E153 rear mount solution, st-205 rear mount and bracket Options

[supra12big]

Hi, I have started a bunch on threads with this whole rear mount and bracekt problem, well i just recently had purchased a rear alltrac mount and bracket (st185), anyways, alot of people didn't say it would work, and told me to get a st205 mount, well here are some pics of a st185 bracket and mount and my e153 tranny (mr2), if u want to ask question just shoot, sry for bad pics

[Dr_Tweak]

So this is using an ST185 rear MOUNT AND BRACKET? What year is your Celica?

-Doc

[supra12big]

mines a 1994, it was a st orignally

[supra12big]

sratch that, i didn't even know it but that mount and bracket is a st205 one, i didn't even know that when i bought them , craziest story ever,

This post has been edited by supra12big: Dec 31, 2007 - 2:33 PM

[jason]

reguardless, glad to see you are that much closer to having a sweet car and that everything worked out!

[supra12big]

lol, i still trying figure out y my car shakes really bad when going faster,

[toyotacrazy]

lol, i still trying figure out y my car shakes really bad when going faster,

did you jack up the front end and spin the wheels over to see if the axles are binding?
BTW: that was a steal on the motor mount and bracket.

[supra12big]

umm yeah actually i don't know what u mean by binding, but i lifted them in the air, and like every rotation the engine moves a bit, whats does that mean, o and my front motor mount is shot

[presure2]

i changed the title of this thread so there is less confusion during searches.

[toyotacrazy]

umm yeah actually i don't know what u mean by binding, but i lifted them in the air, and like every rotation the engine moves a bit, whats does that mean, o and my front motor mount is shot

Was the car in neutral when you did this? If so Your axle is probably too long and binding. Did the wheel rotate smooth or kinda notchy? It should feel like the drivers side as long as its not screwed up.

[supra12big]

notchy i think, it was not like easy or anything? should i feel the diff with the drivers then the pass.

[supra12big]

also my axles have spacer things on them should i take a spacer out?

[supra12big]

o, and another thing, i think its my axles spacer things at this point, when i am making right turns at higher speeds it doesn't shake that bad, when i make lefts though its so bad

[toyotacrazy]

o, and another thing, i think its my axles spacer things at this point, when i am making right turns at higher speeds it doesn't shake that bad, when i make lefts though its so bad

the spacer is too thick. It should be about 1/2 inch wide

[supra12big]

want me to take a pic? of the passenger side one

[supra12big]

quick pics, its really cold outside, this is the passenger side axles spacers, tell me what u think i should do, i hate this shaking

[toyotacrazy]

yup, too thick. You have 2 spacers in there. mine did the same thing. Felt wobbly and noisy. You need to cut that spacer down to 1/2 inch or take it to a machine shop and see if they can make something. So you need one full spacer, and another one 1/2 inch wide. Or you can buy my car.

This post has been edited by toyotacrazy: Dec 30, 2007 - 7:54 PM

[supra12big]

can u sell me something, and also can u circle whats wrong, cause i don't know crap about this axle stuff,

[Supersprynt]

Find yourself a machine shop, and they can trim it down for you. This is what I had a local shop do.

[supra12big]

yeah i don't think its my axles, i mean it might be, but thats not what the main problem is, can someone confirm what kinda rear bracket is that?

[Batman722]

st205 bracket and mount.

[supra12big]

and that looks like its the proper way it should be sitting? cause for some reason compared to the other 3sgte swaps, my engine looks more tilted to the passenger side, plus the fact of less space between the pulleys and the side wall? which mount would be a cause of that?

[toyotacrazy]

and that looks like its the proper way it should be sitting? cause for some reason compared to the other 3sgte swaps, my engine looks more tilted to the passenger side, plus the fact of less space between the pulleys and the side wall? which mount would be a cause of that?

where do you live? This is a hard thing to diagnose without seeing the car and feeling the issue.

