Need help deciding if I should sell out...., How can you put up with FWD? Options

[tin_foil]

Lately I've been getting more and more into drag racing, horsepower, autox, drifting and upgrading cars in general. And sadly, my sexy little FWD GT celi just isn't cutting it. Now I'm in a decisional dilemma. For years I wanted a celica because I still think it's by far the nicest looking car of its class. When I first got my car, I had dreams of a 3s swap, and lots of exterior mods. But no matter what, racing a FWD car, no matter how much power at the crank it's got, just can't get that power to the ground well enough. I've played with the idea of an AWD conversion with the celi; I'm not at all daunted by the work, I just don't have 5 grand(+) to sink into it. For that price, I could get a 240sx shell, and drop in a RB26DETT. (that's the skyline engine for those of you that don't know) That would be an amazing car, and it would be crazy fun to drive.

Anyway, I know some of you will say stuff about how could I betray my kind. But I'm curious to hear what those of you that are really car racers and modders say? How can you put up with a celica, no matter how much power you've got under the hood? I love fantasizing about driving up to races with a kick-arse celica, half the people saying, "what's that?" and blow everyone away,(somewhat like tufy, ) but the money required to basically do a full gt4 conversion plus suspension upgrades and bolt-ons is just ridiculous... Should I just sell the black beauty and sink my money into something that can really perform amazing for cheap? Or maybe just save up for another year (maybe more), AWD convert the celica, and get a very good(with awesome handling, and looks), but not really that amazing of a performance car?

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

What kind of racing are you doing? You can't do all that you listed. You would never be able to set up a car right to handle more than one of those right. 3 things you listed, hp, drag racing, and drifting are all things better suited for RWD unless you're talking about all motor 4 cylinder class. The Celica is a great autoX car, but most don't know that. That's what I use my Celica for, and it works fine. I've got a nearly stock motor with more than enough hp. If you're looking to stop light race, buy something else. If you want to look cool and stop light race, just 3sgte swap and talk about how much better you are than everyone else on here. I have a feeling your just a streetracer, or you would know what you need to do.

[tin_foil]

no, I'm nowhere near a street racer. I didn't mean I was looking for one car that could do all those types of racing really well. I'm not that stupid. Here's what I feel based on my experience: At the moment I've got a b16 swapped CRX with bolt-ons that's getting dang fast, but of course, still can't really hold its own on the strip. I'd need it turbo'd and with slicks before that.(FWD sucks) I recently ran my 3000GT in an autox event. (not completely my car, I'm selling it next week; long story) It was fun, and the car handled fairly well, but I still don't like the feeling of my arse slipping out from behind me when I corner.(once again FWD sucks) And lastly, I've got the celica, which as you say, I realize can make a fairly decent rally or autox car with some suspension mods, but is hardly worth it because FWD STILL sucks.

My whole point is just that pretty much no matter what type of racing you do, AWD or RWD is way better. (I realize this is somewhat personal opinion and others might disagree...but nearly anyone thats actually driven all 3 types would agree with me ) So, I'm just feeling somewhat disappointed with my celica and am considering selling and getting a RWD car......or possibly a AWD conversion, but that's just SO MUCH money for what you get...

This post has been edited by tin_foil: Apr 18, 2007 - 12:42 AM

[bccentaur3]

dude you ahve stated that FWD SUCKS. Do yourself a favor and get a RWD car or AWD. I love awd cars. The only rwd car I've driven was my last car an mr2 spyder, but that was a mid engine car. Just go out and get a subura impreza wrx for like 16,000.

[j0e_p3t]

how much do you really love your celi? if its worth keeping around, do the gt-four conversion and you'll love it even more. but if its just another car to you, get something rwd or awd.

[trdproven]

yeah, its mostly about having the pride of your car no matter the cost. If I had the patience, I would do the AWD swap and take respect. Again, I love my celi but I want to lean towards a Supra. I had two older supras but they are sold already.

