cone filter - does it really make a difference?, newb questions Options

[BloodyStupidDave...]

Hi,

I notice that most members' cars have a cone filter fitted.

I picked up an unbranded burgandy red cone filter for a couple of pounds at my local scrappy. It looks brand new. Considering using it on my Celica, but does it really make a difference over the stock Toyota panel filter? Perhaps I should look at a K&N panel filter to go in the stock air filter box?

Also, being in the UK and as my Celica is my daily drive, the engine bay gets quite damp, salty and grubby. How do cone filters cope with water and dirt build-up? Should I be looking to box the cone filter in a similar way to the stock air filter box?

Finally, where is a good place to fit a mass air flow sensor with the stock setup and with the cone filter fitted?


This post has been edited by BloodyStupidDavey: Jun 16, 2007 - 12:03 PM

[tin_foil]

Well, yes cone filters make a difference. Simply by providing less resistance for the air flow than stock boxes. But the reality is that slapping an unbranded cone filter on will probably get you 1-3 more hp at best. Unless you plan on showing off your engine bay to a lot to people who have no idea what they're looking at, and you really want to impress them with some colored filter thing sitting in there, I'd stay stock. Especially cause of what you said about dirt and grime. Whatever you do, just don't put the cone filter in a box. That's not what they were designed for. You'll probably end up getting 0 to -2 hp. Keep asking questions, it's the best way to learn.

[brianforster]

just do it, it looks good

[hitcachi]

everybody wants teh blingz in the engine too!

[neo_in_aus]

Most people use cone filters for the 'bling' factor because they generally look good in a well maintained and cleaned engine bay. Sad thing about it is, unless you pipe in cool air directly to the cone filter, you are actually harming performance of your car by only sucking in hot air. Hot air is less dense than cold air, and as such you get less bang for your buck.

So unless you are planning on showing off your engine bay quite a bit, i would get the K&N drop in filter or equivalent. I have been using a K&N drop in filter and it works great. you just have to make sure to regularly clean the filter, however any replacement filter that is not a cheap paper filter will have the same requirement.

[BloodyStupidDave...]

Thanks for all the replies.

I have been using a K&N drop in filter and it works great.

But does it make a difference over the stock Toyota panel filter?

--
Davey

[uberschall]

But does it make a difference over the stock Toyota panel filter?

--
Davey

in a word, yes. in multiple words - a high performance filter (like a k&n) panel filter is designed to pass a higher volume of air by presenting less restriction (while maintaining a high level of filtration). oiled cotton filters require maintenance (washing and re-oiling), but the upside is that you can actually save money by purchasing one instead of a paper filter, which simply has to be discarded when it gets clogged/dirty.

i put a k&n in my last celica, and i'm putting one in my current one too.

[manphibian]

Thanks for all the replies.

I have been using a K&N drop in filter and it works great.

But does it make a difference over the stock Toyota panel filter?

--
Davey

I had a pipercross panel filter, which did make a difference over stock, then i got a K&N induction kit (cone) and that was better still.

As long as (mentioned above) you have a cold air feed going to it. The K&N 57i kit comes with a cold air hose and fixings.

And the cone filter gives the advantage of giving your engine a really cool, roaring noise

And i'm in the uk and mine is fine.

Go for it, as long as you fit some kind of cold air feed (from under the car)

There's a pic in my profile

This post has been edited by manphibian: Jan 2, 2007 - 5:50 PM

[Kwanza26]

Open element filters, cone, paper, foam, whatever it is... is mostly for the sound. The power increase is too small to really notice.

[hashmaster52]

Keep asking questions, it's the best way to learn.

lol yea but alotta times ur told 2 search.

[manphibian]

Open element filters, cone, paper, foam, whatever it is... is mostly for the sound. The power increase is too small to really notice.

I disagree. When i installed my cone and cold air feed, the difference WAS noticable! The throttle response was a lot faster and any flatspots in the acceleration were removed.

There is no doubt that increased cold air flow into the engine makes a difference.

[Jaws4God]

yeah i mainly did mine for looks.. but I do like the sound of it..

[ExSane]

THIS LINK WILL GIVE YOU ALL YOUR ANSWERS.

http://www.6gc.net/index.php?action=information&itu=11

If I were you, go for the K&N Drop In Filter. Esp with your situation with dirtiness of your engine bay. My 2 cents.

[Kwanza26]

Open element filters, cone, paper, foam, whatever it is... is mostly for the sound. The power increase is too small to really notice.