[supra12big]

i am acutally kinda by u, about a 1hour away, i live in farmington, MI

[presure2]

and that looks like its the proper way it should be sitting? cause for some reason compared to the other 3sgte swaps, my engine looks more tilted to the passenger side, plus the fact of less space between the pulleys and the side wall? which mount would be a cause of that?

whats your passanger side mount situation?
the front and rear mounts dont really do much for the angle of the motor, thats the 2 side mounts job.
i would bet you have a hacked up alltrac mount, and bracket, instead of the proper 5sfe mount and bracket on the passanger side.

[eggman40]

o, and another thing, i think its my axles spacer things at this point, when i am making right turns at higher speeds it doesn't shake that bad, when i make lefts though its so bad

Why dont you just get the right axle combination and ditch the spacer all together? im running a 92 e-153 tranny. Im using mr2 inners like you are, and 91 v6 camry axels. they slid right into place and ive had no problems at all. No weird noises, no poping out or anything. just a sugestion.

[supra12big]

umm, no actually i have a 5sfe passenger side mount, and yeah about the axles how much does that all cost? i really don't wanna spend alot of money, here are some more pics my mounts and how the engine is sitting, notice the one pics u can see its leaning to the pass. side, tell me what u think












doesn't my motor looked tilted to the passenger side

[supra12big]

anyone?

[toyotacrazy]

anyone?

Maybe. I need to see it in person. Take a picture further back so we can see the front fenders and engine???



This post has been edited by toyotacrazy: Jan 1, 2008 - 8:29 PM

[supra12big]

k will do that tommorow, does my tranny side mount look right?

[allblackalltrac]

Ron its Danny. Again Im not sure if the crossmember has bushings or not but if Doc says they dont then I would take his word for it.

As for the mounts again they are ST205 mounts and brackets, remoeved from a St205 Gen3 3SGTE motor - I also have the engine mount and trans bracket from the gen3 motor as well.

The front mount is normal to sit low on the bolt like that about 99% of them all do unless they are using solid crossmember bushings and solid motor mounts.

FYI the front/rear motor mount bushing inserts sold by SpeedSource are specific to the st165-st185 and will not fit a st20x front mount. The front mount on a St20x is narrower than its predececors.

As for the rear mount the SpeedSource insert will work in your application ie. st20x

How well is the mount secured to the crossmember in the rear?

Again Im not sure if you are using the proper the mounts and brackets for the engine and tranny or not but judging by the angle of your engine I would assume that something is not right in your choice of parts - if you need the ST205 ones I have them as well.

As for the axle I have an axle removed from a 1MZ manual equipped Camry, if Eggman could elaborate wether the year is of importance that would be helpful. I have compaired it with ST185 axles I have and the Camry one is longer however the spline count is more compaired to the ST185 one so Im not sure if ST20x hubs use a greater number of splines compaired to there older brothers.

[supra12big]

well, by looking at my side tranny mount, should i got ahead and pruchase the rest of your st205 ones? and also which ones do u have left?

[phattyduck]

As for the axle I have an axle removed from a 1MZ manual equipped Camry, if Eggman could elaborate wether the year is of importance that would be helpful. I have compaired it with ST185 axles I have and the Camry one is longer however the spline count is more compaired to the ST185 one so Im not sure if ST20x hubs use a greater number of splines compaired to there older brothers.

You need '88-'91 Camry V6 axles, not '92+ Camry V6 axles. I'm using complete '90 V6 Camry axles and an MR2 axle carrier with my E153 (on my '90 Camry), but your inners may need to be different to work with the width of the ST20x chassis.

From '92 up, the Camry has larger bolt pattern, wheel bearings and hub splines than the Celica.

-Charlie

[supra12big]

y don't i just get diff size spacers, i might have the axles i need, i don't know how to indetify then them though

[supra12big]

okay, i just got inserts from kirk in, heres the news, 75% of the shaking went away, at low speeds untill like 50, and i checked my driver and pass. side, and the drivers side axle is fine and does not bind, the pass side does though, so what do i need to just go replace the whole passenger side axle

[toyotacrazy]

okay, i just got inserts from kirk in, heres the news, 75% of the shaking went away, at low speeds untill like 50, and i checked my driver and pass. side, and the drivers side axle is fine and does not bind, the pass side does though, so what do i need to just go replace the whole passenger side axle

again, you need a 1/2 inch spacer and a full spacer.

