suspension & handling Options

[dagreat1]

Ok i've heared everyone talk about how for about 2 grand you can drastically improve the handling of your vehicle... well I saved up a little more than that and I have a stock ST that I'd like to fix up in terms of handling... so what should I do? i already hav a CF hood making the car a little lighter but can anyone point me in the right direction as to what else i should look to buy or do?

[playr158]

Coilovers
Sway bars
rear strut bar
lightweight 17s, and good tires
slotted rotors and Hawk/Akebono/EBC pads

and ur good

[Shink]

Coilovers
Sway bars
rear strut bar
lightweight 17s, and good tires
slotted rotors and Hawk/Akebono/EBC pads

and ur good

Good start. But you haven't spent enough of his money, yet

Decat pipe / tuned exhaust
Cold air intake
(those working together might help throttle response a little)

Manual shift? Then how about a lightweight fly wheel?

And this one is free:

Strip out as much of the interior and sound proofing as you can handle.

Other than that, the ST is going to need a 3S-GE engine to be much quicker

[dagreat1]

haha i know i have a 3sgte in another celica.. this one is just for pure handling.... It is stick... does a light eight flywheel make a big difference?

and when u say lightweight 17's we talking about 20lbs?

[Galcobar]

Try more like 15 lbs.

[Shink]

haha i know i have a 3sgte in another celica.. this one is just for pure handling.... It is stick... does a light eight flywheel make a big difference?

and when u say lightweight 17's we talking about 20lbs?

Lightweight rims are getting lighter. These Rota Grid are 5kg (11lbs), though that might be the smaller rim. I think a good lightweight wheel is about 7kg (15lbs) now.

Haven't done it myself, but you can lose weight on the flywheel. This means that the engine has a lighter rotational mass to turn, so less inertia. This should result in slightly better transfer of torque to the wheels. Better engine acceleration means better vehicle acceleration. In other words, she should be a bit quicker and more responsive around gear changes.

This post has been edited by Shink: Dec 24, 2007 - 5:32 AM

[dagreat1]

those are nice... but who would pay the extra 60 for light weight nuts?

[6strngs]

those are nice... but who would pay the extra 60 for light weight nuts?

if you've ever held 20 lug nuts at one time, you know that the weight can add up to a couple of pounds. lightweight lug nuts might save you 1/2 a lb. per wheel, maybe more. for the average joe it's not going to make a difference, but if you're shopping for lightweight wheels and willing to spend a few hundred dollars extra to save a couple lbs. per wheel, what's $60 to save another 1/2 lb?

[playr158]

i would pay $60 for LTW nuts....rotating mass is the BEST mass to get rid of.

1/2 per wheel x 4 wheels = 2lbs now do the science for rotating mass at various speeds

its much more than a 2lbs shave!

[6strngs]

btw 1/2 lb. per wheel is just a guess, it could be more if you're going from OEM 21mm toyota mag shank lugs to lightweight splined "tuner style" lugs. heck, even just regular "tuner-style" splined lug nuts weigh a lot less than OEM toyotas.

[dagreat1]

someone told me that every pound on a wheel is actually equivilant to about 4 lbs in the car... is that true?


also i have an update... I think i was going to get this coilover kit at advance auto parts:

http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail....artNumber=40782

I really don't know where to buy and what constitutes a good sway bar.
Like is this good? and do i just need the rear?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2-REAR-Sway...sspagenameZWDVW



and where do the hell do i find rear struts for our celica

[6strngs]

someone told me that every pound on a wheel is actually equivilant to about 4 lbs in the car... is that true?


also i have an update... I think i was going to get this coilover kit at advance auto parts:

http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail....artNumber=40782

I really don't know where to buy and what constitutes a good sway bar.
Like is this good? and do i just need the rear?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2-REAR-Sway...sspagenameZWDVW



and where do the hell do i find rear struts for our celica

get a good brand name if you're getting coilovers. Tein or ground control or something of that nature. as for a sway bar, what you posted is just the sway bar end links. the only aftermarket sway bars for our cars are made by suspension techniques. and for rear struts, kyb gr2 (oem replacment) or koni yellow's are the only ones I know of. of course, if you buy a full coilover kit like tein you won't need them anyway. you can get all this stuff at www.horsepowerfreaks.com but that's probably not the cheapest place to buy it from.

EDIT: just realized that you posted eibach springs. those aren't coilovers, they're just lowering springs. they'll improve handling but not as much as a coilover kit would. if you do get those, you can find them a LOT cheaper than that too, so I wouldn't get them there.

This post has been edited by 6strngs: Jan 9, 2008 - 12:38 AM

[thespacepanda]

I hate it when companies can't keep their domains current. It's not hard.

This post has been edited by thespacepanda: Jan 8, 2008 - 11:19 PM

[dagreat1]

huh?