I disagree. When i installed my cone and cold air feed, the difference WAS noticable! The throttle response was a lot faster and any flatspots in the acceleration were removed.

There is no doubt that increased cold air flow into the engine makes a difference.

we're not talking about cold air. Open element filters tend to get hotter if anything...

[tin_foil]

Open element filters, cone, paper, foam, whatever it is... is mostly for the sound. The power increase is too small to really notice.

I disagree. When i installed my cone and cold air feed, the difference WAS noticable! The throttle response was a lot faster and any flatspots in the acceleration were removed.

There is no doubt that increased cold air flow into the engine makes a difference.

we're not talking about cold air. Open element filters tend to get hotter if anything...

^x2. Your cool air feed is the only thing you feel making a difference. Just a cone isn't going to make any noticible difference.

[GTS13]

Open element filters, cone, paper, foam, whatever it is... is mostly for the sound. The power increase is too small to really notice.

I disagree. When i installed my cone and cold air feed, the difference WAS noticable! The throttle response was a lot faster and any flatspots in the acceleration were removed.

There is no doubt that increased cold air flow into the engine makes a difference.

we're not talking about cold air. Open element filters tend to get hotter if anything...

^x2. Your cool air feed is the only thing you feel making a difference. Just a cone isn't going to make any noticible difference.

Agreed, although you're getting more air, it's gonna be hotter which can actually be worse. The cold feed is a good idea, especially since most CAI's get wet (very bad) and the feed can somewhat bypass that. Make sure your feed is placed in angles that water cannot travel up. Also it's always good to create a heat shield for you filter. They're not too hard to make and there are examples everywhere. It's just too bad no one makes perdy ones for our cars already.

[nate95]

go with out the filter!! lol. not smart, but does add more power. and better throttle response.

[Rockford]

I would prefer.. the K&N OEM replacement...

[BonzaiCelica]

back from the dead, I just hate creating new threads. I'm looking for a drop in filter, thats not oem. Well OEM is my cheapest option at around $20 with taxes included. The best filter I'd go for within my budget would be $50 for the K&N. The reason I don't want K&N is because I don't like oiling it and cleaning it. I currently have a cone K&N and it just doesn't seem to stay red with the oil I put on it after every 5,000 miles.

Whats the best DRY drop in filter for Under $45???

[trdproven]

TRD is within your budget but it is an oiled version. never heard of a drop in dry filter for our celica. In fact, i think its a waste of money to get a drop in filter. Although it does bring in a percentage improvement of air flow but it misses the two significant things we look for. #1 Most Air Flow Possible such as a cone filter that gives most potential performance increase for that particular system and #2 Sound (by preference). A drop in filter is really just for some unnoticeable improvement and keeping it stock profile sound and looks. Or perhaps thats what you are looking for?

I've owned:

TRD Drop In Filter
Injen
Fujita
Weapon R
Apexi
and generic unbrand

This post has been edited by trdproven: Jun 16, 2011 - 1:53 AM

[BonzaiCelica]

TRD and K&N are Oiled drop in filters. OEM, Apexi, Fujita, Green, AEM and Weapon R are all Dryflow Filters. I already have a custom short ram intake on my beams motor and It sounds awesome!

All 5sfe, 7afe and 3sgte along with 3rd gen 3SGE run MAP Sensor on the intake.

3S-GE Motors run MAF sensor or Air Flow Meter and it controls 99.9% of the AIR/FUEL Ratio. So that arises a problem and I'm either:

A. Running Rich up in the high RPM

or

B. Running Lean which is a bad thing.

I'm installing a AEM wideband Sensor very soon to see hows my car is running with the custom short ram intake. I just pray to God that the guy I sold my original intake from my beams engine will sell it back to me soon. He said he just needs to pass smog first or something like that. Finding an beams intake is so darn hard. Some Members with beams motor do is that have enough money, upgrade to a standalone ecu, and then convert the MAF sensor to MAP so they cany can run any size air intake piping they like without worrying about Air/Fuel Ratio's screwing up the engine.

[BonzaiCelica]

TRD is around $65 and my budget is $45.

[Cuts_the_Pilot]

Ignoring the fact that a pod filter (as they are called in aus) suck in hot air when they are just kicking around in an engine bay (and not in an airbox where they get cold air only) can ONLY give you a power increase because of one or both of the following reasons (put simply). (also assuming the stock airbox is a reasonably well designed bit of kit, which most modern stuff is, expecially for lightly modded cars, most manufacturers are a lot smarter then us after all).

