metal in oil and now other things Options

[blckcelica95]

so i need some help on this one today my girlfriend was driving my celica, it ran fine all day until she stopped and shut the car off for 15 minutes , she gets back in and the car wont start, just cranks over. after about five minutes bam the car starts and runs fine. She get its back here and i take a look at it . its running fine no knock. purring like it always does. so i shut it off, and guess what happened 20 minutes later . wont start . so i wait about a minute try again and it starts up. so i pop the hood and start looking around to see what going on. I found that the spark plug wires had **** the bed so changed them. then i decided to change the oil. and i found metal particles in the oil.
Could these to things be related and what could be the metal in the oil. keep in mind the cars oil pressure never drops below 25 psi when running, it has no knock what so ever. and it idle at round 5-700 rpm.
it sounds to me like im chewing up a rod bearing, or main bearing, but it dosent show any other symptoms but these .
Sean

This post has been edited by blckcelica95: Mar 17, 2008 - 8:42 PM

[rjbibeau]

shouldn't it be like 40-50 psi.....someone correct me if i'm wrong

[Bitter]

what did the particles look like? tiny sparkles? flakes? chunks? shavings?

[blckcelica95]

what did the particles look like? tiny sparkles? flakes? chunks? shavings?

tiny tiny particles, i mean the there really really small . and when im driving the oil pressure does reach 40-50 psi

[rjbibeau]

when your driving it should be near 80's

[blckcelica95]

when your driving it should be near 80's

in the 80's around what rpm , i though 50 -60 was were it should be unless your getting on it

[rjbibeau]

sorry i meant to say it peaks at 80....does your oil light flicker a little bit at idle.

This post has been edited by rjbibeau: Mar 11, 2008 - 10:20 PM

[blckcelica95]

sorry i meant to say it peaks at 80....does your oil light flicker a little bit at idle.

never comes on , and my oil pressure gauge stays right at 25 psi at idle , that why im so puzzled

[Bitter]

what did the particles look like? tiny sparkles? flakes? chunks? shavings?

tiny tiny particles, i mean the there really really small . and when im driving the oil pressure does reach 40-50 psi

some metal is normal. tiny flecks and sparkles like powdered metal is not abnormal in small amounts. if its heavy gray streaks of metal powder coming out with the oil then thats bad. put a magnet to it, i bet most of it is steel from the cylinder walls which is normal. best bet is to drop the oil pan and look for a sludge at the bottom of metal powder. scrape it all out and pan it like they pan for gold. use gasoline or mineral spirits. large particles will settle to the bottom, those are what matter. powder is pretty normal.

[blckcelica95]

there was a fair amount coming out, but it was all very fine in size.

[jesterwr217]

when that happened in my old ford probe the engine was shot it ran but it eventually siezed up after a couple weeks

[blckcelica95]

so i popped the pan off this mourning, and to my surprise the pan was almost spotless, no metal at all so brought a sample of oil down to shop near me and talked with the owner. he doesn't think its anything to be worried about. he said to just put her back together fill it with regular oil and run it 1000 miles. drain it, see if it still there and if it is there could be an issue. to be sure though i want to check the clearance on the rods and main bearings. when i orginally built this motor all the clearances were within spec, so i am doubting that after 4000 miles they are already bad, when the car has never lost oil pressure. but with that being said Will i be able to check them as it sits in the car with everything attached or will it throw off the measurement of the plasti guage.
sean

This post has been edited by blckcelica95: Mar 12, 2008 - 3:41 PM

[rjbibeau]

it's fine in the car just don't move the crank of course.

[97GTinKC]

If it has only 4000 miles since re-build, I'd consider it completely normal wear particles, change it and check again in a couple thousand miles.

As for oil pressure, 80 seems high to me, you might see that when it's really cold on 1st start-up, Or you are using too heavy weight oil. either way sounds like you are activating the hi-pressure relief valve. Keep in mind; oil pressure is a measurement of RESISTANCE to flow. You could possibly be causing some of the wear particles because your oil is too thick and takes too long to get circulating well in the mornings. most engine wear happens on start-up. IIRC they call for a 5W30? Unless you set it up for extra clearance during the rebuild, If you are running a 20w50 or even a 10w40, you may be hurting more than helping. Which is why I am now running Amsoil's series 2000 0W30 synthetic along with good filters. It puts the oil light out immediately, even in cold weather. I have also noticed in the past some of the cheaper filters dont seem to have working anti-drainback valves, If it takes more than a second or 2 to turn off the oil light or move the gauge, try changing filter brands. JMHO

[speedfeen]

This happened to me once in my 6

my engine was slowly going...there were small particles in the pan then i lost 2 outta my 6 cylinders....then she jsut blew...

then there was major chunks in my pan...

although i did just read that its a re-build...im just giving my .02 on what it could be

[blckcelica95]

so i was talking to a couple people about oils and i was told that synthetics oils can become abrasive, has anyone else heard that ?