[supra12big]

going to a shop to have it done, hey toyota crazy, i got my iinserts in, my engine sits a bit better now

[toyotacrazy]

going to a shop to have it done, hey toyota crazy, i got my iinserts in, my engine sits a bit better now

cool

[supra12big]

but i can't find a st205 side tranny mount, so does a gt mount work as well?

[toyotacrazy]

but i can't find a st205 side tranny mount, so does a gt mount work as well?

I have a st185. I think it will work but ask around

[supra12big]

okay, because don't the side mounts hold and make the postion of the engine? and can u tell me if thats a st mount in my pics above for the tranny side? cause i think it is

[allblackalltrac]

but i can't find a st205 side tranny mount, so does a gt mount work as well?

I have a st185. I think it will work but ask around

It wont its generation specific.

As for the passenger axle use the one phattyduck recommended, you use the MR2 carrier so you dont need a whole axle unless you are getting one from a re-man in which case it will be complete but you seperate it at the 6 bolts. I sent you an email with a link of a guy selling the tranny mount.

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

Yikes, theres alot of information being thrown out here to this poor guy thats either incorrect terminology, or just not right....



To address the mount issue first, it appears that you are using the ST205 rear mount and bracket which is perfect. GT passenger side bracket and mount work just fine, as well as your front transmission mount which can utilize either a GT or ST205 mount. No need to worry there.
Your problem lies in the drivers side transmission mount. That looks to be an ST185 mount, since you can see an area on top of the mount where the All-Trac mount support bar bolts to. THIS NEEDS TO BE A ST205 MOUNT/BRACKET COMBO INSTEAD. Change this out, and the engine will sit perfect.


To address the axle issues, let me start off with the passenger side first. Your inner looks to be an MR2 Turbo inner, so thats fine. The outer should consist of an outer axle from either an ST185 All-Trac OR an 88-91 Camry V6. Both right and left outer axle are the same on these models, and are the same for either Automatic or 5spd equipped Camrys.
You need a spacer as well. You don't need "two spacers" or "a spacer and a half". Right now, your setup has the outer axle bolted up to an EXTRA bearing race....this is the thick metal piece that the inner CV bearings move inside of. That is currently being used as a spacer on your axle, and you need to remove it and get it machined down to 1/2" at a machine shop. Make sure that you leave the tapered lip on the outside of the spacer you make so that it can sit in the cup on your inner axle. Also, you MUST have the INSIDE of the 1/2" spacer you make from the old bearing race bored out as much as possible to where you almost totally eliminate the grooves for the bearings. This will prevent any grinding on binding of the outer axle as it passes into the spacer section.

You will eventually want to make about a 1/3" spacer for the drivers side axle as well, just repeat the same method as the passenger side. You probably wont experience any short term damage from not using one, but the drivers side outer axle is at the absolute limit of its travel without one.

IMPORTANT!!!!!: You cannot use JUST a set of 88-91 outer axles without spacers. No way, no how....Eggman40, I know you suggest using this combination, but it simply is NOT correct, because the outers on the 88-91 Camry and the ST185 are identical. Check on Autozone or Advance Auto Parts websites and you will see that they use the exact same part number for both. Eggman, I have no idea how you are using just those outers, but it is downright dangerous and I would strongly advise others NOT to use this setup without using a spacer.

I had a passenger side outer literally EXPLODE on my car using just the Camry outer and no spacer. The bearings and the retaining basket exploded through the retaining hat on the axle from being over extended. I'm just lucky nobody was hurt, and I didn't blow a CV bearing into the engine block. So unless you like to risk your safety or that of others, DO NOT USE 88-91 OUTERS WITHOUT A SPACER. PLEASE!




That should fix all of your issues supra12big. Let me know if you need pictures, I'm sure several of us with spacers would be more than happy to share what photos we have.



Good luck.

This post has been edited by Silver94CelicaOwner: Jan 17, 2008 - 3:41 PM

[supra12big]

pics would be nice, how hard is it to pull apart the axles, i have some skill

[laff09]

pics would be nice, how hard is it to pull apart the axles, i have some skill

They come out easy, when and only when the splines are lined up, otherwise GL pulling on it all day.

