My Engine Bay Renovation Thread, AE111 ECU conversion, wire tuck, and more... Options

[Coomer]

Over the past few days, I've finally had time to touch my car after months of not being able to work on it because of school and work.

A while ago, I came across a good deal on an AE111 ECU. I bought the ECU, and have been working to get my silvertop 4A-GE running on the new ECU. This thread will document some parts of the AE111 conversion.

First things first, I had to get the old wiring out of the car. Because of my stupid old wiring setup, the harness was squeezed between the intake manifold and valve cover, so I had to remove the valve cover to get the harness out.



Then I removed the passenger seat and parts of the dash for easy access to the ECU and body harness plugs.



I took notes of where every wire went on the ECU plugs and body harness plugs, and I then proceeded to start unlooming the harness. Some things had to be cut, so I took good notes and labeled wires before I cut them.



I continued removing stuff...I found it easier to work with the throttle cable and stuff out of the way. Individual throttle bodies...mmmmm...



Finally, I got the entire harness unloomed. As I took notes and unloomed the harness, I came across some interesting things. First off, my knock sensor was spliced into a ground wire before it made it to the ECU...I'm sure that wasn't good. Also, my oxygen sensor was wired incorrectly, with both white wires of the Bosch four-wire oxygen sensor going to the HT pin on the AE101 ECU. Also, the black ground wire of the oxygen sensor was grounded to a chassis ground point, not the sensor ground pin on the ECU.

Here is the unloomed harness. You can see some of my notes on this photo. I took tons of notes so that I could put everything back to the way it was if desired.



Once I had everything unloomed, I began modifying the harness to suit my new ECU, which has a significant number of changes as far as where wires go on the ECU plugs. Also, I had to remove the AFM plug and add plugs for an intake air temperature sensor (that I got from a fifth gen. Celica ST) and a manifold absolute pressure sensor (that I got from a sixth gen. Celica ST.) None of the body harness plugs had to be changed, except for the circuit opening relay, which now gets its FC signal from the ECU, rather than the AFM on the old setup.

To minimize soldering joints and keep things clean, I de-pinned my ECU plugs, removed un-necessary wires, and moved pins around. I highly recommend that you do this, as it keeps things clean and it's easy once you know how to de-pin those plugs.

For most Toyota plugs, there is a lock that pries up with something small and pointy, like a safety pin. This must be pulled up before pins can be removed.



On a Honda plug (I found my 22-pin ECU plug from a '94 or '95 Honda Accord because I couldn't find a suitable one on a Toyota,) the locks are different, and are simply flaps at the back of the plug that must be pried open, like in the photo below.



Once the lock is unlocked, you can see tabs in the side opposite of the wires (the side that plugs into whatever...in my case, the ECU.) These tabs must be pried up with something like a safety pin, and then once they're up, the pins will pull out from the wire-side of the plug. It takes some patience to get the hang of it, or at least it did for me, but once you've got it figured out it becomes easy.

And by the way, the pins just push right back in and snap into place. And I found that the Toyota pins are not interchangeable with the Honda pins. And also, the pins vary in size and not every pin will work in every connector, or even in different parts of the same connector.

With the ECU plug pins moved, I completed most of the connections on my harness. I then triple checked all of my connections, tracing them out by hand and with the multimeter to ensure correctness. Once I was pretty confident that my wiring was correct, I taped the harness up a bit, plugged everything in, and prepared to hook up the battery and start up the car.

I hooked up the battery and listened and looked for anything out of the ordinary, like wires getting hot or burning, etc. Everything seemed fine, so I put the car in diagnostic mode. To do this, you short the TE1 pin on the ECU to the E1 ECU pin, at least in my case, because I removed my diagnostic box. Once in diagnostic mode, I turned the car to on, but didn't start it yet. The check engine light began flashing, indicating that I have a code 21, or a miswired oxygen sensor.

After talking with Dr. Tweak, he kindly told me that I shouldn't have had both white wires of the oxygen sensor wired to the HT ECU pin, and that one of the wires should go to ignition power. Once I made the change, my code went away, and I had no more codes, which is indicated by a constantly quick flashing check engine light when in diagnostic mode.

With no more codes, it was time to start the car. I made sure all my wiring was out of the way, vacuum lines were in order, etc., and then I cranked the car, and it fired right up instantly. I ran around ensuring that everything looked normal and nothing was burning or acting strangely, and then I let the ECU adjust itself over a period of a few minutes. At this point, the bay looked like this.



With wires everywhere and things like the IAT and MAP sensors just sitting there, I couldn't drive the car, so I just revved the car a couple times, and wow, the sound of the open throttle bodies is amazing.

Everything seemed to be in order, so I turned the car off, checked for codes again in diagnostic mode, and found none. I then removed the battery and removed the harness so that I could finish it up and loom everything up.

Before the weekend, my velocity stacks arrived, so I had to modify them to fit my intake manifold.



As you can see, the place where the holes were was cut, so that now there are notches. This was done because the holes didn't match the holes on my intake manifold, which are a little bit further apart than the velocity stacks.

I then bolted them on, loomed up the harness, cleaned up some vacuum line routing, installed the VVT plug and OEM Toyota coil (from a ST164 Celica with a 3S-GE,) and then hooked the battery back up. When all of this was done, the bay still wasn't complete, but it was clean enough to go for a drive.



So I started the car, checked for codes, found none, and proceeded to let the car warm up and adjust itself. Once adjusted and warmed up, I went for a drive, with mixed emotions.

First off, the car absolutely screams at wide open throttle. The sound of the air rushing through the velocity stacks and into the individual throttle bodies at full throttle is indescribable. It's crazy loud and sounds kind of like DOHC VTEC on steroids. As you reach the 6700 RPM to 8000 RPM range, the noise is deafening. And it's not just loud and mean sounding, but at WOT, it is fast...much faster than before!

That said however, the car is running like crap. At partial throttle, the car has virtually no power, and when you do floor it you don't get instant throttle response like before. Instead, the car feels like it bogs down and hesitates for a moment, and then it gets fast and runs well until redline. Also, the idle remains at 1500 RPM.

I'm pretty sure it's a vacuum issue, and this is the point that I'm stuck at right now. Here is my current vacuum setup.



