3sgte engine in car. now wont start! Options

[toyotacrazy]

I started my swap last night! Got the engine out and the 3sgte mounted onto the 5s-fe trans. within about 4 hours. The motor mount next to the timing cover had to be modified to fit correctly. Ive heard before its a direct fit for the 5s-fe motor mounts. Its not! Only one bolt lines up without modifications. I took the mount to the grinding wheel and managed to make it fit well. If anybody wants pics give me your e-mail and Ill send you some pics of the mount. Hope this will better prepare some of the future swappers! later-
-toyotacrazy

This post has been edited by toyotacrazy: Dec 9, 2006 - 11:06 AM

[hitcachi]

actually its pretty common knowledge that the passenger side mount has to be modified if you use 5s-fe mounts. But who researches these days anyway? Pics of progress? What year 3S?

[lagos]

take off your motor mount bracket from your 5sfe, and bolt it to the 3sgte. this way all bolts will line up correctly.

[toyotacrazy]

Its a 95 gt celica body and a 1991 celica alltrac engine with the gt transmission. I ended up using the 5s-fe mount that attatches to the engine. I spent about 20 minutes grinding it away. I did a TON of researching but I was under the impression that the gt motor mounts was a direct fit, and the st celica mounts had to be modified. Oh well, I figured it out. Ill put a pic of the mount on my profile. I dont know how to link my pics to this site any other way. They are on my computer. I can e-mail them though. Well back out to the cold garage. Later............
-toyotacrazy

[celicaST]

I dont know how to link my pics to this site any other way.

use www.imageshack.us, upload it there. after you host it, copy the "direct link to image" url. click the "insert image" button (the tree) when posting and paste the image url you just copied when prompted. preview your post to make sure it worked. hope that helps.

[toyotacrazy]

I got the swap all put together. It wont start! The ecm has code 12 no NE signal. I did some checks, Any Ideas? Thanks

[phattyduck]

I got the swap all put together. It wont start! The ecm has code 12 no NE signal. I did some checks, but its 2:15 A.M. And Im gonna have to worry about this in a few hours. Any Ideas? Thanks

Recheck ALL plugs. Almost everyone that does a swap has one plug unplugged on the first turn of the key. In this case, its one of the signals from the distributor that is missing. Good luck!

-Charlie

[lagos]

who did your harness?

This post has been edited by lagos: Dec 11, 2006 - 1:24 AM

[toyotacrazy]

I did the harness. There 12 volts going to the fuel injector resistor, and no power going to the igniter or coil. But when I put direct power to the coil + it still wont start. I'll have to cut into the harness more tonight.

[jcbass7]

I got the swap all put together. It wont start! The ecm has code 12 no NE signal. I did some checks, Any Ideas? Thanks

No NE signal? whats NE.
mine threw a few codes when i had just dropped it in. Does it crank over at all?

give us some more symptomes of what it does when you try to start etc.

mine would crank but never fire... ( i had two plugs in the wrong spot on the harness)

[toyotacrazy]

I got the swap all put together. It wont start! The ecm has code 12 no NE signal. I did some checks, Any Ideas? Thanks

No NE signal? whats NE.
mine threw a few codes when i had just dropped it in. Does it crank over at all?

give us some more symptomes of what it does when you try to start etc.

mine would crank but never fire... ( i had two plugs in the wrong spot on the harness)

It cranks over fine. The ne or g signal communicates from the distributor to the ecm. I have no power to the coil or ignitor but have b+ to the fuel injhector resistor.

[jcbass7]

are you getting a code for your engine coolant temp? or is that fine?

[toyotacrazy]

nope, just the code 12 = ne or g signal from distributor

[hitcachi]

who did your wiring?

[Defgeph]

I merged all your topics.
Please keep all you questions about your swap in this thread. We can help you better if all your questions are in one thread and not scattered in the FI forum.

Since you did your own harness what sources, diagrams did you use to get the wiring done ? Maybe something you used was outdated with old information ?

