lotus engine Options

[celiman5]

hey i was just curious but would a lotus engine be able to fit and run in our celicas since the engine is toyota based. i know it would be super expensive, but i was just wondering when i was reading a magazine with a lotus in there that, would it be possible.

[purplegt4]

it's a beefed 2zz-ge. maybe search around the site for that.

[j0e_p3t]

its the same engine as the 7gc gts. imo, too much work and money for only 185 hp.

[jdg371]

Lotus Elise is 190hp

you could get that engine from any Celica GTS [00+] Matrix XRS, Vibe, Corolla XRS

If you want to swap a 2ZZGE get one without DBW it will be less of a hassle with wiring. They have around 160whp and the best bang for the buck mod is a PFC.

A Celica GTS with basic I/H/E PFC will run mid 14s

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

I think it's a good option for a swap. Very debatable. There are a good many threads about it.

[Bitter]

http://videos.streetfire.net/search/coroll...8630172cf8d.htm

that always makes my pants tight.

This post has been edited by Bitter: Feb 4, 2007 - 9:43 PM

[JesterDC]

The 2ZZ is an extremely peaky engine, it has NO bottem end because it was built by Yamaha. The ZZ engines are pretty much low-revving, 4-cyl, motorcycle engines

[playr158]

someone needs to swap in a hyabusa engine into their celica that would be sweeet

[BLINKYxMUNKEY]

someone needs to swap in a hyabusa engine into their celica that would be sweeet

Turboed. Mmmm. Sounds good.

[playr158]

someone needs to swap in a hyabusa engine into their celica that would be sweeet

Turboed. Mmmm. Sounds good.

yes...chain driven just use a solid rear w/a single gear like a four wheeler

[Bitter]

The 2ZZ is an extremely peaky engine, it has NO bottem end because it was built by Yamaha. The ZZ engines are pretty much low-revving, 4-cyl, motorcycle engines

the zz engine is all toyota, the G heads are the yamaha part. the 2zzge has a powerband similar to a 1zzfe below 5000 rpm. most G headed engines are higher revving engines, because yes the G heads do have SOME similar characteristics to motorcycle engines, but they also have alot thats NOT in common.

[JesterDC]

The 2ZZ is an extremely peaky engine, it has NO bottem end because it was built by Yamaha. The ZZ engines are pretty much low-revving, 4-cyl, motorcycle engines

the zz engine is all toyota, the G heads are the yamaha part. the 2zzge has a powerband similar to a 1zzfe below 5000 rpm. most G headed engines are higher revving engines, because yes the G heads do have SOME similar characteristics to motorcycle engines, but they also have alot thats NOT in common.

And even though the 2zz revs ok for a CAR engine, it dosen't rev nearly high enough to make a decent powerband with the way its heads were desighned.

Think about it like this, Car engines rev to 6-7,000-ish on average, while most performance motorcycle engines rev to +11,000, and then the fact that the 2zz was supposed to be a performance engine comes into play. If the desighner desighns a head for a 11,000 rpm engine and is then asked to make a head for toyota, chances are it's going to be very characteristic of the motorcycle head...

here's a 2zz dyno

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

So what's the problem with the motor? It's 160whp in a 2400-2500lbs car. Sounds like a good idea. If you just drive around town, it's probably not for you, but then neither is a turbo.

btw: That can't be a acurate messure of torque from that motor. There's no way it goes from 113 down to 97, and then back up to 120.

This post has been edited by Bigmeanbulldog55: Feb 5, 2007 - 8:07 PM

[Kwanza26]

And even though the 2zz revs ok for a CAR engine, it dosen't rev nearly high enough to make a decent powerband with the way its heads were desighned.

Think about it like this, Car engines rev to 6-7,000-ish on average, while most performance motorcycle engines rev to +11,000, and then the fact that the 2zz was supposed to be a performance engine comes into play. If the desighner desighns a head for a 11,000 rpm engine and is then asked to make a head for toyota, chances are it's going to be very characteristic of the motorcycle head...