First off, take note of vacuum spot circled in yellow. First, I had that spot connected to a line, to a metal tube, to another line, to another metal tube, and finally to another smaller rubber line that was open. When I first had the car running on the new ECU, this was how it was, and the car idled at 900 RPM just as it should and revved just fine.

So when I was removing extra vacuum lines, I removed the extra lines and tubes and crap from that vacuum spot that eventually just were open. But I'm thinking that the smaller line that eventually just went to the atmosphere must have restricted airflow a bit.

This vacuum spot initially went to the intake manifold plenum, after the AFM and before the ITBs, and is supposedly the "power steering rack and pinion's vacuum idle up valve / compensator return hole" according to this site.

But anyway, after reading the explanation on that site, I tried capping that vacuum spot, pulled the EFI fuse so the ECU could reset, and then started the car and let it adjust. Idle was fine, at about 900 RPM, but when I revved the motor, the response was VERY laggy. So as the car was running, I removed the cap, and the idle went up, but immediately, the engine would again rev instantly.

I shut off the car and reset the ECU again, and the car idled very high on immediate startup (like 2500 RPM...about 500 higher than normal when it's first adjusting) and once it was adjusted, the idle was still at 1500 RPM. This is the current state that the car is in, and when I was driving the car, this is how it was.

I'm thinking that perhaps that vacuum line has to do with my high idle and bad driveability problems. Anyone have any ideas there?

Or, perhaps it could be my three foot long vacuum line to my MAP sensor I'm thinking. On the Toyotas I've seen, it's typically been short, like 6-9" or so, but mine is quite a bit longer to accomodate my hidden remote mounting location for the MAP sensor. I'm guessing that three feet is too long...anyone have any input?

Keep in mind that the car idled and ran beautifully before I swapped in the new ECU. And I'm not throwing any codes at all at the moment.

What do you guys think? And any comments thus far are welcome as well...I'll be adding to this thread as I accomplish more on the car.

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

When I started reading I didn't know why you would switch ECU's. That is pretty cool though. Glad to hear you've got it together.

[doGGy]

Chris - i ENVY you so damn much.... ITB's one day... one day....

[x_itchy_b_x]

awesome! ITB FTW.
love the pics they are so good!

[Chanh55]

I demand some footage of the engine at idle. =)

[eggman40]

I demand some footage of the engine at idle. =)

yea im with chanh on this one. im curious to hear what this motor sounds like at idle and if possible, maybe a few runs congrats, hope you fix the problem your having.

[hitcachi]

Might be a vacuum line causing your problems, or it might be the throttle cable. You said that you took it out to help make space. Perhaps its ajusted to tightly or you reinstalled it incorrectly and its sticking or something. Its a long shot but just an idea.

[WannabeGT4]

I'm not a silver top guru or anything but I'm pretty sure that each thottle body has a vacuum port on the bottom side that runs to a hard line that I think is called the vacuum equalizer or something like that. The MAP sensor should be hooked up to that hard line at the first available port. The rest of those vacuum lines that you have open should be plugged. Also the difference in partial throttle and full throttle power probably has to do with the fact that you're running open loop in one and closed loop in the other. If you O2 sensor isn't wired just right then you'll be running really rich at partial throttle. I'll have to look at my wiring diagrams when I get home to tell you exactly how the O2 sensor is supposed to be wired. I'm pretty sure that if it's a 4 wire sensor two of the wires are power and ground and one of the other two go to O2 at the ECU and the other goes to HT of the ECU. The O2 signal wire should be shielded as well since the O2 sensor is a very low voltage signal.

EDIT:This should help with the wiring of your bosch O2 Sensor:
http://www.boschautoparts.com/NR/rdonlyres...nsorInstall.pdf
Black is the signal wire and should go to the ECU pin OX/O2/OX1 or something of the like... I don't know what it's called on the AE111 ECU.
One of the white wires should go to the HT/HTR pin of the ECU
The other white wire should get ignition power
The Gray wire should be ground.

Hope that helps.

This post has been edited by WannabeGT4: Jan 29, 2007 - 4:51 PM

[netrata]

Hey Coomer, try putting back all of the smaller vac. lines and hard lines back the way it was (basically the way it was before you removed everything from the p/s rack vac. lines), and just cap off at the end of the hardline. If you said that it revved fine at that one point, then maybe it was better to be left as it is.

[lagos]

nice job coomer! make some vids of how it sounds for us!

as far as your issues go... make sure that the vac line your using for the map sensor is a good source of vac. you can do this by disconnecting the vac tube and putting your finger over it. you should feel strong suction. you can also hook up a vac gauge to see if your getting around 20vac at idle from that vac source.

also, double check that the map sensor you are using is compatible with the new ecu.

then check your o2 sensor wiring again. the ecu uses the o2 sensor for a lot of its part throttle calculations. if you wired up something wrong, then youll feel hesitation while driving.

[Coomer]

Thanks for the advice guys. I'll definitely get some vids up once everything is running right.

It's surely not my throttle cable, as it has a little bit of slack and the linkage at the ITBs is all the way closed.

As far as the oxygen sensor wiring goes, it's wired correctly now...at one point it wasn't and I got a code for it, but I talked to Dr. Tweak and he helped me out and now it's wired as Wannabe described above.

And Art, I'll have to see if I can find a vacuum gauge and test it. And from what I've read, the MAP sensor I'm using from an AT200 Celica should be compatible.

I won't be able to get to working on the car again until probably Thursday, but hopefully then I'll be able to try some things out and see if I can get the car running well.

[Drew-887]

Its cool to see someone building up a 4age Slivertop. Ive seen alot of 3sgte builds lately so its nice to see something different. Hey Coomer im confused about something, why did you put in a Ae111 ECU? Does it work better than the Ae101 ECU and do velocity stacks really make a big power difference?

[Coomer]

Its cool to see someone building up a 4age Slivertop. Ive seen alot of 3sgte builds lately so its nice to see something different. Hey Coomer im confused about something, why did you put in a Ae111 ECU? Does it work better than the Ae101 ECU and do velocity stacks really make a big power difference?

The AE111 ECU uses a manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensor rather than an air flow meter (AFM) unit to meter air entering the engine. This allows you to run open velocity stacks.