[OrbitalGT95]

Lately I've been getting more and more into drag racing, horsepower, autox, drifting and upgrading cars in general. And sadly, my sexy little FWD GT celi just isn't cutting it. Now I'm in a decisional dilemma. For years I wanted a celica because I still think it's by far the nicest looking car of its class. When I first got my car, I had dreams of a 3s swap, and lots of exterior mods. But no matter what, racing a FWD car, no matter how much power at the crank it's got, just can't get that power to the ground well enough. I've played with the idea of an AWD conversion with the celi; I'm not at all daunted by the work, I just don't have 5 grand(+) to sink into it. For that price, I could get a 240sx shell, and drop in a RB26DETT. (that's the skyline engine for those of you that don't know) That would be an amazing car, and it would be crazy fun to drive.

Anyway, I know some of you will say stuff about how could I betray my kind. But I'm curious to hear what those of you that are really car racers and modders say? How can you put up with a celica, no matter how much power you've got under the hood? I love fantasizing about driving up to races with a kick-arse celica, half the people saying, "what's that?" and blow everyone away,(somewhat like tufy, ) but the money required to basically do a full gt4 conversion plus suspension upgrades and bolt-ons is just ridiculous... Should I just sell the black beauty and sink my money into something that can really perform amazing for cheap? Or maybe just save up for another year (maybe more), AWD convert the celica, and get a very good(with awesome handling, and looks), but not really that amazing of a performance car?

s14 rb25 owner here. First off, i mean no disrespect. but do have any idea how hard it is to swap an rb25, let alone an rb26 into a S chaise. There is more custom fabrication involved in that swap then converting your celica to awd. Not even considering price here and finding a rust free chaise anyway. My advice...stick with your celica, 240's and drifting is sooo stupid anyway. If you want an a modified 240, buy one that already modified...like mine, 10k take her

This post has been edited by OrbitalGT95: Apr 18, 2007 - 11:26 AM

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

If you really think that FWD sucks, then you don't know how to drive it. Make things easier on yourself and just get an AWD car. With a FWD you can enter a turn faster and most allow for sigificant wieght savings and flexability with tires. With drag racing, the FWD and the RWD are pretty close to each other. AWD is the one with the handy cap, unless your talking street cars. AWD is limiting on tires you can run with 2 diffs. RWD doesn't hook up on ralley, and there aren't many cars out there that are RWD and technologicly advanced and cheap at the same time. FWD has it's handy caps, but most are just due to impropper set up and people not knowing to drive them properly. But, driving a FWD is hard. I hope to one day master it myself.

[purplegt4]

get a motorcycle.

[macavely]

well it seams like you know what you want. If the only thing right now that is keeping you in a celi is its looks, then your not going to have fun with that car at the track. If you can get your hands on another car that more fund to drive and is easier to modify then I say jump ship. I love my GT sure it not my daily driver anymore and my mom is using it more to go to work in the morning. But I know what i want out of it in the future. And it's not going to be a track car. It will be a street machine.

So go with a EVO , STi , 350Z. Mustang .. something that you can take to the track and get crazy HP out of alot easier then at Celica...

[99GT]

I've always had awd dsms for the longest time... and have been towed plenty of times haha. Towing is expensive for awd. My .02.

Go with an mr2...

[macavely]

My whole point is just that pretty much no matter what type of racing you do, AWD or RWD is way better. (I realize this is somewhat personal opinion and others might disagree...but nearly anyone thats actually driven all 3 types would agree with me ) So, I'm just feeling somewhat disappointed with my celica and am considering selling and getting a RWD car......or possibly a AWD conversion, but that's just SO MUCH money for what you get...

I just have to say to that.. I'm one of those people that have been behind the wheel of all three.. they all have their advantages and disadvantages.. the issue with all of them is the driver a good drive will never say one type of car suck. he or she would just fine a way to use the advantages of the car to its full potential. doesn't seam like your doing that with your celi..

[Jeremiah]

get a motorcycle.

x2

I'm not sure what you're really asking here. It sounds like you're very unhappy with your setup.

1) Understand the Celica's advantages and limitations. It's pretty, but heavy with very little aftermarket support (especially for go-fast parts). In other words - for the same ammount of $$$, you'll go faster in a different car. The Celica is a good looking car, and you can have fun driving fast in it. But, if winning races is more important to you than how you look going across the finish line, the Celica's not for you.