You sir... are highly generalizing the way this engine, or any performance n/a 4 cylinder makes power. If you think 160whp @ 8000 rpms is bad... well... haha. If you think torque peak at 6500 rpms is bad... well... haha. Guess you never raced a car before huh? Low-end torque is fine and dandy if you like to drive around town and act like you're fast... get some groceries and such and such... but if you want to drive a car with track capable engine AND still be able to drive around town... well... not a lot of 4 cylinders will out-perform the 2ZZ. The only time you should talk about low-end torque is when you have an engine bigger than 3 liters... or a big fat turbo.

FYI... almost all of the Toyota heads have some sort of Yamaha input if not completely yamaha designed... a couple of them are pretty much Yahama designed PERIOD. 3SGE heads are all labeled YAMAHA... 1/2JZGE heads... Yamaha... 20V 4AGE... Yamaha. That's like... pretty much all of Toyota's sport engines huh?

This post has been edited by Kwanza26: Feb 5, 2007 - 8:08 PM

[Kwanza26]

So what's the problem with the motor? It's 160whp in a 2400-2500lbs car. Sounds like a good idea. If you just drive around town, it's probably not for you, but then neither is a turbo.

btw: That can't be a acurate messure of torque from that motor. There's no way it goes from 113 down to 97, and then back up to 120.

This is a worse looking dyno graph than usual... but it's pretty typical the way lift works. Even TVIS shows a dip in torque during the crossover... but typically the torque starts to dip as the primary cams reach their maximum efficiency then the lift lobes cause a bit of overlap resulting in a slight torque dip... then it picks up again as the air catches up to the engine... not to mention fuelling has the catch up also. It's not really noticeable though... cause when lift hits... (VTEC!) the engine screams and you pretty much feel an instant jolt of about 50hp...

This post has been edited by Kwanza26: Feb 5, 2007 - 8:13 PM

[JesterDC]

So what's the problem with the motor? It's 160whp in a 2400-2500lbs car. Sounds like a good idea. If you just drive around town, it's probably not for you, but then neither is a turbo.

btw: That can't be a acurate messure of torque from that motor. There's no way it goes from 113 down to 97, and then back up to 120.

This is a worse looking dyno graph than usual... but it's pretty typical the way lift works. Even TVIS shows a dip in torque during the crossover... but typically the torque starts to dip as the primary cams reach their maximum efficiency then the lift lobes cause a bit of overlap resulting in a slight torque dip... then it picks up again as the air catches up to the engine... not to mention fuelling has the catch up also. It's not really noticeable though... cause when lift hits... (VTEC!) the engine screams and you pretty much feel an instant jolt of about 50hp...

It's not a baaaad engine, it just does not live up to the expectaions most had for this engine(The whole point of this engines existance was to beat out all competition, didn't really happen). If I had a 7th gen Celica or Mrk III MR2 withthis engine already in place, I would be happy I just do not believe this engine is a good canidate for a swap other than the "Hey, look what I did" factor.

Yes, that dyno is really crappy, a good check to see if a dyno is real is to see if HP and Tourque intersect at 5252rpm, HP and Torque are derivatives of eachother, and no matter what HP=Torque at 5252rpm

[Bitter]

when the lift point is lowered to 5700 rpm and the redline raised to 8700 rpm then the engine really starts to shine, that more like how yamaha had designed it to be ran, but for durability, warranty, and emissions reasons toyota raised lift and lowered redline.

[purplegt4]

that was only for the corolla xrs motor right?

[Bitter]

that was only for the corolla xrs motor right?

its the same damned motor, same way i have the ST motor and GT's have the Camry motor.

[Negative]

Yeah but there is something different about the ECU that gives it less HP or something. I'm not sure of the specifics but a guy in our Toyota club was bitching about how the Matrix XRS and the Celica GTS got 20 more HP or something than his Corolla XRS.
IDK - never really gave a $hit but I assume the motor is the same.

