Understeer... it sucks!, bad point about the 6gc Options

[SiKBOY]

Does anyone know how to reduce the understeer in the 6gc? I've lowered it with shocks, thicker front and rear sway bars and I have 2 strut bars but I am still getting a lot of understeer and I really hate it!.
I heard that getting a thicker rear sway bar might help. Does anyone know anything about this?

[BlackSTX]

I think it's just a characteristic of front-wheel drive.

[GeEkBoY]

yeah, a thicker sway bar in the rear will help. Try increasing the pressure in the rear tires as well. The stiffer rear sway bar will help load up the rear outside tire in a corner and the higher pressure will help it break loose a little sooner. (autocrosser freind recommended this). Do not upgrade the front sway or that will negate the effects of the rear stiffer one. You could try camber plates, but I would take it to a shop for tuning something of that caliber.

good luck

[macavely]

dont you mean oversteer? i alway thought front wheel drive cars have oversteer problems and rearwheel driver cars have under steer problem?

[kuya1284]

QUOTE (macavely @ Aug 4, 2003 - 1:57 PM)

dont you mean oversteer? i alway thought front wheel drive cars have oversteer problems and rearwheel driver cars have under steer problem?

No, he's right. You have it backwards Mac. FWD tends to understeer with WOT, while RWD will oversteer (then almost instantly understeer) with WOT.

This post has been edited by kuya1284: Aug 4, 2003 - 5:03 PM

[kuya1284]

QUOTE (SiKBOY @ Aug 4, 2003 - 6:14 AM)

Does anyone know how to reduce the understeer in the 6gc? I've lowered it with shocks, thicker front and rear sway bars and I have 2 strut bars but I am still getting a lot of understeer and I really hate it!. I heard that getting a thicker rear sway bar might help. Does anyone know anything about this?

Can you explain what it is you are doing that's causing you to understeer? Are you experiencing this while attempting to corner?

[SiKBOY]

QUOTE (GeEkBoY @ Aug 5, 2003 - 6:46 AM)

yeah, a thicker sway bar in the rear will help. Try increasing the pressure in the rear tires as well. The stiffer rear sway bar will help load up the rear outside tire in a corner and the higher pressure will help it break loose a little sooner. (autocrosser freind recommended this). Do not upgrade the front sway or that will negate the effects of the rear stiffer one. You could try camber plates, but I would take it to a shop for tuning something of that caliber. good luck

My wheel pressure is set at 40PSI on both front and back. I have 17X7's with 215/40 tires. Do you suggest that I raise the rear tires even more? On the track I put the front tires up higher than the rears.

Kuya, I get understeer comming out of roundabouts (I dont know if you have them in the states) and sharp turns. I think I might be going into the corner too hot or powering too early. I thought that all Celica's have an understeer problem. Even in my old 5th Gen I had major understeer. Maybe its my driving style.

Also I am running Falken Ziex 326's. They are a pretty cheap tire so it probably has some kind of affect on road grip.

[GeEkBoY]

when you have a higher than normal tire pressure, you loose some grip with the tire, the tradeoff is incresead body roll. Your rears should be maxed out to the recomendations for the tire. Play around with the fronts, but since you only have 40 series tires, it is not going to make a big difference.

with understeer, the front tires are breaking loose before the rear, the way to reduce this is to increase the traction in the front (or reduce it in the rear) with the goal being to balance the cars handling. If you take the car to an alignment shop that is familiar with racing and suspension they may be able to tune the suspension a little more towards a track setup, however the cruising handling may suffer.

btw, K-mac does not show a sway bar for out car. Do they still make it or is it discontinued?

[SiKBOY]

I just had my front wheels aligned the other day. He said that it was toed in 1degree. I had a real hard time getting on the alignment machine because my car is lowered with a kit so I kind of dont want to do it again and they only took the time to get some ramps and blocks out to get my car up because it was a slow day.

So the fronts should be have a little less pressure in them? I always thought that since the car is heavier in the front and lighter in the back and that the fronts should be pumped up more and less at the back. I understand your reasoning with the surface area of tires increase as pressure in the tires decrease. I guess I'll have to muck around with the pressures a little bit till I'm happy.

I got the sways put in a few years back by K-mac. I think that they make the bars on the spot. They had my car for 1 day and I picked it up in the evening. I am very happy with the sway bars and for the money, its the best mod for handling that I have spent. (better than shocks and springs)

I might ask them to make a thicker sway bar for the rear but someone told me that if its too thick, I'll start to lose the tail end easier and once that happens its pretty damn hard to get back on a front wheel drive car.

[SpedToe169]

You'll almost always want to run higher pressures in the front on a FWD car. There are are few types of tire carcass that dont follow this, but very few. What actual pressures you run will vary depending on the tire. If you're autoxing it is permissable to inflate tires slightly over their recomended max pressure.