2) Decide what kind of racing you want to do, and how extreme you want to get. As a general rule of thumb, the more extreme your ride is, the shorter lifespan it's going to have - and the worse it's going to behave on the street.

3) Match the vehicle you want to your type of driving you want to do. If you choose to drag race, the Celica's going to be a pig - it's heavy, and weight KILLS you in drag racing. Boost your b16, and use that. If you go Autox - learn how to drive FWD better. FWD takes the most skill in autoX. Hone those skills, and you might be supprised at how much speed you can carry through the turns. Ralley - the ONLY way to fly is AWD. Drifting is stupid, but if you have your heart set on it get a RWD. I think the 240sx is over rated, and WAY over priced.

4) If you just want to go fast - spend $4000 on a used motorcycle, $1000 on gear (you will go down, and you'll want good gear when you do). You'll go faster than just about anything on 4 wheels. You'll save $$$ at the pump too.

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

I just have to say to that.. I'm one of those people that have been behind the wheel of all three.. they all have their advantages and disadvantages.. the issue with all of them is the driver a good drive will never say one type of car suck. he or she would just fine a way to use the advantages of the car to its full potential. doesn't seam like your doing that with your celi..

Can I get an AMEN?

I've got a buddy with a 240sx with a SR20DET swap, and he thinks it's great and he's so fast. Well, from stop light to stop light, he can out run me if he shifts right. But any other racing and I would stomp his ass. He's spending laods of money on parts for that thing, and he doesn't even know were the local track is. He just wants it for bragging rights. He's a good guy, but his methidology is a little off. And I'm getting really sick of people who do stuff like he's doing going around talking about how much FWD sucks because they have no idea what they are talking about. I'll try to make this my last post here. I just had one of my buttons pressed and it seems to irritate me everytime I open this thread.

[jgreening]

FWD sucks.

Look at the sports cars that are on the market today - the ones that you dream about. 90% are RWD and the other 10% are AWD. How many are FWD? None. Do you know why? Because FWD is designed for safety for the average driver in snow and rain conditions. Nothing else. While its kinda cool to make a FWD car fast, there are many distinctions that make fast RWD cars better. Traction, Power Oversteer, No Torquesteer, Easier to prevent understeer, etc. These things make incredible differences in how fun the car is to drive. (my $.02)

[96bluevert]

I just have to say to that.. I'm one of those people that have been behind the wheel of all three.. they all have their advantages and disadvantages.. the issue with all of them is the driver a good drive will never say one type of car suck. he or she would just fine a way to use the advantages of the car to its full potential. doesn't seam like your doing that with your celi..

Can I get an AMEN?

I've got a buddy with a 240sx with a SR20DET swap, and he thinks it's great and he's so fast. Well, from stop light to stop light, he can out run me if he shifts right. But any other racing and I would stomp his ass. He's spending laods of money on parts for that thing, and he doesn't even know were the local track is. He just wants it for bragging rights. He's a good guy, but his methidology is a little off. And I'm getting really sick of people who do stuff like he's doing going around talking about how much FWD sucks because they have no idea what they are talking about. I'll try to make this my last post here. I just had one of my buttons pressed and it seems to irritate me everytime I open this thread.

Amen!

seriously, I used to have a 240sx, and as fun as RWD can be. my FWD Celica handles soo much better

[OrbitalGT95]

I need to stay outa this thread before i get into trouble lol

[Ratix240sx]

I just have to say to that.. I'm one of those people that have been behind the wheel of all three.. they all have their advantages and disadvantages.. the issue with all of them is the driver a good drive will never say one type of car suck. he or she would just fine a way to use the advantages of the car to its full potential. doesn't seam like your doing that with your celi..

Can I get an AMEN?

I've got a buddy with a 240sx with a SR20DET swap, and he thinks it's great and he's so fast. Well, from stop light to stop light, he can out run me if he shifts right. But any other racing and I would stomp his ass. He's spending laods of money on parts for that thing, and he doesn't even know were the local track is. He just wants it for bragging rights. He's a good guy, but his methidology is a little off. And I'm getting really sick of people who do stuff like he's doing going around talking about how much FWD sucks because they have no idea what they are talking about. I'll try to make this my last post here. I just had one of my buttons pressed and it seems to irritate me everytime I open this thread.