But best of all, the AE111 ECU has a more aggressive tune, so the same motor will produce more power with an AE111 ECU than with an AE101 ECU. The car is much faster at WOT with the new ECU, and I actually had the '93.5+ AE101 ECU before, which turns on VVT more effectively than older pre-'93.5 AE101 ECUs.

Also, velocity stacks, from what I've read, don't make too much of a power difference at all. In fact, all 20-valve 4A-GE motors come with curved plastic velocity stacks from the factory...you just don't see them because they're tucked away inside an intake plenum. This page kind of explains the purpose of a velocity stack.

Now I just wish I had an AE111 motor (lighter internals, bigger intake/exhaust ports) to go with the ECU. Well, and that my car would run right, but hopefully I'll be able to figure that out soon.

[Chanh55]

There's not a filter or anything?

[Bitter]

i think you should try to put the intake manifold on and the IAT in the stock location, its horribly important to the speed/density calculations that the ECU uses to figure out how much air is coming in.

[Coomer]

There's not a filter or anything?

Not at the moment...I'll figure out something though. I'm just not sure which filter option I want to go with.

i think you should try to put the intake manifold on and the IAT in the stock location, its horribly important to the speed/density calculations that the ECU uses to figure out how much air is coming in.

Well, my intake manifold plenum doesn't have a spot for the IAT sensor (it's in the AFM for the AE101,) and the IAT is currently just hanging almost right in front of cylinder number two's velocity stack. Most people running this same setup do essentially the same thing.

[WannabeGT4]

About the O2 sensor... You said it was hooked up just like I said but in your original post you called the black wire ground. The black wire is actually the O2 signal wire which needs to be shielded. The ground is grey.

This post has been edited by WannabeGT4: Jan 29, 2007 - 6:57 PM

[Coomer]

About the O2 sensor... You said it was hooked up just like I said but in your original post you called the black wire ground. The black wire is actually the O2 signal wire which needs to be shielded. The ground is grey.

Actually, I think I hooked the black wire to the OX pin on the ECU and the gray to the ECU E2 sensor ground pin...but I'm not entirely sure...I'll check my notes and my wiring when I go home. And I did shield the oxygen sensor signal wire from the ECU to the place where it splits and goes into the fireproof sleeving, along with the knock sensor and the four distributor wires. I'll just have to double check that wire. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

Now I just wish I had an AE111 motor (lighter internals, bigger intake/exhaust ports) to go with the ECU. Well, and that my car would run right, but hopefully I'll be able to figure that out soon.

Seems like it would be just as easy to port/polish an AE101 and put some lighter internals in it. I would definately consider some pod filters for those.

[97lestyousay]

Nice work. That wiring looks like a nightmare to sort through.
I am now in a quandry. I have about 1400.00 to spend
on my car, I want to do the gt4 exterior conversion but I can
do a blacktop swap for around the same price. Maybe next year.
You will be an expert on the subject by then. I'm sure I'll need
some advise.

[Coomer]

Now I just wish I had an AE111 motor (lighter internals, bigger intake/exhaust ports) to go with the ECU. Well, and that my car would run right, but hopefully I'll be able to figure that out soon.

Seems like it would be just as easy to port/polish an AE101 and put some lighter internals in it. I would definately consider some pod filters for those.

I don't think so...the AE111's ports are much, much larger, especially because I think I have a pre-'93.5 head. And to get the lighter internals I'd pretty much have to buy a blacktop motor, in which case I might as well just drop that into the car.

Nice work. That wiring looks like a nightmare to sort through.
I am now in a quandry. I have about 1400.00 to spend
on my car, I want to do the gt4 exterior conversion but I can
do a blacktop swap for around the same price. Maybe next year.
You will be an expert on the subject by then. I'm sure I'll need
some advise.

I could definitely help out...just let me know.

[Bitter]

There's not a filter or anything?

Not at the moment...I'll figure out something though. I'm just not sure which filter option I want to go with.

i think you should try to put the intake manifold on and the IAT in the stock location, its horribly important to the speed/density calculations that the ECU uses to figure out how much air is coming in.

Well, my intake manifold plenum doesn't have a spot for the IAT sensor (it's in the AFM for the AE101,) and the IAT is currently just hanging almost right in front of cylinder number two's velocity stack. Most people running this same setup do essentially the same thing.

ah ok, i thought it was dangling off in some corner of the engine bay :lol:

dont forget to check out the 4age forums for some insight and help.

time to get a wideband O2 and see whats going on i think, or atleast piggyback the stock sensor with a DVOM so you can see if its rich or lean when it bogs.

This post has been edited by Bitter: Jan 29, 2007 - 10:12 PM

[Coomer]

What's a DVOM?

And unfortunately, the Club4AG forums are down.

The other night I first tried putting on the motor's stock vacuum line thing that attaches to the tranny side of the block with two 12mm bolts and hooking that up to the vacuum line in the first post circled in yellow. While this restricted the flow of air into that port and lowered the idle down to around 900-1000 RPM, it didn't help the hesitation and poor driveability under partial throttle.

So I shortened up the MAP sensor vacuum line, from three feet to about three inches. That helped a little bit, but not much.

So I installed the stock plenum and stock velocity stacks and put a filter on the inlet of the plenum. Inside the plenum lies the IAT sensor. The vacuum line circled in yellow above connects to the small port on the plenum. The ISCV intake connects to the large port on the plenum. I'm tapping into the same spot for my MAP sensor, and now the line is about eight inches long. While this helped significantly, I still have quite a bit of hesitation.

The MR2OC guys said I should check timing (though I'm sure it hasn't changed) and maybe try letting the ECU learn some more.

Anyone have any good ideas?

[Bitter]

dvom is a fancy term for a multimeter

knowing what the O2 sensor is telling the engine could help determine whats going on.

[Coomer]

Ah ok, I figured that's what you meant but wasn't sure.

[97lestyousay]

And unfortunately, the Club4AG forums are down.

The Tech section is still up. Not much info on the 20V though.

[Coomer]

Last weekend I checked my timing and it's advanced ten degrees, which is ideal for the silvertop 4A-GE.

I then drove for about 60 miles, hoping the ECU would learn and adjust, and it didn't do much to help. I still have hesitation and poor response at partial throttle, and my idle fluctuates from idling near 2000 RPM down to about 1000 RPM.