[supra12big]

pics

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

pics would be nice, how hard is it to pull apart the axles, i have some skill

They come out easy, when and only when the splines are lined up, otherwise GL pulling on it all day.

Thats false laff09. You DON'T have to remove the inners from the transmission (two piece axle), so there are no splines to line up.....

Your axle issue lies entirely within your outer axle setup by using too large of a spacer from the extra bearing race just being bolted up. Like I said above, just remove the extra race and get it machined down to 1/2" including the lip.

[supra12big]

def gonna do it, thanks for all ur help man, how much would a shop charge to cut it down?

[eggman40]

IMPORTANT!!!!!: You cannot use JUST a set of 88-91 outer axles without spacers. No way, no how....Eggman40, I know you suggest using this combination, but it simply is NOT correct, because the outers on the 88-91 Camry and the ST185 are identical. Check on Autozone or Advance Auto Parts websites and you will see that they use the exact same part number for both. Eggman, I have no idea how you are using just those outers, but it is downright dangerous and I would strongly advise others NOT to use this setup without using a spacer.
Good luck.

Dude i know your just trying to help, but you really cant argue with results. Ive had my swap for over 2 years now running that setup and ive yet to come across any issues. I ran this set up just like Sphinx did (he's the one that advised me to do so) and we both had no issues, And he had his for much longer. He raced his car as did I. that means hard launches and high speeds with no issues. Ive driven my car long distances and have traveled at high speeds with no issues.

to be honest, i dont think there is any way to fit a spacer in between a V6 camry axle and the mr2 inner. the space for it was just right and cant imagine it fitting anymore with a spacer in there.



Maybe it was a faulty install or a faulty axle on your part but i honestly dont think you need a spacer. Because really at 2years? something should have happened at this point right?

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

Its just really strange... The physical dimensions of the ST185 outer axle and the '88-'91 Camry V6 are definately the EXACT same size...so if they are identical axles then how is it that you don't have any issues with the axle being over-extended? Its just wierd.

Oh, I forgot to mention before that I took my outer 88-91 axle and compared it side by side by an OEM Toyota ST185 outer axle from a front clip and its identical in every way. My outers are from the 88-91 Camry V6 and they were definately too short, just like the ST185 ones. Just take a look at the drivers side and you can see how over-extended even that side is..... and mind you this is with the car in the air!




My car was on the road for about a week with no spacers, and you could hear the axles making noise from the bearings rubbing against the retaining hat on the inboard CV joint the whole time. This is exactly what failed on my passenger side, you could see where the stress of the axle against the retaining hat got to be so severe that the axle shaft tore right through it and shot bearings out.

I know for an absolute fact that both axles were installed properly, everything was torqued to proper specs and the failure wasn't with the workmanship, but with the axle being torn in half from being way too short.

Since then, I have machined a 1/2" spacer for the passenger axle and a 1/3" for the drivers side and the axles are perfect now, no issues at all.






Eggman40, could you take pictures of your axle setup and post them?? I really want to come to a solid conclusion on this whole thing and see how your axles are sitting for comparison.


-Corey

[supra12big]

wow, ur axles look normal compared to how mine sit when up in the air, mine are at a way bigger dip then that, atleast 2 times as much, so i am guessing thats super bad, anyways i need to get this fixed, but could u take a pic of ur spacers, and how do they work, cause i was gonna go with eggman, he said there are other people running this and no problems, also people say the v6 camry axles are longer then the st185 axles, i have read about it in past threads, thanks for everyone helping, but i have 2 roads ahead of me, and don't know which one to take?

[supra12big]

heres a pic of eggmans setup on the passenger side,

[phattyduck]

wow, ur axles look normal compared to how mine sit when up in the air, mine are at a way bigger dip then that, atleast 2 times as much, so i am guessing thats super bad, anyways i need to get this fixed, but could u take a pic of ur spacers, and how do they work, cause i was gonna go with eggman, he said there are other people running this and no problems, also people say the v6 camry axles are longer then the st185 axles, i have read about it in past threads, thanks for everyone helping, but i have 2 roads ahead of me, and don't know which one to take?