Amen!

seriously, I used to have a 240sx, and as fun as RWD can be. my FWD Celica handles soo much better

Really, I think my girlfriends celica handles like a boat. I think 240 handles way better and plus it has a greater turning radius.

I'm building an NA Ka24de at the moment, I don't think parts are too expensive. You just have to shop around.

[tin_foil]

Wow...look at the argument I started.

Okay, first off, let me say, a debate about FWD vs. RWD vs. AWD was not what I originally intended. I honestly figured nearly everyone was in agreement about the merits of RWD and AWD. It now becomes clear that some people do not have the experience to know any better, as illustrated by these comments:

seriously, I used to have a 240sx, and as fun as RWD can be. my FWD Celica handles soo much better

I've got a buddy with a 240sx with a SR20DET swap, and he thinks it's great and he's so fast. Well, from stop light to stop light, he can out run me if he shifts right. But any other racing and I would stomp his ass.

When someone says, "my celica handles better than a 240", or "my celica beats my friends sr20 240." it means nothing. Personal testimonies don't mean much with cars. Anyone can say anything, or have had an unusual experience. But here's some facts for you all that may change your opinions a little:

Here's the technical specs of a 1998 240sx, and a 1998 celica. I hate to admit it, but the 240 is better than the celica in nearly all handling, performance and aerodynamic specs. The 240 is known for its tight cornering and responsive handling.
http://www.automobilemag.com/am/1998/nissa...ifications.html
http://www.automobilemag.com/am/1998/toyot...ifications.html

Here's info on the sr20det:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_SR20DET#Engine_Specs
We're talking an engine that has about 60 more hp, and 55 more fl-lbs torque than a celica in a car thats about 250lbs heavier and RWD. Somehow I doubt a celica could beat that in every way.

Okay, now on to the discussion of drive train. I realize that there will always be some amount of preference in what each person LIKES to drive, but there are some facts that every car enthusiast should know. Comments like this simply show lack of knowledge:

With drag racing, the FWD and the RWD are pretty close to each other. AWD is the one with the handy cap, unless your talking street cars. AWD is limiting on tires you can run with 2 diffs. RWD doesn't hook up on ralley, and there aren't many cars out there that are RWD and technologicly advanced and cheap at the same time.

But you don't need to blindly believe me. Here’s plenty of articles for you all:

Here’s a site explaining oversteer, understeer and the merits/flaws of RWD, FWD, AWD. (GREAT article, once again, stuff every car enthusiast should know):
http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/h..._handling_5.htm

Here’s an entry discussing torque steer. (a FWD-only problem)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque_steer

Nothing official here, but just a couple of forum discussions about different drive trains:
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13620
http://forum.ebaumsworld.com/archive/index.php/t-25048.html

A short article explaining traction benefits of different drive trains:
http://www.familycar.com/nextcar/Step3.htm

Well I hope you all learned something, especially bigmeanbulldog. In case you didn’t want to read the articles, I’ll just say that here’s someone who actually knows what they’re talking about:

Because FWD is designed for safety for the average driver in snow and rain conditions. Nothing else. While its kinda cool to make a FWD car fast, there are many distinctions that make fast RWD cars better. Traction, Power Oversteer, No Torquesteer, Easier to prevent understeer, etc.

Once again I will say, I realize that PREFERENCE is an individual thing, but these are simply the facts regarding FWD.

And now I can finally get on to my real point of the thread. I was really just wanting to hear the opinions of you 3s swappers, and those of you that REALLY race.(meaning on a track) Do you think it's worth it? Of course you love the celica, but how do you feel about the fact that after all that money, it’s really not amazing at any type of racing? (good at autox, I admit, but the money could have been spent better on a different car)

In conclusion, I hope I didn't offend anyone. Like I said, I didn't mean to start an argument, but it's hard for me to bite my tongue when people post BS regarding car info.