[97GTinKC]

so i was talking to a couple people about oils and i was told that synthetics oils can become abrasive, has anyone else heard that ?

No

[playr158]

synthetic oil isn't abrasive...its better at LUBRICATING (ie anti-abrasive) than dyno oil.

more than likely its breakin shavings, keep an eye on it. If it continues you want to have your rod bearings inspected, just incase bearing failure is on the horizon.

[DEATH]

so i was talking to a couple people about oils and i was told that synthetics oils can become abrasive, has anyone else heard that ?

Sounds like some more of the usual BS from haters who can't afford synthetic.

[lagos]

change your oil like the mechanic said and keep an eye on it.
even IF you had some type of mechanical problem in the making, the car should still have no problems starting up. fix your plug wires and see how things go.

[Bitter]

another thing, only 4k into a fresh engine you will have more metal in the oil because the rings are still seating into the bores, it wont be truely worn in for about another 6000 miles. yes, it really takes an engine THAT long to wear in completely. after the initial 10 to 15 thousand miles wear levels off, until then its sill seating things and wearing things into place.

[6G96GT]

Usually if it's rod bearing particles, it would be a pasty swirl in the oil and not hard tiny particles. The rod bearing metal is a babbitt metal that quickly pastes up in an engine. Sometimes there's residue in the oil pan and sometimes there is not. I would watch the oil pressure guage like a hawk though and if it starts to run low and the engine fights to stay on at idle then turn it off and DONT try to start it again...tow it before you blow the engine cause that's definitely rod bearing or bearings even.



I used to run synth. oil (and I can easily afford it, thanks) but I don't anymore...it was explained to me that first, we aren't running nascars here and second, it just allows more crap to stay in the synth. oil longer because there's more mileage between oil changes. Just get the regular oil like Castrol GTX and change faithfully every 3K.

another thing, only 4k into a fresh engine you will have more metal in the oil because the rings are still seating into the bores, it wont be truely worn in for about another 6000 miles. yes, it really takes an engine THAT long to wear in completely. after the initial 10 to 15 thousand miles wear levels off, until then its sill seating things and wearing things into place.

I would have to say the most "crucial" term for engine break-in is the first 20 miles of driving at different speeds because that's when the rings make their first chicken scratches on the cyl-walls and make the guidelines for the rest thereafter.

[Bitter]

most crucial, yes for sure. but for upto 10K miles after you'll see more metal in the oil drains than later in the engines life.

[celicast3sgte]

this is getting rediculous the rumors that are out about oils and change this change that... synthetic can hurt a brand new motor (dont believe me run a boxer engine on syn. for a while and see what happens). The reason i use the boxer motor as an example is because it will fail everytime and for the same reason. syn is too slippery for the piston rings. As for a new motor, it needs to have some metal on metal grinding to properly seat the piston rings. which is actually 95% broke in within the first 50miles (yes fifty miles). so those of u who say baby your motor for 10k miles. thats BS.

ok, aside from my rant.. you should check your oil before 1000miles, by then it could be too late. my question is you said its a rebuild, have you changed the oil on it yet since you started running the motor? if not the metal is normal. if you have, change the oil after a few hundred miles if pressure stays normal and no knocking occurs. then drain it and see whats in there.

but that is how i would go about it. the point of forums is to collect everyone's idea and formulate your own based on theirs. not to take anyone person's word as the truth. (no matter how much they assure you). myself and everyone here included.