[Consynx]

retuned 2zz to get 10more hp or w/e and raised redline. . .

no biggy.

7th gen is lighter than us, not the best idea for a swap IMO, especially since the CR is high.
good choice if you aren't trying to set any speed records, but be a peppy NA...

[Bitter]

Yeah but there is something different about the ECU that gives it less HP or something. I'm not sure of the specifics but a guy in our Toyota club was bitching about how the Matrix XRS and the Celica GTS got 20 more HP or something than his Corolla XRS.
IDK - never really gave a $hit but I assume the motor is the same.

you can retune that with the hydra ems standalone like the in the vid, any 2zzge can put down those power numbers with similar mods to that one from the video.

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

7th gen is lighter than us

That's what I thought too, put it's not true. The 7th gen is listed as 2425 for the hatch. And the 6th gen is listed as 2755 Vert, 2395 Coupe, and 2415 Hatch. So if that's your reason for not doing the swap, it's time to find a new one. I'll always back up that motor just because I like high reving NA power.
6th Gen
7th Gen

[urbandork]

7th gen is lighter than us

That's what I thought too, put it's not true. The 7th gen is listed as 2425 for the hatch. And the 6th gen is listed as 2755 Vert, 2395 Coupe, and 2415 Hatch. So if that's your reason for not doing the swap, it's time to find a new one. I'll always back up that motor just because I like high reving NA power.
6th Gen
7th Gen

r those numbers real cus i always thought 6gc hatches were 2580 or at least thats what edmunds, autotrader, and kbb have them at

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

7th gen is lighter than us

That's what I thought too, put it's not true. The 7th gen is listed as 2425 for the hatch. And the 6th gen is listed as 2755 Vert, 2395 Coupe, and 2415 Hatch. So if that's your reason for not doing the swap, it's time to find a new one. I'll always back up that motor just because I like high reving NA power.
6th Gen
7th Gen

r those numbers real cus i always thought 6gc hatches were 2580 or at least thats what edmunds, autotrader, and kbb have them at

Those sites are showing higher numbers for the 6th gen, and KKB shows higher on the 7th. It shows 2560 for 6th and 2500 for 7th. I think these weight differences would be lessend when going from an iron to aluminum block too. Only real way to check is to get cars and measure them, or get the specs from Toyota.

[Consynx]

iunno...
i can't find a site that lists all weights that i trust...
but from comparison, a s14 is 2800ish i believe
a mr2 is 2600ish i thought. . .
and i don't see a celica being lighter than a mr2, but i do see it being around a S14. . .

iunno though. . .

[JesterDC]

iunno...
i can't find a site that lists all weights that i trust...
but from comparison, a s14 is 2800ish i believe
a mr2 is 2600ish i thought. . .
and i don't see a celica being lighter than a mr2, but i do see it being around a S14. . .

iunno though. . .

Our engine alone is within a couple lbs. of a LS1 The 5SFE is an Iron block I4 and weighs around 420lbs while the LS1 is an all aluminum V8!

[Bitter]

iirc the 6th gen celica hatch and 7th gen corolla sedan weigh almost the same.

[lagos]

if you want a 2zz powered celica, why not just buy a used 7th gen? they are pretty cheap these days and you would be getting a newer car. you would get pretty much the same performance as you would if you swapped it, but without the hassle.

[devilsden97]

if you want a 2zz powered celica, why not just buy a used 7th gen? they are pretty cheap these days and you would be getting a newer car. you would get pretty much the same performance as you would if you swapped it, but without the hassle.

x2

the wireing from the zz motors to the sfe is just kinda...ever so slightly (sarcasm) harder then it should be.

i toyed with this idea, just the electrical alone will drive u bannanas

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

if you want a 2zz powered celica, why not just buy a used 7th gen? they are pretty cheap these days and you would be getting a newer car. you would get pretty much the same performance as you would if you swapped it, but without the hassle.