[toyotacrazy]

I got the ewd from the tis (toyota/information/system) at work. It should be up to date as anywhere else. Im thinking that I maybe put two wires together temperarily and forgot to solder them. Maybe they came apart. I checked all the wires for continuity several times. I am not getting any power to the coil or the igniter. I also took the distributor cap off and found quite a bit of corrosion. The rotor button has some small cracks in it. I ordered these today. Ill probably tear into the harness after work. Thanks!

[lagos]

the coil and igniter get their power from a thick black/orange wire that gets spliced into our fuse box. track that down, and make sure you hooked it up right.

[Dr_Tweak]

How did you do the wiring and which ECU are you using?

-Doc

[toyotacrazy]

Im using a gen. 2 ecu from a 91 celica all trac jdm.
With the wiring, I started by taking a junk yard fuse block from a 95 celica and marked all the wires. Then I split open the 3sgte harness and found what everything was and marked it. Then I just figured out what the engine needs to run and hooked them together. All my gauges seem to work fine.
It cranks over and I can smell fuel. I did however find out that the coil and igniter werent recieving and power, but the fuel injector resistor had 12 volts. So I tore into the harness until I found the problem. I forgot to connect the thick wire black/orange to the coil and igniter. So I did this and made sure I now have power to both. I carefully connected everything back up. I tried to start it but still it acts like it has no spark. It doesnt even try to start. Ive got a distributor cap and rotor comming tomorrow from toyota. I doubt this will fix it, but the button and cap looked pretty crappy when I took them out. The rotor had some small cracks in it. I still have the code 12 for the NE or G signal to the distributor. I hope this all makes sense to someone. This is so frustrating! Thanks guys!

[trdproven]

I don't mean to just throw in a question here and ruin the flow but so it is possible to throw in a 3sgte onto a 5sfe tranny? It can handle it well, or not optimal? Second, what was done to use only the front transmission, do you block off the axle that controls the rear wheels because of the front wheel drive tranny?

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

He is using the 5SFE's S54 transmission. Not a modified All-Trac trans thats converted to FWD.....I wouldn't reccomend that anyway, as the 5SFE trans is more than capable to handle a stock to moderately built 3SGTE and yes, it bolts right up. Doing a search will provide you with all the info you need regarding this matter.


Back on topic....Lets try to figure out why this motor won't run.

Art, didn't you mention something once about EFI and ignitor/spark being all controlled through the EFI fuse? I believe you said something about tapping into the fuse for 12v for the A/C and that you realized that the EFI is correlated with the WHOLE fuel delivery, spark, igniter process.....hence EFI, I suppose. Perhaps something was accidentally mis-wired with the EFI in the harness or perhaps it would be worth it to check out the fuse itself too....?

I would check the ignition system component by component from beginning to end to see where/if continuity is broken as well as ensuring every part functions. If not, its either a bad part or bad wiring....plain and simple.

[lagos]

yeah, its all tied into the fuse box. this was his original problem, but it should be fixed since he wired in the black/orange wire.

code 12 is:
12 - RPM No "G" signal to ECU for 2 sec after crank Starting related, check distributor, starter

make sure you plugged in the harness plug to the back of your distributor. then try the new cap and rotor and see where you stand.

[toyotacrazy]

Im still waiting for the button to arrive. I checked that the coil is recieving 12 volts and used the other wire on the connector as a ground. It had 12.7 volts. I still have no spark. So I checked the wires going from the igniter to the distributor for continuity. They are connected ok. So Im thinking its either the coil, coil wire to cap, igniter, or ecm. Im also pondering if it could be the distributor since thats directly related to the code and its not allowing the ecm to work for the ignition system. But if Im getting 12 volts to the coil, Doesnt this mean that the igniter and ecm are doing there job? Anyways I am going to replace the cap and button. I also bought a coil and igniter on ebay for $47.00 shipped. I guess Ill know more when I replace all this. Im so anxious to get this beast on the road! Ill keep you all posted. Thanks for the feedback!
-toyotacrazy

[toyotacrazy]