This post has been edited by tin_foil: Apr 24, 2007 - 1:50 PM

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

You can say whatever you want about how the cars look on paper and what not, but don't call me ignorant. I've raced, and I've raced a lot. I'm newer into autox, but I've been on the drag strip and dirt track for years. A car on paper is simply that, a car on paper. Look at the Mini Cooper, it looks really bad on paper. But the thing rules. That's just how some stuff is. I understand this is the internet and personal testimonies don't mean jack crap on here, but I know what I know. Jay, you say that FWD sucks and no "dream cars" are FWD. Show me a STS capable RWD car besides the 240sx. Look at the number of race cars out there and find out exactly how many are FWD and how many are RWD. Obviously you won't see any FWD Skylines or Mustangs, but they aren't the only "race" cars out there. The SRT-4, RSX-S, Integra R, Sentra SE-R, Civic Si, and the Celica amongst others have more than proven themselves out there. Jay, you're a smart guy, I just think you’re a little off on this one. Tin_Foil, **** you, man. You're an idiot.

[96bluevert]

You can say whatever you want about how the cars look on paper and what not....A car on paper is simply that, a car on paper. Look at the Mini Cooper, it looks really bad on paper. But the thing rules. That's just how some stuff is. I understand this is the internet and personal testimonies don't mean jack crap on here, but I know what I know.

Thank You! That's exactly it! People tend to look at only the facts and judge from there. They think that just because a car's 0-60 time is better or the track time is better on one car that automatically that car is the best out of the two. Though, untill you actually drive each one to make your own comparison you shouldn't be so quick to judge. I mean i'd expect most people on a Celica site would be able to relate to that because in the minds of a lot of people, celicas are pretty slow, but most of us on here do know the potential of and what these cars can really do. I know some of you will dissagree, and that's cool. even if two people drive the same two cars there CAN be different opinions, but it's all personal prefference. I mean i'm not trying to argue with anyone, i respect that people do make thier own comparrisons, and if theier different than mine, that's cool too..

ok, sorry just had to get that out.

[tin_foil]

Look at the Mini Cooper, it looks really bad on paper. But the thing rules.

Hmmm…
Mini Cooper S specs*:
Turbocharged 1.6L Inline 4
175 hp @ 5500 rpm
177(+15 during overboost) ft-lbs @ 1600 rpm ←(holy crap)
Compression Ratio: 10.5:1
Curb weight: 2668 lbs.
0 – 60 mph. 6.7 sec.
*If you want to see the thing get disgustingly fast, check out the JCW tuning kit.

That don’t look so bad to me…

Look at the number of race cars out there and find out exactly how many are FWD and how many are RWD. Obviously you won't see any FWD Skylines or Mustangs, but they aren't the only "race" cars out there. The SRT-4, RSX-S, Integra R, Sentra SE-R, Civic Si, and the Celica amongst others have more than proven themselves out there.

Alrightly, here’s my list: (sorry if I missed a few, it was thrown together hastily)
FWD:
RSX-X
Civic
Celica
Sentra SE-R
GTI
Corrado VR-6
Eclipse
3000GT(Stealth)
Neon SRT-4
Mini Cooper
Cobalt SS
Tiburon
Integra R(virtually a civic)

RWD:
S2000
M3
Elise
Boxster
Miata
240sx
300zx
350z
RX-7
RX-8
MR2
Supra
Corvette
Mustang
Firebird
Camaro
Viper
GS430
NSX
GTO

AWD:
EVO
WRX STi
Talon
911(some RWD)
A4
3000GT VR-4
Skyline
TT

Well, I definitely see a tread...it seems that in general the nicest, fastest, most expensive sport and racing cars are all RWD or AWD, and pretty much dominate all types of racing.

Tin_Foil, **** you, man. You're an idiot.

Right, buddy, sorry I stepped on your toes by correcting your erroneous comments. Every post makes your inexperience more clear. I suggest you quit while you’re ahead…oh wait…never mind…

This post has been edited by tin_foil: Apr 26, 2007 - 11:42 AM

[Defgeph]

Nate, please try to relax.