Because anyone who has driven a 7th gen knows that the only thing quality on that car is the motor. It's almost Kia quality. On top of that, you can still buy a wrecked car with a 2zzge motor and swap it cheaper than you could buy a nice GT-S Celica. If you had a sold 6th gen with bad motor, like I did, it wouldn't be a bad option. I rebuilt my 5sfe and am more than happy with it though. I mostly did that because I like racing SoloII and want to stay competitive in the STS class. If I swapped I would have moved to SM were I wouldn't stand a chance. But if I had just a street car, or had the money to build a nice SM class car, I would most likely use the 2zzge. I would be tossed up between the 4age and 2zzge for the race car though.

[lagos]

On top of that, you can still buy a wrecked car with a 2zzge motor and swap it cheaper than you could buy a nice GT-S Celica.

that depends on who is doing the swap. if have to pay somone to do the swap, then the costs would quickly add up. you would be better off selling the 6th gen and putting that money down on a 7th gen. then as a fun project you could go around replacing all the KIA parts on the 7th gen with aftermarket goodies.

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

On top of that, you can still buy a wrecked car with a 2zzge motor and swap it cheaper than you could buy a nice GT-S Celica.

that depends on who is doing the swap. if have to pay somone to do the swap, then the costs would quickly add up. you would be better off selling the 6th gen and putting that money down on a 7th gen. then as a fun project you could go around replacing all the KIA parts on the 7th gen with aftermarket goodies.

For a lot of poeple that probibly is the best option. Most are happy with the 7th gen quality and with slowly replacing everything. And most aren't going to do their own swaps. I would do my own swap. I could get the motor and trans for about $1000 together. Then add another $2000 for odds and ends. Plus the value of my car, which is something like $5000. That's $8K. You could probibly get a 7th gen for that, but you still wouldn't have the 6th gen quality on build. I figure it would be just as much work to stop the rattles in the 7th gen. I could live with the interior. Heck, it really might be a better rote to get a 7th gen and start building. I have no overwhelming love for the 6gcs. I love my car, but that's because it's mine. I still think that because my car is solid, if my motor was bad it wouldn't be a bad swap. Same thing as the 3sgte. The 3sgte is just better suited for drag racing in a Celica with out AWD. But, if you are going to compare the swaps, the 3sgte has a big leg up for a base or if intended on drag. But the 2zzge's better flowing head would make better power for other types of racing if it's in NA or turbo form. Eitherway, you're building the bottem end up. And an advantage to the 2zzge is you can get parts in America from your local auto parts store.

[purplegt4]

when the lift point is lowered to 5700 rpm and the redline raised to 8700 rpm then the engine really starts to shine, that more like how yamaha had designed it to be ran, but for durability, warranty, and emissions reasons toyota raised lift and lowered redline.

that was only for the corolla xrs motor right?

its the same damned motor, same way i have the ST motor and GT's have the Camry motor.

i was talking about: the lift point is lowered to 5700 rpm and the redline raised to 8700 rpm

i know its the same motor.

This post has been edited by purplegt4: Feb 11, 2007 - 12:34 AM

[block]

a 6th gen celica hatch is 2400lbs
a 6th gen celica coupe is 2300lbs
i dont know if it depend on the engine...maybe 5sfe is heavier than the 7afe? maybe

a 7th gen celica weighs 2400lbs

a 2nd gen mr2 weighs 2600lbs

mrs weighs like 2200lbs i think....that's what i've heard

acura integra weighs 2500lbs (i put this down cause people bitch about how light these dumb cars and how they weigh just like their brother civic and later find out they're not exactly light - how ignorant!).

a 6th gen celica is NOT heavy like the s13 or s14. my friend's s13 coupe weighed 2700lbs. pretty heavy if you ask me. a stock hatch is also 2700lbs (weighed stock at weigh station - this is for 89-94 240sx)

a 95-98 240sx weighs roughly 50lbs more than the last gen.

anyways i know because these cars had been weighed and saw em'...yes they respond well to mods unlike the 6gc but w/e....

the 2zz, imo, is a great motor...it responds well to mods. if you have money, anything is possible.... i also like the interior, very nice. the seats are incredibly nice and comfortable.