He has coilovers, so there is not nearly as much droop in the suspension when it is up in the air. That's the difference there...

The ST185 and '88-'91 Camry have almost exactly the same track (58.3" vs. 58.1" on MSN autos), which hints that the outer axles would be the same length. The USDM 6GC is listed at 59.6", so that tells me that you want a total of 1" to 1.5" of total spacing in there for your axles split between the two sides.

I used to be under the understanding that you didn't need a spacer, but this is good evidence that you do need one...

-Charlie

PS. If anyone has an ST185 right/passenger side inner axle stub, I'm looking for one.

[supra12big]

so wait are u saying his setup needs a spacer?

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

Yea, a spacer is definately needed.

Charlie, pointing out the difference in wheelbase is a huge help.
The length of the Camry or All-Trac outers are SO close to working on our cars....it only requires a fraction of an inch more length to make it sit perfectly. However without that tiny fraction of an inch added, the whole thing is just a ticking time bomb. You'll either eat up inboard CV joints, or have the whole outer axle focibly separate from the retaining hat on the outside, which is clearly a sign that your axle is just too short.


Believe me, I'm not saying that it WONT at least drive without a spacer.....it will. But eventually the axle will be the achilles heel of the setup and give out somewhere.



Looking at eggman40's setup, that thing is extended way too much. Theres probably only a few millimeters at best between the bearings and the inside of the retaining hat that the bolts go into. A 1/2" spacer is what you need to use, ask me or anybody else using ST185 outer axles which are IDENTICAL to 88-91 Camry V6 axles and they will tell you that its the only way to do this reliably.


I have my axle out right now putting in a new axle seal on the transmission, so I'll take pictures of the axle with the spacer while its off the car. I'll also take a picture when its back in the car so you can see how big of a difference it makes.

[supra12big]

k, by looking at my pics, i hve either one of the two st185 axles, or v6 camry axles in right now, i have 2 spacers, but u said i need to get one cut down, i was wondering if u could sell me a whole completed spacer with axle, so i could just put it in, i don't know where to get spacers from also, thats y i am willing to buy everything i need off u, and just put it together myself? can u do that?

[eggman40]

thanks supra for posting for me, i didnt wanna go looking for the picture



well there you have my set up. I dont know what else to say, i went with what was proven and its worked for me, 2 years and counting. sphinx ran the same set up, and he did well. I've taken my car up into the canyons, done a few 4-5k launches, burnouts, triple digit speeds and not once had any issues with the axle. never any strange noises or bumps. The only noise that ever came from that direction was a messed up wheel bearing and that went away once i replaced it.



If i were to do the same swap again i would not run a spacer but that is just me... why would i change whats not broken?



However, dont get me wrong, im not trashing your theory whatsoever. obviously we are dealing with a motor that wassn't designed to be in our car out of the factory, so there might be some X factor that is causing mixed results. I guess we need to keep digging till we find a universal solution. I understand your concern about it eventually being an issue, but so far it has not been. When i was doing my swap, Sphinx sugested this set up because its the one he went with and had absolutely no issues with it. At the time thats all i knew so i went with it and didnt worry about it again. up to this day ive had no issues.



but as for now my setup works perfectly and i have no intention on changing it. If something ever comes up, i will let people know.

This post has been edited by eggman40: Jan 28, 2008 - 11:22 PM

[supra12big]

that seems like a perfect setup since u did have really put it to the test, also quick question, how can people see the axle being over extended?

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

I'll show you the length of my axle when I put it back in. (leaking axle seal)


For me, the universal solution to this issue is to mount the outer axle in the same range of length as what is found on the OEM application for that axle. Using a small 1/2" spacer allows it to sit just like it does in a Camry or a All-Trac, so I figure its probably the best thing to advise to others.

It's just one of those things where I figure its best to do it and be safe and not be sorry you didn't, and not stretch the axle to its absolute limits and pray for the best.



But, to each his own.