[Bitter]

i've heard the opposite about synths and breaking engines in. what i've heard is that because the oil is more uniform it fills the cross hatches better and allows the rings more even contact. but its all really moot. engines ran fine and broke in fine before synthetic and engines have ran fine and broken in fine ON synthetic oils too. oil is pretty much oil UNLESS your engine is subjected to extremes. plenty of people who race competitively use their own blends of several oils in their cars because no one oil gives them what they want. others just dump in some mobil1 and call it a day. at the end of the day all the cars went around the track and drove home.

unless its -10 every time you start your car or unless you're turbo charged a premium conventional oil is fine. i choose to run a full syn in winter because the engine cranks easier in the extreme cold with it. in the summer i run a blend, either season i do 5k change intervals or 6 months whichever comes first. usually 6 months.

[blckcelica95]

i have changed the oil 3 time since the motor wasfirst was fired up. i have been watching the oil like a hawk turst me i dont feel like loosing all my money and time that i have put into this motor. i have been checking my oil daily and no metal (showing on the dip stick) since i changed the oil but then again it only been a few days. also the car hasnt had the issue with starting since i change the wires out .

This post has been edited by blckcelica95: Mar 17, 2008 - 6:58 PM

[blckcelica95]

so here is my newest issue and since it may have to do with a potential rob bearing failure i will put it in this section instead of forced induction. so i took my car out on Saturday night and gave her a work out . now the car has developed a hesitation (it feels like it did when hitting knock at high boost) but only when boosting the car above 7 psi but not always. Sometime it pulls like it always has. My first thought was maybe i had taken out the head gasket . nope cyl1 205 psi cyl2 207 cyl 3 205 cyl4 210. second though messed up the turbo , no abnormal play. third thought maybe its a fuel issue so switch it back to an older map to see if that fixed it, but it didn't. so i need to some ideas . also checked plug gap set to .30.

[Bitter]

so you're getting a misfire under boost., correct? what was your AFR looking like when you got the misfires?

[blckcelica95]

13-12 range i have recorded the issue on my data logger for the emange


This post has been edited by blckcelica95: Mar 17, 2008 - 7:38 PM

[97lestyousay]

so i was talking to a couple people about oils and i was told that synthetics oils can become abrasive, has anyone else heard that ?

Sounds like some more of the usual BS from haters who can't afford synthetic.

I've never heard that. I didn't have such great luck with synthetic, I switched back to castrol.
It may have been coicidence but I started going through oil fast, the 97 st motor seems notorious for that.
It may have had nothing to do with synthetic oil and may just be valve guides, but I figure why keep pouring
6 dollars in every 1500 miles pour 3 instead.

[Bitter]

13-12 range i have recorded the issue on my data logger for the emange

alright, well its not a lean or rich misfire probably. post up the logs, maybe someone can give some more insight into whats causing the misfire. if you make a separate thread link it here so i can take a look at your logs too.

[blckcelica95]

13-12 range i have recorded the issue on my data logger for the emange

alright, well its not a lean or rich misfire probably. post up the logs, maybe someone can give some more insight into whats causing the misfire. if you make a separate thread link it here so i can take a look at your logs too.

i retract my previous statement it more around 11 -10 a/f d

[Bitter]

eh, 10 to 11:1 is rich, but not soo rich it should cause misfires. hell my 7afe hits those kinds of AFR's stock NA running full tilt in the upper rpms.

you werent logging timing as well?

This post has been edited by Bitter: Mar 17, 2008 - 9:49 PM

[blckcelica95]

i will take another log tomorrow. the timing on the log dosent seem to be working becuase it showing all negative values -80 to -100+ during that boost run


This post has been edited by blckcelica95: Mar 17, 2008 - 10:09 PM

[6G96GT]

Here's some ideas...leaky ecu?? Improper A/F (do some 3rd gear pulls at the dyno...see what's going on). Are you using a reputable wideband 02 sensor for the tuning or just stock for your readings? What about a boost leak test?? You should probably go to a pro shop and have them check your oil pressure at the cyl-head and see what it's running at when under mid-high throttle.

This post has been edited by 6G96GT: Mar 20, 2008 - 8:28 PM

[blckcelica95]

Here's some ideas...leaky ecu?? Improper A/F (do some 3rd gear pulls at the dyno...see what's going on). Are you using a reputable wideband 02 sensor for the tuning or just stock for your readings? What about a boost leak test?? You should probably go to a pro shop and have them check your oil pressure at the cyl-head and see what it's running at when under mid-high throttle.

i found the problem , belevie it or not , it was my plug wires changed them out and car runs like a champ.

[Bitter]

that'll do it. under boost you need ALL of the spark power you're making to jump that gap.