engine from japan. i know that alot of people stand by the quality of the imported ones, but i just don't like the idea. you have to wonder why they would be selling them here. you'd think that if the 3stge was the best engine toyota ever made, the japanese public would buy every last one of them. the only ways they'd end up here are if there's a reason they don't want them in japan, or they're laughing all the way to the bank on how much we'll pay for them because they're worth so much less there.

on top of that, it's kind of hard to argue any issues that could come up with a clip when you've paid a sh*tload of money just to get it here. if i can get a totalled and mostly parted tc for a few grand, i'd be thrilled to pull the engine, trans, harness, and ecu myself. hell, there's alot of money to be made in breaking cars, i could recoup alot of money by buying one nearly complete and parting myself.

i'm not going to argue that the 3sgte isn't a great engine--it absolutely is. but in order to do the swap RIGHT, it's alot of money on a good intercooler, additional engine management, turbo, bov, wg, etc.....none of which is necessary for an n/a swap. yes, it's more horsepower, but there is no doubt in my mind that i could build a 2azfe that would put down 175, which is enough for me. when i get a 350 hp car, it's not going to be fwd, period.

if anybody thinks that i would "just do it" they can get buggered. everyone that does a swap does some research first. i am of the mind that it's stupid to just buy a clip and hope i can get things to fit. right now, it's pretty much down to this, 3sgte or 5sfte. i'm actually still planning on a 5sfte, but i'm also weighing the other options carefully because i'm NOT going to do this twice.

talking about it IS going to do something. if enough people with valuable input contribute, i'll scratch this one off the list, too. i would never have asked if it were a simple "do it" kind of thing.

thanks to everyone that has contributed alot of useful information, specifically k-esd, bigmeanbulldog, kwanza, and tweak.

i appreciate everybody's opinions even if i don't agree.

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

^^Sounds like you need a 5sfe or 5sfte. I think you could get 200lbs-ft of torque from a 5sfe NA, and something like 170hp. With a turbo, it's upwards of 400-500hp. But, it's cost/benifit. A nice NA 5sfe would be great for autocross. That's what I'll build if I decided to get out of the STS class.

More 2zafe talk, less debate on why we should be talking about it.

[uberschall]

word. happy to oblige.

[K-ESD]

the few things i want:

1. decent fuel economy (regular gas is a plus)
2. ease of maintenance (i don't want to be fighting sparkplugs from the firewall side of a v6, etc.) and parts availability (i would like to be able to stop at a murrays and get regular maintenance parts if needed, like a timing belt, for example)
3. minimal fringe expenditures (i don't want to spend a bunch of extra money to rebuild a turbo, etc. i don't need to be constantly throwing money at it when i'm done, either)
4. reasonable entry cost. a blacktop 3sge would be my first choice if money weren't an issue. i would like to keep the clip around $2k if possible.

i'm not interested in more that 200 hp or so. the primary goal is a daily driven tsm-class autocross car. the reason the 2azfe interested me is that it's got alot more torque than a 5sfe, and a little more horsepower. it runs on regular unleaded, has an aftermarket that is growing exponentially, and is very new. by very new, i mean that you can buy a clean low mileage motor domestically for under 2k.

This has V6 writen all over it, well... except maybe where you shun the V6 with spark plug accessibility

a picture is worth a thousand words

this is what you'd be looking at from the side


This picture shows the clearance between the intake manifold and the rear head


Changing the spark plugs on the V6 is a breeze, easily accessible unless you're 4 ft tall and it only takes 1/2 more the time of changine spark plugs on a 5SFE.

I have to admit swapping a V6 is much more complex than a 3SGTE but you get all the advantages with nearly no disavantages. And guess what, it's been done before !! so that means 2 things for you, 1 it's possible (or probable I should say), 2 there's acutal information specificly about swapping a MZ motor into a celica.... only bad part is most of it is stuck in my head and i'm too lazy to type it ALL down, however I will answer all questions that are asked to me. So there is still research to do to know those questions.

