hey read!!, well... Options

[jdmart]

on my celica i have a few mods and my cuisn tweaked with the timming a little bit and if u know what im talking bout the timming was set at 16 and it used to be at 5 and i noticed it gave it a lil more power and it kinda sounds a lil like its "caming". but it drives better and i have not noticed any problems at all..
what do u guys think about this i would like ur info......

[Batman722]

since you advanced the timing make sure you run at least 91+ octane gas or you'll get some knock.

[6gcSTVT]

How do you advance the timing on your own? I never thought of messing with it but now i'm interested.

[Batman722]

the 96+ distributors cannot be adjusted to advance timimg IIRC.

[j0e_p3t]

how about on my 95 st?

[jdmart]

How do you advance the timing on your own? I never thought of messing with it but now i'm interested.

well on my 94 i had my cuisn change the timming on he used a flash gun and all he did was losen 2 bolts from where the distributer is at and moved it i wanna say down. then he tested it out u will need a timming gun for this when u check u use the gun over by the pully area

[freakyre33c]

there is a marking on the timing gear and the block. the crucial pullys all have them, crank, cam, water pump ect. when the marks on the pulleys and the block are lined up the time is pretty well syncronized, and when your cuzin advanced the timing all he did was set the mark on the pully off from the mark on the block, all he is doing is changing the time that the valves in the head open and close.

This post has been edited by freakyre33c: Mar 10, 2007 - 8:56 PM

[6gcSTVT]

So by changing when the valve timing it won't hurt as long as you run a higher octane. My car is a 96 but has a california emmission distributor (retarded imo) but does that still make it unable to have its timing changed bc its a 96?

[Batman722]

So by changing when the valve timing it won't hurt as long as you run a higher octane. My car is a 96 but has a california emmission distributor (retarded imo) but does that still make it unable to have its timing changed bc its a 96?

correct.

[IllIllIll]

the 96+ distributors cannot be adjusted to advance timimg IIRC.

So If I get a 95 or early distributor I could advance my timing on my 97? Or will that not work because it's OBDII.

[Rayme]

there is a marking on the timing gear and the block. the crucial pullys all have them, crank, cam, water pump ect. when the marks on the pulleys and the block are lined up the time is pretty well syncronized, and when your cuzin advanced the timing all he did was set the mark on the pully off from the mark on the block, all he is doing is changing the time that the valves in the head open and close.

uh no, we're talking about ignition timing, not cam timing here!

And yes you can get gains noticable enough by advancing timing, the torque comes in a little bit earlier

This post has been edited by Rayme: Mar 11, 2007 - 4:49 PM

[6gcSTVT]

so why isn't this a first mod to be done with our cars? or does everyone just over look it? bc i didn't know about this till this topic got started!

EDIT: oh let me guess...not much in gains. Or not worth the time it takes to change the timing?


This post has been edited by 6gcSTVT: Mar 11, 2007 - 7:09 PM

[Rayme]

so why isn't this a first mod to be done with our cars? or does everyone just over look it? bc i didn't know about this till this topic got started!

EDIT: oh let me guess...not much in gains. Or not worth the time it takes to change the timing?

Can only be done on 94-95 of 6gc's. It does work but higher octane gas is recommended...in my 90 celica I used 14 degrees timing with stock gas, didn't knock..it should also improve gas mileage as each combustions bring a little more power (in the low rpms at least) without using more gas and air. But the higher octane gas kinda negates that effect eh?

This post has been edited by Rayme: Mar 11, 2007 - 9:08 PM

[jdmart]

so why isn't this a first mod to be done with our cars? or does everyone just over look it? bc i didn't know about this till this topic got started!

EDIT: oh let me guess...not much in gains. Or not worth the time it takes to change the timing?

Can only be done on 94-95 of 6gc's. It does work but higher octane gas is recommended...in my 90 celica I used 14 degrees timing with stock gas, didn't knock..it should also improve gas mileage as each combustions bring a little more power (in the low rpms at least) without using more gas and air. But the higher octane gas kinda negates that effect eh?

so ur saying not to use higher octain?

[Bitter]

if your doing advanced timing please atleast use 89. if you put the engine under high load it may knock, where as under less load it'll be ok on lower octane.