[Defgeph]

Without a doubt, RWD comes out on top. Followed by AWD then FWD.

To say one sucks is completely unfair. I love my car and I'm happy with my results. This is what keeps me reaching forward for more. I know its not as good as a RWD or AWD vehicle. But its still a crap load of fun to drive.

I dont know why I just enjoy the FWD platform. I really want a k20a civic hatch. After that car is built I'd like a Supra.



Keep it clean gentlemen

[tin_foil]

Thanks defgeph. This was the sort of comments I was hoping for originally. Have you considered an AWD conversion. That wouldn't be any harder than a k20 swap. I think that's the only way I'll be able to justify keeping my celica in the long run.

Have you checked out some of the K20 swapped runs on utube...amazing stuff. Especially in a CRX.

btw, I love your celica. Gotta be one of the nicest in the states. A while ago I was considering getting some gold rims, but then I realized people would probably figure I was trying to start a defgeph fan club.

[macavely]

FWD sucks.

Look at the sports cars that are on the market today - the ones that you dream about. 90% are RWD and the other 10% are AWD. How many are FWD? None. Do you know why? Because FWD is designed for safety for the average driver in snow and rain conditions. Nothing else. While its kinda cool to make a FWD car fast, there are many distinctions that make fast RWD cars better. Traction, Power Oversteer, No Torquesteer, Easier to prevent understeer, etc. These things make incredible differences in how fun the car is to drive. (my $.02)

One car i dream about and would love to have VW GTi ....


Sure i love to take a corner in a rwd sports coupe.. and love even more to rip the line in an awd... and fwd i just love it cause i have fun making bad drivers in better preforming cars feel like crap ..

but to anyone that owns a celi and think FWD suck .. my question to you is . why did you get a FWD car ??

[OrbitalGT95]

when it all comes down to it...a pro driver would rather choose awd and rwd over fwd, there is simply to many limitations like why power, steer and brake with the same wheels...its pointless and severely takes away from the car. No disrespect to the fwd drivers. If you can master it, more power to you, but honestly lets admit it, fwd has major draw backs and I honestly feel that anyone that says fwd doesn't, has not been consistently been behind the wheel of a tuned rwd or awd car

[Defgeph]

Thanks Tin!

I have gone back and forth many times with the AWD conversion. I would love to do it. But, I dont have the confidence in myself to do the AWD conversion. I'd like everything to be square and correct in the rear end. I've seen a conversion in person. It looks easy but also looks very hard at the same time. Man am I torn.

Then I say...
"Maybe when I get fed up with traction issues after a turbo upgrade. I'll push myself over that long expensive edge". After I'm done saying that I say "If I'm going to blow that kind of money I'll just save for a Supra".


Youtube rocks. Have you seen Hasport's K20 crx ? They had to cut out a rectangle in the hood to fit the engine. What an awesome car.

It comes down to someones taste. Some prefer bodystyle, some prefer drivetrains, some prefer power deliveries. I always ask the question, what will make you happy ? If its a high horse power FWD go for it. If its a RWD go for it. AWD go for it.

Whatever it is you want, get it. You only live once.

[mikeismad0408]

hmm, lets see, you take your 240 on paper and you take a 99 gt on paper and then you shred them, because paper is nothing but paper, horsepower means nothing. sure it gives you something to brag about, i have seen v6 accords around here that cant keep up with my fwd celica. yes i know the accord is fwd as well but numbers mean nothing on the street. you tune your suspension right and fwd can take autox over any rwd car all day long. if you wish to "sell out" as you say by going rwd you do that, but remember...my celica looks better than your 240 any day

[Jeremiah]

Personal testimonies don't mean much with cars. Anyone can say anything, or have had an unusual experience.

O-RLY? Then why'd you solicit opinions on a FORUM?

But I'm curious to hear what those of you that are really car racers and modders say? How can you put up with a celica, no matter how much power you've got under the hood?

But, since you asked...