This post has been edited by block: Feb 11, 2007 - 9:36 PM

[SlickRick]

the 2zz in the Elise and Exige is the same, with just a more aggressive secondary cam shaft so the VVT-I kicks in a few hundred rpm sooner nothing crazy. But the 2zz has no low end TQ thats why u often see superchargers and not turbo charges on the 2zz, the Lotus Exige has a Supercharger on it, and is very detuned and makes about 230 hp and almost 170 foot pounds of tq. but all in all a very fun power plant 2 have in any light car.

[SpyderGS]

Sorry to bring up an old thread from a month ago, but for a definite accepted weight of any of these cars, check out the class spec sheets from SCCA or NASA. 7th gen celica is in ITR, 6gc might be in ITA or ITB, same with various gen mr2's(i haven't looked at them in a while), but they should all be in Production classes if that makes things easier...

Anyways, Don't trust what you read on Edmunds or KBB, although they may do independant weighing, you don't know if they weigh wet or a fully-optioned model or with golf clubs or whatever. SCCA lists base model dry weights.

Also, the 2zz is very competent for what it was designed for. It's comparable to a 4age(w/o TVIS) in the lower rev range, and beats it in the higher range. It's not as peaky as some people might think, only to those who prefer the torquey lethargic feel of low revving engines(my opinion:). And the Exige has an option package for the superchargerwhich, which is not really detuned at all actually. Standard Exiges are like a hardtop elise with better aero.

Once again, sorry for bringing up an old thread, I thought that since everybody had differing idea's about weight for these cars, at least some sanctioning auto racing body would have info we can all agree on.

p.s.
I campaign an FC rx7 in ITS so if you see me, say hi! I can't wear a 6gc decal since... well... ya know... mazda and toyota's don't mix well sometimes... but i love this site anyways!

[alltracman78]

the 2zz in the Elise and Exige is the same, with just a more aggressive secondary cam shaft so the VVT-I kicks in a few hundred rpm sooner nothing crazy.

There is no such thing as secondary camshafts in a 2ZZGE.
It has secondary cam LOBES.
Which have nothing to do with the VVTi.
The larger lobes are the L [Lift].
VVTi is adjustable valve timing and only valve timing.
The camshaft itself has nothing to do with when the timing is changed, or by how much.
The ECU determines this.

And the L has nothing to do with when it comes on either.
That is soley decided by the ECU. It has a set point programmed into it.

[SlickRick]

There is no such thing as secondary camshafts in a 2ZZGE.
It has secondary cam LOBES.
Which have nothing to do with the VVTi.
The larger lobes are the L [Lift].
VVTi is adjustable valve timing and only valve timing.
The camshaft itself has nothing to do with when the timing is changed, or by how much.
The ECU determines this.

And the L has nothing to do with when it comes on either.
That is soley decided by the ECU. It has a set point programmed into it.
[/quote]

i meant "lobes" each of the 2 cams have secondary profiles, which in the vvt-"i" are continuously variable. all lotus does is make some changes 2 the ECU and even out the hp and tq cuves.

[alltracman78]

i meant "lobes" each of the 2 cams have secondary profiles, which in the vvt-"i" are continuously variable. all lotus does is make some changes 2 the ECU and even out the hp and tq cuves.

But they're not....
The secondary lobes are one set profile.
The VVTi has NOTHING to do with the lobes. The lobes are the L [lift] and ONLY the L.
VVTi is on the end of the camshafts, where the cam gears are.
THAT is what is continuously variable.
And it varies the valve timing, not the lift. Or the secondary cam lobe.