[jdmart]

if your doing advanced timing please atleast use 89. if you put the engine under high load it may knock, where as under less load it'll be ok on lower octane.

well i use the highest grade so i thinnk ill be ok

[Jen]

well, this is news to me. fascinating.

[Negative]

You can do it on a 96+ but a few minutes later the ECU is just gonna put it back to stock. One of the reasons people don't just reccomend this is because you can harm you're motor if you advance it too much. Some people just get overeager with it.

This post has been edited by Negative: Mar 13, 2007 - 7:10 AM

[6strngs]

you say it used to be at 5 degrees? oem specs says it should be 10. I advanced mine to 15 and am running 91 octane. haven't had any problems, and I noticed a difference. I'm thinking of doing it to 17 degrees now.

btw, it's easy to change timing. basically, there was one bolt on my distributor. remove it, and then when the engine is running in diagnostics mode (jumper wire between TE1 and E1 of your diagnostics box) just have one person rotate the whole distributor clockwise while one person has a timing light and is checking the timing. put the bolt back in, and you're done.

[jdmart]

you say it used to be at 5 degrees? oem specs says it should be 10. I advanced mine to 15 and am running 91 octane. haven't had any problems, and I noticed a difference. I'm thinking of doing it to 17 degrees now.

btw, it's easy to change timing. basically, there was one bolt on my distributor. remove it, and then when the engine is running in diagnostics mode (jumper wire between TE1 and E1 of your diagnostics box) just have one person rotate the whole distributor clockwise while one person has a timing light and is checking the timing. put the bolt back in, and you're done.

yeah it was set at 5 degrees. well for some reason mine has 2 bolts instead of one and i run 93 octane tell mehow the 17 degrees work out! i might do it too!

[praetor]

so the ecu on the 96+ will override it? i was always under the impression that you had the 'base' timing and the ecu would only retard if there was knock

[tonytutino]

here's a how-to for you kids, i got mine working rather nicely


http://www.toyotacelicaonline.com/timing.htm

[jdmart]

here's a how-to for you kids, i got mine working rather nicely


http://www.toyotacelicaonline.com/timing.htm

what does jumping the terminals mean? i didnt do that. i have mine set to 25 degress i tried the others not satisfied so i went with this one using 93 octain it does eat up my gas but its worth the extra power. just wish how much hp i gained from doing this.

[6strngs]

here's a how-to for you kids, i got mine working rather nicely


http://www.toyotacelicaonline.com/timing.htm

what does jumping the terminals mean? i didnt do that. i have mine set to 25 degress i tried the others not satisfied so i went with this one using 93 octain it does eat up my gas but its worth the extra power. just wish how much hp i gained from doing this.

it means taking a jumper wire (or just a paperclip bent to the right shape) and opening up the little diagnostics box in the engine bay and connecting the TE1 and E1 terminals to put your car into a diagnostics mode.

I'm still at 18 degrees but I just moved down from 91 to 89 octane gas yesterday and haven't heard any pinging or anything. honestly, I just couldn't afford the $3.49/gallon which is how much it costs for 91 now here.

[stephen_lee]

here's a how-to for you kids, i got mine working rather nicely


http://www.toyotacelicaonline.com/timing.htm

what does jumping the terminals mean? i didnt do that. i have mine set to 25 degress i tried the others not satisfied so i went with this one using 93 octain it does eat up my gas but its worth the extra power. just wish how much hp i gained from doing this.

you have it set to 25!? i had mine there by accident(the guy that held the gun set the light wrong) and it knocked and pingged like crazy on 89 octane! (i usually use 93 though..) but now its set at ~16. i noticed a huge Difference...
btw, it shouldn't take extra gas.. your ecu could be picking up some knocks and overriding it to 10 or less BTD

This post has been edited by stephen_lee: Apr 19, 2007 - 12:21 PM

[Bitter]

you have to set BASE timing, jumping those connectors sets the timing back to BASE with no advance or retard. he's not measuring base or setting base. he's just messing with timing at idle. without the pins jumped idle timing will advance and retard back and forth with load and rpm slightly. you just cannot set base timing with out putting the pcm into diagnostic mode!

[jdmart]

you have to set BASE timing, jumping those connectors sets the timing back to BASE with no advance or retard. he's not measuring base or setting base. he's just messing with timing at idle. without the pins jumped idle timing will advance and retard back and forth with load and rpm slightly. you just cannot set base timing with out putting the pcm into diagnostic mode!

so ur suggestions are to jump the terminals, but i still kinda want mine on 25 degress is this to high btw?, so jump the terminals then what cause i want mine in that setting just let it iddle or something?