Anyone have any good ideas?

[soulshadow]

The yellow part u circled was for the A/C when it was running. It would open if ON and Close if OFF. Most likely for the Idle.

There are 4 screws Located on the ITBs itself that you can adjust for air flow. Beyond that its going to have to be tunning your engine to run at Max performance. The main problem lies in between the Eng. sucking up too much air and not enough gas or even vice versa because my spits out soot for running TOO rich.

The AE111 do have a bigger Intake manifold for the vaccum ports, so you will have to adjust ur 101 to match that with the Ae111.

By they way coomer are u selling ur old ECU? I need one.



The ones circled in red can actually be adjusted. I think CW for more vaccum and CCW for les vaccum. You will just have to play with it.


This post has been edited by soulshadow: Feb 5, 2007 - 3:09 PM

[playr158]

chris are you running anything else on the same line as the MAP sensor, might want to try giving it its own line?

This post has been edited by playr158: Feb 5, 2007 - 3:03 PM

[lagos]

coomer...

so you reinstalled the stock intake manifold, right?
when you checked your timing, you had the ecu in diagnostic mode?

you can get one of those cheap a/f ratio gauges to test the o2 sensor. you hook it up, drive for a few miles and then look at what its doing at idle and at cruise. if all is working correctly, you should see it bounce back and forth. if there is a problem with the o2, it will either read rich or lean all the time.

then do a vac test. if you dont have a gauge, you can just do a boost leak test. fill the motor with air from a compressor and use soapy water to look fir any vac leaks. you would probably need the intake manifold installed for this test.

if it passes all those tests, then i would point the finger at your map sensor and intake air temp sensors.

This post has been edited by lagos: Feb 5, 2007 - 3:51 PM

[Coomer]

The yellow part u circled was for the A/C when it was running. It would open if ON and Close if OFF. Most likely for the Idle.

There are 4 screws Located on the ITBs itself that you can adjust for air flow. Beyond that its going to have to be tunning your engine to run at Max performance. The main problem lies in between the Eng. sucking up too much air and not enough gas or even vice versa because my spits out soot for running TOO rich.

The AE111 do have a bigger Intake manifold for the vaccum ports, so you will have to adjust ur 101 to match that with the Ae111.

By they way coomer are u selling ur old ECU? I need one.

Are you sure it's for A/C? What I've read is that it's for power steering.

And I don't think I want to mess with the individual vacuum settings for each cylinder yet...there'd be no way to really reliably tune the motor on my own doing that.

And I may sell the old ECU...it depends on whether or not I end up going back to the stock setup if I can't get this working.

chris are you running anything else on the same line as the MAP sensor, might want to try giving it its own line?

Yeah, I teed into a line, but I'm not sure where that line goes. From what I heard it should be a good vacuum source.

coomer...

so you reinstalled the stock intake manifold, right?
when you checked your timing, you had the ecu in diagnostic mode?

you can get one of those cheap a/f ratio gauges to test the o2 sensor. you hook it up, drive for a few miles and then look at what its doing at idle and at cruise. if all is working correctly, you should see it bounce back and forth. if there is a problem with the o2, it will either read rich or lean all the time.

then do a vac test. if you dont have a gauge, you can just do a boost leak test. fill the motor with air from a compressor and use soapy water to look fir any vac leaks. you would probably need the intake manifold installed for this test.

if it passes all those tests, then i would point the finger at your map sensor and intake air temp sensors.

Yeah, I reinstalled the stock intake manifold plenum and stuck a filter on the end of it.

And yes, when I was checking timing, the car was in diagnostic mode.

I'll have to see about finding a cheap a/f ratio gauge and checking my vacuum lines.

[Bitter]

you can use a multi meter to read the narrowband, its actually not that far off from what my wideband reads! i was getting over 1 volt which was over 11:1 at WOT, and my wideband agrees.

[Kwanza26]

you can use a multi meter to read the narrowband, its actually not that far off from what my wideband reads! i was getting over 1 volt which was over 11:1 at WOT, and my wideband agrees.

Only he's not having a problem at WOT... and narrowbands' MAXIUMUM accuracy is at WOT. I always reccomend a wideband for tuning so you can accurately tune the entire rpm band...

Anyway... still sounds like a MAP pressure problem. My suggestion... a few years ago during our ITB B16B build... there was a MAP sensor problem similar to yours. We were getting unequal pressure readings to the MAP... which caused the engine to stumble in the mid-range... because each throttlebody is independent, each will have different pressure going into each cylinder. Hooking up the map to only one pressure source will cause a slight lag between each individual stroke and the ecu will throw off fueling. This doesn't happen at WOT which the ECU reads off the TPS more. We never got a perfect fix... but we hooked up a vaccum line to each individual throttlebody and ran it to a canister, then to a single line to the MAP. This did fix a lot of the stumbling, and with further tuning I'm pretty sure the engine would have ran great. Unfortunately this project was scrapped and a LSVTEC build came into effect. I believe the stock blacktop intake manifold has a built in vac port that grabs a source from all 4 throttles... similar to its brake booster line... except smaller.

[Bitter]

nah, the narrow bands swing at idle and closed loop is usually about the same as what you see the swing on a wideband as being. its acutally pretty accurate, just harder to read since the swing is more dramatic.

[Coomer]

Thanks for the advice guys.

Bee, I'd do that, except I can't really access the bottom of the manifold. I tried and tried but it's too high up to get at from the bottom and there's no way I can see what I'm doing from above.

There are these tiny holes that connect to vacuum lines that then connect together:



Do you think those are big enough to get a reliable vacuum for my MAP sensor from them?

I was also thinking though, I removed my charcoal canister, which was never really hooked up right in the first place I think. And I remember I smelled gas in my engine bay a couple times. All I have right now is a single fuel line coming from the tank to the engine. Should I have a charcoal canister, and if so, how are those vacuum lines supposed to be hooked up? And then, do I need the VSV for EVAP hooked up somehow?

[Kwanza26]

Thanks for the advice guys.

Bee, I'd do that, except I can't really access the bottom of the manifold. I tried and tried but it's too high up to get at from the bottom and there's no way I can see what I'm doing from above.

There are these tiny holes that connect to vacuum lines that then connect together:



Do you think those are big enough to get a reliable vacuum for my MAP sensor from them?