If the pod has a larger surface area (for the sake of the point assume the pod filter has the same filtering ability as the OE panel filter in its box), so larger filtering surface area = less restriction for the engine = slight power increase

If the pod filter less filtering ability (for the sake of the argument assume the pod is the same or smaller filter surface area as the OE panel filter in its box), this is not desirable, less filtering ability = dirty air = engine is eating
sh!t

Im in the process of doing an experiment to prove a point to all the pod filter ricers out there. I have the OE panel filter from my 205 im going to cut appart and stretch out to its full size, then calculate the filter surface area, then do the same for just a generic pod filter. Im reasonably confident the panel will have a larger area.

Most people will "say" they get a power increase from fitting a pod, but most of the time its placebo effect from induction noise, and the "hope" they get an increase.

If they do get actual dyno proven power gains (remember dynos are usually done with the bonnet up, not the usual frontal airflow seen when driving, so actual results might differ from on the street) Then you have to wonder have they gained power from having a larger surface area or filtering less?

Following on from that how many people are replacing a reasonably new (and therefore not restrictive) OE filter with their fully sick pod filter? My guess is not many, usually it will be an old dirty restrictive OE filter, meaning the same or better gain would also be achieved with a new OE filter.

Here is a quick link that a guy did on a uzz30 soarer comparing pressure drop comparing dirty filters, to clean ones, to k&n drop in panels etc. Also modifying/replacing the stock airbox with an improved model.

planet soarer test

Its been mentioned about dry vs wet filters, naturally if you have an afm or maf then running an oiled filter is going to result in oil getting on the electronics, possibly causing incorrect readings = car running **** etc.
Oiled filters bring another issue, since they require maintenance failing to do so reduces its ability to filter meaning you will be sucking in dirty air. Conversly over oiling means you will have excellent filtering but you will be sucking extra oil into the engine, and proving a bigger restriction then necessary.
(for those that dont know the process for a K&N is to buy their "filter cleaning kit" (ahem further costs), first you spray the cleaner stuff onto the filter, let it soak in for a few minutes, then wash out with water. Let that dry completly, then you spray the oil onto the filter. I'de like to think most people aren't idiots and know when to stop spraying the oil on, but its simply not the case.

Just FYI yes im running pod filters on my 205, its 2x apexi pods (multiple tests on the net show apexi pods are about the best for filtering of the aftermarket ones). Im running 2 pods to help with the "restriction" and they are housed in a custom airbox only getting cold air (headlight intake).
In the chaser ive got an apexi panel (because it was on sale, i wont hesitate to use a toyota filter when its due), JZX100 Chasers have a MAF so im not going to be using an oiled filter.


End rant

This post has been edited by Cuts_the_Pilot: Jun 16, 2011 - 5:41 AM

[delusionz]

Back when my ST205 was stock and I had major boost creep, given the same conditions (ie, back to back run, same gear, same revs, same stretch of road),

first of all during the day

running a K&N drop in panel filter in the stock air box boosted to 1.1bar, K&N pod filter on a 3" aluminum intake made roughly the same, but took a few extra hundred rpm to get there (lag)

now at night, the stock air box with K&N drop in panel filter still saw the same 1.1bar but the K&N pod filter on the 3" aluminum intake saw regular spikes of 1.2bar a couple hundred rpm earlier (more response)

so my rant, factory airbox has a CFM limit below what the 3sgte engine is capable of ingesting, but the performance you get from a pod filter really depends on getting cold air to it

This post has been edited by delusionz: Jun 17, 2011 - 11:18 PM

[trdproven]

TRD is around $65 and my budget is $45.

I dont think those other brands make dry filters for our cars, I could be wrong but never heard of it. your budget is 45 dollars, 20 dollar difference, its only 20 bucks.

[Neon90424]

Sard SPORTS EX 99$ for the rest of your life

[BonzaiCelica]

Sard SPORTS EX 99$ for the rest of your life

might be what I'm buying.....

[NYp8tBaller07]

ever look at trueflow foam air filters?

[hatchy_gt-s]

AEM makes a dry flow drop in filter for $30~
They dont make one for the Celica, but if you call they can find it, thats what I did for my BEAMS.

[Neon90424]

Sard SPORTS EX 99$ for the rest of your life

might be what I'm buying.....

I have the old one and I cant complain. I washed it out with carb cleaner once never seems to get dirty though