-Corey

[supra12big]

wait did u get my message, could u sell me a 1/2 inch spacer, and i can get 91 v6 camry outters and put them together myself, and i will pay u since u said u have access to a machine shop? please let me know, cause i am going all of this over break

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

Hey man, like I said in my previous PM....I really don't have the time to do this for you... nobody did it for me, and I wouldn't expect them to either.

I'm just trying to help you get this right by telling you what components are needed, but its your job to get all the parts and make it happen.



For the axle go to Advance Auto Parts, Autozone, or the like. They offer lifetime warranties on the axles, so buy from there that way you have a reciept in case something goes wrong. Its invaluable to have the ability to trade in old axles for new ones, believe me.
Axle Link:
http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductList.as...+Shaft+%2f+Axle

Any machine shop will do the machining work for you. its not like I have a divine access to the only shop that will make a spacer.

Just flip through your local Yellow Pages or search online and find a machine shop and give them a call, it only took about half hour or less for mine to be lathed down and bored out so its a quick job.
Just make sure when you remove your old axle(s) before getting the spacer made, remove the extra bearing race thats on your passenger axle now as a spacer and use that to be remachined. Then trade in your old outer axles at the auto parts store for a core exchange when you buy your new ones.

As far as the fasteners go, you should have six of the longer ones already since you already have an extra bearing race installed as a spacer. You might need to get some for the spacer on the drivers side if you use one, in which case just take one of the old bolts to a fastener supply shop and tell them you need the same bolt, only longer.

Get all those parts and you'll be set.




Eggman40, sorry if I sounded like I singled you out in this post man....I really don't mean any disrespect or anything by what I'm saying.

I understand that you and Sphinx ran that setup on your cars, but I took your advice before I did my swap and I ALSO ran that setup on my car....and it failed! Thats the point I'm trying to make ultimately. It also failed for numerous other owners who used the identical ST185 outer axle without a spacer and blew out axles over time, and found out the hard way like me. Thats why I'm being persistant that others should play it safe and use a spacer setup with their E153 hybrid axles.




-Corey

[supra12big]

k, news update, i found a shop that can do it for me, so i should be all set now, thanks

[eggman40]

Eggman40, sorry if I sounded like I singled you out in this post man....I really don't mean any disrespect or anything by what I'm saying.

I understand that you and Sphinx ran that setup on your cars, but I took your advice before I did my swap and I ALSO ran that setup on my car....and it failed! Thats the point I'm trying to make ultimately. It also failed for numerous other owners who used the identical ST185 outer axle without a spacer and blew out axles over time, and found out the hard way like me. Thats why I'm being persistant that others should play it safe and use a spacer setup with their E153 hybrid axles.

Corey

Not a problem, no disrespect taken

Like I said this swap isnt plug and play so there is always gonna be something different for everyone so I completely understand your arguement. At least supra's on his way now and people looking to do the swap will have an idea what they are in for if the opt for the e-153 tranny. Sorry my setup didnt work for you at first, its just that it had worked for me from the begining.

Glad we could keep this discusion civilized.

[supra12big]

and i am glad a shop can do my spacers for cheap

[Detatch]

Eggman40, sorry if I sounded like I singled you out in this post man....I really don't mean any disrespect or anything by what I'm saying.

I understand that you and Sphinx ran that setup on your cars, but I took your advice before I did my swap and I ALSO ran that setup on my car....and it failed! Thats the point I'm trying to make ultimately. It also failed for numerous other owners who used the identical ST185 outer axle without a spacer and blew out axles over time, and found out the hard way like me. Thats why I'm being persistant that others should play it safe and use a spacer setup with their E153 hybrid axles.

Corey

Not a problem, no disrespect taken

Like I said this swap isnt plug and play so there is always gonna be something different for everyone so I completely understand your arguement. At least supra's on his way now and people looking to do the swap will have an idea what they are in for if the opt for the e-153 tranny. Sorry my setup didnt work for you at first, its just that it had worked for me from the begining.

Glad we could keep this discusion civilized.

yea, not 100% sure i know what i'm talking about with this... but would ride height have anything to do with it?