I was also thinking though, I removed my charcoal canister, which was never really hooked up right in the first place I think. And I remember I smelled gas in my engine bay a couple times. All I have right now is a single fuel line coming from the tank to the engine. Should I have a charcoal canister, and if so, how are those vacuum lines supposed to be hooked up? And then, do I need the VSV for EVAP hooked up somehow?

You don't *need* the evap system hooked for the engine to run correctly. The fuel smell is directly because you have no charcoal canister to absorb it. Anyway... those vac sources you have pictured are too far, or should I say too close to the throttle body. They're basically right on it... so no... it'll get you a fairly unstable source of pressure. Preferably, you get it as close to the head as you can for the most accurate pressure. I haven't researched exactly what the difference between the silvertop and blacktop intake manifolds are... but I remember reading there is a difference beside the size. I've never had to deal with a MAP source on the stock 20V ITBs before... so i can't relate any expertise there. I had mine hooked up the same as you have yours in the picture... but never got the engine to a tuning stage to diagnose... so... gotta research.

[Coomer]

Thanks for the advice Bee. I think where I have tapped into now is the vacuum rail, which supposedly gets vacuum from all four cylinders...I'm not sure how close to the head the vacuum holes are, but it's probably fairly close.

[netrata]

Coomer,
I stumbled on this on ebay from a good seller I bought a part from a while back. It might be of good use to you since your running ITB's.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JDM-20V-AE1...1QQcmdZViewItem
I am also on the side viewing vac. related issues that you are having with your conversion. I'll be trying to help you out a bit at a time

[Coomer]

Thanks for the link, but I don't think I want to spend another $110 just yet if I end up having to keep the factory plenum on.

[blazin674]

very nice work, this is my first post here but i have been on other forums before and currently own a 1987 corolla fx16 gts with an ae101 20v in it and was plannin on swapping to an ae111 ecu this is a great help to me

[Coomer]

very nice work, this is my first post here but i have been on other forums before and currently own a 1987 corolla fx16 gts with an ae101 20v in it and was plannin on swapping to an ae111 ecu this is a great help to me

Glad it's helpful. I'll try to get my notes posted up here by the end of next weekend as well...those should help a bit more.

I just wish I could figure out my hesitation issue...I spent a good few hours reading stuff last night and still haven't come up with any solutions...I'm going to try some new things when I go home, so hopefully I can get it running well.

[jcbass7]

Good luck coomer,

I never realized how nice your engine bay looked. those ITB's are sweeet

[blazin674]

did you happen to get the ae111 manual i know there is a pfd file running around somewhere i have it on my computer if you want it

[Coomer]

did you happen to get the ae111 manual i know there is a pfd file running around somewhere i have it on my computer if you want it

Yep, I've got it, along with tons and tons of other saved documents from the web...I've got quite the collection going on.

Yesterday I finally got the car to idle perfectly. After seeing a Jamaican guy solve one of his issues with an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and a vacuum line going to it from the MAP sensor line, I figured I'd try T-ing into my MAP sensor line again and running a vacuum line from the T to the fuel pressure regulator.

This solved my idle. No longer will it sometimes stay near 1700-2000 RPM even when warm. It idles at a perfect 900 RPM all the time now once warm.

That said, I still have bad hesitation issues from before.

[95CelicaST]

Yep, I've got it, along with tons and tons of other saved documents from the web...I've got quite the collection going on.

Yesterday I finally got the car to idle perfectly. After seeing a Jamaican guy solve one of his issues with an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and a vacuum line going to it from the MAP sensor line, I figured I'd try T-ing into my MAP sensor line again and running a vacuum line from the T to the fuel pressure regulator.

This solved my idle. No longer will it sometimes stay near 1700-2000 RPM even when warm. It idles at a perfect 900 RPM all the time now once warm.

That said, I still have bad hesitation issues from before.

One step at a time Coomer

[Coomer]

Actually, my bad idle came back with the new vacuum setup once I reset the ECU again.

So I capped the vacuum line circled in yellow in my first post, which was going to the stock intake plenum. I reset the ECU once more, and the idle seems to be fine now. The car seems to rev a bit slower at idle however. I haven't had time to drive the car much to see if it will adjust and the hesitation will get better, but maybe this weekend.

By the way, I double checked all wiring again and everything tests out correctly, including the oxygen sensor wiring. And I'm still not throwing any codes.

Also, I grabbed my notes from home, and will be posting them up shortly. Just have to scan them in.

[Coomer]

As promised, here are my notes...they're not as clear as I remember them being, lol. But hopefully you guys can make some sense of them and they'll be helpful for someone.

If you have any questions, please ask while the info is still fresh in my head.

[Batman722]

^^ great scribbles Coomer. After reading this post top to bottom it just seems to me like you have/had some vac problem throwing the ECU in a tizzy and messing with the A/F mix. Have you checked your plugs/wires lately ?

[Coomer]

It's finally running right! Today I removed the factory plenum to see if I could access any more vacuum lines that might be damaged or open, and I found a really small vacuum line that was open. I plugged it, threw on the factory velocity stacks (no factory plenum though,) put the IAT sensor right at the cylinder #4 velocity stack entrance, reset the ECU, and fired the car up.

It immediately idled right around 1,600 RPM as it warmed up and learned (just like it did before with the AE101 ECU,) and as the car learned the idle dropped down to a solid 900 RPM.

I drove it, and it runs beautifully. Perfect idle, good torque and partial-throttle acceleration, no hesitation, and plenty of power (and noise) at WOT.

I drove it a good 25 miles with this setup and everything seems to be working beautifully now. The vacuum setup is a bit different than before, and I'll get some pics up, possibly Thursday or next weekend.

I have a feeling that it'll run well with the nice aftermarket velocity stacks I got as well, so I'll have to try that when I get a chance. But regardless, it's running awesome with open velocity stacks and I'm very happy.

Oh, except twice today the car exhibited some weird issues when free-revving high. Once, when the car was learning, I revved it up from the engine bay and it was like a backfire, except the flame came through the velocity stack. When I revved it up, a loud pop and a flame shot out through the cylinder #4 velocity stack. The flame was just visible for a tiny moment, and I could feel the pressure shoot back against my arm.