[6strngs]

you have to set BASE timing, jumping those connectors sets the timing back to BASE with no advance or retard. he's not measuring base or setting base. he's just messing with timing at idle. without the pins jumped idle timing will advance and retard back and forth with load and rpm slightly. you just cannot set base timing with out putting the pcm into diagnostic mode!

so ur suggestions are to jump the terminals, but i still kinda want mine on 25 degress is this to high btw?, so jump the terminals then what cause i want mine in that setting just let it iddle or something?

just jump the terminals. if the car is running you'll hear the sound change when the terminals are jumped. then, while it's idling, set the timing. I wouldn't set it to 25 right off the bat though. because if you set it to 25 while the car wasn't in diagnositcs mode you could've been really setting it to 15 or 30 or something else without knowing it. so try 20, drive it for a day or two, if there is no pinging or rough idle or anything, then move it up again. if there is pinging or rough idle you better move it back down again though.

[kgrande]

Anyone tried running on ethanol blend + advancing the timing? Here in Australia we've got E10, which is cheaper than regular and has a higher octane rating. From what I've read Shell is selling on with 100 octane.

From what I understand the performance is pretty much unaffected by switching to E10, but the potential for advancing the timing is interesting.

[Bitter]

Anyone tried running on ethanol blend + advancing the timing? Here in Australia we've got E10, which is cheaper than regular and has a higher octane rating. From what I've read Shell is selling on with 100 octane.

From what I understand the performance is pretty much unaffected by switching to E10, but the potential for advancing the timing is interesting.

we've had that blend here in the midwest united states for years, theres little to no performance increase from the ethanol alone since here when its blended the octane of the ethanol is taken into account. slightly less fuel mileage, a little more corrosive, same price (or a little more when its been a bad corn crop).

too much timing, even if you dont have ping, wont make more power. you can get gains advancing to a point, but beyond that you'll make no more power or loose power. best bet is to do a little advance at a time and stop when you get ping or stop feeling gains. 15 feels good to me, 20 had no more pull than 15. but the GT is a different motor, but start off slow. higher octane with higher compression, more timing advance, and maybe a better pair of cams, then you could have a motor which would be able to use all 100 octane and not just be pissing away your money.

[jdmart]

ok i finnaly think i got it right thnx for the help people!!!

[mandrek]

bringing this one back from the dead.. ive done the seaches (i have 18 pages open on my desktop and i've read them all)

I LOVE!!!! all of the info that you all have provided here on the board reguarding advancing timeing on the 7afe (in particular), and it seems that most of you are running @89oct for the 5sfe w/ 15* advance, and @91 oct for the 7afe w/ 15* advance...

my question that has not been answered by reading all of these pages, pertaines to the fact that all i use is 93oct Shell V-power.. thats ALL i use (and when i do long road trips, where there is a chance that i cant get it, i always carry octain boost w/ me.).

so. with that in mind does any one els here run anything more advanced than 15-16* advanced on 93oct fuel? i was contemplating going to .. say... 18*advance.. but was not sure if that would be too far off the peek of the optimum effect of the timeing parabola... (did i lose anyone yet?) i do plann on taking it slow, and doing a test and error tune, starting at 15*advanced. and going up from there.. but as we all know, the but dyno is'ent exact.. probably not even enough to feel the diference between 15* and 18*..

has anyone dynoed on 93oct @ 18* advanced???
or 17, or 16, or even the concensused 15*???

i doubt that i would get any knock or pinging w/ 18* on the 93 oct fuel... but i guess what im REALLY wondering is... even IF the fuel suppressed the knock, is the timeing parabola small?

( a 10* spred factory setting of 10*advanced to say 20*advanced,... which coud explaine the common 15* advance to feeling like its right on the point of the parabola thus producing the best power.. and takeing this to be true if i set to 18*advanced im actualy falling off the other side of the peek and 18* would do nothing better.)

or large?

(with a 20* spred factory setting of 10*advanced to say 30*advanced,. and takeing this to be true if i set to 18*advanced im actualy still climbing closer to the optimum ignition timing point of the parabola peek and 18* would do something better.)