[jason]

coilover- tein ss 1200
shocks- koni 400
sway bars- suspension tech 300
get the beefy end links from twosrus 80
better brake pads - 60

since you have a hatch look to get a rear strut bar to stiffen that up 200

also a good alignment to more handeling specific charactaristics will help alot too, it will have you going through tires faster, but the handling will eb improved - another 80

prices are ballparked, but thats a pretty good shopping list for a noticable gain, anything else you will notice, but in my opinion wont be that great. i still roll on 18's and handeling is still awesome. i have some 16's that are for fun, but they look stupid on the car imo and the handeling gains arent worth as much as turning heads

[playr158]

coilover- tein ss 1200
shocks- koni 400
sway bars- suspension tech 300
get the beefy end links from twosrus 80
better brake pads - 60

since you have a hatch look to get a rear strut bar to stiffen that up 200

also a good alignment to more handeling specific charactaristics will help alot too, it will have you going through tires faster, but the handling will eb improved - another 80

prices are ballparked, but thats a pretty good shopping list for a noticable gain, anything else you will notice, but in my opinion wont be that great. i still roll on 18's and handeling is still awesome. i have some 16's that are for fun, but they look stupid on the car imo and the handeling gains arent worth as much as turning heads

A) if you get TEIN SS coilovers you can remove "shocks" from that list....since coilovers COME with shocks (except for ground control)
B) an alignment is a NECESSITY after performing suspension work. it will REDUCE the rate you go through tires it does not make you go through tires faster a bad alignment (ie too much toe (in/out) too much neg. camber (helps in the corners but reduces braking performance), too much caster) these things will make you go through tires FASTER.

looking cool > performance

[jdg371]

OTS Koni Yellow - 650
OTS Ground Control - 400 [Custom if you prefer, but only if you have good calculations]
ST Sway Bars
Upgraded End Links
Front Strut Bar of Choice [NO Ebay]
GT4 Rear Strut Bar or any 3PT Rear Strut Bar [NO Ebay]
16x7-7.5 with proper offset, keep them under 15LB
215/45/16 Falken Azenis 615s
Agressive Alignment. An example would be 2.6F 1.6R [on my 00 GTS]

That should improve your handling dramatically.

[playr158]

2.6f and 1.6R being -camber ?

[jdg371]

yerp. forgot to state it. thats camber and I have 0 Toe F/R

[thespacepanda]

OTS Koni Yellow - 650
OTS Ground Control - 400 [Custom if you prefer, but only if you have good calculations]
ST Sway Bars
Upgraded End Links
Front Strut Bar of Choice [NO Ebay]
GT4 Rear Strut Bar or any 3PT Rear Strut Bar [NO Ebay]
16x7-7.5 with proper offset, keep them under 15LB
215/45/16 Falken Azenis 615s
Agressive Alignment. An example would be 2.6F 1.6R [on my 00 GTS]

That should improve your handling dramatically.

??

[6strngs]

OTS Koni Yellow - 650
OTS Ground Control - 400 [Custom if you prefer, but only if you have good calculations]
ST Sway Bars
Upgraded End Links
Front Strut Bar of Choice [NO Ebay]
GT4 Rear Strut Bar or any 3PT Rear Strut Bar [NO Ebay]
16x7-7.5 with proper offset, keep them under 15LB
215/45/16 Falken Azenis 615s
Agressive Alignment. An example would be 2.6F 1.6R [on my 00 GTS]

That should improve your handling dramatically.

??

Suspension Techniques

also, if you do get an alignment with some negative camber or w/e else, rotate the tires a LOT! like every 2,000 miles, so you can squeeze every bit of life out of the tires you can. For FWD cars, the rears cross forward and the fronts go straight back.


actually the best thing to do would be to flip the tire, but you need to dismount and remount the tire for that. and most places will charge like $50 for that, maybe more if you've got bigger wheels. and if you've got assymetrical tires you can forget it. directional tires will prevent you from being able to rotate from left to right so that'll shorten the life too. of course, directional tires usually give the best handling though.

This post has been edited by 6strngs: Jan 10, 2008 - 1:11 AM

[jdg371]

My directionals only lets me rotate Front to Rear and vice versa.

[6strngs]

My directionals only lets me rotate Front to Rear and vice versa.

exactly

directional tires will prevent you from being able to rotate from left to right

assymetrical tires means it just gets mounted on the wheel with one side of the tire facing out and one side facing in. you can still rotate those fine, but they can't be flipped over. not many people actually flip their tires on occasion. spending $50 to flip the tires could just be money in your pocket towards a new set. so, unless you've got some mega expensive tires, or you work at or know someone that works at a tire shop and can get it done for free, almost nobody actually has their tires flipped occasionally. now me, I've got directional tires which prevent me from rotating side to side, and staggered sizes which prevents me from rotating front to back. but since i work at a tire shop i can flip my tires to make a left side tire into a right side one and vice versa, or I'll just rotate front to back anyway, the difference in size is negligable.