Also, it popped again once when I was rev-matching pretty high (like 4000 RPM) to downshift to second when I was driving. Any idea what would cause that? I'm sure it can't be good. Maybe too advanced timing? (It was correctly set at 10 degrees advanced in diagnostic mode.)

[netrata]

Yeah I would recheck the timing again and readjust when necessary. It's great to hear that the ecu conversion finally worked out well. I'm itchin' to do the same, but since I need the car as a daily driver I know I won't be able to do the conversion and be done with it in a day or 2 even if I wanted to. Anyways, I wish I could see your car for myself, but it's too bad I live so far away to.

This post has been edited by netrata: Feb 11, 2007 - 8:05 PM

[OOBE]

Good stuff, C. It was really stressing me out knowing that your engine wasn't runing up to par.

[GTSOwner]

Now that it's running right, how about a couple vids?

[Bitter]

check the intake cam timing, usually when it back fires out the intake and the ignition timing is correct its because a valve is still a little open with the spark fires. or its possible that one of the valves isn't seating properly, is burned a little, etc. a quick compression test should rule that out tho.

[x_itchy_b_x]

awesome to hear! im sure that it sounds amazing.
normally combustion coming out of the intake is a timing issue being to far advanced. you may be at 10 degrees with the distributer but the mechanical timing could off a tooth or the crank pulley 0 mark indicator could be off due to the pulley moving. happened on my 3sgte, the 0 mark was actually 4 degrees BTDC. had to get a dial indicator on cylinder #1 to get the real BDC.

[MtyMseHarmer]

Glad to hear you got your conversion setup running right. I am currently in the process of switching my silvertop in my AW11 to blacktop electronics. However, I am kekeping the silvertop ITB's for now so hopefully I wont have any problems like you had. Oh and a guy who does MR2 harness's for the 20v's is converting the wiring for me so I just get to do the easy parts :-). I have a question for you. Where did you get your velocity stacks at and how much where they?

[Coomer]

Glad to hear you got your conversion setup running right. I am currently in the process of switching my silvertop in my AW11 to blacktop electronics. However, I am kekeping the silvertop ITB's for now so hopefully I wont have any problems like you had. Oh and a guy who does MR2 harness's for the 20v's is converting the wiring for me so I just get to do the easy parts :-). I have a question for you. Where did you get your velocity stacks at and how much where they?

I'm using the silvertop ITBs as well, just for your information.

And I got the velocity stacks from eBay. I just glanced and didn't find the ones I got on eBay anymore, but they look really similar to these. They required modification to fit, as you can see in my photo below.



I may be selling mine, but I'm not sure yet...I have to see how the car runs with them on.

[vsideboy]

nice work mate, alot of head scratching and sleepless nights though no doubt.

Glad its almost finally sorted!

D

[Drew-887]

Any vids???

[Coomer]

Any vids???

Not yet. I wanna make a really cool 3-4 minute video of the whole car, but I want it to be done first. And before it's done, I'm not sure how far I want to go.

What I'm considering is doing a wire tuck and cleaning the engine bay up a ton, so that it's actually presentable. This would involve the following:

• Remove sideskirts, fenders, front extensions, front bumper, hood
• Pull the Motor
• Replace flywheel with a lightweight one
• Replace tranny with an AT200 C52
• Clean block and manifolds (maybe polish header)
• Relocate battery, fuse box, ignitor, coil, MAP sensor
• Hide lots of wiring (requires rewiring harness for what I have in mind)
• Relocate fuel filter
• Remove power steering
• Grind off battery tray
• Hide coolant reservoir a bit better
• Hide windshield washer fluid filler spout
• Modify throttle linkage to run a shorter cable
• Paint engine bay yellow to match the car
• Maybe move radiator fans
• Re-install everything

What do you guys think? Would you do all of that just to have a better looking engine bay? I figure I could do it all over spring break and have quite the impressive engine bay, but that's a lot of work...especially pulling the motor (I HATE removing axles the most ) and relocating the fuse box. What do you guys think?

[x_itchy_b_x]

that would look CLEAN!! go for it, your work i always very meticulous.

[celicaST]

thats a lot of work for cosmetics, but it would look sick . only thing i wouldnt do on that list is paint the engine bay yellow, would be too much in my opinion. keep it black. also curious, why swap back to the st's tranny? different gear ratios? i assume they would be shorter on the celica.

This post has been edited by celicaST: Feb 13, 2007 - 3:59 PM

[Coomer]

thats a lot of work for cosmetics, but it would look sick . only thing i wouldnt do on that list is paint the engine bay yellow, would be too much in my opinion. keep it black. also curious, why swap back to the st's tranny? different gear ratios? i assume they would be shorter on the celica.

Actually, most of all, I want the bay to be yellow, even if it's not wire-tucked or anything...I think it looks bad when the engine bay is a different color as the car.

And the AT200 actually has a taller fifth gear, so I'll be cruising at lower RPM when I'm on the freeway. Plus, my AE101 C52 is completely shot...it's just a matter of time before I can't shift at all anymore...stupid weak C-series trannies.

[celicaST]

thats a lot of work for cosmetics, but it would look sick . only thing i wouldnt do on that list is paint the engine bay yellow, would be too much in my opinion. keep it black. also curious, why swap back to the st's tranny? different gear ratios? i assume they would be shorter on the celica.

Actually, most of all, I want the bay to be yellow, even if it's not wire-tucked or anything...I think it looks bad when the engine bay is a different color as the car.

And the AT200 actually has a taller fifth gear, so I'll be cruising at lower RPM when I'm on the freeway. Plus, my AE101 C52 is completely shot...it's just a matter of time before I can't shift at all anymore...stupid weak C-series trannies.

i usually like it to match as well. but with the yellow, i just thought of this pic. its just too much in my opinion. also yellow and black go well together. now if your engine bay was red, id say paint it. but then again its not my car



also, have you thought about getting a ae111 6-speed c-160 gearbox?

This post has been edited by celicaST: Feb 13, 2007 - 4:26 PM

[Coomer]

That is a lot of yellow, but that bay is also very busy, and has a lot of high-contrast blue.

Mine will be much more empty and won't have any blue at all really, so I think it'll look pretty nice.

But I'm unsure if I want to commit to doing this, as it's a TON of work.