On the rare occasion I find myself on a track with my Celica, it's 'cause I want to improve my driving skills. I'm not interested in winning races - I have a motorcycle for that. It'll lap your over rated 240SX any day, and cost me 1/2 as much to buy & maintain. Oh - and chicks dig bikes more than 240's

I know my car isn't the fastest out there. I know if I spend $4000 in an engine swap, there's dozens of $4000 vehicles that will kick my ass in various types of racing. I "put up with it" because it's a car that fits me, my driving style, I think it looks fantastic, and it's way more reliable than a Nissan (JD power and associates rated the Celica "most reliable" more than any other car made... ever).

[jgreening]

Without a doubt, RWD comes out on top. Followed by AWD then FWD.

To say one sucks is completely unfair.

I agree with this. Its all relative and based on personal opinion. However, the objective reasons that I listed seem pretty compelling to me. As one of the two 3s swappers contributing to this thread, I feel qualified to give an opinion to the OP's question. When you ask: "Is it worth it?" I interpret that to mean: "Hey 3s swappers, if you had to do it over and your goal was to build a 2800lb car with 250WHP, would you rather have a RWD platform for performance reasons. I answer that question, with a resounding "YES!!!!"

[95st-celica]

i saw we make a car with power to the front right wheel and the left back one..or power to the right side or the left side..ahhha comeon that would be awesome!!!!

[Jeremiah]

"Hey 3s swappers, if you had to do it over and your goal was to build a 2800lb car with 250WHP, would you rather have a RWD platform for performance reasons. I answer that question, with a resounding "YES!!!!"

For what it's worth, the more I read, the more I see the "magic number" seems to be 200 HP @ wheel max for FWD before it's "too much". Much more than that is a waste (this will vary slightly from car to car of course).

[Defgeph]

Last dyno was at 245 whp. Its in no way to much. Right now, I want more and more.

I think the magic number should be moved up to 350 whp in a FWD. Of course throttle control comes into play at these numbers. You can't expect to stomp on the gas and not brake loose.

Itchy should be hitting around that number right now. I'm still waiting to see the full tune & higher boost. But it looks very promising as of right now.

[macavely]

"Hey 3s swappers, if you had to do it over and your goal was to build a 2800lb car with 250WHP, would you rather have a RWD platform for performance reasons. I answer that question, with a resounding "YES!!!!"

For what it's worth, the more I read, the more I see the "magic number" seems to be 200 HP @ wheel max for FWD before it's "too much". Much more than that is a waste (this will vary slightly from car to car of course).

I have seen and been behind the wheel of FWD car cars with 300WHP and did not feel like Too Much Power..

Her is a list a some of those cars..

VW GTi
Honda CRX Si
Scion tC
Dodge Srt-4
Mitsubishi Eclipse GS-t
Honda Prelude Si

[97lestyousay]

Traction issues = weight issues
Lets go back a few years.
455 Olds Tornado.... beat that with a rear wheel anything on
a flat dirt track. As for selling out, who cares.
Do what you want, last time I checked you don't need a
forums permission to change vehicles. If you are asking
opinions on what to purchase, start a poll IN OFFTOPIC!!
I keep my car because I love it, no other reason.

[cjh4l22]

no blame, i nearly bought a 95 240sx w/a modded ka24det... but bought the celi anyway, lol

[j0e_p3t]

"Hey 3s swappers, if you had to do it over and your goal was to build a 2800lb car with 250WHP, would you rather have a RWD platform for performance reasons. I answer that question, with a resounding "YES!!!!"

For what it's worth, the more I read, the more I see the "magic number" seems to be 200 HP @ wheel max for FWD before it's "too much". Much more than that is a waste (this will vary slightly from car to car of course).

I have seen and been behind the wheel of FWD car cars with 300WHP and did not feel like Too Much Power..

Her is a list a some of those cars..

VW GTi
Honda CRX Si
Scion tC
Dodge Srt-4
Mitsubishi Eclipse GS-t
Honda Prelude Si

add a rsx type-s to that list. i've driven my friend's and its crazy fast. they're like what, 225 hp stock at the crank and still handles great. didn't seem like too much when i drove it. and a lot of newer fwd cars come with 250+ hp v6's and what-not. still not as great as rwd or awd, but i think a lot of people don't give fwd cars enough credit. not to mention the drivers that know how to handle them.