The understeer could be caused by a lot of things. The first and most important is alignment. You should try to get all the negative camber you can in the front of the car and slightly less in the rear. Toe should be 0 all around for street use. You can run a little front toe out on the track to help the car turn in better. Driving style is the second most important thing. Entering a turn too hot is almost always the culprit. The old racer mantra is 'Slow in, Fast out'. Try it, it works. It is often possible to trail brake slightly once you're already at the limit to bring the rear around.

My car is set up primarily for autox so it oversteers slightly in steady state cornering. A roadrace car should be setup with a slight understeer.

[SiKBOY]

Is it possible to change the camber on the 6th Gen or do you need some camber plates like the ones that Cusco sell.

Spedtoe, if you could post up some figures of what camber the front and back should be it would help me a lot when I go and take the car for another alignment. I have the front lip off the car at the moment so its a good oportunity for me to get the alignment fixed.

[Inferno]

Good luck with getting that corrected.

[SiKBOY]

dont worry, I did a search and found it.

[SpedToe169]

There is some adjustment when stock. I have the factory camber adjustment bolts (also called 'crash bolts' becuase they're used after a car is wrecked and tweaked out of alignment). With the bolts I can get about -3deg.

A good place to start (what I'm running now) is -2deg in the front and -1.5 in the rear.

[KAMiX]

I'm not going to get technical like the rest of you, but the way I drive understeer is much safer than oversteer. I do a lot of fast hill driving, and I love the steering on our cars! I know exactly how far I can push before I lose it (and I have owned & driven RWD cars).

I will also say that I think your corner strategy is off. Try to take a 'racing line' as much as possible, and try coming into the corner a little slower in 3rd, change to 2nd a little bit before coming in through the apex of the turn pushing it hard.

I truly believe that with good technique, if our cars were RWD they wouldn't be any faster than FWD (through corners).

I am only 20 and by no means a driving master! But I do love pushing this car through bendy roads, its unreal!


I'll try to get around to getting some divx footage soon, my favorite road is sweet at night!

[SiKBOY]

I am getting a 4 wheel alignment done tomorrow and will keep you posted on how it all goes. Its just that my mate has a Clio sport and its basically stock and that thing handles pretty damn well for a stock setup without as much understeering as the Celica gives me. Im pretty sure it would my Celica through any twistys.

[Guest_Matthew_*]

sounds to me like you are experiencing TORQUE STEER

you said that during the corner you hit it hard and the car doesnt really turn that well

probably because your tires are spinning and can't get any grip.

I would say wait a second or less more to hit the throttle.

[kuya1284]

[Guest_Matthew_*]

yea i dunno


when i first got my gt i had torque steer sometimes and that was before the turbo.

on his profile he has a few mods that i would estimate his power at around 150hp or so.

maybe a little more with tuning of his S-AFC.

[SpedToe169]

Ray is right, its not torque steer at all. You need to read up on the subject some more. I'd normally try to offer some suggested reading, but I'm tired, I worked 17 hours today on the race car and I want to go to bed.

[Guest_Matthew_*]

i know what the difference is


i was just saying the MAYBE he is experiencing torque steer.

i never experienced understeer in my celica

i guess i never really raced hard on the twisties either.

and if i did, the tires would just spin from the turbo power.

[GeEkBoY]

just one other question SiKBOY

do you have a LSD?

If you do, that would significantly increase understeer.

[SiKBOY]

Thanks guys for the suggestions. I dont think i have LSD. How can you tell if you do?.

The torque in my car has been increased from the SAFC tune and when my girlfriend drove it, she said that it felt like she was driving in the rain and it felt like something was wrong with the car. I do get a bit of that automatic lane changing thing going when changing gears but not as much as some of my mates turbo cars.

I got my wheel alignment done but havent driven the car hard yet so I cant report on if it has helped with the understeer problem. I asked the guy to change the camber but he couldnt find the bolts to adjust the camber settings. Can anyone point me in the right direction? He also said that 2 degrees is quite a lot of camber and the insides of the tires would wear quite quickly. I dont know if I can trust him especially since he cant find the camber adjustment bolts

[kuya1284]

[FireinDC]

is lsd a good thing? what dose it do?

[Guest_Matthew_*]

LSD is a VERY good thing

lets say for instance that you are on a slippery surface and you hit the gas. both wheels win spin. but if you have LSD then through a series of clutches and gears it transfers the power to the wheel with the most grip. it also helps with launches with high powered FWD cars.

[SiKBOY]

Nah, I dont have LSD. Once the cv shaft popped out on one side and the car wouldnt move, even though the other side was fine.