Also, I don't think it's worth spending a lot of money for a C-160 tranny. Would be cool, but I can't afford it.

[phonex98]

"
# Replace flywheel with a lightweight one"

I think i read a very old post in which you complained about using a lightweight flywheel on your dailydriver because it was sort of a pain. Wasn't that you ?

[Coomer]

I think i read a very old post in which you complained about using a lightweight flywheel on your dailydriver because it was sort of a pain. Wasn't that you ?

That was me, but I mis-diagnosed my problem. The shaking and jolting when starting from a stop turned out to be my solid front motor mount, not the lightweight flywheel. Quite the expensive mis-diagnosis.

[phonex98]

Good to know I was going to put a light weight flywheel in but didn't as par your device... I guess ill go for it now when i change my clutch!

[Coomer]

Today I checked the timing again, and it looks like it's still advanced ten degrees to me. But it still pops occasionally when you freely rev it up high.

I also tried running with my nice polished velocity stacks shown above, and the car hesitated and had less power at low RPMs, and didn't seem much faster up high. So I went back to the stock plastic velocity stacks, and I think I'm just going to stick with those.

I can't decide if I want them to point up towards the hood, or down towards the ground though.

Anyway, I'm off to work, but I've got some pictures to post up later.

[JesterDC]

I can't decide if I want them to point up towards the hood, or down towards the ground though.

I say up, just cause the first thing that came to mind was how race cars utilize and augment the vacuum created under a car to create more downforce for better handling, and vacuums tend to suck...do you want your car to suck?

oh and btw awesome work!

[Coomer]

I do want my car to suck...massive amounts of air that is. I've got some photos as promised.



Some of the stuff that I no longer need in my engine bay.



And the ensuing mess that was previously hidden by the intake stuff.



The engine bay, with the AE101 factory velocity stacks. When I finish the bay I'll paint them all black, and possibly get two more so they can all be the same.



There's the AE101 velocity stack compared to my aftermarket velocity stack.



And finally, my working vacuum line setup. The little line with the screw in the end was the uncapped one that was hidden away and causing all my problems.

[JesterDC]

A little orginization would not be a bad thing, lol, and having all the wires tucked away and organized could make diagnosing problems easier, PLUS it would make your car that much More Awesome

[Coomer]

A little orginization would not be a bad thing, lol, and having all the wires tucked away and organized could make diagnosing problems easier, PLUS it would make your car that much More Awesome

Yeah, it'll all be organized and clean soon. Though I think having wires tucked away will make diagnosing problems harder. That said, every joint is soldered and heat shrunk well, so I don't think I'll ever have any problems.

I need a break from school and programming, so I may pull the motor this weekend and begin work over the three day weekend. The worst part will be removing the stupid fenders and pulling axles.

Also, I'm wondering if anyone would be interested in an AT200 to AE101 conversion harness, along with a '93.5+ AE101 ECU, AFM, coil, and ignitor. Let me know if anyone thinks they'd be interested.

[x_itchy_b_x]

i read some where that they intentionally stagger the velocity stacks.
it had to do with the invisible funnel of air and its more turbulent when they are closer together because the air cant decide which stack wants it more so its being torn between the two nearest ones. if you stagger it the air is being pulled to one source instead of being torn between two hard to explain ill see if i can find the article.

picture water going down a sink. now put two drains side by side.
the vortexes collide and lose there spin and the drains just kinda fight between each other on who gets to suck down the vortex.

[Coomer]

Well, they're sure not staggered much.

I was under the impression that they were designed differently to fit inside the plenum. The two black ones are the ones that are made to go on cylinders 1 and 4, which is where the manifold slants in, while the maroon ones are made to go on cylinders 2 and 3. I have them the way they are now because a black one will not clear the throttle cable when it's aimed up, but a maroon one will.

[x_itchy_b_x]

Well, they're sure not staggered much.

I was under the impression that they were designed differently to fit inside the plenum. The two black ones are the ones that are made to go on cylinders 1 and 4, which is where the manifold slants in, while the maroon ones are made to go on cylinders 2 and 3. I have them the way they are now because a black one will not clear the throttle cable when it's aimed up, but a maroon one will.

one could make the argument, maybe the plenum was designed to fit the stacks. not the stacks for the plenum.
ill see if i can find the article.
in any case im sure the benefits if any are minimal and your setup is amazing!

These have the shortest velocity stacks. Each airbox has two short stacks, and two long ones. Once you have 2 boxes, you will have two full sets of velocity stacks to help you achieve the best powerband down the road.

this isn't from the article im still searching for it.

This post has been edited by x_itchy_b_x: Feb 16, 2007 - 3:13 PM

[Coomer]

Interesting...that doesn't seem like it'd be an optimal setup, as the stacks are different lengths. That means that two of the cylinders will get different intake air (the longer the stack, the lower the tuned RPM will be) than the other two.

Though your mention of competing for the same air makes sense as well.

It seems like the optimal setup would be to instead use some sort of curved stacks and point them in different directions, like this:



If money were no object, I'd definitely have stacks like those, but they're probably a custom job or some expensive JDM setup.

What I could try, I suppose, is pointing two of the stacks down, but that'd be ugly, and the stacks would be drawing in different air temperatures, so the temperature that the IAT sensor returns would be wrong for two of the cylinders, regardless of where it's placed.

[95CelicaST]

A friend of mine has velosity stacks, and his are equal length. 2 different lengths doesn't make much sence.

[Coomer]

Yesterday I went ahead and started working on the car to clean up the bay. I pulled more of the car apart and pulled the motor.

No process photos, but here's what it looked like a few minutes after I got done pulling the motor.



But the garage was a mess, so today I went ahead and cleaned it so I'll have room to work and can find stuff and whatnot.





And the motor out of the car. That's one dirty 4A-GE.



The engine bay is also filthy, and ugly. That will change soon.



That's it for now. I may begin cleaning the engine bay tomorrow in preparation for paint, but we'll see.

[x_itchy_b_x]

LOL coomer im cleaning my bay out so it looks like your "dirty one" lol
when you clean that mess up its gunna look AMAZING!! jeeze.

[Coomer]

I ended up coming home last night, so I wasn't able to work on the car anymore today, but I've been planning some stuff.