Ok guys, If anyone has any suggestions I would really appriciate it. My car still wont start. I dont know what to do other than try a new ecm. Ive been over most of the related harness for the distributor, ignition system, ecm b+, ecm ground, engine grounds, continuity and voltage drops on all the above except grounds of course. Im getting fuel, but got no spark what so ever. It cranks and I smell fuel. The only code is 12 for distributor Everything is plugged in and Ive checked pin fit too. I replaced the coil, distributor and ignitor with used parts. I also put a dist. cap and button on it. Still no change. Ive also checked the starter circuit and assured that I have B+ to the STA to the ecm when cranking.
Im wondering if the coil wires black/orange wire is the B+. The other coil wire is white/blue, now is that ground or should that wire be B+ during cranking and the ground be through the distributor and to the spark plugs????? This is the only thing I can figure that is maybe wrong. I hook the two coil wires to an ohm meter and turn on the key, It shows batt. voltage. So this means that the black/orange is B+ and the white/blue is ground. Maybe the white/blue wire should be B+ also to supply the coil. I donno anymore. Im just extremely frustrated!!!!
Any help would be greatly appriciated. Thanks in advance guys!!!

[lagos]

Im wondering if the coil wires black/orange wire is the B+. The other coil wire is white/blue, now is that ground or should that wire be B+ during cranking

the black/orange wire is B+. the white/blue wire is also B+, but it sends the voltage FROM the coil, to the igniter. if you unwrap your harness, youll see that the white/blue wire just goes from the coil right to the igniter.

when you test the coil plug, you should get 12v from the black/orange wire, and nothing from the white/blue when the plug is disconnected.

then plug the coil back in, and start testing the igniter plug. you should have 12v at the white/blue that came from the coil. post what voltages you get from each of the igniter wires (with the coil plugged in and the key in the ON position, but NOT cranking).

This post has been edited by lagos: Dec 26, 2006 - 2:35 AM

[toyotacrazy]

I got 12v at the black/orange wire on the coil with the 2 pin connector disconnected. I have nothing from the white/blue. When I connect the 2 pin coil connector, and unplug the igniter I have

black=nothing
black/yellow=5v
white=nothing
black/orange=12v
white/light blue=12v

This is with the key on and ecm connected. But the distributor and some various connectors not connected. I did manage to find a ecm ohm chart. So tomorrow Ill take the ecm to work and check it. Thanks for the input!

[Dr_Tweak]

Sorry I didn't get back to you on this sooner. What is the part number on your ECU, and which harness do you have, the one matching the '91 ECU pinout or the one matching the '92 ECU pinout?

-Doc

[toyotacrazy]

Sorry I didn't get back to you on this sooner. What is the part number on your ECU, and which harness do you have, the one matching the '91 ECU pinout or the one matching the '92 ECU pinout?

-Doc

Hey man,
The part number on the ecu for the 3sgte is 89661-2B280. It came together from japan with the complete uncut harness. Ive been told the harness and ecu is out of a 1991 alltrac JDM. Ive been using the 1991 alltrac ewd. I'm pretty sure I have a bad ecm here. Ive been over the harness many times and I have power to the coil. The car is throwing a code 12 for distributor signal. If you read through this topic it may answer this in more detail. I really appriciate any help you can give me. You guys on 6gc are the only source I have for help in my situation. Nobody at work gives a crap enough to help me diag. my problem. So again thank you! I am trying to find an ecm that will just plug into my harness without me repinning any connectors if possible. Even if its temporary. I just want to know if the harness is correct and what my problem is. If I cant find an exact match ecu, I suppose I'll just buy whatever I can get my hands on. If you need more detail please just ask. Thanks!

[Dr_Tweak]

Okay well that's your problem right there, that ECU is for the '92 and up so you need to rewire the harness for the '92 and up pinout if it isn't correct. Confirm which harness you have by comparing the wire colors on the pinout diagram with the connectors. For example, Pin 1 on the large 26-pin connector should be Light Green for the '92, and Yellow for the '91.

A bad ECU will generally not give you a CEL at all. Generally.