????

Any more proof (dynos and dyno charts) personal expiriences, advice, constructive critisysm on my theory, ect ANYTHING!!! would be greatly apriciated...

thank you in advance <<lol)

[mandrek]

OH yeah, and forgot to state.. i have a 95 st auto ty

[mandrek]

no one have any help or info for me??

[TRD_GT]

Here in London all the tuners run their cars on Shell V Power,its got a 97 octane rating..its mental..

[mandrek]

sweet that would be nice.....

but still curiouse about my Q.. does no one on this forum run 93 oct and run more than 15* advanced w/ any sort of gain???

[6strngs]

I had run 18 degrees on 91 octane with no problems. it felt a little faster than 15 degrees, but barely.

[mandrek]

thnx 6strings ill give it a try as soon as i get my car back on the road, and ill let u all know.

[FortuneCookie]

To be honest, in my opinion, advancing the ignition timing isn't really worth it. You are pumping more costly gas, use more gas, work the engine harder, wearing the engine faster, high probability of something going wrong, and only gain 1-2 ponies to the wheel with better engine responce. Feeling faster is one thing. Actually going faster is another.

[mandrek]

To be honest, in my opinion, advancing the ignition timing isn't really worth it. You are pumping more costly gas, use more gas, work the engine harder, wearing the engine faster, high probability of something going wrong, and only gain 1-2 ponies to the wheel with better engine responce. Feeling faster is one thing. Actually going faster is another.

true Only to an extent... the extra wear and tear is only if u dont use good gas... (which i only use V-power, cuz i want to keep may car for a long time)

u dont actualy use more gas... your making better use of it.

and correct if im wrong, but there are members here that have gotten more than just 2 whp...

and one more point id like to point out.. most of the members here are tuning the ignition timeing becuase we can, due to the car running PIG rich stock.. so migh as well get some power out of it wile your at it

[6strngs]

The air fuel ratio takes time to burn. if you light the spark plug at 10 degrees BTDC then by the time the mixture has finished burning you are probably around 20-ish degrees ATDC, this is your peak pressure and it actually pushes the piston on it's way down to help spin the crank which helps lift the other pistons up on their strokes and it just happens over and over. now, if you light that spark a little earlier and you can make peak pressure a few degrees earlier it helps push the piston down faster thus creating more power. You run into problems when you advance too far so that you reach peak pressure at 0 degrees or even BTDC so while the piston is still on it's way up, the explosion pushes it down and the piston has to fight against that extreme force. this is detonation and will kill an engine pretty quick.

But, a gasoline's octane number tells us it's ability to resist detonation so the higher the octane, the less chance of detonation which is why it's safer to use a higher octane when advancing the timing.

[FortuneCookie]

Ok dudes... After 3 months of driving with advanced timing to 16 degrees, I would have to say I LOVE THE RESPONCE AND GAIN! BUT!!! I have to go back to 10 degrees stock becuz I drive 60+ miles everyday to and from work. And that is causing me to pump $35 of 93 octane gas every THREE days! Looked at my budget, kinda hurts me on the long run. This is a GREAT way for gains for stock. But not a great if you drive it too much.

[GriffGirl]

Something is seriously wrong with your car if you're only getting 180 miles on an ST. I drive 40 miles a day and average 365 miles to a tank in cold weather w/stop & go traffic. Unless of course you're driving 60 miles EACH way in which case OOPS.

[808celica]

WTF!!!!!!! i checked my timing with the gun and mines is set @ 15 i think..............DAMN!!!!!!!! the whole time i didnt know...........CRAP is that bad??? i always use 89 octane cuz gas here in hawaii blows how do i adjust if a little closer to 10??? i dont know if i have knock..........but my cars seems to idle a little rough but it doesnt drop past 800rpms..............it just feels rough...........damn maybe i have a slight knock..........CRAP!!!!!!