That aside, you're on the right track with your project. There is plenty of choice for engines out there, make a (realistic) decision based on what YOU want. Unless proven otherwize, the 2AZFE is not a good candidate


________________________________________________________________________________________

Off topic

Kwanza26 may sound like a jerk but he is far from being one. A real jerk would plain and simply have no value in his words. Every word Kwanza26 says can be taken as good information... if it sounds like an insult, it's probably true ! Take it as constructive critisism.
I know what is meant tho, at first I didn't like the guy but I came to realize, he's willing to get into details about explaining things and devoting a good amount of time to write all about it. That shows his good will.

no time to finish, gtg to work

[SinisterWhisper]

I have to say I don't see the value in the engine for us. It would be alot of custom work for what? You could drop in a beams if you want n/a and a four banger or just go v6. It would be cool to see, but for the amount of work I think you'd be better off with another engine.

[uberschall]

props to everyone with a v6 swap...looks like it's a great option. but could you add a turbo or supercharger easily? i'm not saying you want/need to, or that i would end up wanting more power than that, but anyone can tell you...the more power you have...the more you want.

it's really starting to seem that the general consensus on the 2AZFE is "no."

i thought so to begin with, i just needed to be convinced.

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

props to everyone with a v6 swap...looks like it's a great option. but could you add a turbo or supercharger easily? i'm not saying you want/need to, or that i would end up wanting more power than that, but anyone can tell you...the more power you have...the more you want.

it's really starting to seem that the general consensus on the 2AZFE is "no."

i thought so to begin with, i just needed to be convinced.

That was the same general consensus when people talked about the 3mzfe in the Celica. "Why go with a heavy V6 that is hard to work on when you have a proven power plant of a 3sgte?" Those who have done it to Celica's and MR2's are more than happy with them. You can turbo or supercharge the V6 motors, they make a tone of power. I think this swap will be put on hold until someone with money decides they want to do it and does it. Then they'll come on here talking about the big improvement in power and actual less weight, and everyone will tell them how awsome that is. There are way to many drag racers on here for a Celica site. And they'll bash on little NA motors that can't make the "peak" hp that a 3sgte can. If I could get away with swapping that motor, it would be great. Still no better than the 3-4th gen 3sge, but cool. The light weight and power potential is there. Aftermarket is great. What more needs to be known about this motor before it's a canidate for swapping? It would possibly be more reliable than a 3sge as well.

[K-ESD]

props to everyone with a v6 swap...looks like it's a great option. but could you add a turbo or supercharger easily? i'm not saying you want/need to, or that i would end up wanting more power than that, but anyone can tell you...the more power you have...the more you want.

it's really starting to seem that the general consensus on the 2AZFE is "no."

i thought so to begin with, i just needed to be convinced.

That was the same general consensus when people talked about the 3mzfe in the Celica. "Why go with a heavy V6 that is hard to work on when you have a proven power plant of a 3sgte?" Those who have done it to Celica's and MR2's are more than happy with them. You can turbo or supercharge the V6 motors, they make a tone of power. I think this swap will be put on hold until someone with money decides they want to do it and does it. Then they'll come on here talking about the big improvement in power and actual less weight, and everyone will tell them how awsome that is. There are way to many drag racers on here for a Celica site. And they'll bash on little NA motors that can't make the "peak" hp that a 3sgte can. If I could get away with swapping that motor, it would be great. Still no better than the 3-4th gen 3sge, but cool. The light weight and power potential is there. Aftermarket is great. What more needs to be known about this motor before it's a canidate for swapping? It would possibly be more reliable than a 3sge as well.

The V6 could be turbo'd and maybe supercharged depending if the blower fits in the bay with the hood closed. Turbo-ing is more realistic tho, sure to fit. (hint: turbo goes over the tranny, both manifolds join there). however if one plans to do turbo V6, they should go for a VZ motor (3VZFE or 5VZFE)

FYI a 3MZFE is ~60lbs heavier than a 5SFE and it's lighter than a 3SGTE by ~80-100lbs

aluminium alloy vs. cast iron + all turbo components


This post has been edited by K-ESD: Nov 15, 2006 - 4:50 PM

[ILoveMySilly97]

THREAD REVIVE! Has any 6gc done this swap yet? I know MR2 has been done.