-Doc

This post has been edited by Dr_Tweak: Dec 27, 2006 - 7:45 PM

[toyotacrazy]

omg. I hope your right. Ill look into it and get back to you. thanks!

[toyotacrazy]

Ok, I think I got this figured out. Here it goes....
I believe the ecm was just thrown with the swap later and the original ecu was left with the car or something. Because I have a 89661-2B280 ecm. Ive been wiring the car for a 1991 celica all trac. All the connectors and wires for the 1991 match up. Even the ones that I didnt repin for the distributor ect. were correctly corrosponding with the 1991 ewd. So I found an ecm part# 89661-20751. In my little theory I should be able to buy this ecm and plug it right in and be ok. Does this sound right to you? Thanks.

Thanks to lagos:

JDM 185 ecu's-
89661-20750=89/10-90/03(superceeded to 20751)
89661-20751=90/03-91/08
89661-2b310=91/08-92/02
89661-2b280=91/08-93/09

[Dr_Tweak]

Yeap, that's exactly right. I've had the same thing happen to me before, that's how I knew after reading the thread over, reading what you did, and then seeing the mysterious code 12 it rang a bell right away.

20751 is the one you want, yes. By the way, the 89661-17321 will also work for you, that's the MR2 version which works just fine.

In my case, I just repinned the connectors and used the ECU that they sent me, it only took a few hours.

-Doc

This post has been edited by Dr_Tweak: Dec 27, 2006 - 9:33 PM

[toyotacrazy]

Thats awsome. I cant believe the same thing happened to you. CRAZY! I think Im going to buy the other ecm and sell the one I have. I just am overwhelmed at this point and want my celica back! I also dont have much spare time and its now cold in the garage. Thank you very much!

[Dr_Tweak]

It seems that every swap I do, I run into some new problem that I've never seen before. But every time that I figure it out, I'm better equipped for the next swap. I figure maybe someday I'll have all the answers to all the problems

I'm glad I could help. Let me know if you need anything else.

-Doc

[phattyduck]

I figure maybe someday I'll have all the answers to all the problems

-Charlie

[toyotacrazy]

It runs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I got it up and running. The correct ecu did the trick! Just working out the bugs now.....It idles high until I pinch off the large hose on the drivers side of the intake manifold. Then it goes down to normal idle. I think that hose goes to the wastegate. I gotta get a better look at it. At least it runs. Thanks all!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kadett]

Congrats

[Dr_Tweak]

Excellent, I'm glad that we figured out your problem! Take a pic of that vacuum line and we should be able to tell you where it goes.

-Doc

[toyotacrazy]

Ill get the pic on later. I posted another page with my boost issue. Im only boosting to 6-7 psi. If I pinch off the vac hose going to the turbo it boosts until fuel cut. ~14 psi. Is that normal?

[Dr_Tweak]

Yeah it will do that if you pinch the line off. You should have two lines going to the wastegate actuator, one of them goes to the turbo and the other goes to a VSV (vacuum switching valve) under the intake manifold. Do you have that set up right?

-Doc

[toyotacrazy]

Yea thats correct. I have a vacuum tube from the turbo to the wastegate, from the wastegate to the large vsv and onward. I looked over the hoses and sprayed carb cleaner on most while at idle. No change in RPM. The most boost Im getting is 5-7 psi. When I pinched off the vacuum hose to the turbo, I got full 14 psi boost to fuel cut. I did this just to make sure I didnt have a problem with the turbo itself. Ive gotta get to the diagrams at work so I can see if everything is hooked up ok. Im thinking I have a problem with a vsv or the wastegate itself. Im working on some links for the pictures of the vacuum tubes. Thanks guys.

This post has been edited by toyotacrazy: Dec 30, 2006 - 9:40 PM

[Dr_Tweak]

Any codes from the ECU?

-Doc

[toyotacrazy]

The only code I have is 34 which is because I hit fuel cut testing the turbo.

[Dr_Tweak]

Where do you have the other vacuum line from the VSV going to?

-Doc

[toyotacrazy]

Its all stock setup. I really didnt mess with it. Ill go look and get right back.