This post has been edited by 808celica: Jan 9, 2008 - 5:39 PM

[FortuneCookie]

Lol. Well GriffGirl, 60+ miles everyday, 95% of it highway miles. And btw 808Celica, you can use 89 octane gas for 15 degrees. People have done it and have nothing wrong with their motor. But if you turn it a tad higher, I would seriously recommend 91 or 93 octane.

http://www.toyotacelicaonline.com/timing.htm

[6strngs]

what's the price difference between 87 and 93? like 0.25? so you're spending aproximately $3 more by filling up with premium? people are willing to drop like $200 on an intake and $500 on an exhaust, this costs you ~$7 a week and gives similar gains to those mods. seems like a good deal to me. but w/e

[FortuneCookie]

Well I'm not one of those people who are welling to spend $200 on an intake that does the same thing as a cheap ebay one for $30. But you are missing the point here 6Strngs. The higher the octane, the better the fuel burn and less chance of detonation. That means alot more gas consumption, and that means the more you pay for gasoline in a shorter amount of time that you would pay for a 87 octane. PLUS the timing advancement, which would equal to more money spent on gasoline overall. Then you add alot of highway miles which equals even more money spent on gasoline. Get my drift? Lol.

[6strngs]

Well I'm not one of those people who are welling to spend $200 on an intake that does the same thing as a cheap ebay one for $30. But you are missing the point here 6Strngs. The higher the octane, the better the fuel burn and less chance of detonation. That means alot more gas consumption, and that means the more you pay for gasoline in a shorter amount of time that you would pay for a 87 octane. PLUS the timing advancement, which would equal to more money spent on gasoline overall. Then you add alot of highway miles which equals even more money spent on gasoline. Get my drift? Lol.

actually, the higher the octane, the slower it burns. I'm sure you could get away with 89 octane for 16 degrees BTDC. but if you really think you get better gas milage with retarded timing and lower octane, then go for it. the only way you get better milage is because the car is slower so you won't be as inclined to put your foot into the gas pedal.

[Bitter]

i've been watching knock numbers on my safc2 with 15deg and 89 octane. i had my injectors cleaned at work on the machine and my knock counts dropped alot, im seeing the max counts at or under 100 now during WOT pulls in 2nd gear to 6500 rpm. the pcm is pretty fast to pull timing which i can see on the safc because knock only flits up for a split second and then is gone. thats the PCM detecting knock and then immediately pulling some timing to control it. i dont feel like messing with the timing anymore, 15 deg is enough for me and 89 octane isnt such a big price jump from 87.

[FortuneCookie]

actually, the higher the octane, the slower it burns.

Are you sure? How come everytime I put 93 octane in my gasoline tank, I tend to burn more gas? Especially with my Prelude which eats up gas like a mother with 93 octane! Even my buddy told me the higher the octane, the more it will burn. Someone needs to try it with STOCK settings. See how many miles they would get from 87 octane, and then see how many miles with 93 octane. Just test like 1 or 5 gallons.

This post has been edited by FortuneCookie: Jan 11, 2008 - 12:24 AM

[6strngs]

I'm taking college classes with a major in automotive technology. One class I took last semester was titled "Fuel induction and emissions" in which we talked about gasoline and all the gasses that come out the tail pipe and what they are and how they get there. We covered timing, and the properties of gasoline in that class. I'm sure that higher octanes burn slower. But, what I mean by burns slower does not mean better gas milage. it burns slower in the combustion chamber giving it a better resistance to knock.

Peak pressure, or the point where the pressure in the combustion chamber becomes the greatest to where it forces the piston down, thus spinning the crank, thus moving the other pistons and keeping the car running, should be around 10-20 degrees After top dead center (ATDC). Now, gasoline takes a few milliseconds to burn (approx 2-3 mS) so you fire the spark plug before the piston reaches top dead center (BTDC) so that a few mS later when the piston is on it's way down, the explosion actually occurs. Imagine pedalling a bicycle, when the pedal comes up and around you wait until it's a little bit past the top and then push down on it with your foot and it gives you propulsion. now, if you were to step on the pedal when it was already halfway through it's trip down, you wouldn't get as much power as if you stepped on it right as it passed the top mark. That's how advancing the timing gives you power. However, fire the spark plug too soon and the explosion will happen too soon happen while the piston is still on it's way up and make it hard for the piston to complete it's revolution. That's knock. at idle, we could get away with advanced timing, but as you drive, your timing is always changing, and sometimes under high load, such as wide open throttle, it'll be so advanced it'll begin to knock, which is why we use higher octane gas. This way the gasoline takes longer to burn and preventing knock by delaying the peak pressure slightly.

That said, I don't really see how a higher octane gas could give you worse gas milage. except maybe because it burns slower, it doesn't give as complete of a burn because it's doesn't have enough time to finish, and so more of it just gets wasted out the tailpipe, but that's the only thing I can think of.