This post has been edited by j0e_p3t: Apr 27, 2007 - 12:47 AM

[97lestyousay]

I was somewhat vague in my previous statment.
Weight issues = Traction issues

I think everyone understands weight transfer and how it
effects traction. In a low traction situation where transfer
is not a factor FWD will prevail over RWD always. It is simple
physics, the weight is already there. (MR doesn't fall into RWD class)
I have owned a couple 400+hp trucks and had as many traction
issues as most higher hp FWD cars seem to, the transfer is there,
the weight is not. As far as FWD sucking it depends more on what
you want than anything. I personally think FWD does it all as good
or better than any other platform. I think this discussion is a good one,
it just has very little to do with the original topic or the 6gc which is what
this particular forum is about.

[Jeremiah]

I wonder if the heavier weight of our cars is actually an "advantage" in keeping some of the power on the ground... instead of getting lost in wheel spin? I think most of us are also running after market tires / wheels that give us better traction.

[tomazws]

The only RWD car I've driven is my old 92' Toyota Pickup truck. I don't know if it's even a valid comparison... But I do like the accelaration on the 92' pickup truck more than my current Celica.

[Jeremiah]

I re-read some of those articles...

Looks like they were referring to turning... said the barrier is typically around 200 HP before experiencing bad under steer - whoops

"typical" varies from car to car, wheel to wheel, turn to turn, tire to tire, driver to driver.... so, we may have guys here that can get well past 200 HP and still hold their lines?!?!

[lagos]

Last dyno was at 245 whp. Its in no way to much. Right now, I want more and more.

I think the magic number should be moved up to 350 whp in a FWD. Of course throttle control comes into play at these numbers. You can't expect to stomp on the gas and not brake loose.

Itchy should be hitting around that number right now. I'm still waiting to see the full tune & higher boost. But it looks very promising as of right now.

2x

im at 247hp 270tq at the wheels and i feel like i want MORE POWER. sure i can break the tires loose if i want to or get some torque steer... but a lot of that stuff is what makes the celica fun on the street. i remember watching the vid of jeff smoking tires through 1st and 2nd gear on a slightly wet road, and thinking, "HELL YEAH MAN", instead of saying "look at that terrible traction loss of the fwd paltform". now dont get me wrong, there does come a point where your making too much power for it to become useful, but like jeff said, i think thats somwhere around the 350+ range. your traction in the 200-300hp range can all be controlled by your right foot, a boost controller, and some good street tires.

now having said that, my next car will probably be awd. why? because i plan to go above that 350hp range.

[Defgeph]

Two things I want to add here.

My handling characteristics are different than other 3s swappers, I don't have power steering. So I don't experience as much torque steer as others. Tires breaking loose should be about the same. Just a matter of what tire you are running. I am definately not running the right set of tires. Soon this will change.

Second thing, I know a person who had a 6th gen. He bought a clip, started the swap. He then stopped in the begining and sold everything to buy a 240SX. One year later I find out he sold the 240 and bought a brand new SRT4. So he has the SRT4 which he loves. Which is a nice car, very quick on the street. This person still has love for the 6th gen, and will one day buy another one and do the 3s swap.

I dont think people should have this fear of FWD. With the right planning, you can almost completely overcome this hurdle. It just takes money, time, & patience.

[Defgeph]

i remember watching the vid of jeff smoking tires through 1st and 2nd gear on a slightly wet road, and thinking, "HELL YEAH MAN", instead of saying "look at that terrible traction loss of the fwd paltform".

That was second gear only playboy.

The blow off you hear in the video is throttle control, I never shifted. Until the end, when I took off. I was trying to keep the car from pulling away. That obviously didnt work.


I agree with your statements above

This post has been edited by defgeph: Apr 27, 2007 - 7:23 PM

[lagos]

post up a link to the vid! haha


i guess the basic point here is this:
rwd and awd cars are better then fwd. there is no doubt about it. however the fwd platform is far from worthless. go watch some srt4 or very built honda videos on streetfire to see just how fun fwd can be.

[Defgeph]

post up a link to the vid! haha

word up



I can't wait to do another one this year.