[toyotacrazy]

The vacuum hose goes from the turbo, to the vsv, then from the vsv to this metal pipe that connects to the intake/snorkle tube and to the Idle air control. This metal tube is also where I had a questionable hose that I plugged off so the car would idle. I need to find a diagram. Hope this makes sense.
by the way I dont know how to put these pics on the net, other than using myspace. later

[lagos]

The vacuum hose goes from the turbo, to the vsv, then from the vsv to this metal pipe that connects to the intake/snorkle tube and to the Idle air control.

it sounds like you have this all wrong.

from the turbo, go right to the waste gate actuator.
from the waste gate actuator, go to the metal pipe that leads to the tvsv.
thats it.

the hose for your idle should go right to your intake. between the turbos' inlet, and the AFM.


you can upload pics to photobucket. then link to them on here.

This post has been edited by lagos: Dec 30, 2006 - 10:58 PM

[toyotacrazy]

Yea, your right. Sorry its been a long day. It goes from the turbo, to the wastegate, to the vsv, then to the metal pipe. My fault. Couldn't I just get a manual boost controller and eleminate the vsv? I would like to figure out whats wrong though. Its probably the way these hoses are routed. All I want is stock boost 10-12

[Dr_Tweak]

Yeah, put the MBC between the turbo and the wastegate actuator and plug the other line.

-Doc

[lagos]

what kind of exhaust do you have on the car? if its free flowing or an open downpipe, then your probably just seeing a lot of boost creep.

i have a 3in exhaust. i can set it to 10psi and keep it there. but once i got over 4K, i will always creep to at least 14psi.

[toyotacrazy]

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r29/toy...30Image0025.jpg

I plugged those two hoses off so the car would idle. If I didnt it surged and idles at 2,000

[toyotacrazy]

Its a stock exhaust setup. With a convertor below the turbo and a convertor after the flex pipe.

[lagos]

the top vac line normally goes to your charcole canister. most people ditch theirs, so you can just cap that.
the bottom hose, you should disconnect and cap both ends. they normally connect to a round metal valve that is used for the AC idle up system. you can also use the end on the intake manifold for a boost gauge or bov vac line.

This post has been edited by lagos: Dec 30, 2006 - 11:20 PM

[lagos]

i have a crap load of swap pics, if you want to reference something:
http://www.celicatech.com/lagos/swap%20picture%20diary%2004/

[toyotacrazy]

Yea I capped the small vac hose on the top. I also capped both the other fittings. It runs strong just only 6-7 psi of boost.

[toyotacrazy]

Ok heres my best guess to why my car wont boost past 7 psi. I noticed the coolant is flowing freely all the time through the radiator. Also my car is running cool by the temp gauge. I think my t-stat is either stuck open or someone took it out completely. IF the ecm has a "safe mode" it may only allow partial boost until the engine reaches normal operating temperature. I dont know for sure. But this is my best guess since the wastegate and related parts seem to work ok.
My second guess is that maybe I have a vacuum leak while under boost. You'd think that the car would idle high or run rough or something. It runs fine.
I'll throw a t-stat in it on Tuesday and let you all know if anything happens. Later

-toyotacrazy

[CelicaGT04]

It runs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I got it up and running. The correct ecu did the trick! Just working out the bugs now.....It idles high until I pinch off the large hose on the drivers side of the intake manifold. Then it goes down to normal idle. I think that hose goes to the wastegate. I gotta get a better look at it. At least it runs. Thanks all!!!!!!!!!!!

So the ECU work out good for you im hoping?

Good luck man, i hope to see some numbers from your car soon!

Let me know if you need any other parts.

[Dr_Tweak]

The ECU isn't in safe mode. If it was you'd be getting some codes. Your problem has something to do with the vacuum setup... for simplicity, install the MBC and be done with it.

-Doc

[toyotacrazy]

Thank you for all the help. Yea...Ill just get a mbc. When I pinched off that vac hose and got full boost. WOW! I cant wait to see that boost all the time. Ill let you guys know when its all working correctly. Thanks again doc. later all.
-toyotacrazy