Here's a tentative list of what I need to order:

• JUN/Toda Flywheel (I want a quality chromoly one, so I'm stuck getting a 200mm one unless I spend a fortune)
• New Clutch (not sure what I want to go with just yet)
• OEM AT200 Axle Seals
• New Battery (something small, Odyssey or Buddy Club)
• Remote Battery Charging Terminals
• Battery Kill Switch
• New Velocity Stacks (either a set of AE101 OEM stacks or some longer aftermarket ones)
• New Fuel Filter (Sentra SE-R OEM Nissan filter)

[playr158]

looking good coomer

but actually the 2 sized velocity stacks does VERY well up to 14,000 rpm i might add
most of our sport/racing bikes have the 2 outter stacks shorter and 2 inner stacks longer. Though i'm not completely sure of the reason. I remember reading about it on a GIXXER forum awhile ago. I'm sure you will work something out

keep it goin!

[Coomer]

Last night I made some good progress.

I removed the sideskirts, fenders, wipers and the panel beneath them, more stuff from the engine bay, and separated stuff from the engine.



There's the engine bay in its current state.



Ugly A/C line connector...I don't know if it's worth pulling the dash and all the heater and a/c stuff just to remove this.



The C52...as you can tell, I'm not a big fan of Toyota C52 trannies.



The motor with some stuff removed...note the triangular-shaped intake port. This means my motor is a post-'93.5 motor with the better flowing intake ports. And I always thought it was pre-'93.5 based on my throttle linkage...



Speaking of the throttle linkage, there's the intake manifold off of the car. It's filthy and will be cleaned up soon.



I removed the fuse box wiring from the black fuse box itself and pushed it into this area...I'm thinking I'll relocate the fuse box down here, but I'm not sure yet.

Today I removed the flywheel, clutch, and some accessories from the motor and put it on an engine holder so I can clean it up. No pics though...it was too cold and snowing too hard for me to move from inside the nice warm house just to go take pictures. But soon I'll begin cleaning all of this stuff and prepping the engine bay for paint.

[97lestyousay]

The C52...as you can tell, I'm not a big fan of Toyota C52 trannies.

X2 C52s are junk. Looks like you have made some major progress.
I can't wait till meet season.

[celicast3sgte]

nice work man

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

Nice progress, as usual Coomer. btw, what's so bad about the C52s?

[Coomer]

Nice progress, as usual Coomer. btw, what's so bad about the C52s?

They're just not very durable...my second gear synchros have gone bad on both of them that I've had, and my third gear synchro is bad as well on the more recent one that I just pulled off the motor. I might tear apart the tranny just for kicks and see what those synchros look like on the inside if I have some spare time.

[Bitter]

no more teef on em :lol:

[97lestyousay]

Nice progress, as usual Coomer. btw, what's so bad about the C52s?

The one in my ae92 has a bent shift fork and no 3rd or 4th gear atm.
The third gear syncro was bad in it when I bought it. The guys on the
AE92 website say if you are going to do a lot of auto-xing learn how
to rebuild one yourself or have a pallet of them laying around.
The one in my celica the second gear syncro is on its way out.
This site has a rebuild article in the tech section, might be of some use.
http://www.ae92gts.com/home.html

This post has been edited by 97lestyousay: Feb 24, 2007 - 10:27 PM

[Drew-887]

What trans do you plan on using if the C52 is junk?

This post has been edited by Drew-887: Feb 26, 2007 - 12:55 AM

[lagos]

coomer looks WAY to clean for having just worked on his car

[Coomer]

What trans do you plan on using if the C52 is junk?

Another C52...unfortunately...perhaps I'll learn how to rebuild trannies and install new synchros.

coomer looks WAY to clean for having just worked on his car

Haha, I always go inside and clean up first...don't wanna get any dirt or grease on the nice camera.

[Coomer]

Today in class I was bored, so I drew up my basic wiring schematic for my new harness. It should be nice when it's all said and done. Just have to figure out what exactly I need to order as far as connectors go.

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

^^You're a pretty big dork, man. Good job on all that, I know I couldn't do it.

[hitcachi]

Hey Chris, I havent been on the site in awhile, and i was keeping track of this thread before, so I just was curious to know if you still had the hesitation and idle problems? If not, what did you do to fix them? Sorry for not reading the thread right now, I'm kind of in a hurry to get out the door and i just wanted to get this posted. Thanks.

[95CelicaST]

I have that sweatshirt... well jacket... whatever it is..

I was wondering the same as Art about why you were so clean!

[Coomer]

^^You're a pretty big dork, man. Good job on all that, I know I couldn't do it.

Thanks.

Hey Chris, I havent been on the site in awhile, and i was keeping track of this thread before, so I just was curious to know if you still had the hesitation and idle problems? If not, what did you do to fix them? Sorry for not reading the thread right now, I'm kind of in a hurry to get out the door and i just wanted to get this posted. Thanks.

Yep, it's fixed. There's info in my previous posts.

I have that sweatshirt... well jacket... whatever it is..

I was wondering the same as Art about why you were so clean!

I love that jacket...so warm. And yeah, I always go up and get cleaned up before I take pictures, because I don't want to get the camera dirty.

[Coomer]

Tonight all I really got done was getting the dash off...which wasn't fun.



There's the interior with the dash off...does anyone have any pointers on removing the A/C unit?



There's my clutch disc removed from the motor. Anyone know what causes those springs to look like that? Would that cause problems shifting?





There are a couple shots of the motor on the stand...note how dirty it is...it'll be clean soon.

I came back to Ellensburg tonight to go to my friend's 21-run, so no more work on the car tomorrow, but I'll hopefully work on it more this weekend.

[Bitter]

looks like the clutch springs all hit something, any faint marks on the flywheel or flywheel bolt heads?

This post has been edited by Bitter: Mar 1, 2007 - 8:30 AM

[WannabeGT4]

I had a problem like that with the clutch in my turbo coupe. It was caused by one of the flywheel bolts backing itself out. Shifting got tougher and tougher until the clutch disc was pretty much locked against the pressure plate. I'm now much more liberal with the Loctite.

[playr158]

the A/C unit comes out pretty easily....

bolts on top and bottom + some connecting the 3 sections.....but i think the middle one normally will pop out first then the rest kinda just follow and fall off