[jdg371]

I will be facing a similar dilemma, i will be running a staggered set of wheels for AUTOX 16x6.5 with 225/50 and 15x6.5 with 195/50 Potenza RE01Rs

[6strngs]

225 on a 6.5" wide wheel? I'm not sure, but I thought 225 was the widest recommended size for 7.0" wide wheels? and I assume you're putting the bigger wheels on the back? I don't know much about suspension tuning and auto-x, but I don't see how big rear tires would benefit FWD, wouldn't that just make you under steer more because the skinny front tires will lose traction quicker than the wide rear tires.

anyway, the tires I've got now are 195/50/15 in the front, and 195/55/15 in the rear. Yokohama AVS ES100's all around. I only got the staggered size cause I was getting the tires for free, 2 came off a miata, and 2 off an integra. anyway, these tires corner really good! they suck for getting traction with my 5sfte though, but I mostly equate that to moving down from 205 to 195. cornering is really really nice though. they're not expensive either. one of the cheapest you can get, but they don't last very long from what I've been told.

[thespacepanda]

If you buy your tires from Discount Tire (if you have one in the area) they will unmount and rotate directional tires for free if you have the road hazard package on the tires which is like $15 when you buy the tire. Gotta love it.

[6strngs]

If you buy your tires from Discount Tire (if you have one in the area) they will unmount and rotate directional tires for free if you have the road hazard package on the tires which is like $15 when you buy the tire. Gotta love it.

yeah, that's where I work. and I've only ever flipped a tire for a rotation once and it was for a big truck and we charged him like $75 for it. it's possible that they'll tell you they will, and then just rotate them front to back and tell you they flipped them. the salesman are sneaky and only care about you if you're giving them money. I could care less if a car wanted their tires flipped, I get paid by the hour, not on commission.

[thespacepanda]

I know for a fact that they've flipped tires around for me because not all my tires are the same brand and some of my rims in particular have some "battle damage". I'm OCD enough to know which rim had which tire and when I get them rotated they do remount the tires.

Kind of a tangent from what we were talking about but a question on buying new tuner lugs....

What is the thread pattern for the bolts on our cars? From what I can gather its 12x1.5mm. Can anybody confirm this?

This post has been edited by thespacepanda: Jan 11, 2008 - 7:05 PM

[dagreat1]

I work at sears so i can mount and dismount my tires for free and i'm pretty sure that for FWD all your wheels should be the same size. having bigger wheels in the back has no benefit... in fact i've been told that it is detrimental... oh and i have no idea mr. panda

oh yea and when people come in my shop and ask to do things like that when we techs are getting commision.. you better hope its a slow day or you'll be getting the "remount"

[6strngs]

I know for a fact that they've flipped tires around for me because not all my tires are the same brand and some of my rims in particular have some "battle damage". I'm OCD enough to know which rim had which tire and when I get them rotated they do remount the tires.

Kind of a tangent from what we were talking about but a question on buying new tuner lugs....

What is the thread pattern for the bolts on our cars? From what I can gather its 12x1.5mm. Can anybody confirm this?

hmm, maybe the employees at the one near you aren't as lazy as the ones I work with. anyway, yeah, it's 12x1.5mm thread pitch. just the regular standard length ones should work.

[jason]

wider tires in the back will give you more traction, the car will slide say... 80% of the time front n back with a 180 tire

and the car will slide say the same 80% of the time in the front, but now only 60% of the time in the rear. you can go a little harder with extra grip in the back, and still have good cornering characteristics in the front with the "skinnier" tires that fit the geometry better

thats my outlook on it.

[6strngs]

well, I see what you're saying, but since you have more grip in the back, when you corner hard you're front tires will lose their grip before the rear tires and you'll understeer. with grippier tires up front, and less grippy ones in the back, that would promote more oversteer, right?

[playr158]

well, I see what you're saying, but since you have more grip in the back, when you corner hard you're front tires will lose their grip before the rear tires and you'll understeer. with grippier tires up front, and less grippy ones in the back, that would promote more oversteer, right?

the wider the rear tires/skinner the front = more understeer
staggered is run on FWD for looks not for performance. RWD run staggered because well they are RWD they naturally oversteer so that can afford wider rear tires/wheels.

trying to compenstate for a staggered setup on an FWD car with softer fronts and harder rears wouldn't prove much help.

This post has been edited by playr158: Jan 15, 2008 - 10:51 AM

[jdg371]

225 on a 6.5" wide wheel? I'm not sure, but I thought 225 was the widest recommended size for 7.0" wide wheels? and I assume you're putting the bigger wheels on the back? I don't know much about suspension tuning and auto-x, but I don't see how big rear tires would benefit FWD, wouldn't that just make you under steer more because the skinny front tires will lose traction quicker than the wide rear tires.

I would actually run it vice versa. Bigger tires for the front and smaller tires in the rear. I would run the smaller tires in the rear to help with the rotation in tight turns for autocross. The wider tires is to compensate for the power that spins the tires horribly when I get to 2nd gear LIFT. At least in theory wise it works.