[FortuneCookie]

Regardless of all the classes you take and notes you want. I'm still getting lower mileage out of higher octane. Maybe like GriffGirl said, something is wrong with my car. It isn't the average ST. It is quite quicker.

This post has been edited by FortuneCookie: Jan 11, 2008 - 3:05 AM

[Bitter]

if you're timing is retarded or is being retarded then higher octane will give lower fuel economy. double check what its set at, if the ecu is pulling timing all the time because its hearing knock (even with 93 you can knock) then fuel economy will be affected. the ecu works soo fast you never feel it or hear it unless its soo severe its causing damage. try getting your injectors cleaned by a shop with a machine and have the top end de-carboned.

[808celica]

Lol. Well GriffGirl, 60+ miles everyday, 95% of it highway miles. And btw 808Celica, you can use 89 octane gas for 15 degrees. People have done it and have nothing wrong with their motor. But if you turn it a tad higher, I would seriously recommend 91 or 93 octane.

http://www.toyotacelicaonline.com/timing.htm

now way imma leave it at 15` imma bring that shiz down to 10 or something...........maybe there's something wrong with my car?? could that be it??? he turned up the timing to hide a problem with the engine??

[6strngs]

Lol. Well GriffGirl, 60+ miles everyday, 95% of it highway miles. And btw 808Celica, you can use 89 octane gas for 15 degrees. People have done it and have nothing wrong with their motor. But if you turn it a tad higher, I would seriously recommend 91 or 93 octane.

http://www.toyotacelicaonline.com/timing.htm

now way imma leave it at 15` imma bring that shiz down to 10 or something...........maybe there's something wrong with my car?? could that be it??? he turned up the timing to hide a problem with the engine??

make sure you check your timing with the TE1 and E1 terminals in the diagnostic box jumped. my friend forgot to do that on his AE86 corolla and tried to advance it a little, then was having problems with a lack of power a little bit later, checked his timing and reset it to stock, but still had the same problem. then later found out he needed to do that, went back after jumping them, and saw his timing was retarded 15 degrees below spec!

[n1ckz0r]

I loled at this thread becuase of the confusion and how many people asked like the same question over and over just different ways.

[Rayme]

octane rating is a rating for the self-ignition properties of the gas..not how fast it burns...?
Maybe you should have mentionned that too.

I'm taking college classes with a major in automotive technology. One class I took last semester was titled "Fuel induction and emissions" in which we talked about gasoline and all the gasses that come out the tail pipe and what they are and how they get there. We covered timing, and the properties of gasoline in that class. I'm sure that higher octanes burn slower. But, what I mean by burns slower does not mean better gas milage. it burns slower in the combustion chamber giving it a better resistance to knock.

Peak pressure, or the point where the pressure in the combustion chamber becomes the greatest to where it forces the piston down, thus spinning the crank, thus moving the other pistons and keeping the car running, should be around 10-20 degrees After top dead center (ATDC). Now, gasoline takes a few milliseconds to burn (approx 2-3 mS) so you fire the spark plug before the piston reaches top dead center (BTDC) so that a few mS later when the piston is on it's way down, the explosion actually occurs. Imagine pedalling a bicycle, when the pedal comes up and around you wait until it's a little bit past the top and then push down on it with your foot and it gives you propulsion. now, if you were to step on the pedal when it was already halfway through it's trip down, you wouldn't get as much power as if you stepped on it right as it passed the top mark. That's how advancing the timing gives you power. However, fire the spark plug too soon and the explosion will happen too soon happen while the piston is still on it's way up and make it hard for the piston to complete it's revolution. That's knock. at idle, we could get away with advanced timing, but as you drive, your timing is always changing, and sometimes under high load, such as wide open throttle, it'll be so advanced it'll begin to knock, which is why we use higher octane gas. This way the gasoline takes longer to burn and preventing knock by delaying the peak pressure slightly.

That said, I don't really see how a higher octane gas could give you worse gas milage. except maybe because it burns slower, it doesn't give as complete of a burn because it's doesn't have enough time to finish, and so more of it just gets wasted out the tailpipe, but that's the only thing I can think of.

This post has been edited by Rayme: Jan 20, 2008 - 10:37 AM