[Smaay]

im not aware of anyone doing this swap, I dont see any reason it cant be done fairly easily. If it mates up to the S54 then you have 3 of 4 mounts done. The drivers side mount I can build im sure.

the 2AZ is a good engine. its very boost friendly and dual VVT. I believe it makes about 180-190 HP and fairly torquey so its an improvement from the 2ZZ right off the bat.

If anyone in So, Cal want to accomplish this, Ill make you an awesome deal on the labor, Id like to see what it really makes.

[Celicaguy13]

Smaay. You're thinking of the 2AR-FE. That is available in the TC2 and Newer camry's. The 2AR is the motor Gouky put in his MKI. The 2az is a single vvti motor with 162hp and typically dynos around 140+ with mods. It is a turbo friendly motor.

I believe the 2az will bolt onto the s54/e153. However those motors are more expensive than a v6 and make less power. So it's hard to justify that swap. But if your heart wants it. Go for it.

As far as making it CA legal. It's more difficult to do it but possible. You will need to convert to drive by wire. Have the evap pressure sensor at the tank I believe. You have to get 2 catalytic converters. The manifold one you typically have to purchase separate from the engine plus you need to purchase the downstream one. SO you're looking at about $1000+ just in converters. There are more things but still... Possible. V6 is cheaper and simpler and more power!

This post has been edited by Celicaguy13: Oct 14, 2014 - 11:18 AM

[Smaay]

^^^^ Ah yes, you are correct good sir

[njccmd2002]

for all of you, not (not, not, not) in california. Once the 2grs drop price. it will be very fun to do..... Sorry california, unless you get a manual ecu from factory..... which only lotus have....

[Special_Edy]

2AZ-FE is not a performance motor, it's built for torque.
The bore/stroke is under square, the head and intake and designed with long runners. It has an impressive torque curve but it was not designed to produce horsepower.

Definitely would make your 6gc quite peppy. Not as broad a torque curve as the 1mz, but definitely more low end than the other 4 cylinder engine choices. VVT-i somewhat improves the top end performance given how seriously compromised the engine is, but the torque starts to drop off over 4000 rpm. The 3S(beams, GTE) motor's torque curves don't drop off till well past 6000rpm.
Idle to 4000 is where the 2az will really shine.

[Bitter]

The 1/2AR would be a more interesting swap, or the ZR series even have some neat engines. None are built for performance but with the relative light weight of the 6GC and spacious engine bay to work with they could be fun.

[Syaoran]

2AZ is cheap now, compared to when this thread was made. It's also plentiful.

I read "2AZ will not make power" but personally I've been in 2AZ turbo Scion tC's with 12-14psi of boost from a Big 16g pushing 320whp, running on a piggyback ECU as well lol.

No way in hell a 3SGTE or a 5SFE will produce that kind of power with that turbo at that boost level. It's simply a newer, better designed (than the 5SFE and probably better than the 3SGTE old gens) and more readily available engine.

However nobody has ever tried swapping it into a 6GC, which is a pity. If I had the funds I would go ahead and try fitting the engine and transmission for a tC in there. The mounts for the transmission (front and rear) look similar to what the s54 mounts look like, so I'm willing to bet it could be put in with some modification.

[Bitter]

Just don't get one with the head bolts that strip. That's why most are in the yards for cheap....

[Syaoran]

Fixing a few threads and then studding the block shouldn't be much of an inconvenience.

[Bitter]

No, as long as the rest of the engine wasn't damaged when the bolts failed and the car was junked. Usually the first sign of trouble sheeple see with their Camry is it's over heating due to having no coolant in the engine anymore. Warped head, cracked head, warped block, warped bores, etc. Engine needs to be checked out well before you bother fixing the threads and installing studs and then bolting a turbo on it so it's not wasted time and money.